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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –Juliancolton |  00:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Iron Arrow Honor Society

Iron Arrow Honor Society (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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This is a honor society for the University of Miami and is linked by that main article and the UM template. However, the only references I could find to this organization were in UM website, the student newspaper, the UM staff newspaper, and one obitutary of a member. In the 1980's, the Dept. of Education threatened to withhold Federal Funds from UM because the organization would not admit women, and Iron Arrow sued to challenge the legality of Title IX. Before the case could be considered by the US Supreme Court, the University told them they could not come back to campus without women regardless of the outcome of their court case. The case was dismissed as moot. This was a one-time event which does not warrant a separate article for Iron Arrow, and receives only brief mention in the article. (If necessary, it could be covered in Title IX or University of Miami.) There is no showing of notability beyond just this campus. While there are many worthwhile honor societies on many campuses, this one fails WP:N and WP:ORG. While the organization describes itself as UM's highest honor, it does not appear to engage in any activities which would bring it news coverage, independent of the press releases in the house organs that more members have been added. Racepacket (talk) 20:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• Keep: This organization is as notable as any other honor society. There are third party non-trivial mentions. This is more of Racepacket's lack of knowledge of the subject and disruption when it comes to the article on the University of Miami. If anything, the coverage of the court case is thorough throughout times (with quotation marks).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
• Keep: Organization was part of a major, defining Supreme Court case regarding federal funds and organizational gender integration. Widely known as highest honor of the university. MiamiDolphins3 (talk) 21:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The case was moot before it could be decided by the Supreme Court, and if coverage of the case is necessary, it could be handled by a sentence in either the Title IX or University of Miami articles. Many organizations decided to challenge Title IX in court, the only unique element here was that the University President sent a letter saying the organization would not be allowed back on campus even if they won the lawsuit, without letting in women. So it is not "a major, defining Supreme Court case", and is not even among the cases discussed in the Title IX article. Racepacket (talk) 23:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The case was prominent--and the organization is too. Absent the case, it still would not warrant deletion, just as many other listed collegiate honor societies on here do not. In fact, of all the listings in Category:Collegiate secret societies, I'd say Iron Arrow is among the most notable and inclusion-worthy. MiamiDolphins3 (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Response the case is separate from the organization and was a one-time event. There are 52 "Collegiate Secret Societies" which are different from Iron Arrow. Iron Arrow is for students, faculty and staff, while the others are student groups which (although "secret") have done things to gain notability in independent secondary sources. There are probably more than 1000 college campuses and most have some honorary societies. Few make the cut. I think this google search Miami "Iron Arrow " -Heckler -IX -Califano produces a better idea of the organization instead of the lawsuit. I could not find any reliable independent secondary source. Racepacket (talk) 05:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Also in support of inclusion, here is an entire book apparently written on Iron Arrow Honor Society: . MiamiDolphins3 (talk) 02:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Response That book does not count as a source. It was published by the Iron Arrow Society itself, so it is not independent. Amazon lists it as out-of-print, but we don't know if it was just sold to members or if the book was ever sold generally. Please see vanity press and WP:SELFPUB. Racepacket (talk) 05:56, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Response I didn't suggest the book as a source, and it isn't listed as one. But the fact that there apparently is a 170-page-plus book on the organization is further suggestion that it is a notable organization with a rich history and notability. Article should stay. MiamiDolphins3 (talk) 14:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Explanation: That is not how WP:N works. Self-published books that did not undergo the vetting of a normal publishing house cannot be used to establish notability. I have spent hours looking, but there is no media coverage of the group by the New York Times or other independent media. The 1980 lawsuit was a one-time event, WP:NTEMP. Come up with sources that meet WP:N. Racepacket (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Response An article does not need a New York Times citation to be notable. But, alas, even if it did, this has that too. MiamiDolphins3 (talk) 06:47, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Response Please show us a New York Times (or any other independent reliable media) article that covered the group, and not just the lawsuit that carries the same name as the group. The other "Collegiate Secret Societies" have met the notability criteria, this article does not. 66.173.140.100 (talk)

Not every article has such a major reference. Iron Arrow is notable because of its connections to a notable university and the fact that a case concerning it was brought to the Supreme Court. Your campaign against UMiami topics is getting tiresome, Racepacket.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 11:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• Keep primarily on the basis of the supreme court case. In general I am rather dubious about the actual notability of single-campus honor societies, but this is a special factor. DGG ( talk ) 06:57, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
• Keep: For another publication in which Iron Arrow was discussed, please see the following article in National Geographic Magazine: Nicholas, William H. with photographs by Justin Locke. “Miami’s expanding horizons,” The National Geographic Magazine vol. XCVIII, no. 5 (November 1950), pp. 561-594. (UNIUMIA (talk) 18:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC))

  Note The above !Vote is the only contribution User:UNIUMIA has made. I will go to the library and check his reference to see if it is substantial coverage. Racepacket (talk) 08:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

  Regardless of the nature of the account, UNIUMIA does provide another reference.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The National Georgraphic online archives do not go back to 1950, so a physical trip to the library is necessary to see if it is an appropriate reference. Racepacket (talk) 17:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.