| Revision as of 00:39, 22 December 2005 edit68.107.174.166 (talk) →RE: Afrocentrist Slant← Previous edit |
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I agree with the above and with what has been said about the Moors probably being a group whose name refers to them collectively as a foreign invading group in Spain, regardless of their racial or ethnic origin, who were united and grouped together as a result of their common religion and/or language. My issue with the original article is its obvious lack of objectivity, and its grandstanding on the issue of race, leading to nothing less than a flame session on race and culture. To wit: |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1= |
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{{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=High }} |
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{{WikiProject Berbers |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Spain |importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Portugal |importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Morocco |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Arab world |importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Islam |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject African diaspora |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Africa |importance=High |Mauritania=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Human Genetic History |importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject British Overseas Territories|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Middle Ages|importance=high}} |
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== Moor from Mauri == |
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"Black does not exist- in cannot exist because no human can be a color- black, negro, colored are all terms that eruopeans used to supress moors after the inquisition - therefore a moor cannot be black. furthermore there is no nationality of black people. they do not have a flag, country nor a constitution and can never exist. The right to have nationality is inalienable, see United nations -" |
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I frankly don't understand why this article is separated from the one for ], since the word ''Moor'' is originally from ''Mauri'', which was used by Romans, and by the native Mauri (inhabitants of the Kingdom of Mauretania and the Roman provinces that ensued from them) to designate themselves, indicating as Gabriel Camps suggests that it may be originally a Berber word that went into Greek then Latin. The claim of the first paragraph of the article that it was an "exonym" in that sense, is not accurate, and much less is the claim that it was an equivalent of ''Muslim''. The term was and remained much more strongly associated with Northwest Africa and its proxy regions (e.g. Andalusia) than any other place, and a cursory search in the literature is sufficient indication, that it was mainly a geographical term that was sometimes abused and generalized, but most often retained its original significance (check the number of hits for "Moorish Morocco" vs "Moorish Egypt" or any other region, on Google Books or Google Scholar for instance). --] (]) 10:23, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2) |
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Pardon me, but that is utter bull crap. Not only is this a subjective opinion, but the idea that one biased person has the nerve to define or negate the existence of a whole group of people based purely on circular logic is ridiculous. Starting from the statement that "black does not exist"; who or what gives you the authority to make this a "factual" statement? Your uninformed opinion is not enough to make such a premise valid. To go on from there and make the illogical leap that a Moor cannot be black as a result of your unsupported, biased statement that "black does not exist" is specious at the very least, and irresponsible as well. With respect to the statements about nationalities and flags, there are plenty of people of all colors who have nations and flags to call their own, but so what? Their are also distinct ethnic groups, such as the Palestinian Arabs, who have no official country; yet that doesn't stop them from claiming their Arab ethnicity, language and religion. Therefore, the author's statement that one needs to have a nation or flag in order to have a claim to ethnicity, color, race or what have you, is downright stupid. |
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== Abu Yusuf and Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada are named == |
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Whatever anyone thinks or feels or believes about race as a scientific or biological premise is irrelevant for the simple reason that no matter what one's genes say about one when analized under a microscope, it is the social construct of race and the visible marker of skin color that matter and make the difference in our daily interactions with one another. What some scientist has discovered regarding the biological evidence for or against the existence of "race" has absolutely no bearing on whether someone is discriminated against because of their skin color or has the history of their people white washed or re-written as the result of prejudicial views. |
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Academic sources clearly name both Abu Yusuf of the Benimerines and al Murtada of the Almohades. |
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pardon me: But Im not going to try to speak with all the big words but what i have to say is factual. All this history is being told by a liar race. First off There was no such thing as a WHITE MOOR. They all were Of the Black race. But as usual The white man doesnt give no credit to people of color our people. A light skinned black man is black because he has melanin. A dark skinned black man is black also. Either you have melanin or not. Either you have the dominant gene or the recessive. White people dont have melanin all Moors had melanin slave or not. so stop trying to separate us. white moors lol...oh yeah and if there can be no person black there definetely cant be a person white, that would be a ghost... |
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Can someone please label this image > ] with Abu Yusuf's name? 'Abu Yusuf, the emir of the Benimerines, is defeated in Morocco by Christian knights bearing the banner of Holy Mary' >https://books.google.co.tz/books?redir_esc=y&id=7Q7tDcPIEgMC&q=abu+yusuf#v=snippet&q=abu%20yusuf&f=false |
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t is for these reasons that I find this article on the topic of Moors written by this author to be of no academic merit, and am of the opinion that it should be removed for being biased, inaccurate, harmful and thoroughly irresponsible. It does nothing but incite base passions, and contributes nothing to furthering anyone's objective understanding of the subject. |
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Rightfully restore the pictures of Umar al Murtada as well > https://books.google.co.tz/books?redir_esc=y&id=7Q7tDcPIEgMC&q=abu+yusuf#v=snippet&q=al-Murtada&f=false. ] (]) 04:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC) |
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The following text was moved from the article. ] 12:22 Nov 7, 2002 (UTC) |
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:idk why my previous edit request was deleted but. but I think the sources in it are relevant so I will post them again. to further prove it's al murtada |
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''Although this sort of maniqueism seems to be recurrent in ] historiography of that period, the Inquisition was invented by the French in the ] during the crussade against the ] heresy in the ]. It is true that it was Ferdinand of Aragon, the model of prince used by ](]?), who scaled it as the general repressive instrument to control the state dissidents of any kind, and it was perfected by Philip II in the repression of the protestants in the Spanish Netherlands.'' |
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:Please bring back the image that was removed here https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Moors&oldid=1254751943 |
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:This image was removed after an Afrocentrist YouTube channel spread the baseless claim that this photo doesn't depict Almohad Sultan but rather Visigothic or Levantine scholars in Spain. Their only argument was the fact that the poems don't mention him by name. |
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:I will provide the historical context and evidence to prove that this is false and the person depicted is indeed Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. |
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:Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X is titled "The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh". |
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:source: |
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:<ref>{{cite web |title=Cantiga 181 - The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh |url=https://csm.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php?narOption=nar&p=poemdata_view&rec=181 |website=The Oxford Cantigas de Santa Maria Database |publisher=Center for the Study of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Oxford University}}</ref> |
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:<ref>{{cite web |title=Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X - The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh |url=https://warfarewest.x10host.com/Cantiga/Cantigas_de_Santa_Maria-181.htm}}</ref> |
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:The text goes as follows: |
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:<blockquote> |
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:The King of Marrakech was at war with another king. |
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:The other king had crossed the Morabe River with a huge army and had laid siege to the city. |
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:The king of Marrakech was advised to go out from the city with his best warriors to do battle. He was to take the banner of Holy Mary and to be accompanied by Christians carrying crosses. |
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:The King followed this advice, and when the banner of Holy Mary was unfurled, the army of the other king was defeated. Many of his men were killed and they lost their tents and possessions. |
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:others, seeing the banner and crosses, fled in great haste. |
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:In this way, the Virgin helped her friends, even though they were of another faith. |
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:</blockquote> |
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:The poem talks about the battle between the Almohads and Marinids that took place near Marrakesh in the year 1262. When the Marinid sultan Abu Yusuf attempted to invade Marrakesh which was still held by the last Almohad sultan Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada. |
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:source: |
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:The historian Joseph F O'Callaghan talks about this event in his book. "Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography". In Chapter 7 "The Rise of the Benimerines" page 135 he says: |
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:<blockquote> |
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:The invasion of the peninsula in mid-May 1275 by the Benimerines, a new Muslim dynasty from Morocco, dictated the urgency of the king’s movements. The Bani Marin or Marinids, whom the Castilians knew as the Benimerines, rose to power in Morocco on the ashes of the disintegrating Almohad empire. When Alfonso X sent his expedition to Salé in 1260, Abu Yusuf Ya‘qub b. ‘Abd al-Haqq (1258-1286), the emir of the Benimerines, was establishing his rule in that region and occupied Salé after the Castilians abandoned it. |
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:CSM 169.53 described Abu Yusuf as lord of Salé—“o sennor de Cale.” His struggle to overthrow the Almohads extended over a period of years and was not completed until 1269.” |
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:'''With some satisfaction CSM 181''', without mentioning his name, relates the story of a major defeat that Abu Yusuf suffered when he besieged Marrakech—“na cidade de Marrocos que e mui grand’ e fremosa” (6)—at an unknown date, perhaps in 1262 or 1264.?” This richly |
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:illuminated cantiga shows the encampment of the turbanned and bearded Benimerines, armed with shields, lances, and pennants (panel 1). '''Abu Yusuf’s opponent, presumably al-Murtada, the last of the Almohad caliphs (d. 1268), is depicted with turban and beard and sitting crosslegged as his counselors urge him to give battle, but first to order the Christians of the city to bring out the banner of the Virgin Mary and the crosses from the church:''' |
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:E porend’ os de Marrocos al Rei tal conssello davan que saisse da cidade con béa gent’ esleuda |
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:D’armas e que mantenente cono outro rei lidasse |
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:e logo fora da vila a sina sacar mandasse |
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:da Virgen Santa Mana, e que per ren non dultasse que os logo non vencesse, pois la ouvesse tenduda; |
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:Demais, que sair fezesse dos crischdos o concello conas cruzes da eigreja (17-26). |
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:In the panels (3-6) portraying the confrontation of the two armies, a body of mounted warriors dressed in mail and bowled helmets carries two crosses and a red banner showing the Virgin Mary seated on a gold throne with her Child in her lap.*® Clearly these are Christian soldiers in the service of the Almohad caliph. Filled with great fear when they saw the Christian symbols, the enemy fled in disorder, leaving their tents behind. “Many of that ugly and bearded people died there”—“‘e morreu _y muita gente dessa fea e barvuda’” (33). The poet concluded triumphantly that Mary helps her friends, even those of another faith, who appealed to her: |
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:E assi Santa Maria ajudou a seus amigos, |
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:pero que d’ outra lei eran, a britar seus éemigos |
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:que, macar que eran muitos, nonos pregaron dous figos, e asst for ssa mercee de todos mui connoguda (40-43). |
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:</blockquote> |
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:(text might have errors because it was copied from a pdf) |
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:source: <ref>{{cite book |last1=O'Callaghan |first1=Joseph |title=Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography |date=1998 |publisher=Brill |isbn=9789004110236 |pages=135-136 |url=https://archive.org/details/alf_20231212/page/134/mode/2up}}</ref> |
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:As you can see. the panel does indeed depict Almohad sultan al-Murtada consulting his counselors including christian ones from Castille as the Merinids were shared enemies for both Almohads and Castille. Castille was allied with the Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. And this poem talks about how the christians convinced him to let the christian soldiers carry the banner of Holy Virgin Mary. Which according to Castillian was the reason the Almohad army defeated the Marinid army. |
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:I hope the image is brought back as I have provided extensive evidence. And please be careful with Afrocentric vandalization of such articles. ] (]) 12:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::Was a consensus reached? As a bot cleared and archived the previous topic for some reason? ] (]) 08:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Consensus with the melanated Anglo-Saxons with inferiority complex, a.k.a. Afrocentrists? Are you kidding? The We Wuz Kangz live in a parallel universe. A very WASP one, hilariously. C'mon, Misplaced Pages shouldn't depend on the whims, biases and cynical lies of an Afrocentrist YT channel like "The King's Monologue", the guy who believes that the Moors from the Cantigas are Visigoths (lol, lol, lol) or Levantines, and that the Fayum portraits are 500 years old ( lol, lol, lol). If the Moors being black is an Afrocentrist tenet, that's not Misplaced Pages's problem. ] (]) 11:57, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== The person who made Unsourced Claim == |
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The user https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B who created topic https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Moors#Unsourced_Claim, was stopped for 1 year, because of "Persistent long-time pushing of unreliable sources, bludgeoning of talkpages, block evasion and egregious personal attacks". Therefore should be disregarded, and the picture which was removed on https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Moors&diff=prev&oldid=1254751943 to be restored. ] (]) 08:37, 7 December 2024 (UTC) |
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All of the unsigned posts above sound to me like they come from different minds, so I'll assume this is true and address the two that are out of line: the one beginning with "whatever anyone thinks", and the one beginning with "pardon me". Firstly, it is ''never'' appropriate to lambast an entire group of people (whites, in this case) because one perceived member spouts offensive claims. Lamenting that "the white man" or the "liar race" has lied about history shouldn't be done on Misplaced Pages. It is a tired claim that is racist and unfounded, and is a sorry way of dealing with social problems and a history that some apparently find unsatisfactory because it doesn't accord with their highest wishes of how history should have been. The "pardon me" post that claims to reveal fact does not, as educated people can see. It is irrational and an impediment to social cooperation to believe that white people collectively foster enmity toward black people collectively, or that "the enemy" (white people) has conspiratorily "white-washed" history. It is best to realize that there are angry, ignorant people in our world who are usually interested in hurting others, and remember that these people are non-threats that will self-destruct and not react to them the way two of the above posters have. I believe that looking at others of a different color as people just like oneself can do everything in the way of eliminating such anger and frustration as has been expressed above. Whenever thoughts that objectify an entire group invade your mind, stop and think about how credible such ideas really are, and ''then'' express your opinion. --jugbo |
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Source for my details on the expulsion of the Moriscos: Fernand Braudel, ''The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World in the Age of Philip II'', trans. Sian Reynolds (Harper Colophon, 1976), pp. 780 - 797. -- ] 18:44, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC) |
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----- |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Moors&oldid=4329182 this article was never correctly.] 11:38, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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if here is anyone who speak arabic (such mustapha) should see this link in ar. :http://www.libsc.org/st/p0003.htm#50 (when were the Moors black ? or nomadic ?] 11:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC). |
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:The article doesn't claim they were black; it says they were darker-skinned than Europeans, which is true. In Roman times, they certainly were (famously) nomadic. This article looks fine to me. - ] 17:52, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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:Did you even read the page? It doesn't say they were nomadic anyway. - ] 18:15, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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please tell me what is this ? The Moors is the ancient name for the indigenous nomadic Berber people in North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Moors&oldid=4329182)] 14:33, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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:OK, so you corrected it. So why are you complaining about it if it's fixed? - ] 19:20, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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You know, I figured out what the issue is - you think "Moors" means the same thing as "Mauri". It doesn't, not in English. - ] 04:15, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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Moor is just mauri, but Mauri is latijn. you can see this : |
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Zie het artikel “Moriscos”, van G.A.Wiegers, in de EoI, vol. VII, fasc. 117-118 (1991), pp. 241-244; maar vooral L.P.Harvey, The political, social and cultural history of the Moriscos, in: Jayyusi, I (1994), pp. 201-234 (pp. 201-203 over de dubbelzinnigheid van de benaming: “morisco” betekent op zich weinig meer dan “moors”; Janssen Perio,o.c., p. 471 n. 19, geeft als letterlijke vertaling van Moriscos: "Moortjes"). Zoals bekend, komt de benaming “Moor” van de naam “Mauri”, d.w.z. de Berberbewoners van de Romeinse provincie Mauretanië. Het gebruik ervan heeft niet enkel raciale connotaties, nl. van zwarte huidskleur (in werkelijkheid zijn vele Berbers blond en blauwogig), maar beklemtoont ook de Berberse component in de Andaluscultuur. Zie Glick (1979), pp |
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or : |
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Article sees "Moriscos", of G.A.Wiegers, in the EoI, full. VII, fasc. 117-118 (1991), pp. 241-244; but especially L.P.Harvey, The political, social and cultural history or the Moriscos, in: Jayyusi, I (1994), pp. 201-234 (pp. 201-203 concerning the dubbelzinnigheid of the denomination: "morisco" mean in itself a little more than "Moor"; Janssen Perio, o.c., give n. 19 to p. 471 as litteral translation of Moriscos: "Moortjes"). Confessed as, the denomination "moor" comes of the name "Mauri", i.e. the Berberbewoners of the Roman province Mauritania. The use of it does not have only racial connotations, viz. of black skin colour (in reality its vele berbers fair and blue-eyed), but emphasises also the berberse component in the Andaluscultuur. See Glick (1979), pp |
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source :http://www.flwi.ugent.be/cie/RUG/deley21_3.htm |
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"...The word Moors derives from the Latin mauri..." source : http://www.spanish-fiestas.com/andalucia/history-moorish-spain.htm |
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you know that there a one word for Moor or Mauri in arabic. ] 14:11, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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The word "Moor" '''derives from''' the word Mauri (as the article already notes) just as the word Berber '''derives from''' the word Barbarian. Does that imply that "Berber" and "barbarian" mean the same thing? - ] 20:47, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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Yes , it mean the same , if you call me berber. and that is the reason why we don't use berber ,well amazigh. the difference between mauri and moor is so : mauri is latin and moor is dutch and english and arabic ... |
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therfor you can improve the article . and i did give you the needed source. but i don't think it.] 10:38, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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] '''derives from''' ]. Do ''those'' mean the same thing? - ] 19:08, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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] '''derives from''' a word meaning "foreigner". Do those mean the same thing? - ] 19:12, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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i don't know , i know that Mauri is Moor and differnce is : Muri is latin and Moor is germanic and arabic ... such as Français and Frensh. |
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but that is a good reason to not write the correct article.] 10:42, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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according to mustafaa is Mauri not Moor . and the article about the Mauri is not the article woch would be about the Moors. |
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if that is realy so ,then i ill write an other article about the Mauri's . but i have firstly to ask an other users . because i m sure that ] just the latin name for the ]s (not latin ) such as français and Frensh. if i'm not right ,then i will the other articles about the Mauri's . and therfor i have the source of two prof. ] 10:59, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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: If you want to write an article on the ], go for it! Read ] first, that has a good start. - ] 17:36, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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'''Maures'''('''Moor''')(germ. ]) is the same as '''Moor'''(germ. ] but has not the same meaning in germany. Mohr is assoziated with Black/Brown People from africa since the colonial times:<br> |
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translated by altavista:<br> |
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With the term Mohr (Latin: maurus = Maure, english moor) designated one originally a Mauren, since these become quite dark membranous by sun effect, associated one with them also the black African. The Mauren controlled since the 8. Century the iberian peninsula and are even half-breeds from Berbern and negriden peoples of west Africa. Mohr applies today like also negroes as discriminating. In this connection also: Mohrenkopf, Mohr of Moerlau, Mohr of Venice<br> |
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Idiom: The Mohr did its work, to which Mohr can go. (the Mohr Muley Hassan, the Mohr of Tunis, in Schillers "The conspiracy of the Fiesco to Genua") |
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Langenscheidt, our usual dictonary in germany, translates:<br> |
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germ. -> engl. : |
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Maure Moor |
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Mohr Moor, blackamoor, negro |
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engl. -> germ. : |
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Moor Maure; Mohr |
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''] '''derives from''' ]. Do ''those'' mean the same thing? ''<br> |
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take a look at ] |
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--] 07:40, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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==Heraldry== |
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Should discuss Moors in heraldry. --] 22:11, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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== Reference == |
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Shouldn't there be a note on this page saying that the term "Moor", in some references, could also just mean "Muslim", "Arab", or "African"?--] 23:36, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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See ]. I tried merging all this stuff about Muslim Spain into ] and making this ], but someone else disagreed. - ] 21:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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On March 23, 2005, I made an edit inserting the following reference: ''Some scholars propose that the characterization of the Islamic civilization in Iberia as "Moorish" is a ] which implies the predominance of Berber traits in the civilization, rather than Arab and Islamic ones. The Muslim conquest of Iberia was undertaken by Arab ]. The soldiery of the first wave of invasions was derived predominantly of Berber peoples of North Africa.'' That satisfies some of your concerns, I think. --] 22:51, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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==True Romance?== |
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Anyone here seen ]? There's a dialogue scene about the moors and their part in italian history. Is this true? If so, I think it should be included in this article because it's very interesting. If it's not true, then I think it should be included as well, but explained that it's bogus/fiction |
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*]|] 23:46, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC) |
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:: - The claims in True Romance are nonsense. The moslems who occupied Sicily for two centuries were overwhelmingly Semitic Arabs, and to a lesser extent North African Berbers, not black Africans. ] 09:03, 21 May 2005 (UTC) |
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== NPOV Challenge: Afrocentrist slant == |
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This article seems to have a somewhat Afrocentrist slant. The Moors who occupied Spain and other parts of Europe were, from an anthropological point of view, overwhelmingly Arab (Semitic, Near Eastern origin) and North African Berbers, not Sub Saharan blacks, as is often asserted by Afrocentrists. Also I request documentation or else removal of the following questionable claim made in the article: |
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"... The Webster's New World Dictionary identifies Moors as "a member of Moslem people of mixed Arab and Berber descent." This deletion of "black" or "Negro" from the term Moor is generally recent. Though the word "Moor" originally seems to have been meant to indicate Blacks, it in time came to be applied to Muslims in general, especially the Berbers. " |
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It seems tome that ] 09:02, 21 May 2005 (UTC) |
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== RE: Afrocentrist Slant == |
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"It seems tome that [precisely th eopposite is true - that the Moors have historically been understood to be Moslems of Arab Semitic and North African Berber stock, not black Africans. The idea of Moors as black Africans is what is recent." |
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I would have to say that I respectfully disagree with this statement. |
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I do not believe that the depiction of Moors as dark-skinned or "black Africans" is recent. |
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The evidence suggest that Afro-Arab Muslims were all Moors. |
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There is a book published in 1902 entitled "The Moors" which is full of photographs of Moors, many of them dark-skinned. |
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There are also many postcards from North Africa in the late 1800's early 1900's which show dark-skinned people as Moors. |
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In addition to that there are books from the 1700's and early 1800's which have drawings of the Moors, many of them being shown as dark-skinned. |
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Lastly there is even Christopher Columbus' own writings which document encounters with dark-skinned Muslims. Not just the Moors of Grenada, but also Moors in the area of what is now Jamaica. |
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: No offense, but try visiting Morocco or Mauritania sometime. Darker-skinned than Europeans, yes; black, clearly not. - ] 29 June 2005 17:38 (UTC) |
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::Have any of you read ''Othello''? Othello is a 'Moor' and is regularly described in terms that suggest 'negroid' features: thick lips, 'sooty' face etc. The term Moor was often merged with notions of blackness in the Renaissance/17th C period. At this time the expression blackamoor ] was often used to clarify the notion of the 'black moor'. I think these perceptions should be discussed. ] 08:07 30 June 2005 (UTC) |
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"I do not believe that the depiction of Moors as dark-skinned or "black Africans" is recent." --I would have to say I agree. Writings from 16th & 17th century Europe prove this. Mustafaa, the reason you do not see as many "black" Moroccans in Morocco today is because Arabs have taken over and have been controlling much of North Africa for years. The African "moors" are certainly a marginalized group, today, in their own country (as are many Africans in their respective countries). You can see mostly Arabs in Egypt as well, but the Egyptians of ancient dynastic Egypt were certainly not Arabs--this is proven by ancient historians such as the Greek Herodotus "father of history" and also artwork from the times. Meditteranean Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East have always been closely connected and have certainly been integrating for thousands of years (only more recently, in human history, have we suffered the setbacks of racism.) Anyway, my point is that the natives of North Africa were certainly "black Africans" though integration and, even, imperialism have been the reality for years. We could take this all the way back to the scientific arguement of "Lucy" and the theory that all people originated in Africa, anyway--but I don't think this is necessary. ~Olga |
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Hi all and specifically Mustafaa, |
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I HAVE visited those places, and I have tons of friends that are from both Morocco and Mauritania. They come, as do most speakers of Arabic, in many many different colors. Yes, the Arabs came to N. Africa, and of course they mixed with the people. That is the normal and logical conclusion, that there are elements of Arab and African culture in the culture of North Africa which came to be known in the West as Moorish culture. On an interesting side note, I myself am bi-racial, half Euro-American, half African-American, and I am often mistaken for Mauritanian or Moroccan *BY OTHER MEMBERS OF THOSE COUNTRIES*. That might be something to think about.... |
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Nourah |
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Shakespeare was no anthropologist, and "dark-skinned" isn't synonymous with negroid. Large numbers of blacks were brought north over the Sahara during the Arabic slave trade, which explains the black presence today. It appears that there were sub-Saharans present in Moorish society, but the Moors themselves weren't black Africans. Some artwork and arguments: , -- jugbo |
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==Moors/Mauri/Moroccans/Blackamoors etc== |
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OK, I wrote the above comment before I'd looked into the edit history of this article and of ]. As ] and others have already pointed out, the latter article is pretty poor. I think the best thing would be to merge it with this one to create a more substantial discussion of the history of the word and its meanings. It seems that ] was created in July 2004 when this article had an earlier Neutality Dispute notice slapped on it. I guess the intention was to separate the "racial" debate from the account of the history of the Moorish kingdoms. I think that was a bad decision, creating a garbled dumping-ground of an article at ] and a stubby thin one here. The article before July 2004 gave a clearer sense of the meanings of the word. |
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I propose that the two articles be merged so that a proper discusion of the ''range'' of meanings of the word can be included in a single article. That way, the complex usage of "moor" in ''Othello'' and elsewhere can be discussed, along with later usages such as ]'s. These more modern usages can then be properly placed in relation to ancient ones, avoiding complaints of censorship, Afrocentrism etc etc. ] 15:01 30 June 2005 (UTC) |
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: I agree they should be merged. to remove the unnecessary historical info from this article, sticking it into ], and make this article about the various meanings attached to the term; however, somebody else decided that the meaning "Muslims of Spain" should be primary. - ] 1 July 2005 02:30 (UTC) |
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: As a Moroccan I agree that the second part of the article is complete BS. There is no European Moors in my view, Moroccans are in fact a complex mixture of Mediteraneans, Europeans, people from the Middle East and Black. I think that ''Moors'' is an old mediaval word which can't be applied to modern day populations. Medieval ''Moors'' was in fact at that time synonym with Muslims, than actually means ]s and ]s. Moors ''are not'' present day Mauritanians, ''Mauritania'' is a word coined by the French when they invaded that country probably because the Berber dynasty ] which established itself in ] and later invaded ] came following a fuzzy tradition from an Island in the ] south of present day Mauritania hence the big confusion.--] 22:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== Moor = Black African? == |
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Well, according to the artwork that they themselves created and DNA studies, the answer would be NO. |
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To view these artworks please go here: http://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html |
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The DNA reports: |
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"An extensive bibliographic search was conducted to compile all available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations. The data were then synthesized to reconstruct the population's demographic history using principal components analysis and genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. Both analyses identified an east-west pattern of genetic variation in northern Africa pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Libya and Egypt are also the smallest genetic distances away from European populations. Demic diffusion during the Neolithic period could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe through a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, but a Mesolithic or older differentiation of the populations into the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand this genetic picture. Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers, the most isolated groups, were the most differentiated, while Arab speakers overall are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. The genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small." |
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(Bosch et al., Hum Biol, 1997) |
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Caucasoid mtDNA (maternal) sequences, labeled L3E and U6, were detected at frequencies of 96% in Moroccan Berbers, 82% in Algerian Berbers and 78% in non-Berber Moroccans, compared with only 4% in a Senegalese population. |
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(Rando et al., Ann Hum Genet, 1998) |
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:Medieval illuminations are not good evidence of anything concerning race, but in any case, you miss the point. This is not about trying to prove that North Africans were black or were white. Yes, there are, mainly US-based, Afrocentrists who ''do'' try to prove the former, and there are others who react strongly against the claim for various reasons (both sensible and not-so commendable). But the question is whether we should discuss ''full range'' of the meanings and history of the word Moor here, which would allow for these debates to be made more meaningful and more richly explored by being put under one heading. It would also, I hope, help to avoid neutrality disputes. |
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:And it wasn't just in English that Moor meant 'dark skinned'. It did so elsewhere in Renaissance Europe too. It was tied to negative colour symbolism and theories about ] descent. ] 10:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC) |
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Maurii is derived from Latin and Greek with a slight difference in spelling and both mean black. The Romans had encountered Egyptians who were clearly of African but did not apply Maur to thme nomenclaturelly, nor did they apply these terms to the much darker Semitic peoples of the middle east yet applied it to those of the Northeast region of African. Berber derived from the Arabic word Barbar and therefore did not exist at the time the Romans conquered Carthage and divided that entire region into two Roman kingdoms. The Romans, therefore did not use the word Maurii because the people were a little darker than themselve, which, again, they had encounter for centuries with other dark peoples, but instead use this word because these people were clearly black and not tanned as many middle eastern people were during there day. It stands to reason that with the exception of Egypt and Nubia (Ethiopia) which already had centuries old established empires the Romans would have label other darker complexed people whom the came into contact with Maurii long before do so with the people of Northeast Africa when one considers that these other people were noticeable darker than the Romans via a tan or amalgamation. The people of Northeast Africa were of the African stock and the Romans being notorious for naming a land by it's terran or people gave every indication of that when they selectively and deliberated used this word to describe the people of Northeast Africa and not other dark groups of the middle east. Also, for the record, Maurii was not used until the Romans applied the term. A great chunk of this region was known as Numibia which exist before and concurrently with the Carthage empire which was later ruled by white a caucasoid stock of people. One must look at Northwest Africa even before the Phoenicians arrived and established Carthage which was long before the Punic wars and even longer for the Arab invasions during the 7 AD. |
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:Comments such as the unsigned statements above indicate why it is imperative to discuss the range of meanings here. AFAIK, the standard Greek word for black/dark is "melas", and the standard Latin one is "niger". "Mauro" does appear in ''late'' Greek to mean dark, and ''may'' have derived its meaning from the perceived darker complexion of North Africans, along with other post-Classical European uses of 'Moor' - or it may not have done. But the fact is that the etymology of Mauri is not known for certain. Some sources I've seen suggest a Semitic term for 'Westerner' as the source. We should articulate these issues in the main text. It's also the case that there are also many cases in which terms meaning black or dark have been applied to people whose complexions were only very ''relatively'' darker. ] 18:39, 16 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== On the Racial Issue! == |
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] 23:06, 16 July 2005 (UTC) |
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== Moor racial crap == |
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I have recently returned from the middle east.there are a variety of peoples of diffrent shades and colors,the argument of whether the moors are white or black is due to a lack of pure ignorance on the subject of race other than caucasian,in caucasian culture it is assumed if u look a cetain way thats what ur race ,i find this interesting considering the varietys of peoples that exist within the european ethnic groups,u have a mediterranian and a scandanavian looking totally diffrent and variations of everything in between,however the african ethnic group dosent seem to possess that capacity from your point of view, what exactly is the marker for blackness any way the nap of your hair? the width of your lips?dosent sound very scientific to me,the link u provided is to a site that promotes an antiquated view of race,the author" charelton s.coon " was considered a promoter of "scientific racsism".current genetic testing proves that humans are much closer genetically than ever imagined back in the 1940's(id like to think that scientifically weve come a long way since then ,i mean if u want to be a computer scientist u dont read a textbook from 1947 would u? you would never get your degree that way)I believe the best modern paralell would be with that of the populations of present day puerto rico or brazil,thats probably the best way to classify the moors,there are some familys in these areas where the children of the same two parents look as if they were of diffrent races,but still possess characteristics of both parents,this is a more realistic view of race in areas where many ehtnic groups meet.there is not a particullarly "white" puerto rican or "black "puerto rican.Its a mixed culture. |
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== From Spain == |
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I am spanish. |
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There is a generalization about the use of the term "Moros" (Moors in english) along the history of Spain. |
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Since the times of "El Cid" is used the term "moros" for every foreign and muslim people from Northern Africa and Middle West in the Spain of VII-XV centuries. |
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It does not matter if they are arabs, turkish, morocan or from every Magreb because all of them are considered moors in Spain since "Cid" Times. |
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This does not mean about this is the real origin of the name of the correct use of the term. This only reveal the generalization about the use of the term "moors". |
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Actually, the "Real Acadamia Española de la Lengua" ( Spanish Royal Academy of the Language ) say this word come from the latin word "maurus" and consider the use of this word for: |
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1 People from the Northern Africa next to Spain. |
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2. Everything coming from this place. |
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3. Who profess islamic religion |
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4. Muslim who lived in Spain since VII century to the XV century. |
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5. Everything from this age. |
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6. People from Mindanao or Malasya Islands. |
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7..... A Kind of horse. |
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You can see this searching "moro" in http://www.rae.es or here http://buscon.rae.es/diccionario/drae.htm. |
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Moroccan people says "moors are people from Mauritania" but their ancients are moors too because when they were droped out of Spain they gone to live in Morocco, Algeria, Mauritania... |
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:''Moroccan people says "moors are people from Mauritania" '' : Sorry but this completly false, most Moroccan people have probably never heard of that word as this a medieval term, those who have certainly don't confuse them with Mauretanians, please see my answer to the topic: ''Moors/Mauri/Moroccans/Blackamoors etc''. On the other hand people who came to Morocco from ] in fact ] are perfectly aware of that, and I can assure you that they are very proud of it, they once composed the Moroccan elite, though this is slowly changing now--] 23:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== African Berbers == |
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The Berber gene pool is LARGELY EAST AFRICAN ORIGIN 75% it is about 13% middle eastern and 4% european an almost non-existant trace of "european blood" just look up the article "BERBER" in wikipedia it has a link on that article page that a stanford team genetically tested them, (bosch et al.2001) |
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Academic sources clearly name both Abu Yusuf of the Benimerines and al Murtada of the Almohades.
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