| Revision as of 19:34, 31 October 2009 editAnti-Nationalist (talk | contribs)1,619 edits Termer, please don't edit war in order to remove people's concerns from talk. Undid revision 323030045 by Termer (talk)← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 02:20, 18 February 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,297,511 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 4 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "Start" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject Estonia}}, {{WikiProject Australia}}, {{WikiProject Women's History}}.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
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{{Old AfD multi| date = 23 November 2009 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = Lia Looveer }} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|living=no|listas=Looveer, Lia|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=low|needs-photo=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Estonia|importance=low}} |
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|listas= Looveer, Lia |
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{{WikiProject Australia|importance=Low|NSW=yes|history=yes|politics=yes|politics-importance=low|NSW-importance=low}} |
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{{WikiProject Women's History}} |
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{{WikiProject Estonia|class=stub|importance=low}} |
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{{WP Australia|class=Stub|importance=Low}} |
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regarding ''.'' by Anti-Nationalist. |
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Well, it is a Baltic organization in Australia, not an Australian organization per se. FFI please see the State library of New South Wales: , + Lia Looveer was .--] (]) 05:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== ] edit warring over category == |
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] thinks the ] is based upon ethnicity, but it is in fact based upon nationality. As far as I know Lia Looveer was a dual Australian/Estonian national. --] (]) 03:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC) |
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: Actually, I rather expected it might be both, as the "Lists of..." Estonians, Latvian, and Lithuanians include both. ] <small>]]</small> 13:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC) |
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: ] (whoever might that be?) doesn't think ] is based upon ethnicity, descent, or birth location. He thinks it is based on nationality, here meaning where the person actively participates in politics , although Vecrumba apparently thinks the reverse , Martintg. ;-) If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, ] would be a Dutchman, while ] would be Estonian. ] (]) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::Lia Looveer had dual Australian/Estonian nationality, so what is ] arguing about? --] (]) 22:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::He means that she wasn't active in Estonian politics, as he explained. Croatian Prime Minister ] is a dual Croatian-French citizen, but he's not a "French politician" because of it. ] (]) 22:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::´´If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, ] would be a Dutchman, while ] would be Estonian. ] (]) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)´´ - funny, I never knew ] was Estonian. Ever heard of ]? --] ] 17:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: He was a Baltic German, born in Estonia. C'mon, Miacek{{ndash}}I never claimed that he was Estonian and wouldn't describe him as one despite his being born in Reval (Tallinn), which is why the analogy was used. That's the whole point: you classify an individual as an "X-ian politician" if said individual is active in politics in country "X." Any other classification, whether by birth or descent, is non-sensical, which is why presenting Theodore Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" and Alfred Rosenberg an Estonian Nazi figure would be a stupid way of classifying people. It's the invalidity of this sort of categorization that I've been illustrating. ] (]) 18:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::I can't see how any of this nonsense about Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" is related to the subject unless Roosevelt was an active member of Dutch political organizations in the US like Looveer was an active member of Estonian political organizations in Australia.--] (]) 00:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== Was Looveer a Nazi collaborator? == |
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Wasn't she a Nazi collaborator? According to this link , Looveer, worked for Baltic Radio in Nazi Germany, 1944-45. I wonder why her son had no need to hide this sort of thing. I am also wondering if the Australian public was largely aware of this fact. ] (]) 02:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:Misplaced Pages describes ] as <blockquote>the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government.</blockquote> I don't think a case (one out of thousands) of a Baltic person having fled the country as the Soviet occupants seized the land and then working for some months for a rather unknown German radio warrants the label 'Nazi collaborator'. Similarly, chairmen of minor ]es in the ESSR aren't usually described as Soviet collaborators. --] ] 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::I don't know if the station was propaganda or not. Did Nazi Germany seemply broadcast Baltic Radio for the fun of it? Maybe. That's why I asked. And a collaborator is somebody who collaborates with an occupier. Even the initially pro-German Juri Uluots (claiming the mantle of Estonia's legitimate ruler during the Nazi occupation) got his Estonian supporters fighting Germans by 1944, while Lia Loover went to Germany and worked for this mysterious broadcaster in 1944-45, so I think the description seems fitting. Explain? ] (]) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== Diller redux == |
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Anti-Nationalist nèe PasswordUsername, please present evidence that "Baltic Radio" was a Nazi radio station and not a Baltic (language, I would presume) radio station operating from Germany. That something operated in Germany during the war does not automatically make that something a Nazi enterprise. Are you here to create content or to smear a dead Estonian? (Per your openly leading question starting as: "<u>'''Wasn't she'''</u> a Nazi collaborator?", your innuendo "wondering" about her son having "no need to hide", "wondering" about the Australian public.) ] <small>]]</small> 17:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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The passage quoted by Pantherskin does not exist in Diller's book. Additionally, per the author's correspondence, his book contains all of one sentence with reference to ''Sendergruppe Ostland'' which included Estonia—and not on pages 405-406. FYI, I've ordered the entire set (of which Diller's is volume 2). ]<small> ►]</small> 02:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:Besides that ] is awarded for meritorious civil or military service worthy of recognition by the ]. I'm surprised that PU wasn't "wondering" about the validness of my relative being decorated with that medal. --] ] 17:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:I'm just wondering about this, Vecrumba. Thanks for assuming good faith. ] (]) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:: I only observed the manner in which you asked your question. ''Constructively asked questions'' are always taken to be in good faith. Questions asked in the form of accusatory innuendo are not. Enough said on this and elsewhere. ] <small>]]</small> 18:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC) |
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Unless it's shown promptly how exactly is this smearing related to a discussion about "improving the article", I'm gong to remove this chapter from the talk page shortly. Thanks for understanding! --] (]) 00:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:It's not smearing: it's a question I'm asking because I'd like to know about Looveer's work in Germany and if there's any further information I might be able to look at. It is a relevant question because I was wondering about adding her to category Nazi collaborators, as she ''prima facie'' appears to have been a real collaborator with the Nazi authorities, even going from Estonia to Germany and then working on what appears to have been a propaganda radio station (I don't think Baltic Radio Germany was broadcast into Estonia in 1944-45 for fun and profit). ] (]) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC) |
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The passage quoted by Pantherskin does not exist in Diller's book. Additionally, per the author's correspondence, his book contains all of one sentence with reference to Sendergruppe Ostland which included Estonia—and not on pages 405-406. FYI, I've ordered the entire set (of which Diller's is volume 2). PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
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