Talk:2009 Honduran constitutional crisis: Difference between revisions

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			==Help with a link==
	== POV article ] ==
			In the "Zelaya’s secret return to Honduras" section, this bit "assaulted the occupants of the embassy with toxic gases and radiation," ends with an archived link that doesn't seem to work. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	"Constitutional crisis" doesn't seem neutral to me. Also, it's ]). The focus on the "Constitution" seems to imply one or two things:<br />
	# That the "crisis" was about Zelaya pushing ahead with a referendum the Supreme Court opined was unconstitutional.<br />
	# That the "crisis" was about the lack of a clear cut constitutional procedure for impeaching a president, therefore implying that ] was justified.
	Either way, it seems to divert attention from the coup, to ''justification for it.'' That's inherently POV. It takes sides.<br />
	What was ] was the coup. -- ] 22:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

	I also think this article is misnamed. It should be named 2009 Honduran Coup. Civilian Coup, Military coup, Civil-Military coup, it doesn´t matter, it was a coup, not a "constitutional crisis". ] (]) 09:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

	Here, a reference: (BBC) "Obama says Honduras Coup Illegal". <ref></ref>
	] (]) 09:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

	:Yawn. Like there hasn't been enough consensus seeking. There is a compromise, and we're all sick and tired of this being brought up again by now. --] (]) 22:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

	It also may imply that the "crisis" was about:
	# Zelaya's alleged desire to change the Constitution, so that he could run for a second term.
	# That Zelaya's alleged attempt to change the Constitution was unconstitutional.
	All of these are pro-coup.<br />The ] deflects attention from what made this ] -- the coup -- to ''justifying it.''<br />I'm not the only editor that has expressed this. -- ] 23:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

	:You certainly aren't, but then a number of other editors have, instead, expressed the idea that "coup" is POV and inappropriate, this has (as you very well known) been discussed at great lengths, and the current consensus was reached (with the intervention of a couple of administrators since we didn't really seem to be able to be civil ourselves).
	:So unless you have some novel proposal...? --] (]) 00:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

	::There has never been ] that "constitutional crisis" is not POV. -- ] 00:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

	:::No, but I'm pretty darn sure there is consensus that the current compromise is the best we could achieve for now. There are uh, like three or four archived calls for discussion to show that. Do you have anything new? If so, I'm all ears. --] (]) 00:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
	::I totally '''Agree''' with Rico. Calling it a Constitutional crisis is wrong for the reasons that he has already stated and which i'm not going to talk about any longer. I'm tired of this, and please dont leave me messages on my talk page insisting on my participation on this topic, i no longer want to deal with this] (]) 03:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
	:::Agree completely. "Crisis" is a compromise largely because a highly vocal but actually fairly small group of editors insisted that "coup" is insupportedly POV, and the rest disagreed with varying degrees of intensity but didn't want to spend eternity arguing the point. I still think a split into Coup (28 June+) and Something Else (political conflict background, including Constitutional Assembly plan) would be better, but I don't have the will, time or energy to argue it any further. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

	::::The ability of some to rewrite history -- which happens to be archived -- regarding previous discussion -- ad nauseum -- and state, unabashedly, that the title is the result of a small, vocal minority asserting undue influence, is laughable, if not completely disingenuous. I, for one, am glad to see that after all this time, the overall integrity of the article has improved, despite a great deal of bullying bluster and repeated nonsense. ] (]) 03:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


	::::: I just read this article for the first time and found it to lack a NPOV. Use of the phrase "business elite" and "working class" especially in the same sentence (or heading) evidences a clear point of view. Who is a better arbiter of the meaning of the constitution of Honduras? Supreme Court of Honduras, Congress, the country's attorney general, and the supreme electoral tribunal or random editors of this article??? The Honduran Constitution forbids reforms to the articles in the Constitution that refer to reelection of the president. Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution reads: "No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Whatever the motives of the various parties, it would seem more appropriate here to state the facts, then state to position or claims of the opposite sides equally. This article seems to take the side of the supporters of Manuel Zelaya and his supporters.] (]) 06:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


	:::::: I Object to the general thrust of the article. The title is wrong if you consider that the Congressional Research Office has found that Zalaya was removed from office legally<ref>http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/2009-002965HNRPT.pdf</ref>. But I also feel the article is following leftist biases. It is noteworthy that an indiginous military in Central America protected a democratic government with such action but that action was not an illegal military coup and the article should state that. Facts not propaganda please.Da'oud Nkrumah 03:30, 1 October 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


	:::::::First, its not a Congressional Research Office report even though Congressman Shock called it that; its a report from a Senior Foreign Law Specialist of the Law Library of Congress. Its been disowned by the CRS. Its a poor piece of scholarship and has been ripped apart by legal scholars in Honduras and the US. Second, your supposed "facts" are opinions, not facts. I support your right to express your view that the article is left leaning and biased, but point them out in a talk page item and we'll either agree with you and address them or point out where you are wrong. Like in Honduras, discussion is good, ranting is bad. So, if there are things you dislike about the tone of the article, please start a discussion about them. Thanks. ] (]) 23:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)



	===What is more notable in Honduras: changing the constitution or the military removing a president?===
	Maybe this way of looking at things might help (though i haven't yet checked the archival discussions, sorry if i'm repeating here).

	The ] was modified at least 22 times after being initially established in 1982. So the concept of modifying the constitution is not something out of the ordinary in Honduran history of the last two and a half decades. So i assume that Hondurans have been arguing heatedly about what changes to make or not make to their constitution nearly every year over this very long period, but this is the first time in the post-1979 era that the military removed a president. Which is more notable in the ]? ] (]) 22:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

	:i browsed through the archived discussions. This point seems to me to be new.
	:* the previous coup d'etat in Honduras was in 1978 by ]
	:* the 1982 Constitution was amended at least 22 times, most recently in 2005
	:Which of the two aspects of the June coup d'etat is more notable in this context? ] (]) 02:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
	::Agree, this a good point that you are making about relevancy. What some people may point out is that the Honduran consitution is not unlike other constitutions, in which it may be modified in almost all its parts. Actually it's easier to modify the Honduran constitution than the US one, which I believe is part of your point. The main difference which makes the Honduran constitution special, is that within it, it defines some articles as unchangeable. Not only that, it specifies that it is a crime to even suggest to modify them. These articles, are related to the borders, being a democratic republic and the presidential sucesion. Wether having a law that prohibits modifying itself and other laws makes sense is another thing (I personally believe is nonsense), but that's what Honduras has today. In that context none of those specific articles has ever been modified, just as long almost as Honduras had without a Coup until the recent one (my personal view). I believe there was an attempt by President Suazo in 1985 but it was unsucesful. ] (]) 01:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

	: I think it is abnormal for a constitution to say an official is '''immediately (which means even a trial not needed) removed''' even if he try to change the constitution article. However, that means the '''constitutional order''' is heavily relying on the clause of presidential office term limit, Honduras democracy cannot live without it, and mostly everything can be done to maintain this constitutional order. --] (]) 03:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

	===What do international political authorities - say?===
	Whether this is mainly a coup d'etat or mainly a constitutional crisis is to some degree a question of sociopolitical judgment. The summary line starts: ''"All Latin American nations (with the exception of Honduras), as well as the United States, Spain, France, and others, have publicly condemned the forced removal of Zelaya as undemocratic and '''most''' have labeled it as a coup d'état."'' (my '''emphasis'''). Unless this summary is factually wrong, then ] would seem to say that the correct title should be "coup d'etat", not "constitutional crisis", it seems to me. Please remember that en.wikipedia is for knowledge about the World - it is not intended to be USA.wikipedia.org - so POVs from media or politicians in one particular country (e.g. USA) should not count as being more "reliable" than those of media or politicians in other countries.

	Is the word ''"most"'' in the above summary correct or wrong? ] (]) 23:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

	:This argument is already present in the ]. ] (]) 00:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
	::And the result of that lengthy discussion "was that the article should be at 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis. The majority has made the valid argument that the use of the word "coup" is inherently biased, even though it may be commonly used."--] (]) 09:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
	:::Although it was more like a compromise with people actively wanting it under "crisis", and it was understood that things may change once time passed and/or an international court officially labelled it as a coup. --] (]) 13:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
	::::An international court that did not even bother to check Honduran constitutional law. It's disgusting that the rest of the world is calling this legitimate process a coup when everything was handled by what is stated within Honduran constitutional law. Because of international ignorance, numerous country leaders have made fools of their selves and played right into Chaves's hand. Some "international court" does not make the laws and decisions for what is right and wrong in Honduras; the '''Honduran government''' does that. To bit this in retrospect, it'd be just as silly as other countries around the world denouncing and not recognizing the United States government if we did something within constitutional law that the rest of the world did not agree with. Think about that one for a second; people that aren't US citizens are telling us how it should be and if we don't revert the situation then they won't recognize us as a country. If that doesn't sound completely ignorant to you, then I can understand why you're then pushing for a "coup" title in the article. ] (]) 12:55, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
	:::::This place is ]. Please focus on ], ] article content, and not on your ] political views. I will remove further comments in the same tone from this talk page. Thank you. --] (]) 13:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

	===A Neutral Title===
	In light of the controversy of neutrally naming this article, I propose using an ambiguous title. Ambiguous because the title will only indicate a crisis, not one of constitutional or coup d'etat type. For example, the ] WP article calls what's happening in Honduras a '''political crisis'''. Ambiguous in that no mention of the coup or constitution is made but accurate because Honduras is in a political crisis. Would this not satisfy both parties, coup proponents and dissidents? Is this not neutral?

	This will allow any denial of the coup to take place in the article not in its name.
	] (]) 22:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

	:Ehm... this has been discussed to death, please check this talk page's archives. "Political crisis" was used at one point; I doubt it'll satisfy anyone any more than "constitutional crisis" does, as the debate was about "crisis" vs "coup", with the adjective put before "crisis" being disregarded by most.
	:Also, the current title is ''exactly'' an attempt to be "ambiguous" in the sense that a "constitutional crisis" may have a coup d'état as part of it - and in fact, there is a "Coup d'état" section in the article (that was also part of the compromise).
	:I !voted for "constitutional crisis" at the time, but right now, if anything, I'd change back to "coup" unless international sources have changed their minds. --] (]) 22:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

	::Next time I will be more thorough before I post. Thanks for your help. ] (]) 02:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

	The Title "Constitutional Crisis" is appropriate and neutral. The language used even by those that have characterized the events of June 28th as a Coup have stated it is an interuption to Constitutional Democracy. That is the official language used by the OAS and various governments. The "restoration of constitutional order" is language used by the OAS and US etc. to describe the Arias meetings. The Honduran political establishment for the most part considers the succession constitutionally proper. Whether or not it was an interuption of constitutional norms, or a constitutional succession is at the heart of the ongoing dispute. By adding "crisis" it is implied there is a problem or dispute of a constitutional nature - which is exactly the case. Calling it a Coup takes one side. Calling it the "presidential succession of 2009" would imply bias legitimaizing the change over.] (]) 22:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

	I would say it is constitutional in nature, as well as political. But constitutional is a closer description, as all constitutional considerations necessarily include the political, as it is a political document. ] (]) 18:40, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

	== RFC: Is The Coup D'Etat heading violating PoV? ==

	{{rfctag\|pol}}

	Sorry to bring this up again but I'm on my last revert protecting this '''compromise solution''' from last month's endless debate. Can we get eyes on this?] (]) 21:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

	:You just beat me to that last revert. The title and section heading were a combined compromise hashed out after much digital ink was spilled. I "vote" for not reopening the issue. ] (]) 21:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

	:Doesn't need to be reopened, and changes it without even discussing it here first should be treated as bad-faith disruption, as the warning comment in the source is very clear. --] (]) 21:30, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

	:Its a closed topic and I see no reason to re-open it, and anybody who wants to complain it violates NPOV also should know about WP:3RR which the offending user has violated overwhelmingly today. Just FYI, reverting for the sake of maintaining a consensus state in the face of vandalism is one of the exceptions to WP:3RR I believe. ] (]) 22:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

	::Vandalism? It is too far to call a change a vandalism. '''This kind of accusation is worse than foul words'''. If the topic can't be reopened, what kind of change can be treated as good-faith? --] (]) 03:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

	:Fair enough. I'll remember that in future rather than resorting to an otherwise pointless RFC.] (]) 03:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

	::This issue has spilled over a little into ]. i have done most of the editing there, so it would be better for someone else than me to revert (or confirm if you disagree with my judgment) the recent edit discussed at ]. Please go over to that talk page, and add a comment if you wish to and/or edit the article. Probably best not to edit the article without adding at least a brief comment in the discussion section. That editor may not be aware of the previous discussions. ] (]) 20:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

	I propose the name 'Detention, Forced Exile and Constitutional Crisis' instead of "Coup d'etat". The word "Coup d'etat" has two meanings, one is on cutting off the head of state (on non-democratic states), and the other is cutting of an accepted constitutional order (on democratic states). The word "]" is used when a head of state try to abolish execution of a key clause of accepted constitutional order. It shows that the word "coup" is ambiguous here and is '''very misleading''', because the major point of concern is the constitutional order, not the head of state. All parties maintain that Honduras should adopt or return to democratic constitutional order, and the only question is "how", and particularly on what is the way, respecting the rule of law, to reinforce the constitution article of limiting presidential office term.--] (]) 03:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
	:I'm strongly in favor of this. ] (]) 22:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

	::Please read up the previous debates about the name of the article. Unless there are significant new arguments in addition to previous arguments in the debate whether this article should be "2009 Honduran coup d'etat" or rather "2009 Honduran constitutional crisis", then there is no point trying to rename the section. The section name was a compromise to avoid an ugly compromise title such as "2009 Honduran constitutional crisis/coup d'etat" or an eternal move-war on the article title.

	::Regarding "all parties" - please remember that the large numbers of typically (but not only) poorer Hondurans who are campaigning to have a constituent assembly also constitute an important party in the issue, and they continue to use the term "coup d'etat". If Western media have stopped using the term coup d'etat (mainly because they are not saying anything at all now?), that doesn't change the fact that it was used in the past, nor does it change the fact that the US State Department has just a few weeks declared that it has "determined" that a coup d'etat occurred, nor does it change the usage by many governments around the world.

	::i do not see any use in considering a title like ] for this article. The compromise of "constitutional crisis" in the title and "coup d'etat" as a major section is probably the only consensus that is likely to be obtainable (except for the reverse: coup d'etat as the article title and constitutional crisis as part of the background and situation during the coup d'etat government; however, the amount of talk and energy investment required for this reverse solution would be better spent in other ways). ] (]) 21:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
	:::I have read the discussions. I took Kittyhawk's statement as a comment on one of the subject headers, not the title of the page. ] (]) 01:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

	::::The subject header "Coup d'etat" and the title of the page are fundamentally linked as a solution for an otherwise-unsolvable disagreement. There's a yellow box at the top of this talk page, saying ''"Important Note: The presence, or absence, of the words "coup d'état" in the title and/or section titles of this article is a controversial subject, and has generated considerable discussion. Please do not make any changes in this regard without first discussing them here and allowing some time for response. The most stable compromise has been to have the words in a first-level section head, but not in the article title, as the article's focus extends further. ..."'' i did not put that summary box there, and i did not participate in the original discussions. i did make a comment that i thought might be new, but it wasn't seen as strong enough to re-open the old discussions. My general perception is that the yellow box is consistent with the parts of the talk page that i read.

	:::: Maybe someone could find section links and archive links (is some of this talk page archived?) so that people new to the debate can go more quickly to the points of the previous debate and see if there if things have changed enough to reopen the debate.

	:::: For example, if the huge majority of governments around the world who considered this to be a coup d'etat withdrew their statements (does someone have a RS for this?) ''and'' if there was serious evidence that Zelaya was not forcibly removed from Honduras by the Honduran military (any RS's? e.g. maybe it was a hoax, like claims that NASA never really sent men to the Moon), ''and'' if there was serious evidence that the massive popular resistance by ordinary Hondurans decided to withdraw its usage of the term "el golpe de estado", then maybe this would be enough to reopen the debate.

	:::: Again, i don't see how talk by world governments of aiming for constitutional government could change the importance of a coup d'etat having taken place. This is the third case of military in a Latin American democracy removing the elected president this decade - it's not clear to me that it's so much softer than all the previous coups d'etat in Latin America over many decades - some were quite bloody, some were less bloody, with various levels of human rights violations committed by various big-business–military–president–court–congress coalitions giving more or less apparent control to civilians. In any case, this is a wikipedia article, not a wikinews article. The most recent political aims of international governments or Honduran groups of various demographic sectors are not necessarily the most important pieces of knowledge for this article. ] (]) 20:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

	== Zelaya in Honduras? ==

	I just thought I'd drop in on the gang here to try and head off a debate I assume will take place. Reliable sources are ''divided'' over whether Zelaya is actually in Tegucigalpa right now. The BBC and the CBC, for example, express considerable doubt that he's actually there. CNN, on the other hand, accepts Zelaya's claim that he is actually there. Xinhua (not a very reliable source) says "reports" say that he is.

	Anyway, just in case someone gets it in their head to write content along the lines of "Zelaya says he's in Tegucigalpa now, so he therefore must be" - reliable sources ''may'' disagree about that. ] (]) 19:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

	::Xinhua is generally reliable for anything not immediately related to Chinese objectives.] (]) 21:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

	:::Yeah, the trick is figuring out when things are immediately related to Chinese objectives. :) ] (]) 12:54, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:Okay, I now stand corrected - the BBC now claims to have interviewed him by phone from the Brazilian embassy. ] (]) 21:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	::Now Reuters says the U.S. government is confirming that Zelaya is back. ] (]) 21:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

			I have just added archive links to {{plural:26\|one external link\|26 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx\|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx\|nobots\|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
	:::He's back and gave press conferences on TV and radio from the Brazilian Embassy in Tegucigalpa. He called people in Honduras around 10 am, Tegucigalpa time. ] (]) 01:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090702162722/http://www.worldbulletin.net:80/news_detail.php?id=44074 to http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=44074
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			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090715044702/http://news.yahoo.com:80/s/afp/20090708/pl_afp/honduraspoliticsmilitarycoupus_20090708145552 to http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090708/pl_afp/honduraspoliticsmilitarycoupus_20090708145552
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090719095514/http://www.tiempo.hn:80/secciones/crisis-politica/713-arias-propondra-gobierno-de-reconciliacion- to http://www.tiempo.hn/secciones/crisis-politica/713-arias-propondra-gobierno-de-reconciliacion-
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			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090802095249/http://www.tiempo.hn:80/secciones/crisis-politica/1566-desalojan-carretera-con-bombas-lacrimogenas to http://www.tiempo.hn/secciones/crisis-politica/1566-desalojan-carretera-con-bombas-lacrimogenas
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090804074241/http://www.tiempo.hn:80/secciones/crisis-politica/1735-fallece-mestro-seguidor-de-zelaya-herido-durante-marcha-en-honduras to http://www.tiempo.hn/secciones/crisis-politica/1735-fallece-mestro-seguidor-de-zelaya-herido-durante-marcha-en-honduras
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090709101249/http://www.telesurtv.net:80/noticias/secciones/nota/53467-NN/miles-de-personas-se-preparan-para-recibir-a-zelaya-en-su-regreso-a-honduras/ to http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/53467-NN/miles-de-personas-se-preparan-para-recibir-a-zelaya-en-su-regreso-a-honduras/
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090925014907/http://news.yahoo.com:80/s/ap/20090922/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup to http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090922/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup

			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091117180025/http://www.laestrella.com.pa:80/mensual/2009/11/14/contenido/13013531.asp to http://www.laestrella.com.pa/mensual/2009/11/14/contenido/13013531.asp
	== Requested move ==
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20151222140816/http://www.hondurasthisweek.com/international/1766-german-parliament-votes-to-support-honduran-elections to http://www.hondurasthisweek.com/international/1766-german-parliament-votes-to-support-honduran-elections
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090630082905/http://www.nationalpost.com:80/news/story.html?id=1741925 to http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1741925
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110615232128/http://www.acs-aec.org/PressCenter/NewsReleases/2009/nr142009_en.htm to http://www.acs-aec.org/PressCenter/NewsReleases/2009/nr142009_en.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090710220039/http://www.poderjudicial.gob.hn:80/NR/rdonlyres/87E2BFFC-AF4D-44EA-BFC5-D93730D8D81C/2413/ExpedienteJudicial1.pdf to http://www.poderjudicial.gob.hn/NR/rdonlyres/87E2BFFC-AF4D-44EA-BFC5-D93730D8D81C/2413/ExpedienteJudicial1.pdf
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091021225652/http://www.poder360.com:80/article_detail.php?id_article=2690 to http://www.poder360.com/article_detail.php?id_article=2690

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.
	{{movereq\|2009 Honduran political crisis}}

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	* '''support''' ] → ] — The current title, "2009 Honduran constitutional crisis," is contested, is not NPOV, and is not descriptive. The nature of this political crisis extends far beyond any question of constitutionality.--] (]) 09:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC) ] (]) 09:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
	:Perhaps "Presidential Crisis" or "Presidential Dispute" instead of "Political Crisis"? "Presidential" is surely NPOV (this is about the Presidency, after all) and it's much more specific than the hopelessly vague "Political." ] (]) 19:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
	::What serves to make the title "2009 Honduran political crisis" precise and descriptive are the terms "2009," "Honduran" and "crisis." Add the word "political" and we've got a title that is obviously about the events in question. There's nothing vague about it.--] (]) 17:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 19:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
	* '''oppose'''. This is much more than a ''political'' crisis, it's a coup d'etat used to try to prevent a political solution. In other words, soldiers with guns have been used to "solve" the political dispute between elite and poor Hondurans instead of using "politics", i.e. discussion, meta-discussion on "what-the-rules-should-be", i.e. a ] has been prevented (in the short term) by the use of guns, the threat of the use of guns, and systematic human rights violations by those who ''de facto'' took power. In other words, a better title would be ]. However, that's a bit long. The short form would be ]. That's how historians have talked about this sort of situation in Latin America for many similar events during the XX-th century and the two previous Latin American coups d'etat in the XX1-st century. ] (]) 01:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
	** '''comment''' - i think that someone should first give a good list of links to the points raised the previous time this was discussed. ] (]) 01:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
	*'''Neutral''' - I think either "constitutional crisis" or "political crisis" would be a valid title. With respect to "coup d'etat", I am curious how many of the previous situations historians referred to as such involved the country's supreme court authorizing the military to replace the president with the #2 from his own party due to the president's unconstitutional actions. ] (]) 01:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
	** Chile, 1973. Which is pretty much universally understood as a coup d'etat. A military overthrowing a government is a coup, whether it's a caretaker coup, a veto coup, or anything else. I don't understand the refusal of this site to use the actual description of events. Anything except "coup d'etat" is POV on the side of the perpetrators. --] (]) 12:46, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
	***Chile, 1973 is not at all comparable to this situation. In Chile, 1973 a military leader took over as the head of the government. In this situation, the miltary's only involvement was to enforce the Honduran supreme court's order to remove Zelaya due to Zelaya's constitutional violations and replace Zelaya with the constitutionally valid #2. The military's role was no different than if a US president was constitutionally impeached and removed from office, and the appropiate US forces enforced the impeachment by allowing the vice-president to take over. I think the POV is on the other foot. ] (]) 20:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
	* '''Support'''. The only RS for this being a coup or a constitutional transition would be those whose job it is to interpret that country´s constitution Has the Supreme court of Honduras called it a coup in any legal opinion?--] (]) 07:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
	* '''oppose'''. We've discussed and rejected such a change before; see the archive of this talk page. ] (]) 19:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
	* '''Support'''. It doesn't matter what you did before I wasn't here. The Title 2009 Honduran political crisis is certainly more neutral. Da'oud Nkrumah 03:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	* '''Neutral''' - it's worth understanding that both sides see this as a constitutional crisis, between the current one and one that a constituent assembly would provide. Changing the title to "political" would certainly reflect what's been written, but the kernel here remains the constitution. I used to be of the opinion that the folks wanting to keep it at "constitution" were equivocating, and using the word to hide the "bigger picture". When you realize that pro-Zelaya or otherwise anti-coup and pro-constituent assembly are as deeply concerned about the constitution, you realize that the bigger picture ''is'' the constitution. Long short short: I don't think it makes a difference one way or another. ] (]) 14:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	* '''Strong support''', clearly this isn't a Constitutional issue as we know it. Political is much more accurate. 15:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	* '''Strongly oppose''' This is more than a political crisis. It is a crisis caused by interpretation of the Honduras constution and a desire by some groups to alter it. The appointment of Micheletti as successor instead of the vice president shows a violation by the de facto government of succession rules laid down in the constitution. The constitution is being used to avoid altering the political status quo. It really should be called the 2009 Coup d'etat because that is what it is univerally recognised by governments throughout the world. This has already been argued ad nauseum and the present name was the compromise. ] (]) 16:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091007013830/http://www.miamiherald.com/honduras/v-fullstory/story/1248828.html to http://www.miamiherald.com/honduras/v-fullstory/story/1248828.html
	==CRS report==
	The US Congressional Research Service has a report that the ouster of Zelaya was allowed under the Honduras constitution. Here's a link:
	http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/2009-002965HNRPT.pdf] (]) 20:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
	:There are some rather serious concerns regarding that report. See the analysis by Prof. Rosemary Joyce, the ''Richard and Rhoda Goldman Distinguished Professor of Social Sciences'' and ''Chair of Anthropology'' at the University of California, Berkeley. ] (]) 11:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
	::That analysis may or may not qualify as a reliable source. The CRS report obviously does, and should be referenced. Then we should decide whether to reference criticisms of it.] (]) 16:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
	:Actually, if you look, its not a CRS report, its a resport by a Senior Foreign Law specialist with the Law Library of Congress. The CRS disclaims it. It has serious problems, but yes, you can cite it in the same way other "Opinions" can be cited against it. ] (]) 16:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=failed}}
	:I might add that if you look at the Law Library of Congress report, you'll notice it makes reference to phone conversations with guillermo perez cadalso to confirm the novel thesis it comes up with. Perez Cadalso is a golpista who testified before the US congress on the rightness of the coup. Tainted scholarship. ] (]) 19:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
	Another serious flaw in the report was to say that Micheletti was next in line. While it is true that the vice president resigned 6 months before to concentrate on his election to be president his successor Vice President Aristides Mejia then became next in line under the Honduran constitution. The report makes no mention of this merely mentioning that the VP had resigned. ] (]) 17:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

	== ~~Organization~~ ==		== External links modified ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	The structure of this article seems quite poor. As a reader with little familiarity with the crisis, I found the article difficult to follow. The section on "Coup d'état" includes descriptions of the coup itself, but then, under the same heading, goes on to include several subsections describing various abuses allegedly committed by the Micheletti government and a subsection on opposition to the Micheletti government. Then, under a new top-level section heading, we get "public opinion," and only then comes a top-level heading called "Events after 28 June," despite the fact that almost all of the alleged human rights abuses and opposition described in the "Coup d'état" section happened after June 28.

			I have just added archive links to {{plural:13\|one external link\|13 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx\|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx\|nobots\|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
	I recommend a more chronological organization, with the "events after 28 June" section moved immediately after the "Coup d'état" section and the subsections on alleged Micheletti government abuses moved there and placed in chronological order to the extent possible (since many of the events overlap a strict chronology is obviously impossible). For example, the bit of the article that says "protests against the coup began almost immediately" should remain near the top of this section. If chronology is just hopeless, perhaps there should be a new section called something like "Alleged Abuses by the Micheletti government"? ] (]) 15:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121102091721/http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091117/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup to http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091117/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_coup
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100412050724/http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMGKIUDg_ngUiZboxQbYj5_DPwD9C7EF380 to http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMGKIUDg_ngUiZboxQbYj5_DPwD9C7EF380
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			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130523055258/http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gsIT2R-Ci3UL5yAitQ0dz3WYQ_GwD9AB09800 to http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gsIT2R-Ci3UL5yAitQ0dz3WYQ_GwD9AB09800
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110713191453/http://www.laverdadenhonduras.com/index.php/imagenes to http://www.laverdadenhonduras.com/index.php/imagenes
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110712215412/http://hondurasweekly.com/editorial/1442-honduras-crisis to http://hondurasweekly.com/editorial/1442-honduras-crisis

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	:AFAIK, most of the people in Honduras opposed to the coup d'etat refer to the Micheletti de facto government as "golpe de estado" or "golpistas" - a youth who shouted "golpistas" at police was shot dead by them just a few days ago - http://quotha.net/node/374 . So it's difficult not to put many of these sections in the "coup d'etat" section. This is unfortunately forced by the previous compromise of using "constitutional crisis" in the title and "coup d'etat" as a major section heading.

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=failed}}
	:As for human rights violations documented by the local and international human rights organisations, these normally happen as part of any coup d'etat, until a new coup d'etat or sometimes real or pseudo elections take place. There's also not much point listing all of the individual mass arrest events - 3500-4000 arbitrary arrests properly documented would overwhelm the list of mostly international politics events listed in the "after 28 June" section.

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 02:47, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
	:On the other hand, a restructuring or retitling (at least) would be good. My feeling is that the most natural (least OR/POV) would be to change the "events after 28 June" title, though i'm not sure what to. Something like "local protests, international reactions, attempted mediation by Insulza and then Arias, Zelaya's initial return attempts, from 28 June to 20 September 2009", though of course that's too long and cumbersome. Maybe the Zelaya return section could become a full section too, since it seems to be getting a lot of local and international attention.

			== External links modified ==
	:A straight chronological listing of events can go in the chronology article, though of course this article should still read more or less chronologically IMHO.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:Hope this helps rather than confuses... ] (]) 01:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

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	== So which version of the decree is correct? ==
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			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	Elsoc has what the claim to be the decree: http://www.elsoca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=501:honduras-decreto-ejecutivo-del-presidente-manuel-zelaya-para-consultarle-al-pueblo-sobre-la-cuarta-urna&catid=16&Itemid=11
	They use the word "consulta popular" translated as referendum.

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	La Tribuna quotes parts, http://www.latribuna.hn/web2.0/?p=13422, using the word "encuesta" translated as "opinion poll".

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 08:29, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
	Is any of these trustworthy? The supreme court obviously saw it as a referendum... --] (]) 07:00, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	== How can you say calling it a Coup D'Etat is neutral? ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Calling it a Coup D'Etat is exactly the debate here. A Coup D'Etat is the "unconstitutional" removal. So calling it the 2009 Honduran Coup D'Etat would not be neutral at all as the constitution is the basis for debate here. I think everyone is aware of what Article 239 says, and the real debate comes in the interpretation of this part of the constitution. 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis is the best description as it all started with an attempt to change the constitution, and now the argument surrounds the interpretation of article 239. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:55, 1 October 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:A wise IP address.--] (]) 00:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

			I have just modified 55 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:Regarding: "Calling it a Coup D'Etat is exactly the debate here ... the real debate comes in the interpretation of this part of the constitution."
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	:], Wikipedians are not allowed to base article content, article names -- or much of anything else -- on talk page debate on interpretations of anything!
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3465/honduras-coup-leader-micheletti-decrees-45-day-suspension-constitution
	:Such editor opinions and debates, no matter how good, are considered "]" -- and are irrelevant within the confined context of the Misplaced Pages encyclopedia.
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	:The debate you propose would be a waste of time, and would serve only to muddy the waters.
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090725035728/http://www.australia.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10581%3Ahonduras-soldier-sailor-airport-builder&catid=71%3Aworld-news&Itemid=201 to http://www.australia.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10581%3Ahonduras-soldier-sailor-airport-builder&catid=71%3Aworld-news&Itemid=201
	:The only legitimate debate would be which Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines apply, and what they dictate we do.
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	:Misplaced Pages has an English Misplaced Pages policy specifically on how to name articles, and it is called ]. -- ] 15:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
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	::The appropriate policy for calling this act a coup d'etat is ]. It was a coup we should name it thus. ] (]) 15:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:::But the article is also ''so much'' about the constitution. I think splitting the article into two would help this problem, but I also think a lot of us have approached this article from a rather entrenched mentality, and will confuse a split with a POV fork. We're kind of stuck on technicalities with one article, since this is as much about the coup as the constitution. Maybe we should call it the coupstitutional crisis :-p ] (]) 15:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:::So, since in reality it ''wasn't'' a coup, we should respect ] and rename it as such, right? ] (]) 16:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	::::"In reality it ''wasn't'' a coup," because ]?
	::::] states, "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, for example the ''New York Times'' in the United States and ''The Times'' in Great Britain, as well as widely used conglomerates such as the ''Associated Press''."
	::::The ''New York Times'' published, the day before yesterday, "supporters of the '''coup''' that ousted President Manuel Zelaya three months ago have for the first time suggested his return as president" and that "There are other signs that the coalition of politicians, businessmen and the military that supported the '''coup''' is feeling pressure from the international community."
	::::''The Times'' in Britain published, September 23rd, that "Roberto Micheletti, president of the interim government that took power after a '''coup''' on June 28, said that Mr Zelaya must first accept elections to choose a new president on November 29" and "Mr Zelaya made his surprise return to Honduras on Monday, three months after being ousted in a '''military-backed coup'''" and that "Mr Lula said that he had spoken to Mr Zelaya by telephone on Monday and urged him not to give the '''coup''' plotters any pretext to resort to violence."
	::::The ''Associated Press'' published, yesterday, "".
	::::The ''Washington Post'' published, today, "The administration , along with all other governments in the hemisphere, branded the action a ''''coup''''." -- ] 17:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:::::Specifically because the reliable sources that are speaking from authority, as opposed to the partisan governments and uninformed media, are noting correctly that it is not a coup. We even have the US legal group that noted that the situation was entirely legal. So no, it's not because I say so, it's because the reliable sources that are authoritative on the subject of law in Honduras say so. ] (]) 18:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	This is not a forum; we are not here to prove anything to anyone. Please take opinions elsewhere. Thank you. ] (]) 16:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:Our debate needs to focus on our NPOV policy and not on the Honduran constitution. Thanks, ] ] 17:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Extrajudical executions ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 11:38, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
	Unless the sources specifically use this term, this is an OR violation of the most egregious type. People involved in insurrection that are killed while participating are not being executed. When a police officer kills in the line of duty, it is not an execution. This is extremely biased language and should be fixed. Any suggestions on how to do it?--] (]) 13:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:Being that the article redirects to ], I think that renaming it to that might be the best thing we could do now. "Execution" has perhaps too strong a connotative meaning. Even then, the text doesn't quite substantiate ''extrajudicial''; it is all very suspicious, though... but we can't have a title that reads "suspicious killings". I'm thinking extrajudicial is the best word between "assassination" and "suspicious deaths". You got any ideas? ] (]) 14:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	:High profile deaths? ] (]) 14:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
	::How about the neutral "Deaths" that does not require OR violations. If the source does not label them as such, neither can we.--] (]) 16:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

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In the "Zelaya’s secret return to Honduras" section, this bit "assaulted the occupants of the embassy with toxic gases and radiation," ends with an archived link that doesn't seem to work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.38.126 (talk) 19:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

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Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/honduras-human-rights-expert/
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Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.guelphmercury.com/Wire/News_Wire/World/article/520436
Corrected formatting/usage for http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/obama-says-coup-in-honduras-would-set-a-terrible-precedent-.html

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External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 55 external links on 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Micheletti/ordena/cierre/medios/comunicacion/afines/Zelaya/elpepuint/20090928elpepuint_2/Tes
Corrected formatting/usage for http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3465/honduras-coup-leader-micheletti-decrees-45-day-suspension-constitution
Corrected formatting/usage for http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE59I43L20091019?sp=true
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090725035728/http://www.australia.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10581%3Ahonduras-soldier-sailor-airport-builder&catid=71%3Aworld-news&Itemid=201 to http://www.australia.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10581%3Ahonduras-soldier-sailor-airport-builder&catid=71%3Aworld-news&Itemid=201
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090702160952/http://coa.counciloftheamericas.org/article.php?id=1726 to http://coa.counciloftheamericas.org/article.php?id=1726
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cidob.org/es/documentacion/biografias_lideres_politicos/america_central_y_caribe/honduras/manuel_zelaya_rosales
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elheraldo.hn/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/06/19/Noticias/Cuarta-urna-una-idea-reciclada-de-Venezuela
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Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.heraldohn.com/index.php/Ediciones/2009/09/21/Noticias/Aparecen-acuerdos-para-saquear-el-FHIS
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110614205643/http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html to http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html
Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.laprensahn.com/vivir/index.php/Ediciones/2009/06/26/Noticias/Investigan-actos-del-presidente-Zelaya
Corrected formatting/usage for http://documents.scribd.com/docs/2lhe8oc6gidv9pb2zm3n.pdf
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Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.miamiherald.com/1506/story/1125872.html
Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/5jayZVstj?url=http://www.elfaro.net/secciones/Noticias/20090629/noticias16_20090629.asp to http://www.elfaro.net/secciones/Noticias/20090629/noticias16_20090629.asp
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Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090712005414/http://www.hoy.com.ec/noticias-ecuador/chavez-coordino-accion-militar-357278.html to http://www.hoy.com.ec/noticias-ecuador/chavez-coordino-accion-militar-357278.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.heraldohn.com/index.php/Ediciones/2009/07/08/Noticias/Detienen-venezolanos-que-viajaban-a-Honduras/%28offset%29/35
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.heraldohn.com/content/view/full/212170
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elheraldo.hn/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/09/21/Noticias/Hasta-venezolanos-estuvieron-en-el-consulado-de-LA
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elheraldo.hn/Ediciones/2009/08/07/Noticias/Venezuela-le-paga-a-embajador-Reina
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.laprensa.hn/Sintesis/Lo-ultimo/Ediciones/2009/10/18/Noticias/La-resistencia-niega-que-este-buscando-armas
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elheraldo.hn/Mundo/Ediciones/2009/10/18/Noticias/Chavez-alerta-sobre-surgimiento-de-guerrilla
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.militante.org/honduras-la-disyuntiva-es-capitalismo-o-socialismo
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.ceal-dlca.org/2009/08/llamamiento-del-frente-nacional-contra.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.pidhdd.org/content/view/680/165/
Corrected formatting/usage for http://contraelgolpedeestadohn.blogspot.com/2009/07/posicionamiento-frente-al-encuentro-de.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cofadeh.org/html/documentos/informe_violaciones_ddhh_golpe_estado.doc
Corrected formatting/usage for http://alainet.org/active/32206
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Corrected formatting/usage for http://quixote.org/node/934
Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/08/25/honduras-rights-report-shows-need-increased-international-pressure
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/v-fullstory/story/1138977.html
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.tercerainformacion.es/?Atentado-con-bomba-en-sede-de
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.derechos.org/nizkor/honduras/doc/golpe97en.html
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Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Mercenarios/israelies/ultrasonidos/suicidios/fingidos/elpepuint/20090924elpepuint_7/Tes
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Corrected formatting/usage for https://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/beatings-and-detentions-follow-honduras-demonstrations-20090924
Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.laprensahn.com/index.php/content/view/full/359368/
Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-11/06/content_12398164.htm
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press-releases/press-releases/honduras-human-rights-expert/
Corrected formatting/usage for http://en.mercopress.com/2009/07/25/mercosur-warns-it-rejects-any-attempt-to-call-new-elections-in-honduras
Corrected formatting/usage for http://news.guelphmercury.com/Wire/News_Wire/World/article/520436
Corrected formatting/usage for http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/06/obama-says-coup-in-honduras-would-set-a-terrible-precedent-.html
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090715075153/http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/06/125452.htm to http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/06/125452.htm
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090630082905/http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1741925 to http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1741925
Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.ffaah.mil.hn/Noticias/2009/juli/nota11.pdf

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