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==Initiation of Mediation== | |||
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== Initiation of Mediation == | |||
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Welcome to the mediation for ]. I have reviewed the case and the preliminary discussion to the point where I feel comfortable with this case proceeding; further, all 3 "main" parties have indicated acceptance along with ALL of the others who are currently online. After many years of disputes, it is finally time this is put to rest. Using the issues presented and the policies of Misplaced Pages as my guide, I hope to guide all of you to a resolution that is fair and reasonable. I feel like the process the Mediation Committee uses for these matters is a good standard to follow. Below is a series of Ground Rules that I would like all parties to sign on to in the same edit that they add their opening statement. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. | Welcome to the mediation for ]. I have reviewed the case and the preliminary discussion to the point where I feel comfortable with this case proceeding; further, all 3 "main" parties have indicated acceptance along with ALL of the others who are currently online. After many years of disputes, it is finally time this is put to rest. Using the issues presented and the policies of Misplaced Pages as my guide, I hope to guide all of you to a resolution that is fair and reasonable. I feel like the process the Mediation Committee uses for these matters is a good standard to follow. Below is a series of Ground Rules that I would like all parties to sign on to in the same edit that they add their opening statement. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions. | ||
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# Always work to find common ground rather than ways to support your, and only your point. | # Always work to find common ground rather than ways to support your, and only your point. | ||
# Do not make edits to the page that would contravene these discussions. Essentially, any issue in dispute, once resolved, may then be changed on the article page. Trying to argue on the page during this discussion would contravene these proceedings. | # Do not make edits to the page that would contravene these discussions. Essentially, any issue in dispute, once resolved, may then be changed on the article page. Trying to argue on the page during this discussion would contravene these proceedings. | ||
Rules adopted 3/25/10 | |||
The mediator reserves the right to: | |||
# cut short any discussion that starts to wander across multiple issues, or that rehashes old grievances. | |||
# force compromises by fiat where there is stolid disagreement on trivial issues | |||
# enforce a one strike civility rule, where civility is used in a narrow sense which prohibits all commentary about other editors that might possibly be interpreted as pejorative, in my best estimation. basically this means I will tolerate one mild incivility over any three day period, and if you commit two, I will bench you for three days - no posting on this page or any related page until I give the go ahead. | |||
Stay clear, stay focused, stay concise, and '''do not comment on other editors''' if you wish to continue to participate in this mediation. | |||
===Acceptance of Groundrules=== | ===Acceptance of Groundrules=== | ||
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*'''Agree''' ] (]) 20:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ] (]) 20:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
*'''Agree''' ]<span style="color:grey;">&</span>] 20:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ]<span style="color:grey;">&</span>] 20:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
*'''Agree''' ] <small>]</small> 20:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ] <small>]</small> 20:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
* '''Agree''' ] (]) 21:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | * '''Agree''' ] (]) 21:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 21:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ] (]) 21:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
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*'''Agree''' ] (]) 00:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ] (]) 00:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
*'''Agree''' ] | ] 18:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | *'''Agree''' ] | ] 18:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | ||
*'''Agree'''] 05:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] 06:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 07:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 09:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 00:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 08:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' --] (]) 10:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 08:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] (]) 04:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
*'''Agree''' ] 11:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
=== Current agreements === | |||
{{quote box|width=40%|title = Currently Resolved|quote = | |||
* '''Fringe issue''' - Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article. | |||
* '''Hereditarian viewpoint''' - The "hereditarian" viewpoint is not "fringe" science, and should not be presented as such in the article. | |||
* '''Race/intelligence link''' - The article will discuss the sources that show there is currently no established genetic link/correlation between race and intelligence, note that the research is inconclusive and ongoing, and give a brief summary of the 'Genes and Intelligence' article (or use other sources) as necessary to give proper balance to genetics-based research. it is understood that this resolved may be subject to clarification as we flesh out the article and sources. | |||
* '''SIRE data''' - All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information. | |||
* '''SIRE & genetic markers''' - Some research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen because they are highly informative of biogeographical ancestry.) | |||
* '''Distribution of phenotypes''' -Research suggests that some genes whose distributions vary between races affect the distribution of phenotypic traits. Obvious examples are skin and eye color; additional examples include blood type, lactase persistence, sensitivity to alcohol, and degree of risk for certain diseases. However, the functions of the majority of these genes remain unknown or poorly understood. | |||
* '''No specific research''' - There is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above. | |||
|source=--] 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
{{quote box|width=40%|title = Currently Proposed as Resolved|quote = | |||
* '''40%-70% of in-group IQ variation''' - Research suggests that 40-70% of the variation in IQ scores within the same population owes to genetic factors. A few specific genes have been identified as likely candidates, but none has been conclusively shown to do so. | |||
* '''1995 APA report''' - The 1995 APA report ''Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns'' is a fair (if dated) presentation of what can be considered the "mainstream" academic view on the issue of race and intelligence. | |||
|source=--] 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
what am I missing in this list? --] 08:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
* {{tick}} Race/intelligence link - The article will discuss the sources that show there is currently no established '''genetic''' link/correlation between race and intelligence, note that the research is inconclusive and ongoing, and give a brief summary of the 'Genes and Intelligence' article (or use other sources) as necessary to give proper balance to genetics-based research. it is understood that this resolved may be subject to clarification as we flesh out the article and sources. ] (]) 13:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I have a few suggestions. | |||
1: {{tick}}'''The hereditarian hypothesis is not “fringe”, either by Misplaced Pages’s standards or any other standard.''' As has been mentioned before, this point is a little different from the point that research into race and intelligence is not “fringe”, and ought to be mentioned separately. | |||
2: I think the following points, regarding the social vs. genetic meanings of race, ought to also be included: | |||
* {{tick}}All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information. | |||
* {{tick}}Some research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen because they are highly informative of biogeographical ancestry.) | |||
* {{tick}}Research suggests that some genes whose distributions vary between races affect the distribution of phenotypic traits. Obvious examples are skin and eye color; additional examples include blood type, lactase persistence, sensitivity to alcohol, and degree of risk for certain diseases. However, the functions of the majority of these genes remain unknown or poorly understood. | |||
* {{tick}}Research suggests that 40-70% of the variation in IQ scores within the same population owes to genetic factors. A few specific genes have been identified as likely candidates, but none has been conclusively shown to do so. | |||
* {{tick}}There is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above. | |||
This is the same list of points that we’ve been discussing for at least a month, and it’s pretty clear by now that just about everyone agrees with it. The one exception to this is the third point, which hasn’t been in this list before, but is a summary of something that almost all users here have stated they agree with in some form. I’m hoping it won’t be controversial to include point #3 here, but if it is, I guess it’s not a big deal if we leave it off for now. --] (]) 20:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I concur with Occam, particularly on the need for his first point. My choice of wording would be as follows: ''The research of so-called "hereditarians" is not "fringe" science, and should not be presented as such in the article.'' This follows directly from our agreement that the best representative of the mainstream view is the APA report, which has no qualms citing the non-controversial findings of Jensen and Lynn as authorities in their field, and does so frequently (cf. "Sternberg's Theory" §2; "Choice Reaction Time" §1; "Schooling" §4; "Group Differences" §1; "African Americans" §1; etc.). --] <small>]</small> 20:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I don’t think I agree with using the word “research” in this context. The reason Ludwig’s need to summarize these points originally came up was because certain users were under the assumption that we were agreed these people’s ''research'' wasn’t “fringe”, but that their ''conclusions'' still might be. Part of what we need to clarify here is that what we’re saying isn’t “fringe” includes not only individual studies (that is, research) but also the hereditarian hypothesis itself. --] (]) 20:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::How does "work" strike you? Or do you specifically want "conclusions" used here? --] <small>]</small> 20:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::alright, what I've done is created a separate box for proposed resolved issues. As other editors check in we can move them from one box to the other. I've used 'hereditarian viewpoint' rather then 'research', but we can piddle with the words. --] 20:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ludwig, your wording for this sounds fine to me. But considering how long we’ve spent resolving some of these points already, as well as the fact that you’ve said you don’t want us to waste any more time rehashing old disputes that have already been resolved, I’m not sure what the point is in waiting for other editors to express their opinions about these points before moving them into the “resolved” box. If other editors have sufficiently expressed their opinions about these points in the discussions during which they were resolved initially, isn’t asking users to express their opinion about them ''again'' just an invitation to re-open the dispute about them? --] (]) 22:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I just prefer not to appear too hasty about it. of course, if someone objects we can always move them back out again, but lets give it the rest of the day for people to comment if they so choose. --] 23:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
An additional point everyone either has been or should be able to agree with: | |||
* {{tick}}The 1995 APA report ''Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns'', though somewhat dated, is a fair presentation of what can be considered the "mainstream" academic view on the issue of race and intelligence. The conclusion reached in this report is that no one knows what causes the one standard deviation differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites, and that both the environmental model and the hereditarian model suffer from a lack of direct empirical support. --] <small>]</small> 08:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I've updated the boxes. as always, let me know if there are any problems, or anything I've missed. --] 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Terms of continued mediation == | |||
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{{archive top| result=I am archiving this thread as is for the next two weeks, when I will reopen it. Tempers have been very high lately, and I prefer not to distract discussion on this page with a fresh, new political debate. There is nothing here we need to worry about for the immediate future. --] 15:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
|status=two week closure}} | |||
You have 2 weeks to show some progress. After that, I will have to close this case. You're in a talk-talk-talk loop, and familiarity breeds contempt. I haven't been paying attention to this, but I just rewatched it. I see TechnoFaye calling SlRubenstein a troll, and general anger all around. Please stop personal attacks, and be civil even if you have to grit your teeth through it. Things are bad enough already. If you continue to insist, I will close this case and you'll basically have the same discussion happening on the article's talk page. | |||
Finally, there's been some concern about representation of viewpoints during this arduous process. If a good outcome happens, bear in mind that edits to the article do not automatically have consensus just because they were discussed here, because not all the "major players" are having a say -- I don't blame them. MedCab is open-ended, and mediators can opt to continue a case even if people drop out or don't participate. So prepare for a likely round 2(^n) in any event. ] (]) 06:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Despite what some users are claiming at AN/I, we haven’t “pushed away” any editors who used to be involved in this article. Some of us have gone out of our ways to try and get more of the people who originally signed into this case to continue participating in it, particularly Alun and Mathsci. (I’m not sure what’s happened with Ramdrake, but I suspect he has real-life issues that are preventing his continued participation at Misplaced Pages.) But both Alun and Mathsci seem to be actively avoiding participation here, even though Mathsci at least is still paying close enough attention to this case to have very strong opinions about what he doesn’t like in it. | |||
:I can understand why it wouldn’t qualify as consensus if a large body of users holding a certain viewpoint were being excluded from the discussion, or weren’t able to participate in it for reasons beyond their control. But what we have here is a few users who are ''voluntarily excluding themselves'' from the discussion, despite our efforts to the contrary, and who now may end up claiming that the outcome isn’t acceptable because their opinions weren’t considered. Well, if they care about the outcome and want their opinions represented in it, shouldn’t they be presenting those opinions in the mediation the way everyone else has been doing? | |||
:If things end up going the way you’re suggesting they might, what this sounds like it means is that there would be a few users aren’t interested in working towards consensus at all (since reaching consensus is the purpose of a mediation case), and would rather just block any efforts to change the article by unilaterally rejecting whatever outcome the rest of us can agree on after we’ve spent several months reaching that agreement. If this actually does end up happening, doesn’t it pretty clearly violate the spirit of how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, as well as policies such as the “Little or no interest in working collaboratively” section of ] and the “Does not engage in consensus building” section of ]? And if so, how could this be an acceptable reason to reject the outcome of mediation? --] (]) 09:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I'd appreciate some elaboration from Xavexgoem regarding "some progress". Apparently we have very different ideas about what constitutes progress: despite our accomplishments, particularly over the last 3 weeks (the resolution of several key points and the production of an outline to be used for our first revision), uninvolved editors continue to berate the mediation as being a waste of time. If making concrete steps towards a major revision is not considered "progress", and we're being threatened with discontinuation if we do not evidence "some progress" within two weeks, I'm quite eager to know just what constitutes "progress" in the eyes of the MedCab. --] <small>]</small> 13:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== The history section == | |||
{{archive top|status=moved|discussion moved to ] with the same header. please continue any debate there. --] 18:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)}} | |||
I have written extra material for the first segment of the history section, using as the initial secondary source the section on "Race Differences in Intelligence" in this textbook: | |||
*{{citation|title= Brief History of Modern Psychology|first=Ludy T. |last=Benjamin|publisher=Wiley-Blackwell|year= 2006|id={{ISBN|140513206X}}|pages= 188-191}} | |||
Ludy Benjamin is one of the foremost historians of psychology. A second segment will follow. ] (]) 10:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{quote box|In !895 R.Meade Bache, ], published an article in ] concerning the reaction times of three population | |||
groups in the USA, with in decreasing order of speed, Native Amricans, African Americans and whites. He explained the slowness of the whites by the fact that their brains were more contemplative and did not function well on primitive tasks. This was one of the first examples of ], in which science is used to bolster beliefs in the superiority of a particular race. | |||
In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in | |||
], characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of verneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, untruthful, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of powere of sustained activity and constructive conduct." | |||
In 1916 George O. Ferguson conducted research in his Columbia Ph.D. thesis on "The psychology of the Negro", finding them poor in abstract thought, but good in physical responses, recommending how this should be reflected in education. | |||
==Opening Statements== | |||
===Rules and Content of Statements=== | |||
1. Your statement will only be accepted if you soon thereafter add your acceptance of the groundrules posted above. | |||
In 1916 ], in the manual accompanying the | |||
2. Your statement should address 1) the construction of the dispute in your opinion, 2) the nature of the dispute as it has progressed, 3) the outcome you originally seek coming into this mediation , 4) Misplaced Pages Policies that come into play in your opinion, 5) proposed ways to resolve the issue or points of mutual agreement that could begin an objective process to a resolution | |||
], referred to the higher frequency of ]s among non-white American racial groups stating that further research into race difference on intelligence should be conducted and that the "enormously significant racial differences in general intelligence" could not be remedied by education. | |||
In the 1920's psychologists started questioning underlying assumptions of racial differences in intelligence; although not discounting them, the possibility was considered that they were on a smaller scale than previously supposed and also due to factors other than heredity. | |||
3. Follow groundrules in not attacking other participants and acting in Good Faith | |||
In 1924 ] wrote in his book | |||
"Social Psychology" that the French sociologist ] was incorrect in asserting "a gap between inferior and superior species" and pointed to "social inheritance" and "environmental factors" as factors that accounted for differences. | |||
Nevertheless he conceded that "the intelligence of the white race is of a more versatile and complex order than that of the black race. It is probably superior to that of the red or yellow races." | |||
In 1929 ] in his textbook on psychology made no claims about innate differences in intelligence between races, pointing instead to environmental and cultural factors. He considered it advisable to "suspend judgement and keep our eyes open from year to year for fresh and more conclusive evidence that will probably be discovered". | |||
4. Seperate your statement by a <nowiki>===</nowiki> | |||
In 1935 Otto Klineberg wrote two books "Negro Intelligence and Selective Migration" and "Race Differences", dismissing claims that African Americans in the northern states were more intelligent than those in the south. He concluded that there was no scientific proof of racial differences in intelligence and that this should not therefore be used as a justification for policies in education or employment. In the 1940s many psychologists, particularly social psychologists, conceded that enviromental and cultural factors, as well as discrimination and prejudice, provided a more probable explanation of disparities in intelligence. According to Franz Samelson's analysis in 1978, this change in attitude had become widespread by then, with very few studies in race differences in intelligence, a change brought out by an increase in the number of psychologists not from a "lily-white ... Anglo-Saxon" background but from Jewish backgrounds. Other factors that influenced American psychologists were the Nazi claims of a master race and the economic changes brought about by the depression. | |||
Cheers! ] (]) 20:41, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
Despite these changes in the way most American psychologists approach race and intelligence, there is still a small and vocal group, led by ] and ] who continue to insist that racial differences in intelligence exist and cannot be explained solely through environmental or cultural factors. The psychologist-historian Graham Richards has described this continued concern with race and intelligence as a "peculiarly American obsession".<ref>{{citation|title="It's an American thing": the race and intelligence thing from a British perspective|series= Defining intelligence: race and racism in the history of American psychology (ed. A. Winston)|year=2004| | |||
===] Statement === | |||
first=Graham|last=Richards|publisher=] |page=157}}</ref>}} | |||
{{reflist}} | |||
:Nonsense. You're misrepresenting the fact that current consensus is agnosticism, and that, if anything an approximately 50% genetic etiology probably has more support among experts than 100% environmental. I prefer David's history, without your changes. ] (]) 11:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
The fact that there has been an ongoing dispute for over three years, with a changing cast of characters, proves one thing: this is not a "personal behavior" problem involving a breakdown of communication or trolling. I point this out because I know this is how most disputes at WP are viewed by the community, and most of our conflict resolution mechanisms are meant to resolve these kinds of disputes. I obviously have no clue about how to resolve this dispute, I tried at least twice (in 2006 and in 2008) to mediate conflicts between especially active editors and achieved nothing. All I know is, the root of this problem is not really a conflict between specific individual editors, that is just the form it takes. At stake here is not resolving a specific dispute among names parties; at stake is creating a relatively stable article that is organized in a way to sustain fruitful edits and not - as has always happened in the past - fall back into dissention. ''This is in my view the desired outcome: a stable article future editors can contribute to without getting mired in the same debates that have overwhelmed it almost since its inception'' | |||
::Ahem, this is just a summary of what the source says. It does not say at all what you claim it says. It is additional material, not an alternative. It is just the first part of the additional history. The rest is more complicated to write and will use further sources. Unless you can find fault with this source, which is written by a distinguished historian of psychology, what point is there in you simply writing ]? Unfortunately your way is not the way wikipedia articles are edited. If you have a problem with either Ludy Benjamin or Graham Richards, or their publsihers, please say so. The book by Benjamin has had excellent reviews from what I can tell. Since this is additional material and properly sourced, might it possible for you to find a more constructive way of discussing content in future? Thanks, ] (]) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::I think it is relevant to show that the race intelligence debate has its roots in scientific racism and the eugenics theories of the early twentieth century - that is an important part of why the debate is so contentious. It is also relevant to mention that race intelligence research is almost entirely based in the US. ] 12:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::The race intelligence debate has been going on since time immemorial. Take a look at ]. Researchers are not just from the US (Rushton, probably the most prominent current researcher, is Canadian/British) and they use data from all over the world. ] (]) 14:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
I think there are '''two''' key issues here. '''The first is the charge of racist science.''' No one is questioning that one component accounting for human intelligence is genetic - genes account of an amount of variance among members of the same group (which could conceivably be humanity as a whole). There is some debate over what the percentage is, but this debate is not controvercial because race is not an issue. The problem is when someone says that half of the diference in IQ between Blacks and Whites is genetic is tantamount to saying, Blacks are ''inherently'' inferior. There is a documented history of beliefs like this being used in social policy and in politics to discriminate against Blacks, for example, denying them the right to vote at certain times in certain places. The reason that many scientists now view this as "racist science" is because it is now clear that the methods used to establish the claim that Blacks are inherently inferior were deeply flawed if not fraudulent. This is a simple matter of history and the article on race and intelligence needs to include it - so far I do not think I have said anything controversial. | |||
:::::: I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism. Stating that a group mean difference exists on IQ test scores is empirical fact-- not racism. Stating that RT differences exist across races and that these differences map on to IQ differences is empirical fact-- not racism. Data are neutral; only the explanation for the data can be racist. If I claim these differences are real but due to massive test bias and poorer environments for minorities, is that racist? If one claimed the difference is due to the inherent inferiority of the minority as part of god's great plan-- well, that's probably racist. But, just describing empirical peer-reviewed data cannot be racist. Whether claiming part of the difference is genetic may or may not be racist (i.e., what if it's true?).] (]) 15:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
The controvery begins when we discuss whether Jensen Rushton, and Murray and Hernstein be included in the section on racist science. I repeat that this charge rests on two thigs, first on the fact that the claim that Blacks are inherently inferior to Whites is racist, and second, that the claim is based on bad science. ''There is no doubt that many scholars have accused them of racist science, but other scientists have defended them.'' The charge of "bad science" rests heavily on the fact that Rushton and others have at times misused the concept (which comes from a different academic discipline) of "heritability." I think this is a controversy the article needs to cover in a dispassionate way: some accuse them of racist science, some have defended them. I think editors have found it difficult to come to a consensus way to cover this debate in the article. | |||
::::::::I am not arguing that modern peer reviewed studies of correlations between race and intelligence is scientific racism (or that describing those studies is racism)- I am saying that it is relevant to contextualise this research into the tradition of eugenics and pseudo scientific staments of inherent inferiority of certain racial groups from which it originated - because this context is exactly the reason that it is so controversial today.] 15:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
'''The second is the question of majority, minority, or fringe view''' and here I think people editing the page need real guidance as to Misplaced Pages's criteria for "fringe." The ''problem'' is that these words (majority versus fringe) are essentially relative. We are obviously not talking about "popular views" - most Americans or Canadians may believe Blacks are inherently inferior, or may believe Blacks and Whites are inherently equal, and these facts might be relevant to a section on "popular beliefs." When we talk about fringe science versus majority or mainstream science, obviously we mean among a group of scientists. And one place where we need help is in determining which group. We could say, "among the group of scientists research race, heredity and IQ." The problem is, this really ''is'' the group that is accused of being fringe. We do not want to end up with a tautology "All researchers who agree with Rushton agree with Rushton" - that ''does not'' help us sort out this mainstream versus ringe problem. Of course all researchers who believe Blacks are inherently inferior to Whites, at least to some degree, are going to agreee with one another. This is what is at issue with the ''Wall Street Journal'' advertisement. This was a statement of 50+ scientists posted as a paid editorial in ''The Wall Street Journal'' attesting that Blacks are - to some degree - intellectually inferior to Whites. One ''major'' dispute is: do the signatories of this ad ''prove'' that this view is "majority" or "mainstream?" '''Or''', is this the very question: ''are'' the signatories to this ad fringe or mainstream? Some editors seem to think that the signatories to the ad represent all or most experts on the question, therefore the ad necessarily represents the mainstream view. Other editors believe this group is fringe (which is one reason why they had to express their views through a paid ad, or by citing one another, or by publishing in journals supported by the Pioneer fund or edited by one another). | |||
Maunus once again puts his finger on the key point: putting ''views'' in ''context.'' BPesta says, "I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism." Bryan, - and I am speaking to you editor to editor - there is no need for confusion. We are not saying that these studies '''are''' scientific racism. We are saying that one view holds that these studies are valid scientific research and another view holds that they are scientific racism." We are notsaying anything ''as such'' about the research. We are providing the views that are out there. Now, if one of us ''personally'' disagrees with one viee, or even does not understand one view, well, what can I say? Everyone has their own opinion. We ''do'' have to strive to present each view accurately and as clearly as possible, so if you do not understand that view maybe you can point out places where more information would make our account clearer. But whether any of us personally understands a view or likes it, well, that just is not relevant. Using that as a standard for what we include in this article will only ensure that the article violates ]. ] | ] 19:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
Those who consider the ad to be a fringe view, and the signatories to be espousers of a fringe view, have to demonstrate that (1) there are other scientists who have expertise on the topic and (2) they hold other views. Many of the signatories ar psychologists, and some people have forwarded the APA statement. This is an ''official'' statement of the American Psychological Association, but those who consider the WSJ ad to be mainstream claim that this statemnt represents the views only of those who wrote it (which is fewer than 50) which makes the statement fringe. We are having a similar debate over the AAA (American Anthropological Association; anthropology is the principal discipline that studies "race") and AAPA (American Association of Physical Anthropologists; this is a field of anthropology that specializes on human genetic variation) statements - do the officials of these organizations represent their disciplines, or only themselves? | |||
Finally, Rushton and Jensen are psychologists. Psychology is not the academic discipline that specializes in the study of heredity. Two academic disciplines are relevant: Physical Anthropologists who study population genetics are principal experts on human hereditary. Evolutionary Biologists are also experts on heredity. Have any of these scientists established the degree to which intellectual diferences between Blacks and Whites is genetic? Some editors argue that these views are essential to deciding if Rushton and the WSJ ad is fringe or mainstream. | |||
:Still mulling this over and happy to comply with whatever rules wiki uses. But-- perhaps I am biased-- reading this history section gives one the impression that it's a foregone conclusion that Jensen et al. are raving loons motivated by racism. At the very least, it makes it seem like the whole area is junk science, even if the environmental hypothesis is completely true. | |||
To be clear: Rather than taking an ''a priori'' position that there are "two sides" to this issue (e.g. hereditarian vs. non-hereditarian), we should begin by looking at multiple approaches to the question - biology, cultural anthropology, physical anthropology, psychology, sociology, etc. and find out how ''they'' view the question, ''how many'' significant views are there and ''how they'' understand the differences among these views. It is my sense that ''some'' scientists see this as a debate with two sides. I am not sure all scientists view it this way. | |||
:I'm guessing one could easily find books / articles, etc. claiming the very worst about people who do research in this area (again this reminds me of the Gottfredson article I linked to somewhere here). I'm trying to strike a balance in my mind between giving these guys too much credit versus letting them be dismissed outright as cranks, since there is now about 100 years of data on this gap. For example, I much prefer the Hunt criticisms to the Nisbett ones. I've seen two examples here of Nisbett's arguments and have not been impressed (understood that my opinion doesn't matter for what the final draft is; just expressing my opinion). | |||
I think these are the core issues that need mediation. | |||
:Slru-- sorry for shortening your name as Slu, and thanks for your comment re my editing question. ] (]) 20:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
From one perspective, these disputes should be resolvable based on strict adherance to ] and ]. However, when it comes to identifying wha is a fringe view, you need to know what fields of science are involved in the claim that "Blacks are to some degree inherently inferior to Whites, intellectually." Rushton and Jensen are psychologists, but anthropologists and sociologists who study race, and biologists and anthropologists who study human genetics, also claim expertise. I think having a clear sense of ''which'' academic discipline has ''how much'' expertise over ''what'' is also essential. This question is at the heart of the dispute, and in my experience no mediation can be successful unless it can find criteria all parties agree are objective and neutral for answering this question. | |||
:eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions). Examples: no one's really debating whether g can be measured from an IQ score; or whether IQ tests are culturally biased (in the psychometric sense). Instead, researchers are using IQ scores as proxies for g and then via statistics seeing what covaries with g and the race gap. | |||
===] Statement=== | |||
The dispute centers on how much space in the article should be devoted to the "genetic hypothesis," i.e., the belief that a '''non-zero portion''' of the observed racial difference in IQ is due to genetic differences. Some of the editors view this as "fringe" hypothesis, suggesting via ] that very little if any space should be devoted to it in this article. The other editors view it as a "minority" hypothesis, arguing that the numerous articles in the peer-reviewed literature which support it make it more than "fringe" and that, therefore, via ] a discussion of the "genetic hypothesis" belongs in the article. | |||
:So, mentioning the Fergusen study-- never heard of it-- doesn't seem like a helpful addition. Things that I think influenced where we are now: Binet starting this whole IQ testing thing. The army discovering the utility of iq (and perhaps mention any racist uses here). The whole immigration controversy; Spearman of course; the intractability of the gap, as revealed by things like head start. Jensen's 1969? article; Griggs v. Duke Power, and the data college profs have amassed at least indirectly in response to that ruling. | |||
The outcomes I seek are a) A ruling about whether or not the "genetic hypothesis" meets the definition of ] and b) A suggestion about the percentage (5%, 30%, 50%, whatever) of the article that should be devoted to the "genetic hypothesis." I recommend that the mediator conclude that the "genetic hypothesis" does not meet the standards of ] and that, therefore, a significant percentage (25%) of the article should be devoted to explaining it via references to the peer-reviewed literature. I do not think that the editors of this article would fight over content. We agree (I hope!) about what ], ], ], ], ], ] et al believe. We just disagree about how much weight these views should be given in the article. I thank all the editors for participating in this moderation. I apologize if I have mischaracterized the dispute. ] (]) 21:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:All jmo. At this point, feel free to yell at me if I keep screwing up my editing! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
===] Opening Statement=== | |||
:D'oh; forgot to sign;) ] (]) 21:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::There are several Misplaced Pages articles dealing with the various aspects of IQ, g, etc. It is certainly a good idea to summarize and link to some of them here, but covering the entire history of IQ research here is beyond the scope of this article. ] (]) 22:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
§1. '''Description of the dispute''': Fundamentally, this dispute revolves around whether or not the so-called "hereditarian" view, which claims that the differences between the IQ scores of Whites and Blacks is due, in some part, to genetics, deserves adequate representation in the article ]. Another way this has been put is: Is the hereditarian position "fringe" science, or is it a minority view? This is important, for it determines how much coverage the hereditarian position should receive in the article. | |||
:::It's very nice to see wikipedians expressing their personal views, but that's not how wikipedia articles are written. I am continuing to prepare a version of the rest of the history as I've said above. ] (]) 23:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
§2. '''Progession of the dispute''': Several editors raised the point that the hereditarian position was inadequately represented in the article. Other editors countered by claiming that the hereditarian position was adequately represented. In the view of some, most of the coverage of the hereditarian position in the article is in the form of criticism, and there is very little which attempts to explain the hereditarian position itself. Others respond to this claim by arguing that the hereditarian position is "fringe", and thus only deserves to be criticized. They further argue that to explain the hereditarian position would be a violation of ]. | |||
:This is like criticizing modern medicine because back in the day, doctors used leaches to treat disease. How very Gouldian. ] (]) 23:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
§3. '''Outcome sought''': I believe that the hereditarian position falls safely within the definition of a "minority" view. As such, I would like to see the hereditarian position receive adequate representation. By "adequate", I mean a presentation which allows the reader to understand why the proponents of the hereditarian position support that position. This goes above and beyond any question of the ''proportion'' of said representation. I am interested in neither the public popularity of these views nor in haggling over the percentage of coverage they receive. My primary interest resides in seeing that both sides of the academic dispute are presented in a coherent and understandable fashion. What comes after that is, in my opinion, the result of a popularity contest, and I do not plan to participate past the point of seeing that both sides are fairly and coherently represented. | |||
BPesta, I do not mind your abbreviating my name. On a purely editorial matter, I do have one request - polease be more attentive to how you out-dent your comments, so that they are clearly set apart from other people's comments. e.g. I just refactored this section so that you are always one space out from me, as your comment followed mine (then AProck is two spaces out etc. Also, could you sign imediately after your last words - just to take up less space ... if you do not mind] | ] 23:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
§4. '''Misplaced Pages Policies''': ], ], ]/], ] (which I personally extend to experts as well as to editors), ], ]. | |||
Now, I have three comment in response to your comments and also MathSci's edits. '''Math Sci, would you consider these specific suggestions to consider in your current editing, please?''' (1) I think your suggestion "eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions)." is ''very'' constructive. MathSci, if you could organize your history so that at last a good portion of it is a history of changing research questions, with explicit markers (i.e. subsections highlighting new research questions) I think that this would make the section much much easier for lay-people to read, and would also make it very clear how the history relates to the topic and finally, organizing it this way clarifies ho and why your approach resolves some NPOV concerns | |||
§5. '''Proposal''': I think that we could begin the process of resolution if all the involved editors could agree on several key points: | |||
* There is a real academic dispute concerning the contributing factors to the observed difference in IQ scores between Whites and Blacks. | |||
* This academic dispute is maintained by qualified scholars who advance conflicting research results and/or theories. | |||
* The research findings and/or theories advanced by the involved scholars appear in respected academic journals and other reliable sources. | |||
* The proportion of scholars who currently favor one position over the other cannot be objectively determined. | |||
* The public statements issued either by groups of scholars or by bodies such as the APA are important for orientation, but do not make any final proclamations regarding the outcome of the academic dispute. | |||
* Both sides in the academic dispute advance claims serious enough in import to require an adequate presentation of the reasoning behind their claims, as well as qualified criticism which has been leveled against those claims. | |||
* The social implications of this issue, though very important, should not be allowed to preclude the discussion of any part of the academic dispute. | |||
* The work of experts on both sides of the dispute should be taken in ] and discussed on its own merits. --] <small>]</small> 22:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
===Opening statement by ]=== | |||
I by and large agree with Slrubenstein's statement, particularly that the focus of the article should become stable and that the article talk page should not become a forum for open-ended debate. The article at present does not cover all of the recent major academic contributions to this debate and should make every attempt to do so in an even-handed way. The hereditarian point of view should be carefully outlined, but without giving a false impression of its degree of acceptance. As Slr has written the "open letter" in the WSJ by a self-selected and like-minded group of academics should not receive ] weight, if other distinguished academics have expressed disagreement (as is the case). At present there has not been a systematic attempt to ensure that the broad spectrum of mainstream academic opinion has been properly represented. One problem is that the very narrow topic of a possible correlation between race, whatever that means, and intelligence, whatever that means, has not been widely studied in academia. This makes it hard to write an article on it for an encyclopedia, since many aspects will remain inconclusive because they either have not been sufficiently studied or have not been deemed worthy to be studied. Scrupulous attention should be paid to not ignoring or dismissing important sources, particularly those by eminent academics. Perhaps the most important point is that all key sources should first be carefully identified. These should be carefully summarised in the article, without prejudice. If only a handful of academics favour a particular viewpoint, i.e. it is a minoritarian viewpoint, that should be made clear. There does not seem to be any evidence that "Race and Intelligence" is a major topic of research, discussion or debate in the majority of academic departments specializing in ] or related disciplines. We should be extremely cautious not to approach the writing of this article with that viewpoint. ] (]) 23:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
(2) Second, I agree that we need to be careful about the relevance of earlier racism. Is the point that scientists are biased by their own culture, and that if a culture is biased scientisats will share that bias? Or is the point an irony, that scientists why thought that IQ testing would lead to a meritocracy (and thus end racism) ironically had the opposite effect? The point I want to make right here is this: the question facing any historian is, how far back do you go? Attitudes towards race that dominate world culture today have their origins in the 16th century, do we start there? No. I think in addition to a link to the article on racism we need to have very clear criteria for when we begin the history. Here is my advice, to try to resolve the difference of opinion between MathSci and BPesta: discus the ''criteria'' for deciding when to begin. That is, do not debate when actually to start the history, do not argue over how far back. Instead discuss what principles can help us decide how far back to go. I bet if you discuss it at this more abstract/methodological level, you can reach an agreement, and then it will be easier to write the section without controversy. | |||
===] opening statement=== | |||
(3a) finally, I think it is very important in this section to distinguish between accusations of junk science and racist science. My understanding is this: for many, the real problem with Rushton and Lynn is that they are bad scientists; they are conceptualizing the question inappropriately and using the wrong methods. "Racism" becomes a way either to explain why they would be so sloppy, or to explain why some people fund sloppy science. But "bad science" is the real criticism, and racism is a secondary matter. Am I wrong? | |||
The debate over "race and intelligence" stems from the incontrovertible observation that self-defined "Blacks" score lower on average than self-defined "Whites" on many standard performance and/or aptitude tests. Many interpretations have been made of this puzzling observation. | |||
*Some people have questioned whether "IQ tests" really measure intelligence, and if so how fairly does it do so across cultures. Existing consensus is that these measurements are good predictors of life outcomes (across cultures?), and that they are not subject to any simple form of bias, although certain complex forms of bias (such as ]) have been suggested. | |||
*Some people have dismissed the question by arguing that race as it is commonly conceived is a social construct and that comparing IQ test results (a psychometric/biological measurement) across social categories is like comparing apples and oranges. | |||
*Some people have acknowledged that the IQ gap does measure something (an achievement gap), but there are two main explanations as to the source of the IQ gap: | |||
**Some believe it is the result of environmental causes, such as those behind the ] which has seen a worldwide rise in IQ test scores of about 15 point over the last half-century or so. Factors such as nutrition, schooling and hygiene have been suggested, but no one factor has been definitely demonstrated to be the driving cause between the gap. | |||
**Others believe that in addition to possible environmental causes, genetic factors cause a difference in scoring ability between Blacks and Whites (and most ethnic groups for that matter). The evidence behind this claim is entirely indirect at this point, as (among other things) no genes have been found that regulate intelligence in humans. Also, different proponents of this position advance different proportions for the genetic/environmental effect ratio. | |||
(3b) I admit I can imagine another view, that after the revelation of the ] and other stuff (like the ], who were concerned with the ethical responsibilities of physcists who hlped design the atomic bomb) and the formation of legally mandated "Institutional Review Boards" at US universities (and Ethics Committies in the UK), there is this belief that science ''cannot'' be ethically disinterested and scientists must consider the ethics of their research, including the consequences and potential for harm to the research subjects. This can lead to a whole other way of telling this story. In short, I am still not clear on which of these two main narratives applies in this case and I would ask MathSci to clarify: is it one, the other, both together, or one at one point, and the other at another point? ] | ] 00:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
I believe that it is possible, using available literature, to demonstrate that this last position (often dubbed the "hereditarian position") is in fact the purview of a minority of very vocal scientists, and that mainstream opinion can safely be attributed to the "environmental position". | |||
:I agree with Mikemikev's concerns about Mathsci's proposal. It seems to be written with the specific intention of describing the hereditarian position as unfavorably as possible, particularly the last two paragraphs of it. Although the current history section isn't perfect, it's considerably more neutral than the revision that Mathsci is suggesting. --] (]) 01:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
However, help is needed in arriving at a consensus on determining exactly how strong this vocal minority holding the hereditarian position is, and what would be due weight in presenting their position within the article. My concern is the distinct possibilty that in trying to properly explain the minority hereditarian position, undue weight may be given to it space-wise within the article. But, as I said, I'm aiming for fair and due representation of this position, after we've arrived at a consensus on exactly how to qualify this minority position (fringe, small minority, significant minority, full-blown alternative explanation?)--] (]) 23:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::There are at least 5 editors with serious concerns about this new section. But do note that this mediation will probably end soon, with this discussion being frozen. We will probably continue the discussion here: . Just an FYI for all concerned. ] (]) 03:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
Some review papers that could help in this discussion: | |||
::: I think the problems with Mathsci's version can be mended by simply changing a few wordings (I agree that much of it is not neutrally framed) and adding mention of some other studies on the other side of the fence. ] 09:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
*APA statement report on Race and Intelligence: | |||
*AAA statement on Race and Intelligence: | |||
*AAA statement on Race: | |||
*AAPA statement on Race: | |||
*Review of Rushton's hereditarian hypothesis by Leonard Lieberman, eminent anthropologist: | |||
*Race and Intelligence research from the viewpoint of neurology (a review): | |||
*Another criticism of Rushton's hypotheses from a fellow psychologist (Zack Cernovsky): | |||
*Review from the field of philosophy of science criticizing the science funded by the ]: | |||
::::David, I am not expressing serious conmcerns aout the new section. I am trying to give Mikemikev and Captain Occam and others a constructive way for them to help MathSci do a better job. If they do not like my suggestions, fine (though I would welcome an explanation as to why). Otherwise I am glad to see Matchsci continue adding his relevant and sourced content. ] | ] 11:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
Hope it helps.--] (]) 23:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::E.g. I think Maunus's contributions are real improvements and show just how effective ''collaborative'' editing can work, building on and improving the work of MathSci. ] | ] 11:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
===] opening statement=== | |||
I agree with statments of Slrubenstein and Ramdrake. ] has 74 archives, which means the material related to the current dispute has been debated several times in the past. The main controversy is how much weight should be given to the hereditarian viewpoint. The hereditarian position is indeed supported by a group of like minded scientists who for the most part are connected to the ]. There are not many, if any, mainstream publications that support the hereditarian position that are not in some way associated with pioneer fund publications. The hereditarian position therefore qualifies as a minority position. According to ] | |||
:"Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: '''In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views'''" | |||
] (]) 00:48, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
===The history section II (Shockley and Jensen) === | |||
=== ]'s statement === | |||
This is the second segment of what the summary of the history. The third will probably and its aftermath treat the Bell Curve and the fourth the work of Rushton and Lynn. The last paragraph above would probably be merged into the following account of the revival of hereditarianism (1965-1980). The two sources, already mentioned on this page, are: | |||
* William Tucker, The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund | |||
'''1) the construction of the dispute in your opinion''' | |||
* Adrian Wooldridge, Measuring the Mind: Education and Psychology in England c.1860-c.1990 | |||
{{quote box|In 1965 ], Nobel laureate in physics and professor at ], made a public statement at the Nobel conference on "Genetics and the Future of Man" about the problems of "genetic deteriotaion" in humans caused by "evolution in reverse", in contrast to the capacity for social management and organisation of early American settlers. Speaking of the "genetic enslavement" of African Americans, owing to an abnormally high birth rate, Shockley discouraged improved education as a remedy, suggesting instead | |||
There are three points of serious (scholarly) dispute on this topic which raise policy issues for editors: | |||
sterilisation and birth control. In the following ten years he continued to justify discrimination scientifically, claiming it was not based E.O.on prejudice but "on sound statistics". Shockley's outspoken public statements and lobbying brought him into contact with those running the ] who subsequently provided financial support though the intermediaru ] for his extensive lobbying activities against equality for blacks, reported widely in the press. | |||
The most significant of Shockley's campaigns involved the educational psychologist, | |||
# "whether or not races exist" | |||
], from the ]. Although earlier in his career Jensen had favoured environmental rather than genetic factors as the explanation of race differences in intelligence, he had changed his mind following extended discussions with | |||
# "whether it is either important or proper to study racial... differences in intelligence" | |||
Shockkley during the year 1966-1967 spent at the ] in Stanford. | |||
# "the conclusions that have been drawn about environmental and genetic causes as determinants of these differences" | |||
In 1969 Jensen wrote a long and outspoken article in the ], "How Much can We Boost IQ and Achievement", arguing | |||
The third issue has caused the most difficulty recently. The issue is whether the "hereditarian" or "genetic" hypothesis is a fringe view. | |||
that racial minorities, because of genetic limitations in intelligence, should be taught, not through conceptual explanations, but instead by relying on their ability to associate rather than understand, i.e. learning by rote. He decried the "misguided and ineffective attempts to improve lot" of blacks which would only result in "genetic enslavement" unless "eugenic foresight" was brought into play, i.e. population control. In this article Jensen revived the standard hereditarian claims. Shockley conducted a widespread publicity campaign for Jensen's article, supported by the Pioneer Fund. Jensen's views becoming widely known in many spheres. As a result there was renewed academic interest in the hereditarian viewpoint and in intelligence tests. Jensen's original article was widely circulated and often cited; the material was taught in university courses over a range of academic disciplines. In response to his critics, Jensen wrote a series of books on all aspects of ]. There was also a widespread positive response from the popular press — with the ] dubbing the topic "Jensenism" — and amongst politicians and policy makers. | |||
In 1971 ] wrote a long article on intelligence tests in ] for a general readership. Undecided on the issues of race and intelligence, he discussed instead score differences between social classes. Like Jensen he took a firmly hereditarian point of view. He also commented that the policy of equal opportunity would result in rigidification of social classes, separated by biological differences, resulting in a downward trend in average intelligence that would conflict with the growing needs of a technological society. | |||
'''2) the nature of the dispute as it has progressed''' | |||
Jensen and Herrnstein's articles were widely discussed. ] defended the hereditarian point of view and the use of intelligence tests in "Race, Intelligence and Education" (1971), a pamphlet presenting Jensenism to a popular audience, and "The Equality of Man" (1973). He was severely critical of environmentalists whose policies he blamed for many of the problems in society. In the first book he wrote that, "All the evidence to date suggests the strong and indeed overwhelming importance of genetic factors in producing the great variety of intellectual differences which observed between certain racial groups", adding in the second, that "for anyone wishing to perpetuate class or caste differences, genetics is the real foe". | |||
# "whether or not races exist" --> So far, this has been handled by ] and pointing to other articles. | |||
# "whether it is either important or proper to study racial... differences in intelligence" --> So far, this is included in this article by describing the disagreement and moving on to other topics. In describing those topic, we applied ] in assuming it is important and ethical. Else, it would be impossible to describe other views. | |||
# "the conclusions that have been drawn about environmental and genetic causes as determinants of these differences" --> David.Kane and Varoon Arya have covered this (above). | |||
Although the main intention of the hereditarians had been to challenge the environmentalist establishment, they were unprepared for the level of reaction and censure in the scientific world. Militant student groups at Berkeley and Harvard conducted disruptive campaigns of harassment on Jensen and Herrnstein with charges of racism, despite Herrnstein's refusal to endorse Jensen's views on race and intelligence. Similar campaigns were waged in London against Eysenck and in Boston against ], the founding father of ], the | |||
'''3) the outcome you originally seek coming into this mediation ''' | |||
discipline that explains human behaviour through genetics. | |||
The attacks on Wilson were orchestrated by the | |||
], part of the radical organisation ], formed of 35 scientists and students, including the Harvard biologists ] and ], who both became prominent critics of hereditarian research in race and intelligence. | |||
This disruption was accompanied by a high level of commentaries, criticisms and denouncements from the academic community. Two issues of the ] were devoted to critiques of Jensen's work by psychologists, biologists and educationalists. Broadly there were five criticisms: | |||
In my opinion, it's incorrect to treat the "hereditarian" or "genetic" hypothesis as a fringe view. We have no way of knowing how many people actually ascribe to that view affirmatively (the survey from the 1980s not withstanding), but a great many scholars who hold a variety of views on the question nonetheless treat it seriously as a matter for empirical debate. We should do the same. For example, I see no reason that the views in shouldn't be prominently summarized. | |||
* ''Inadequate understanding of population genetics.'' ] pointed out that heritability estimates depend on the specific group and their environment: Jensen had confused heritability within groups and between groups. Many other scientists made the same point, including ], ], ] and ]. ] and Walter Bodmer questioned Jensen's use of socio-economic status as a method of controlling environment. Jensen's inference of racial IQ differences from class differences was criticized by Sandra Scarr-Salatapek. | |||
Secondarily, I do not see any way to account for how many hold which views. Most apex sources arrive at the conclusion that: "past research on both racial and gender differences in intelligence has been marked by methodological errors and overgeneralizations by researchers on all sides of the issue" and that no one knows what causes the differences. They explicitly do not conclude that environmental causes are known to be the explanation and that genetic causes are known not to contribute. | |||
* ''Overestimation of the heritidary component of IQ scores.'' Mary Jo Bane and Christopher Jenks gave an estimate of 45% compared to Jensen's figure of 80%. ] pointed out methodological flaws including Jensen's reliance on the ] of ]. Critics were in agreement that the expression of a gene depended strongly on environment and hence so would the development of intelligence. | |||
* ''Unjustitied assumption that IQ scores are a good measure of intelligence.'' Multiple problems were brought up by critics, including the difficulty in defining intelligence, the form of the tests, acquired ability in doing tests, the variations in IQ during a lifetime and the difficulties in administering tests to minority or disadvantaged children. | |||
* ''Unjustified sociological assumptions in relating IQ to occupation.'' Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income. | |||
* ''Political criticism and insults from a broad spectrum of scientists.'' Many critics questioned Jensen's motives and whether his work was an appropriate use of public research funds. The ] asserted that this kind of use of IQ tests could result in "Black genocide". | |||
}} | |||
] (]) 09:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
'''4) Misplaced Pages Policies that come into play in your opinion''' | |||
Can you be more specific as to who made the criticisms, and provide actual citations? ] | ] 11:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
] and ] are the central point of content dispute. | |||
:Yes, each point gets a fairly long paragraph in Wooldridge. In fact I was just going to add something to point 2 above about Burt's twin experiments. ] (]) 12:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::This summary looks good to me, except for one thing: the five criticisms of hereditarianism listed at the end of it aren’t neutrally worded. For example, saying “Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income” implies that the truth is that there is not much correlation between the two, while according to the APA report (which we’ve agreed should be the basis for this article’s perspective) IQ correlates with income pretty significantly. If you’re going to use this summary, I have two expectations about it: | |||
], ], ] are important: | |||
::1: These five criticisms should be more neutrally worded. | |||
<blockquote> | |||
The debate was characterized by strong assertions as well as by strong feelings. Unfortunately, those assertions often revealed serious misunderstandings of what has (and has not) been demonstrated by scientific research in this field. Although a great deal is now known, the issues remain complex and in many cases still unresolved. | |||
</blockquote> | |||
::2: It should be made clear that some of these criticisms are no longer considered valid by the psychometric community. (Particularly the criticisms that IQ is not strongly heritable, that it is not a good measure of mental ability, and that it doesn’t correlate significantly with income.) Since we’ve agreed to base our article on the APA statement, and the APA regards these three criticisms as unfounded, our article should also. | |||
], ] and ]: | |||
::If you change these two things, I’ll be satisfied with your summary as far as content is concerned. I also think it might be longer than necessary, but since we’ll probably be adding more content to the rest of the article also, I don’t have as strong of an opinion about whether it needs to be made shorter. --] (]) 13:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
<blockquote> | |||
Another unfortunate aspect of the debate was that many participants made little effort to distinguish scientific issues from political ones. Research findings were often assessed not so much on their merits or their scientific standing as on their supposed political implications. In such a climate, individuals who wish to make their own judgments find it hard to know what to believe. | |||
</blockquote> | |||
::: quick comment: If we're going to mention Lewontin, we should also mention that some think his argument is a fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy ] (]) 15:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
'''5) proposed ways to resolve the issue or points of mutual agreement that could begin an objective process to a resolution''' | |||
:::: I have no objection to this - as long as we also provide a summary of Witherspoon DJ, Wooding S, Rogers AR, ''et al.'' 2007 "Genetic similarities within and between human populations," ''Genetics'' 176(1): 351-359 - which raise questions about Edward's argument based on a more detailed analysis. ] | ] 16:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
In addition to the proposals by Varoon Arya, I would add: | |||
:::::Each of the five points was expanded at Slrubenstein's request to include all he names in the source. There's no problem changing the wording which was an attempt to summarise several sentences. However, any alternative wording should be chosen so that there is no need to cite research from 2007 or for that matter to suggest that Lewontin were correct, just that he had raised objections and thers were in agreement. After all I don't think an account of the history should enter into any detailed technical discussion of scientific matters. These are best left to elsewhere. ] (]) 17:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
=== The history section III === | |||
* Recognize that simply counting the number of people who affirmatively hold the "hereditarian" hypothesis to be definitely true does not capture the importance of the various arguments that are offered in favor that hypothesis and against its alternatives. | |||
Here is a brief version of this material - there should be "main article" links to ] and ]. All that needs adding now is a short section on Rushton-Jensen and Lynn. | |||
* Treat the arguments made by pro-hereditarian scholars with the same care that ] does when summarizing them (Flynn does not hold the hereditarian hypothesis to be true, but values the contributions of its supporters to the topic.) | |||
* Recognize that disagreements exist about the interpretation of the data outside of the hereditarian/environmentalist dichotomy. For example, evidence against an environmental cause isn't inappropriate merely because it may be seen as in effect pro-hereditarian. (In other words, there is a real diversity of views.) | |||
* We are not obliged to make the hereditarian view look unreasonable or unethical. That should not be a metric of acceptability. Many distinguished scholars (most IQ experts?) believe that the hereditarian view is ethical and empirically possible (albeit unproven). | |||
{{quote box|In the 1980s, the New Zealand psychologist ] started a study of group differences in intelligence in their own terms. His research led him to the discovery of what is now called the ]: he observed empirically a gradual increase in average IQ scores over the years over all groups tested. His discovery was confirmed later by many other studies. Flynn concluded in 1987 that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather a correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence". | |||
'''references:''' | |||
<ref>{{citation|title=Race, racism, and psychology: towards a reflexive history|first=Graham|last= Richards|publisher=Routledge|year= 1997|id= | |||
{{ISBN|0415101417}}|page=279}}</ref><ref>{{citation|first1=John|last1= Maltby|furst2=Liz|last2= Day|first3= Ann|last3= Macaskill|publisher=Pearson Education|year= 2007|id={{ISBN|0131297600}}|page=302}}</ref> | |||
In 1994 the debate on race and intelligence was reignited by the publication of the book | |||
http://dx.doi.org/10.1111/j.1745-6916.2007.00037.x | |||
] by ] and ]. The book was received positively by the media, with prominent coverage in ], ], the ] and the ]. Although only two chapters of the book were devoted to race differences in intelligence, treated from the same hereditarian standpoint as Jensen's 1969 paper, it neverthless caused a similar furore in the academic community to Jensen's article. Many critics, including Stephen J. Gould and Leonard Kamin, pointed out flaws in the analsysis and unwarranted simplifications. These criticisms were subsequently presented in books, most notably ] (1995), ] (1996) and an expanded edition of Gould's ] (1996). In reponse to the debate, the ] set up a ten-man taskforce, chaired by ], to report on the book and its findings.<ref>{{citation|first=N.J.|last=Mackintosh|authorlink=Nicholas Mackintosh|title =IQ and Human Intelligence|year=1998|publisher = Oxford University Press|id={{ISBN|019852367X}}|page=148}}</ref> | |||
] | |||
<ref>{{citation|first1=John|last1= Maltby|furst2=Liz|last2= Day|first3= Ann|last3= Macaskill|publisher=Pearson Education|year= 2007|id={{ISBN|0131297600}}|pages= | |||
Jensen (1998) | |||
334-347}}</ref> | |||
Rushton and Jensen (2005) | |||
<ref>{{citation|first=David|last=Hothersall|title=History of Psychology|pages= | |||
] | |||
440-441|publisher= McGraw-Hill|edition=4th|year=2003| | |||
id={{ISBN|0072849657}}}}</ref> In its report, published in February 1996, the committee made the following comments on race differences in intelligence: | |||
::"African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests. In recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably. It is possible that the IQ-score differential is narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established. The cause of that differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available."<ref>{{citation | |||
--] (]) 00:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
|author = Neisser, U., Boodoo, G., Bouchard, T. J. Jr., Boykin, A. W., Brody, N., Ceci, S. J. et al. | |||
|title = Intelligence: Knowns and unknowns | |||
|journal = American Psychologist | |||
|volume = 51 | |||
|pages = 77–101 | |||
|year = 1996 | |||
|url = http://www.psych.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20et%20al,%201996,%20intelligence.pdf | |||
}}</ref>}} | |||
] (]) 15:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
===] opening statement=== | |||
===The history section IV=== | |||
Here is the final section for the history. | |||
{{quote box|From the 1980s onwards, the ] continued to fund hereditarian research on race and intelligence, in particular the two English-born psychologists ] of the ] and ] of the ], its president since 2002. Both have been closely involved with the organization ]. Rushton returned to the cranial measurements of the nineteenth century, using brain size as an extra factor determining intelligence; in collaboration with Jensen, he most recently developed updated arguments for the genetic explanation of race differences in intelligence. Lynn, long time editor of and contributor to ] and a prolific writer of books, has concentrated his research in race and intelligence on gathering and tabulating data about race differences in intelligence across the world. He has also made suggestions about its political implications, including the revival of older theories of ], which he describes as "the truth that dares not speak its name". | |||
For a Misplaced Pages article on any topic about which there is a scientific controversy, one of the most important characteristics the article needs to have is that a person can come to it with little or no knowledge of the topic, and come away from it having a general understanding of the controversy that exists about it, along with the viewpoints and arguments expressed by both sides. There are several policies that relate to this principle, but ] is probably the most important. In accordance with NPOV policy, all significant points of view which have been published by reliable sources should be included in the article, in rough proportion to their prominence in the source material. | |||
<ref>{{citation|first=William|last= Tucker| title=The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund|year=2002|publisher=University of Illinois Press|id={{ISBN|0252027620}}}}</ref><ref> {{citation|title=Race, Racism and Psychology: Towards a Reflex ...|first=Graham |last=Richards|publisher= Routledge|year=1997|id={{ISBN|0415101409}}}}</ref><ref>{{citation|title=Love and eugenics in the late nineteenth century: rational reproduction and the new woman|first=Angélique|last= Richardson| | |||
publisher=Oxford University Press|year= 2003|id={{ISBN|0198187009}}|page=226}}</ref><ref></ref>}} | |||
] (]) 17:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
I don’t think it’s difficult to demonstrate that a legitimate scientific controversy exists about race and intelligence. Two collective statements about this which have been discussed here so far are ''Mainstream Science on Intelligence'' and ''Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns''. The first of these was originally published in The Wall Street Journal with the signatures of 52 experts in the relevant fields, and later republished in the peer-reviewed journal ''Intelligence''. Since it has passed peer review for this professional journal, which is the same criterion used to judge accuracy for everything else published in it, the fact that this article began as a newspaper editorial should not be important, although I agree that it cannot be assumed to represent more than the viewpoints of the 52 experts who signed it. ''Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns'' is a report written by an 11-member task force appointed by the American Psychological Association. Both of these reports state that the cause of the 15-point gap between the average IQ of Black and White people in the United States remains an open question, and the “Mainstream Science” statement presents the hereditarian hypothesis (that genetics contribute to it) and the environmental hypothesis (that it’s caused exclusively by environmental factors) on approximately equal terms. The APA statement is slightly more critical of the hereditarian hypothesis than of the view that it is caused only by environmental factors, but also emphasizes that neither viewpoint can be known with certainty to be correct or incorrect. | |||
Another source of information about the views of scientists on this topic is the Snydernan and Rothman study, a study from 1988 which examined the views of intelligence researchers about the cause of the IQ difference, and found that a majority of them held the opinion that both genetics and environment contributed to it. (Although the proportion would have no doubt been lower if the study had also included anthropologists and geneticists.) A few editors have claimed that the results of this study are inaccurate due to problems such as sampling bias, but because these criticisms have not appeared in any reliable sources, they need to be considered original research; I think most of the people involved in this article agree on this point. And lastly, the most recent examination of the conflicting views on this issue is of the peer-reviewed APA journal ''Psychology, Public Policy and Law'', which was devoted to this controversy. For this issue of their journal, the APA chose to publish a collection of six different papers representing the various viewpoints on this topic. The issue’s featured paper, ''Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability'', is a detailed argument for the hereditarian position by Jensen and Rushton. In addition to the featured paper, the APA chose to publish two other papers that take a pro-hereditarian stance in this issue, as well as two which favor the environmental position, and one which takes an intermediate viewpoint, arguing for an interaction between biological and environmental factors. The last of these, by Suzuki & Aronson, ascribes less importance to heredity than is done by Rushton and Jensen, but more than is done most of their critics. The respective weight that the APA gave to each of the viewpoints expressed in this issue demonstrates the way that they decided these viewpoints should be balanced against one another in a neutral publication. | |||
: This is reasonable, but is Rushton from England? -] (]) 17:18, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
As far as I know, these are the only sources which have attempted to neutrally present the nature of the dispute itself. Although numerous sources exist which describe the hereditarian viewpoint as “fringe”, or which describe the environmental view as being guilty of the moralistic fallacy, all of these are sources which themselves are explicitly arguing for one viewpoint or the other. Since this issue is presented as a legitimate scientific controversy by all of the sources which are not attempting to prove or disprove one viewpoint about it, I believe that NPOV policy requires Misplaced Pages’s article to present this topic in a similar manner. | |||
::Born in England. Spent his teens in Canada. Went back to England for his university education. ] | ] 17:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
== mediation closure? == | |||
In my opinion, some of the earlier versions of the article did a fairly good job with this. Several times I’ve mentioned the version from as accurately presenting both sides of the controversy, as well as including several pieces of relevant information which are missing from the current article, such as the social and practical significance of the IQ difference, which is important regardless of whether or not genetic factors contribute to this difference. (Not to say that this version of the article is perfect, of course.) However, over the past three years, more and more information about the hereditarian perspective has gradually been removed from the article, until at this point it presents virtually no information about the hereditarian perspective except to criticize it, and most of the arguments used in favor of this viewpoint are not mentioned anywhere. For an article on a topic about which a significant scientific controversy exists, I am of the opinion that presenting the arguments used by one side but not the other is a violation of NPOV policy. | |||
It seems to me that this article has gone past the point of needing a specific venue for moderated discussion, so I'm raising the question of closing the mediation. There are a few ongoing discussions, obviously, but I can refactor those over to the article talk page. I'm adding two subsections below, in that regard: one a straw poll on the issue, and another section for discussing which discussions should be closed here and moved to article talk. | |||
There are many reasons this has happened, but all of them seem to relate to one basic trend in this article’s history, which is that most of the time editors who favored the environmental viewpoint have been more numerous and more active than those who favor the hereditarian viewpoint. In theory this should not make a difference, because NPOV policy is that each viewpoint’s respective weight in the article should be determined by that viewpoint’s prevalence in the source material, not by its prevalence among the editors involved in the article. In practice, however, consensus to remove information about the hereditarian hypothesis from the article has generally been quite easy to obtain, while obtaining consensus to add back any such information has been nearly impossible. This trend has had in a long-term effect on the article’s overall balance. | |||
Unless there is a strong consensus that mediation needs to remain open, you can expect that I will close it and move relevant material this evening. --] 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
What I would like to result from this mediation is an overall, long-term guideline on the degree of representation that each viewpoint on this topic should receive in the article. I agree with Varoon Arya that the most important point which can be determined here is whether the hereditarian hypothesis deserves enough space to be presented coherently and understandably; I am of the opinion that in the current article it is not given enough space even for this, and that the fact that it isn't is a violation of NPOV policy. However, in the interest in avoiding similar disputes in the future, I would also like this mediation to suggest an approximate percentage of coverage that this view should receive, as suggested by David.Kane. | |||
===Straw poll on mediation closure=== | |||
Perhaps one way to begin this discussion would be if each of us were to suggest the proportions / percentages of representation that should be given to each of these views, assuming other editors here agree that the arguments used in favor of the hereditarian view should be included in any form. I think the sources I’ve mentioned about the nature of this controversy make it fairly clear that the hereditarian hypothesis is a significant-minority view, and as such deserves inclusion in the article, but other editors may disagree. --] (]) 01:17, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
Do you think we are ready to close this and move completely back to normal editing? use a {{tl|tick}} ({{tick}}} to say we should close and a {{tl|cross}} ({{cross}}} to say not, and if not, please give a brief reason for wanting to keep the mediation open. --] 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{cross}} Oppose for two reasons. The current version still has NPOV problems, which David Kane has still not addressed (in one case, deleting useful information with the explanation that "the numbers speak for themselves" which certainly is an example of the POV pushing that MatchSci was concerned with. I agree this has been a long mediation and I also agree we have made great progress but I would say we should give it at least a few more days. Or at most, I think we should agree on a closure date. We could either vote to close in say one week. Or we can vote to close if at any time 72 hours has passed without any posts to this page, or something like that. ] | ] 16:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
===] opening statement=== | |||
There are several issues at play which have made reaching consensus difficult in this article. The foremost in my opinion is the title of the article. There is no such '''thing''' as "race-and-intelligence", but rather a debate over the connection between these two ]. The current title sets an ''a-priori'' assumption that such a connection exists and is significant, introducing a bias not supported by the literature. I feel the article could be edited more productively if it had a less ambiguous (and IMO less POV) title. This point is echoed by {{user|Dbachmann}} in . If this cannot be solved by changing the title, the lead should be adjusted to reflect some agreed upon focus. In the past, the lead has gone through many drastic changes; stabilizing the lead would help to focus editors and build consensus. | |||
{{cross}} Oppose. While we've made a lot of progress in this mediation case, there are several things that still need to be resolved and that will probably be pretty difficult to resolve if we close the mediation case before they are. In addition to the dispute over David.Kane's newest revisions that Slrubenstein mentioned, another major one is that we still need to resolve the discussion over the "Significance" section. The previous time that we discussed this section, Aprock was the only user who had a problem with it, and he didn't provide a detailed response to any of my and Varoon Arya's arguments for including it. But Ludwig made a decision that rather than trying to resolve this right then, we would resolve it after we'd made the first few rounds of revisions to the article. Since resolving this was something he was intending to do as part of the mediation case, and it still hasn't been resolved yet, closing the mediation case would be inappropriate at this point. --] (]) 16:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
An important secondary issue is disagreement over interpretation of NPOV, and in particular ]. There is agreement that the "hereditarian" hypothesis (50/50 genes-to-environment according to Rushton and Jensen) is a minority hypothesis, but disagreement over how best to exhibit this status. Straightforward percentages of content seem restrictive and difficult to quantify. ] is also very important policy to consider in this issue. | |||
:Incidentally, one other thing I’ve mentioned a few times is that before this mediation case is closed, I think we ought to make a “FAQ” for the talk page detailing some of what we’ve resolved in the mediation. (The meaning of “race” in this context, what is and isn’t “fringe”, etc.) Most other articles about controversial topics have FAQs like this, and I think it would be very beneficial to this article’s long-term stability for it to have one also. --] (]) 16:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
A related issue which would greatly aid in consensus building is the need to agree on which literature reviews should be considered the most authoritative and neutral. By establishing the basic sources which should inform our understanding of academic consensus, many peripheral arguments will be solved. I believe the APA statement is an important starting point. It reads: | |||
<blockquote>Reviewing the intelligence debate at its meeting of November 1994, the Board of Scientific Affairs (BSA) of the American Psychological Association (APA) concluded that there was urgent need for an authoritative report on these issues--one that all sides could use as a basis for discussion. Acting by unanimous vote, BSA established a Task Force charged with preparing such a report. Ulric Neisser, Professor of Psychology at Emory University and a member of BSA, was appointed Chair. The APA Board on the Advancement of Psychology in the Public Interest, which was consulted extensively during this process, nominated one member of the Task Force," the Committee on Psychological Tests and Assessment nominated another," a third was nominated by the Council of Representatives. Other members were chosen by an extended consultative process, with the aim of representing a broad range of expertise and opinion.</blockquote> | |||
{{tick}} - Myself, Wordsmith, and PhilKnight do not think MedCab can maintain this much longer. Mediation can of course still continue, but it won't be under the auspices of any process. Consequently, the AN/I threads and claims to ], etc, will appear to have more merit for dissenters. ] (]) 16:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
I believe that controversial figures such as Rushton and Jensen should be approached as suggested in ]. Only RS secondary sources which discuss their research should be used. | |||
:To be clear: the status of this cased ''will'' be marked closed at MedCab in approx. 7 hours. You can still use this page, but a message will appear on the top saying that it's continuance here is for the sake of convenience, and isn't actually a case under MedCab. ] (]) 17:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::what does that mean exactly? i.e. what is the consequences of mediation ending? (and also what are the reasons for it?)] 17:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm only speaking for the mediation cabal, not the mediation itself. The consequence of this ending is potential chaos, and the consequence for this continuing is Ludwigs vs. MathSci, which has proven to be a major liability for the cabal (3 ANI threads). THE CABAL HAS SPOKEN! ] (]) 17:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{tick}} Support. We should just transfer/copy the discussions here to ]. One pleasing sign just recently has been the constructive reactions to potentially some of the more problematic parts of the history page. That seems to be a positive sign that editing can return to normal. Could an adminitsrator please move Archive 0 of this talk page to somewhere more immediately accessible, just for future reference? Thanks, ] (]) 17:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{tick}} Support. I think that this mediation has been very wildly successful. Just compare the version of the article we have now with the version that we started with! I acknowledge the reasonable concerns expressed by both Captain Occam and Slrubenstein above but hope that we can deal with them in the context of normal editing. I will also note that MedCab is about to kick us out, so we might as well go gracefully. Once again, mad props to Ludwig for being an excellent mediator. ] (]) 19:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
Finally, there have been many instances of editors describing or referring to the actions of other editors on the talk page rather than the content. For the most part, these claims come across as accusations rather than constructive criticism, and serve only to poison the editing atmosphere. Per ] and ], there should be restrictions on what kind of discussions are allowed to stay on the talk page. (those policies allow for refactoring comments not related to content) Any genuine issues should be brought to ] or a similar noticeboard. ] (]) 03:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
{{tick}} Support. Things seem to be working in the usual BRT style for the time being. The only real danger of closing mediation is having a few SPAs begin to engage in edit wars. While this is a concern, I think dealing with those issues as they occur should suffice for the time being. ] (]) 20:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Issues to be Discussed & Agenda== | |||
===Agenda=== | |||
*Determination of Issues to be Discussed | |||
*Mediator statement of potential objective procedures to find resolution | |||
*Timeline set of each discussion, going independant of each other possibly | |||
*Mediator proposed several "solutions" (i.e. resolution may be a better word) | |||
*Discussion of proposals, counterproposals by mediation participants | |||
*2nd phase of Mediator proposals | |||
*Discussion | |||
*Reaching final Framework of Consensus | |||
*Implementation of Framework & putting it into motion on the article page itself | |||
**Closure of Mediation | |||
] (]) 22:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
'''neutral'''. In terms of content, this mediation should not be described as a success or complete because edit warring is currently underway, something which I had previously discussed but that was not thought of as important. However this mediation had some success in calming the polarized atmosphere. During the 5 months of mediation, there were few edit wars, and there were attempts by both sides to reach agreements. On one hand mediation cannot continue indefinitely, and OTOH, unmediated editing is likely to result in an unstable article. ] (]) 14:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Statement of the Mediator == | |||
{{n.b.}} Unless there's a broad consensus that we need to keep the mediation going, I think it would be better to close it out. There has been enough drama-trauma surrounding this already, and I am unwilling to go to bat for the mediation in ANI or MedCab unless there is something resembling a general will that I should do so. Occam, slrubenstein - would it work to move this over to article talk, but try to keep some of the mediation principles going informally with respect to these two discussion? I'm happy to help out with that, either as an informal mediator or a normal editor, or if you prefer you could ask Xavexgoem (or another admin) if he was willing to keep an eye on those two threads. what do you think? --] 00:57, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:To be clear, I am flexible on this. If Ludwig, Occam and Slrubenstein want to continue mediation, I am all for it. We have made a ton of progress. But my ''sense'' is that MedCab is going to close us off no matter what. We can always restart in a month or two. ] (]) 03:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
Please note participants, that I am not a Judge or Arbitor in this matter. WP policy is split between user issues and content issues. There is no "ruling body" on content issues, as the Mediation Committee still makes no rulings and the ArbCom only gets invovled in serious matters of disputes between users and/or administrators. | |||
::well, all things considered, I don't think there's sufficient consensus to continue the mediation at this point, and I think we have a stable base from which to continue developing the article. with that in mind I'm going to close it. This should ease some tensions, and will allow me to step in and work as a normal editor to try to develop the article (I will probably be more useful in that role than as a mediator anyway). let's give it a couple of weeks of normal editing and see what happens - you can always begin a new mediation process if you think it's warranted, but I have faith things will settle out quickly. | |||
Simply put, this is a process for me to help guide you to a solution, not hear evidence and make a ruling. I wish I could just issue a non-binding ruling/guideline but process precludes me from doing so. ] (]) 04:14, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I will set up an FAQ on the article talk as soon as I am done closing the mediation. | |||
:'''Attention All Parties''': It will take some time for me to compile the statements and ALL the information I have gathered into a series of issues to be discussed and an objective process for determing the question's resolution. Please note this if it appears I am not taking immediate action. ] (]) 04:25, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:: Xavexgoem, I'll leave a note in your talk about transferring over discussions and merging histories. I'm not sure which you want me to handle and which you want to handle yourself. --] 05:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Statement on mediator - request for experienced mediator == | |||
:::Thank you, Ludwigs, no mediator does the job without pissing everyone off at some point. Am I correct in understanding that you will ensure that all of this mediation discussion will be made available in future through the talk page (and its archives) for the article? ] (]) 05:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I have already raised the issue at the talkpage of ], looking for either an explanation (returning user who has changed names?) or a remedy (another mediator, more experienced). I'd say let's stay put for now, as this mediator has initiated mediation correctly according to rules, so there's no point in trashing the work (opening statements, etc.) done so far.--] (]) 23:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::I'm sorry, I am not happy having a novice fooling around like this. They can explain themselves on ]. I do not like having my time wasted when there are complex issues at stake. I have no confidence at all in this completely inexperienced editor and consider their behaviour quite inappropriate and disingenuous. Sorry. We can continue the process with another mediator if possible (I will reinstate my statement then). You can make that suggestion on ANI if you like. ] (]) 23:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::Hi. I help coordinate this project, and I'm on MedCom. Mind if I help? ] (]) 00:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::: Help is always welcome! I think we have a real chance to work this out, so I would like to see ] and ]'s concerns addressed. ] (]) 00:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::I have also agreed to help advise Reubzz, and step in directly if necessary. I am not outright adding myself to the co-mediator list, but I will be watching and monitoring the discussion. If anyone has any questions about the process or anything else, feel free to contact me on my Talk page. <span style="font-family:Courier New;font-size:3">]</span><sup>]</sup> 01:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::Many thanks to ] and ] for their kind offer to assist ] in guiding this mediation process; and many thanks also to Reubzz for his willingness to help and learn. I will now reinstate myself in the mediation process, ] (]) 01:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::I can't do that effectively myself (not being a sysop), but I've left a note for Xavexgoem, and between he and I it will get taken care of. probably tomorrow; I think he (like most people) sleeps more than I do. --] 06:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::I am glad Mathsci is on board. I appreciate his concerns. I do think it is possible for a relative newcomer to Misplaced Pages to be an effective mediator (in part because I have seen very experienced Wikipedians fail completely at facilitating mediation) - it takes skills that are not associated with being a Wikipedian (patience, skill at identifying the underlying issues and main stumbling bloicks, skill at communication). It is true, that no one can mediate this conflict without a thorough understanding of our core policies, ], ] and ]. Perhaps Reubuzz has studied these; perhaps Wordsmith is tutoring him on them; perhaps he has been reading Misplaced Pages for years, following discussions, and already knows them. | |||
:::::Oh, I slept through this whole thing myself; my parents would be ashamed, it must be in my genes ;). Just making sure, let me know if there's something I can do to help. ] (]) 06:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::But my principle concern goes to a point Reubuzz made, a point that many Wikipedians have made over the years: we do not have good principles and mechanisms for resolving content disputes. But this really is a content dispute, and I do not think anyone can mediate it without having an ability to distinguish between different kinds of debates among scientists. For example, there is a big difference between Linus Pauling and James Watson debating the structure of DNA, and Linus Pauling and Jonas Salk debating how to treat the common cold. In the first case, both participants in the debate are experts in the same field, but this is not so in the second case. For example, there is a difference between journals like ''Science'', or ''the Journal of the American Medical Association,'' or ''American Journal of Physical Anthropology'', i.e. the journals of major scientific associations and thus flagship journals in their fields, versus privately funded journals. It is important to distinguish between different kinds of foundations, which may have different boards and different peer-review processes that reflect different kinds of funding priorities. Without understanding (or having a willingness to learn about) these matters, I don't see how any mediator will be able to help us stay focused on the robust or profound issues and questions, and the significant points of view. Note: I do not think anything I wrote in this paragraph is biased towards any "side" in this conflict. All sides in this conflict are arguing for the inclusion of what they believe to be ''significant'' views from ''reliable'' sources. In this conflict, which touches on matters in which different academic disciplines in both the life sciences and the social sciences have expertise, what counts as a reliable source or a significant view can vary depending on the question or the kinds of data one must analyze to answer the question. An effective mediator in my view is going to have to understand eough about science, and the specific sciences involved, to sort out these issues. The point is not to ''favor'' anthropology, biology, psychology or sociology. The point is to understand the place of each within academe. ] | ] 07:18, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ludwig, if the mediation case is going to close, I would certainly appreciate the creation of a FAQ and us continuing to follow some of the principles of mediation on the talk page. But seeing what’s happened to the article in the past few hours has only strengthened my opinion that making the article stable will be almost impossible if we end the mediation at this point. We now have multiple simultaneous edit wars going on, including an effort to revert all of David.Kane’s recent changes to the article, and you no longer have any actual authority to prevent this. So if other users choose to ignore what you have to say, what ends up going on the article will be determined only by who can form the most effective ]. | |||
::::::I would happily agree with Slrubenstein if I had not already seen the distinction to which he refers be used in such a partisan manner. Oftentimes, editors attack an otherwise reliable source on the grounds that it is biased or unfit for inclusion. Sometimes this is done with recourse to other sources backing up such claims, sometimes it is done without such recourse, but on purely logical or moral grounds. As a matter of principle, I think editors should be encouraged to evaluate sources critically. However, there are no established principles regarding the kind of criticism which is to be applied. This is one of the weaknesses of the group of policies treating sources (], ], ] and ]). What are editors to do when a fully "reliable" source makes patently incorrect and/or illogical claims? Conversely, what are editors to do when sources which have a less than exemplary pedigree make perfectly correct and logical claims? I've seen cases of both while editing this article. In our own work (e.g. articles/dissertations/books written outside Misplaced Pages), we certainly criticize our sources, and we evaluate their claims on their merits, regardless of their origin. To do otherwise would be intellectually dishonest. I recognize that Misplaced Pages is not an academic journal, and that a line must be drawn between reporting on the work of others and original research. I do not think Misplaced Pages policy needs to be rewritten, but I do think that the mediators should consider that this topic is one which requires particular care when examining sources critically. --] <small>]</small> 08:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::"Editors should evaluate sources critically". Unfortunately that is against the core policies of wikipedia and why, over the last few months, a futile debate (]) has been taking place on the talk page that has been reported on multiple noticeboards. We should only report on what sources say; that includes sources giving evaluations of other sources. That has always been how wikipedia has worked. We might notice that authors are academically distinguished, e.g. are fellows of the ] or members of the ]. Wikipedians should not make the mistake of trying to use talk pages as pseudo-academic forums. ] (]) 11:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::If this really is what other users want, then I guess there’s nothing I can do about that. But I don’t think there’s any way I could think it’s a good idea. | |||
:::::Right, Arya - we never say a source is inaccurate. If there is a significant view from ''another'' reliable source that says the first view is inaccurate, we can include it. There is no debarte over NPOV's core principle, that we have to include all significant views from reliable sources. My point is that in academic debates, the significance of a view or reliability of a source for a particular view is often relative to the discipline in which the research was trained or does research. For example, just because someone has a PhD. in physics or even won the Nobel Prize does not mean that their views about Virginia Wolf are significant; similarly, a journal on Medieval French Literature may be peer-reviewed, but that does not make it a reliable source about chemistry. Do you really disagree with these points? The two examples I provided are crude. When it comes to anthropology, biology, psychology and sociology journals publishing articles on race, intelligence, or race and intelligence, determining reliability and significance is more complicated - I hope you agree with this too. And since it is more complicated, I believe a mediator needs to know something about these disciplines and what each discipline considers a reliable source for what kind of research. ] | ] 13:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
Quick question: to what extent are the expressly non-hereditarian sources in opposition to hereditarian theories? ] (]) 13:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
: Excellent question! There are many "non-hereditarian sources" and I would hesitate to generalize. But I think that the best place to start would be with Sternberg and Nisbett (surely two of the most prominent non-hereditarians) in their articles in . I think it is fair to say that non-hereditarians firmly believe that the explanation for racial differences in IQ is 100% environmental but that they are willing to seriously consider the substance of "hereditarian theories." ] (]) 13:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::Also, the sources I listed at the end of my opening statement are all non-hereditarian (the statements could be considered neutral). This should give you an idea.--] (]) 14:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I already moved an FAQ onto article talk. as to what's happened recently - patience. I expected something like this to happen; it's normal, and like all things in the universe it will change. it's important to keep one eye on the bigger picture. --] 06:38, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::(ec) | |||
::Those papers (David's link) are about policy based on IQ measurements, not on the interpretation of between-group IQ differences. Actual lit reviews would be a better place to look. But in those papers, Sternberg says that IQ is not useful to inform policy, and Nesbitt's main point is that race is a poor construct to use when comparing blacks and whites (though he does conclude that the evidence for an actual intelligence difference is "nil"). The important distinction that I see between the "sides" is that Jensen/Rushton et al see evidence for a "true" difference (to put it in psychometric terms), while Sternberg/Nesbitt et al see too small of a signal-to-noise ratio to make that discrimination (ie, issues with race definitions, IQ interpretations, confounding variables in the environment, cultural bias in the tests, etc etc). The "non-hereditarian" view would probably be best summed up as, "if there is a between-group genetic difference, we can't measure it, and it doesn't make enough of an impact to matter given current conditions." ] (]) 14:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::::::I hope you’re right that this will change. The current state of discussion about the article is more or less the state that it existed in from 2007 until the mediation case started in late 2009, so I don’t consider it a good sign for it to be immediately returning to this state after mediation is finished. | |||
To elaborate on David Kane's comment: In my experience, it largely depends upon the source. If one takes the more sober proponents of the environmentalist or non-hereditarian position, such as ], then there is a purely scientific opposition. That is to say, Flynn takes the arguments of hereditarians such as ] seriously, and evaluates them on their scientific merits. There are other environmentalist, however, who reject hereditarian arguments on what are, by and large, moral grounds. They often accuse hereditarians of "racialism" or outright "racism", and put great emphasis on the controversies surrounding the individuals supporting the hereditarian position, questioning their academic credentials, their sources of funding, their affiliations, and anything which could give the impression that hereditarians are not to be taken seriously except as proponents of "radical racist science", and typically do very little to contradict the actual arguments hereditarian use to support their claims. While hereditarians take the criticism and contrary findings of sober non-hereditarians such as Flynn seriously, they typically respond to such moral accusations as lacking any scientific value. It's a highly charged situation, and there's quite a bit of rhetoric and moral posturing involved. | |||
::::::::Also, a question about your FAQ: Are you going to include either of the two points that are still listed under “currently proposed as resolved”? Now that the mediation case is over, I think it’s pretty obvious that we won’t be finishing the discussion (which was part of the mediation) that was intended to determine whether these points should be considered resolved or not. Consensus appeared to favor both of them pretty strongly, so I think they can be added to the FAQ, but it’s up to you. --] (]) 07:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
As far as the positions themselves go: The "hereditarian" position posits a mixture of genetic and environmental causes. As a result, proponents are typically more open to findings which advance claims regarding particular environmental factors which could influence the development of intelligence. They directly oppose, however, any attempts to explain ''all'' of the difference between groups as due to environmental causes alone. This, they argue, is simply not possible given the widely accepted results of within-group studies (e.g. that genetics plays a considerable role in the manifestation of intelligence within groups of the same racial or ethnic background). They further argue that the non-hereditarian position is fueled more by socio-political interests than by critical scientific acumen. | |||
===sections to be moved to article talk=== | |||
The "environmentalist" position posits that only environmental causes can explain the IQ differences between groups. Most - and, typically, the most vocal - proponents categorically reject any research which shows that genetics could play ''any'' role in this difference. There are some who are compelled to admit that genetics may play some role, but that it is so small, that it's best for all involved if we just ignore it. | |||
There are currently active discussions on the lead, the history section, and the significance section here on the mediation page. which of these should be moved to article talk, and are there any others that should be moved? when I move them, I will copy over the text as is, archive the discussion here, and leave a link pointing to the copied discussion in article talk. --] 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I think you can copy all the history sections over, keeping them in 4 separate parts. Thanks, ] (]) 17:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I can merge the histories of the pages, too. ] (]) 17:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC) <small>If Ludwigs is on IRC, I would greatly appreciate if he joined #wikipedia-medcab on freenode so I can discuss the logistics of this whole thing</small> | |||
:::Oops! Can't merge them proper without steward assistance; talk page has > 5000 edits. I was so wanting to do that, too. ] (]) 08:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Archiving == | |||
Granted, both positions are hard to prove given the nature of the subject and the limitations of the research methods. If we were able to ignore the moral component, I think the non-hereditarian position would reveal itself as the more scientifically radical of the two, given the nature of the position itself. In the only ] conducted to determine consensus on this, 45% of polled experts reported holding views compatible with the hereditarian position, while 15% held views compatible with non-hereditarianism. The study was conducted in the late 1980s, so it's unclear how much those numbers have shifted. Several editors here reject the validity of the study entirely, and even mentioning it can cause conflict. I'm willing to grant that its results are somewhat dated, but I do not think that there has been any radical breakthrough in research in the last 20 years which would make such a large portion of the academic community change its mind. On the contrary, proponents of the hereditarian view feel that their position has been strengthened by findings which have been produced since then. With that being said, there is no shortage of claims from non-hereditarians that only a few isolated "radical mavericks" hold hereditarian views. As there has been no formal study since the 1987 Snyderman and Rothman study to determine this, I think it's obvious that such claims should be taken with a grain of salt. | |||
Mediation page is 500kb long with about 64 sections. Editing is becoming cumbersome, and the page takes a long time to load. ] (]) 14:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
These are, in my opinion, the core points anyone coming to this discussion needs to know in order to determine whether the hereditarian position deserves adequate representation in the article under discussion. --] <small>]</small> 15:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC) | |||
:it's probably best to move discussion over to article talk at this point, regardless, since the mediation is closed. I'll be moving threads over in the next few hours. is there a particular thread that you want to make sure gets moved? --] 15:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I would ask the mediator to compare my comments and Arya's closely. I think we have very different approaches not just to the article but to how to mediate the article. I am not at all questioning Arya's good faith, merely calling attention to a difference in approach. Arya is comparing the views of two views, hereditarian and non-hereditarian. The intent behind my comments in this section and above is to suggest another approach. My approach is to start with different kinds of researchers with different kinds of expertise as a basis for sorting out significance and reliability. My reason is, I fear that if we start with the two antagonistic views, we will just go in circles: supporters of the herditarian view will claim that they are the real specialists and that their view is the most significant and proponents of the non-hereditarian view will claim that they are the real experts and their view is the most significant. I think the way out of this circle is to take these views (hereditarian/non-hereditarian) as conclusions different researchers have reached. Instead of starting with the conclusions, let's see where people started out. That means looking at the different disciplines that look at these kinds of questions, and whose training gives competence in what kinds of research. I think Arya's approach is common sense, but I think it has been tried multiple times as a way to resolve the conflict and has never worked, that is why I am trying to articulate an alternate approach. I do not mean to get into a new argument with Arya, I just want to point out that our approaches to dealing with this conflict among editors involve starkly different approaches to how we decide what sources to look at and how to assess the weight of different views. All I can ask is that the mediator consider both approaches before deciding how to proceed. ] | ] 17:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC) |
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Initiation of Mediation
Welcome to the mediation for Race and Intelligence. I have reviewed the case and the preliminary discussion to the point where I feel comfortable with this case proceeding; further, all 3 "main" parties have indicated acceptance along with ALL of the others who are currently online. After many years of disputes, it is finally time this is put to rest. Using the issues presented and the policies of Misplaced Pages as my guide, I hope to guide all of you to a resolution that is fair and reasonable. I feel like the process the Mediation Committee uses for these matters is a good standard to follow. Below is a series of Ground Rules that I would like all parties to sign on to in the same edit that they add their opening statement. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions.
Proposed Groundrules:
- Stick to content, not the contributor - This should be uncontroversial, since it is policy. Personal attacks will be removed by the mediator, substituting the following template: (Personal attack removed)
- Listen to fellow editors, assuming good faith.
- Seek consensus rather than continually repeating the same point.
- Always work to find common ground rather than ways to support your, and only your point.
- Do not make edits to the page that would contravene these discussions. Essentially, any issue in dispute, once resolved, may then be changed on the article page. Trying to argue on the page during this discussion would contravene these proceedings.
Rules adopted 3/25/10 The mediator reserves the right to:
- cut short any discussion that starts to wander across multiple issues, or that rehashes old grievances.
- force compromises by fiat where there is stolid disagreement on trivial issues
- enforce a one strike civility rule, where civility is used in a narrow sense which prohibits all commentary about other editors that might possibly be interpreted as pejorative, in my best estimation. basically this means I will tolerate one mild incivility over any three day period, and if you commit two, I will bench you for three days - no posting on this page or any related page until I give the go ahead.
Stay clear, stay focused, stay concise, and do not comment on other editors if you wish to continue to participate in this mediation.
Acceptance of Groundrules
Please signify your agreement to the above groundrules by typing * '''Agree''' ~~~~ below.
- Agree Ramdrake (talk) 20:44, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree David.Kane (talk) 20:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Captain Occam (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Fences&Windows 20:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Aryaman (talk) 20:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree DJ (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree T34CH (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Mathsci (talk) 22:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Wapondaponda (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agree Slrubenstein | Talk 18:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- AgreeTechnoFaye Kane 05:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree Ludwigs2 06:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree Aprock (talk) 07:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree Alun (talk) 09:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree mikemikev (talk) 00:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Agree chinpaya (talk) 08:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Agree --OpenFuture (talk) 10:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Agree chinpaya (talk) 08:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
- Agree Dr.TMRoberts (talk) 04:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Agree ·Maunus·ƛ· 11:17, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Current agreements
Currently Resolved--Ludwigs2 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Currently Proposed as Resolved
- Fringe issue - Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article.
- Hereditarian viewpoint - The "hereditarian" viewpoint is not "fringe" science, and should not be presented as such in the article.
- Race/intelligence link - The article will discuss the sources that show there is currently no established genetic link/correlation between race and intelligence, note that the research is inconclusive and ongoing, and give a brief summary of the 'Genes and Intelligence' article (or use other sources) as necessary to give proper balance to genetics-based research. it is understood that this resolved may be subject to clarification as we flesh out the article and sources.
- SIRE data - All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information.
- SIRE & genetic markers - Some research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen because they are highly informative of biogeographical ancestry.)
- Distribution of phenotypes -Research suggests that some genes whose distributions vary between races affect the distribution of phenotypic traits. Obvious examples are skin and eye color; additional examples include blood type, lactase persistence, sensitivity to alcohol, and degree of risk for certain diseases. However, the functions of the majority of these genes remain unknown or poorly understood.
- No specific research - There is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above.
--Ludwigs2 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- 40%-70% of in-group IQ variation - Research suggests that 40-70% of the variation in IQ scores within the same population owes to genetic factors. A few specific genes have been identified as likely candidates, but none has been conclusively shown to do so.
- 1995 APA report - The 1995 APA report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns is a fair (if dated) presentation of what can be considered the "mainstream" academic view on the issue of race and intelligence.
what am I missing in this list? --Ludwigs2 08:05, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Y Race/intelligence link - The article will discuss the sources that show there is currently no established genetic link/correlation between race and intelligence, note that the research is inconclusive and ongoing, and give a brief summary of the 'Genes and Intelligence' article (or use other sources) as necessary to give proper balance to genetics-based research. it is understood that this resolved may be subject to clarification as we flesh out the article and sources. mikemikev (talk) 13:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I have a few suggestions.
1: YThe hereditarian hypothesis is not “fringe”, either by Misplaced Pages’s standards or any other standard. As has been mentioned before, this point is a little different from the point that research into race and intelligence is not “fringe”, and ought to be mentioned separately.
2: I think the following points, regarding the social vs. genetic meanings of race, ought to also be included:
- YAll current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information.
- YSome research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen because they are highly informative of biogeographical ancestry.)
- YResearch suggests that some genes whose distributions vary between races affect the distribution of phenotypic traits. Obvious examples are skin and eye color; additional examples include blood type, lactase persistence, sensitivity to alcohol, and degree of risk for certain diseases. However, the functions of the majority of these genes remain unknown or poorly understood.
- YResearch suggests that 40-70% of the variation in IQ scores within the same population owes to genetic factors. A few specific genes have been identified as likely candidates, but none has been conclusively shown to do so.
- YThere is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above.
This is the same list of points that we’ve been discussing for at least a month, and it’s pretty clear by now that just about everyone agrees with it. The one exception to this is the third point, which hasn’t been in this list before, but is a summary of something that almost all users here have stated they agree with in some form. I’m hoping it won’t be controversial to include point #3 here, but if it is, I guess it’s not a big deal if we leave it off for now. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I concur with Occam, particularly on the need for his first point. My choice of wording would be as follows: The research of so-called "hereditarians" is not "fringe" science, and should not be presented as such in the article. This follows directly from our agreement that the best representative of the mainstream view is the APA report, which has no qualms citing the non-controversial findings of Jensen and Lynn as authorities in their field, and does so frequently (cf. "Sternberg's Theory" §2; "Choice Reaction Time" §1; "Schooling" §4; "Group Differences" §1; "African Americans" §1; etc.). --Aryaman (talk) 20:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don’t think I agree with using the word “research” in this context. The reason Ludwig’s need to summarize these points originally came up was because certain users were under the assumption that we were agreed these people’s research wasn’t “fringe”, but that their conclusions still might be. Part of what we need to clarify here is that what we’re saying isn’t “fringe” includes not only individual studies (that is, research) but also the hereditarian hypothesis itself. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- How does "work" strike you? Or do you specifically want "conclusions" used here? --Aryaman (talk) 20:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- alright, what I've done is created a separate box for proposed resolved issues. As other editors check in we can move them from one box to the other. I've used 'hereditarian viewpoint' rather then 'research', but we can piddle with the words. --Ludwigs2 20:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwig, your wording for this sounds fine to me. But considering how long we’ve spent resolving some of these points already, as well as the fact that you’ve said you don’t want us to waste any more time rehashing old disputes that have already been resolved, I’m not sure what the point is in waiting for other editors to express their opinions about these points before moving them into the “resolved” box. If other editors have sufficiently expressed their opinions about these points in the discussions during which they were resolved initially, isn’t asking users to express their opinion about them again just an invitation to re-open the dispute about them? --Captain Occam (talk) 22:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I just prefer not to appear too hasty about it. of course, if someone objects we can always move them back out again, but lets give it the rest of the day for people to comment if they so choose. --Ludwigs2 23:09, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
An additional point everyone either has been or should be able to agree with:
- YThe 1995 APA report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns, though somewhat dated, is a fair presentation of what can be considered the "mainstream" academic view on the issue of race and intelligence. The conclusion reached in this report is that no one knows what causes the one standard deviation differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites, and that both the environmental model and the hereditarian model suffer from a lack of direct empirical support. --Aryaman (talk) 08:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I've updated the boxes. as always, let me know if there are any problems, or anything I've missed. --Ludwigs2 08:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Terms of continued mediation
TWO WEEK CLOSURE I am archiving this thread as is for the next two weeks, when I will reopen it. Tempers have been very high lately, and I prefer not to distract discussion on this page with a fresh, new political debate. There is nothing here we need to worry about for the immediate future. --Ludwigs2 15:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
You have 2 weeks to show some progress. After that, I will have to close this case. You're in a talk-talk-talk loop, and familiarity breeds contempt. I haven't been paying attention to this, but I just rewatched it. I see TechnoFaye calling SlRubenstein a troll, and general anger all around. Please stop personal attacks, and be civil even if you have to grit your teeth through it. Things are bad enough already. If you continue to insist, I will close this case and you'll basically have the same discussion happening on the article's talk page.
Finally, there's been some concern about representation of viewpoints during this arduous process. If a good outcome happens, bear in mind that edits to the article do not automatically have consensus just because they were discussed here, because not all the "major players" are having a say -- I don't blame them. MedCab is open-ended, and mediators can opt to continue a case even if people drop out or don't participate. So prepare for a likely round 2(^n) in any event. Xavexgoem (talk) 06:41, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Despite what some users are claiming at AN/I, we haven’t “pushed away” any editors who used to be involved in this article. Some of us have gone out of our ways to try and get more of the people who originally signed into this case to continue participating in it, particularly Alun and Mathsci. (I’m not sure what’s happened with Ramdrake, but I suspect he has real-life issues that are preventing his continued participation at Misplaced Pages.) But both Alun and Mathsci seem to be actively avoiding participation here, even though Mathsci at least is still paying close enough attention to this case to have very strong opinions about what he doesn’t like in it.
- I can understand why it wouldn’t qualify as consensus if a large body of users holding a certain viewpoint were being excluded from the discussion, or weren’t able to participate in it for reasons beyond their control. But what we have here is a few users who are voluntarily excluding themselves from the discussion, despite our efforts to the contrary, and who now may end up claiming that the outcome isn’t acceptable because their opinions weren’t considered. Well, if they care about the outcome and want their opinions represented in it, shouldn’t they be presenting those opinions in the mediation the way everyone else has been doing?
- If things end up going the way you’re suggesting they might, what this sounds like it means is that there would be a few users aren’t interested in working towards consensus at all (since reaching consensus is the purpose of a mediation case), and would rather just block any efforts to change the article by unilaterally rejecting whatever outcome the rest of us can agree on after we’ve spent several months reaching that agreement. If this actually does end up happening, doesn’t it pretty clearly violate the spirit of how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, as well as policies such as the “Little or no interest in working collaboratively” section of Misplaced Pages:Not here to build an encyclopedia and the “Does not engage in consensus building” section of Misplaced Pages:Disruptive_editing? And if so, how could this be an acceptable reason to reject the outcome of mediation? --Captain Occam (talk) 09:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd appreciate some elaboration from Xavexgoem regarding "some progress". Apparently we have very different ideas about what constitutes progress: despite our accomplishments, particularly over the last 3 weeks (the resolution of several key points and the production of an outline to be used for our first revision), uninvolved editors continue to berate the mediation as being a waste of time. If making concrete steps towards a major revision is not considered "progress", and we're being threatened with discontinuation if we do not evidence "some progress" within two weeks, I'm quite eager to know just what constitutes "progress" in the eyes of the MedCab. --Aryaman (talk) 13:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.The history section
MOVED discussion moved to Talk:Race_and_intelligence with the same header. please continue any debate there. --Ludwigs2 18:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have written extra material for the first segment of the history section, using as the initial secondary source the section on "Race Differences in Intelligence" in this textbook:
- Benjamin, Ludy T. (2006), Brief History of Modern Psychology, Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 188–191, ISBN 140513206X
Ludy Benjamin is one of the foremost historians of psychology. A second segment will follow. Mathsci (talk) 10:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
In !895 R.Meade Bache, University of Pennsylvania, published an article in Psychological Review concerning the reaction times of three population groups in the USA, with in decreasing order of speed, Native Amricans, African Americans and whites. He explained the slowness of the whites by the fact that their brains were more contemplative and did not function well on primitive tasks. This was one of the first examples of scientific racism, in which science is used to bolster beliefs in the superiority of a particular race.
In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in Psychological Bulletin, characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of verneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, untruthful, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of powere of sustained activity and constructive conduct."
In 1916 George O. Ferguson conducted research in his Columbia Ph.D. thesis on "The psychology of the Negro", finding them poor in abstract thought, but good in physical responses, recommending how this should be reflected in education.
In 1916 Lewis Terman, in the manual accompanying the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Test, referred to the higher frequency of morons among non-white American racial groups stating that further research into race difference on intelligence should be conducted and that the "enormously significant racial differences in general intelligence" could not be remedied by education.
In the 1920's psychologists started questioning underlying assumptions of racial differences in intelligence; although not discounting them, the possibility was considered that they were on a smaller scale than previously supposed and also due to factors other than heredity. In 1924 Floyd Allport wrote in his book "Social Psychology" that the French sociologist Gustave Le Bon was incorrect in asserting "a gap between inferior and superior species" and pointed to "social inheritance" and "environmental factors" as factors that accounted for differences. Nevertheless he conceded that "the intelligence of the white race is of a more versatile and complex order than that of the black race. It is probably superior to that of the red or yellow races."
In 1929 Robert Woodworth in his textbook on psychology made no claims about innate differences in intelligence between races, pointing instead to environmental and cultural factors. He considered it advisable to "suspend judgement and keep our eyes open from year to year for fresh and more conclusive evidence that will probably be discovered".
In 1935 Otto Klineberg wrote two books "Negro Intelligence and Selective Migration" and "Race Differences", dismissing claims that African Americans in the northern states were more intelligent than those in the south. He concluded that there was no scientific proof of racial differences in intelligence and that this should not therefore be used as a justification for policies in education or employment. In the 1940s many psychologists, particularly social psychologists, conceded that enviromental and cultural factors, as well as discrimination and prejudice, provided a more probable explanation of disparities in intelligence. According to Franz Samelson's analysis in 1978, this change in attitude had become widespread by then, with very few studies in race differences in intelligence, a change brought out by an increase in the number of psychologists not from a "lily-white ... Anglo-Saxon" background but from Jewish backgrounds. Other factors that influenced American psychologists were the Nazi claims of a master race and the economic changes brought about by the depression.
Despite these changes in the way most American psychologists approach race and intelligence, there is still a small and vocal group, led by Arthur Jensen and J. Philippe Rushton who continue to insist that racial differences in intelligence exist and cannot be explained solely through environmental or cultural factors. The psychologist-historian Graham Richards has described this continued concern with race and intelligence as a "peculiarly American obsession".
- Richards, Graham (2004), "It's an American thing": the race and intelligence thing from a British perspective, Defining intelligence: race and racism in the history of American psychology (ed. A. Winston), American Psychological Association, p. 157
- Nonsense. You're misrepresenting the fact that current consensus is agnosticism, and that, if anything an approximately 50% genetic etiology probably has more support among experts than 100% environmental. I prefer David's history, without your changes. mikemikev (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ahem, this is just a summary of what the source says. It does not say at all what you claim it says. It is additional material, not an alternative. It is just the first part of the additional history. The rest is more complicated to write and will use further sources. Unless you can find fault with this source, which is written by a distinguished historian of psychology, what point is there in you simply writing WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Unfortunately your way is not the way wikipedia articles are edited. If you have a problem with either Ludy Benjamin or Graham Richards, or their publsihers, please say so. The book by Benjamin has had excellent reviews from what I can tell. Since this is additional material and properly sourced, might it possible for you to find a more constructive way of discussing content in future? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is relevant to show that the race intelligence debate has its roots in scientific racism and the eugenics theories of the early twentieth century - that is an important part of why the debate is so contentious. It is also relevant to mention that race intelligence research is almost entirely based in the US. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- The race intelligence debate has been going on since time immemorial. Take a look at Historical definitions of race. Researchers are not just from the US (Rushton, probably the most prominent current researcher, is Canadian/British) and they use data from all over the world. mikemikev (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is relevant to show that the race intelligence debate has its roots in scientific racism and the eugenics theories of the early twentieth century - that is an important part of why the debate is so contentious. It is also relevant to mention that race intelligence research is almost entirely based in the US. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ahem, this is just a summary of what the source says. It does not say at all what you claim it says. It is additional material, not an alternative. It is just the first part of the additional history. The rest is more complicated to write and will use further sources. Unless you can find fault with this source, which is written by a distinguished historian of psychology, what point is there in you simply writing WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Unfortunately your way is not the way wikipedia articles are edited. If you have a problem with either Ludy Benjamin or Graham Richards, or their publsihers, please say so. The book by Benjamin has had excellent reviews from what I can tell. Since this is additional material and properly sourced, might it possible for you to find a more constructive way of discussing content in future? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism. Stating that a group mean difference exists on IQ test scores is empirical fact-- not racism. Stating that RT differences exist across races and that these differences map on to IQ differences is empirical fact-- not racism. Data are neutral; only the explanation for the data can be racist. If I claim these differences are real but due to massive test bias and poorer environments for minorities, is that racist? If one claimed the difference is due to the inherent inferiority of the minority as part of god's great plan-- well, that's probably racist. But, just describing empirical peer-reviewed data cannot be racist. Whether claiming part of the difference is genetic may or may not be racist (i.e., what if it's true?).Bpesta22 (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I am not arguing that modern peer reviewed studies of correlations between race and intelligence is scientific racism (or that describing those studies is racism)- I am saying that it is relevant to contextualise this research into the tradition of eugenics and pseudo scientific staments of inherent inferiority of certain racial groups from which it originated - because this context is exactly the reason that it is so controversial today.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Maunus once again puts his finger on the key point: putting views in context. BPesta says, "I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism." Bryan, - and I am speaking to you editor to editor - there is no need for confusion. We are not saying that these studies are scientific racism. We are saying that one view holds that these studies are valid scientific research and another view holds that they are scientific racism." We are notsaying anything as such about the research. We are providing the views that are out there. Now, if one of us personally disagrees with one viee, or even does not understand one view, well, what can I say? Everyone has their own opinion. We do have to strive to present each view accurately and as clearly as possible, so if you do not understand that view maybe you can point out places where more information would make our account clearer. But whether any of us personally understands a view or likes it, well, that just is not relevant. Using that as a standard for what we include in this article will only ensure that the article violates WP:NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Still mulling this over and happy to comply with whatever rules wiki uses. But-- perhaps I am biased-- reading this history section gives one the impression that it's a foregone conclusion that Jensen et al. are raving loons motivated by racism. At the very least, it makes it seem like the whole area is junk science, even if the environmental hypothesis is completely true.
- I'm guessing one could easily find books / articles, etc. claiming the very worst about people who do research in this area (again this reminds me of the Gottfredson article I linked to somewhere here). I'm trying to strike a balance in my mind between giving these guys too much credit versus letting them be dismissed outright as cranks, since there is now about 100 years of data on this gap. For example, I much prefer the Hunt criticisms to the Nisbett ones. I've seen two examples here of Nisbett's arguments and have not been impressed (understood that my opinion doesn't matter for what the final draft is; just expressing my opinion).
- Slru-- sorry for shortening your name as Slu, and thanks for your comment re my editing question. Bpesta22 (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions). Examples: no one's really debating whether g can be measured from an IQ score; or whether IQ tests are culturally biased (in the psychometric sense). Instead, researchers are using IQ scores as proxies for g and then via statistics seeing what covaries with g and the race gap.
- So, mentioning the Fergusen study-- never heard of it-- doesn't seem like a helpful addition. Things that I think influenced where we are now: Binet starting this whole IQ testing thing. The army discovering the utility of iq (and perhaps mention any racist uses here). The whole immigration controversy; Spearman of course; the intractability of the gap, as revealed by things like head start. Jensen's 1969? article; Griggs v. Duke Power, and the data college profs have amassed at least indirectly in response to that ruling.
- All jmo. At this point, feel free to yell at me if I keep screwing up my editing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpesta22 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- D'oh; forgot to sign;) Bpesta22 (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are several Misplaced Pages articles dealing with the various aspects of IQ, g, etc. It is certainly a good idea to summarize and link to some of them here, but covering the entire history of IQ research here is beyond the scope of this article. A.Prock (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- It's very nice to see wikipedians expressing their personal views, but that's not how wikipedia articles are written. I am continuing to prepare a version of the rest of the history as I've said above. Mathsci (talk) 23:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is like criticizing modern medicine because back in the day, doctors used leaches to treat disease. How very Gouldian. Bpesta22 (talk) 23:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
BPesta, I do not mind your abbreviating my name. On a purely editorial matter, I do have one request - polease be more attentive to how you out-dent your comments, so that they are clearly set apart from other people's comments. e.g. I just refactored this section so that you are always one space out from me, as your comment followed mine (then AProck is two spaces out etc. Also, could you sign imediately after your last words - just to take up less space ... if you do not mindSlrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Now, I have three comment in response to your comments and also MathSci's edits. Math Sci, would you consider these specific suggestions to consider in your current editing, please? (1) I think your suggestion "eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions)." is very constructive. MathSci, if you could organize your history so that at last a good portion of it is a history of changing research questions, with explicit markers (i.e. subsections highlighting new research questions) I think that this would make the section much much easier for lay-people to read, and would also make it very clear how the history relates to the topic and finally, organizing it this way clarifies ho and why your approach resolves some NPOV concerns
(2) Second, I agree that we need to be careful about the relevance of earlier racism. Is the point that scientists are biased by their own culture, and that if a culture is biased scientisats will share that bias? Or is the point an irony, that scientists why thought that IQ testing would lead to a meritocracy (and thus end racism) ironically had the opposite effect? The point I want to make right here is this: the question facing any historian is, how far back do you go? Attitudes towards race that dominate world culture today have their origins in the 16th century, do we start there? No. I think in addition to a link to the article on racism we need to have very clear criteria for when we begin the history. Here is my advice, to try to resolve the difference of opinion between MathSci and BPesta: discus the criteria for deciding when to begin. That is, do not debate when actually to start the history, do not argue over how far back. Instead discuss what principles can help us decide how far back to go. I bet if you discuss it at this more abstract/methodological level, you can reach an agreement, and then it will be easier to write the section without controversy.
(3a) finally, I think it is very important in this section to distinguish between accusations of junk science and racist science. My understanding is this: for many, the real problem with Rushton and Lynn is that they are bad scientists; they are conceptualizing the question inappropriately and using the wrong methods. "Racism" becomes a way either to explain why they would be so sloppy, or to explain why some people fund sloppy science. But "bad science" is the real criticism, and racism is a secondary matter. Am I wrong?
(3b) I admit I can imagine another view, that after the revelation of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment and other stuff (like the Union of Concerned Scientists, who were concerned with the ethical responsibilities of physcists who hlped design the atomic bomb) and the formation of legally mandated "Institutional Review Boards" at US universities (and Ethics Committies in the UK), there is this belief that science cannot be ethically disinterested and scientists must consider the ethics of their research, including the consequences and potential for harm to the research subjects. This can lead to a whole other way of telling this story. In short, I am still not clear on which of these two main narratives applies in this case and I would ask MathSci to clarify: is it one, the other, both together, or one at one point, and the other at another point? Slrubenstein | Talk 00:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Mikemikev's concerns about Mathsci's proposal. It seems to be written with the specific intention of describing the hereditarian position as unfavorably as possible, particularly the last two paragraphs of it. Although the current history section isn't perfect, it's considerably more neutral than the revision that Mathsci is suggesting. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are at least 5 editors with serious concerns about this new section. But do note that this mediation will probably end soon, with this discussion being frozen. We will probably continue the discussion here: . Just an FYI for all concerned. David.Kane (talk) 03:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the problems with Mathsci's version can be mended by simply changing a few wordings (I agree that much of it is not neutrally framed) and adding mention of some other studies on the other side of the fence. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are at least 5 editors with serious concerns about this new section. But do note that this mediation will probably end soon, with this discussion being frozen. We will probably continue the discussion here: . Just an FYI for all concerned. David.Kane (talk) 03:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- David, I am not expressing serious conmcerns aout the new section. I am trying to give Mikemikev and Captain Occam and others a constructive way for them to help MathSci do a better job. If they do not like my suggestions, fine (though I would welcome an explanation as to why). Otherwise I am glad to see Matchsci continue adding his relevant and sourced content. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- E.g. I think Maunus's contributions are real improvements and show just how effective collaborative editing can work, building on and improving the work of MathSci. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The history section II (Shockley and Jensen)
This is the second segment of what the summary of the history. The third will probably and its aftermath treat the Bell Curve and the fourth the work of Rushton and Lynn. The last paragraph above would probably be merged into the following account of the revival of hereditarianism (1965-1980). The two sources, already mentioned on this page, are:
- William Tucker, The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund
- Adrian Wooldridge, Measuring the Mind: Education and Psychology in England c.1860-c.1990
In 1965 William Shockley, Nobel laureate in physics and professor at Stanford University, made a public statement at the Nobel conference on "Genetics and the Future of Man" about the problems of "genetic deteriotaion" in humans caused by "evolution in reverse", in contrast to the capacity for social management and organisation of early American settlers. Speaking of the "genetic enslavement" of African Americans, owing to an abnormally high birth rate, Shockley discouraged improved education as a remedy, suggesting instead sterilisation and birth control. In the following ten years he continued to justify discrimination scientifically, claiming it was not based E.O.on prejudice but "on sound statistics". Shockley's outspoken public statements and lobbying brought him into contact with those running the Pioneer Fund who subsequently provided financial support though the intermediaru Carleton Putnam for his extensive lobbying activities against equality for blacks, reported widely in the press.
The most significant of Shockley's campaigns involved the educational psychologist, Arthur Jensen, from the University of California, Berkeley. Although earlier in his career Jensen had favoured environmental rather than genetic factors as the explanation of race differences in intelligence, he had changed his mind following extended discussions with Shockkley during the year 1966-1967 spent at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences in Stanford.
In 1969 Jensen wrote a long and outspoken article in the Harvard Educational Review, "How Much can We Boost IQ and Achievement", arguing that racial minorities, because of genetic limitations in intelligence, should be taught, not through conceptual explanations, but instead by relying on their ability to associate rather than understand, i.e. learning by rote. He decried the "misguided and ineffective attempts to improve lot" of blacks which would only result in "genetic enslavement" unless "eugenic foresight" was brought into play, i.e. population control. In this article Jensen revived the standard hereditarian claims. Shockley conducted a widespread publicity campaign for Jensen's article, supported by the Pioneer Fund. Jensen's views becoming widely known in many spheres. As a result there was renewed academic interest in the hereditarian viewpoint and in intelligence tests. Jensen's original article was widely circulated and often cited; the material was taught in university courses over a range of academic disciplines. In response to his critics, Jensen wrote a series of books on all aspects of psychometry. There was also a widespread positive response from the popular press — with the New York Times Magazine dubbing the topic "Jensenism" — and amongst politicians and policy makers.
In 1971 Richard Herrnstein wrote a long article on intelligence tests in The Atlantic for a general readership. Undecided on the issues of race and intelligence, he discussed instead score differences between social classes. Like Jensen he took a firmly hereditarian point of view. He also commented that the policy of equal opportunity would result in rigidification of social classes, separated by biological differences, resulting in a downward trend in average intelligence that would conflict with the growing needs of a technological society.
Jensen and Herrnstein's articles were widely discussed. Hans Eysenck defended the hereditarian point of view and the use of intelligence tests in "Race, Intelligence and Education" (1971), a pamphlet presenting Jensenism to a popular audience, and "The Equality of Man" (1973). He was severely critical of environmentalists whose policies he blamed for many of the problems in society. In the first book he wrote that, "All the evidence to date suggests the strong and indeed overwhelming importance of genetic factors in producing the great variety of intellectual differences which observed between certain racial groups", adding in the second, that "for anyone wishing to perpetuate class or caste differences, genetics is the real foe".
Although the main intention of the hereditarians had been to challenge the environmentalist establishment, they were unprepared for the level of reaction and censure in the scientific world. Militant student groups at Berkeley and Harvard conducted disruptive campaigns of harassment on Jensen and Herrnstein with charges of racism, despite Herrnstein's refusal to endorse Jensen's views on race and intelligence. Similar campaigns were waged in London against Eysenck and in Boston against Edward Wilson, the founding father of sociobiology, the discipline that explains human behaviour through genetics. The attacks on Wilson were orchestrated by the Sociobiology Study Group, part of the radical organisation Science for the People, formed of 35 scientists and students, including the Harvard biologists Stephen J. Gould and Richard Lewontin, who both became prominent critics of hereditarian research in race and intelligence.
This disruption was accompanied by a high level of commentaries, criticisms and denouncements from the academic community. Two issues of the Harvard Educational Review were devoted to critiques of Jensen's work by psychologists, biologists and educationalists. Broadly there were five criticisms:
- Inadequate understanding of population genetics. Richard Lewontin pointed out that heritability estimates depend on the specific group and their environment: Jensen had confused heritability within groups and between groups. Many other scientists made the same point, including Stephen J. Gould, Walter Bodmer, Gerald Dworkin and Ned Block. Luigi Cavalli-Sforza and Walter Bodmer questioned Jensen's use of socio-economic status as a method of controlling environment. Jensen's inference of racial IQ differences from class differences was criticized by Sandra Scarr-Salatapek.
- Overestimation of the heritidary component of IQ scores. Mary Jo Bane and Christopher Jenks gave an estimate of 45% compared to Jensen's figure of 80%. Leon Kamin pointed out methodological flaws including Jensen's reliance on the twin studies of Cyril Burt. Critics were in agreement that the expression of a gene depended strongly on environment and hence so would the development of intelligence.
- Unjustitied assumption that IQ scores are a good measure of intelligence. Multiple problems were brought up by critics, including the difficulty in defining intelligence, the form of the tests, acquired ability in doing tests, the variations in IQ during a lifetime and the difficulties in administering tests to minority or disadvantaged children.
- Unjustified sociological assumptions in relating IQ to occupation. Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income.
- Political criticism and insults from a broad spectrum of scientists. Many critics questioned Jensen's motives and whether his work was an appropriate use of public research funds. The Association of Black Psychologists asserted that this kind of use of IQ tests could result in "Black genocide".
Mathsci (talk) 09:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Can you be more specific as to who made the criticisms, and provide actual citations? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, each point gets a fairly long paragraph in Wooldridge. In fact I was just going to add something to point 2 above about Burt's twin experiments. Mathsci (talk) 12:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- This summary looks good to me, except for one thing: the five criticisms of hereditarianism listed at the end of it aren’t neutrally worded. For example, saying “Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income” implies that the truth is that there is not much correlation between the two, while according to the APA report (which we’ve agreed should be the basis for this article’s perspective) IQ correlates with income pretty significantly. If you’re going to use this summary, I have two expectations about it:
- 1: These five criticisms should be more neutrally worded.
- 2: It should be made clear that some of these criticisms are no longer considered valid by the psychometric community. (Particularly the criticisms that IQ is not strongly heritable, that it is not a good measure of mental ability, and that it doesn’t correlate significantly with income.) Since we’ve agreed to base our article on the APA statement, and the APA regards these three criticisms as unfounded, our article should also.
- If you change these two things, I’ll be satisfied with your summary as far as content is concerned. I also think it might be longer than necessary, but since we’ll probably be adding more content to the rest of the article also, I don’t have as strong of an opinion about whether it needs to be made shorter. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- quick comment: If we're going to mention Lewontin, we should also mention that some think his argument is a fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy Bpesta22 (talk) 15:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have no objection to this - as long as we also provide a summary of Witherspoon DJ, Wooding S, Rogers AR, et al. 2007 "Genetic similarities within and between human populations," Genetics 176(1): 351-359 - which raise questions about Edward's argument based on a more detailed analysis. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Each of the five points was expanded at Slrubenstein's request to include all he names in the source. There's no problem changing the wording which was an attempt to summarise several sentences. However, any alternative wording should be chosen so that there is no need to cite research from 2007 or for that matter to suggest that Lewontin were correct, just that he had raised objections and thers were in agreement. After all I don't think an account of the history should enter into any detailed technical discussion of scientific matters. These are best left to elsewhere. Mathsci (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have no objection to this - as long as we also provide a summary of Witherspoon DJ, Wooding S, Rogers AR, et al. 2007 "Genetic similarities within and between human populations," Genetics 176(1): 351-359 - which raise questions about Edward's argument based on a more detailed analysis. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The history section III
Here is a brief version of this material - there should be "main article" links to Flynn effect and The Bell Curve. All that needs adding now is a short section on Rushton-Jensen and Lynn.
In the 1980s, the New Zealand psychologist James Flynn started a study of group differences in intelligence in their own terms. His research led him to the discovery of what is now called the Flynn effect: he observed empirically a gradual increase in average IQ scores over the years over all groups tested. His discovery was confirmed later by many other studies. Flynn concluded in 1987 that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather a correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence".
In 1994 the debate on race and intelligence was reignited by the publication of the book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. The book was received positively by the media, with prominent coverage in Newsweek, Time, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Although only two chapters of the book were devoted to race differences in intelligence, treated from the same hereditarian standpoint as Jensen's 1969 paper, it neverthless caused a similar furore in the academic community to Jensen's article. Many critics, including Stephen J. Gould and Leonard Kamin, pointed out flaws in the analsysis and unwarranted simplifications. These criticisms were subsequently presented in books, most notably The Bell Curve Debate (1995), Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth (1996) and an expanded edition of Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1996). In reponse to the debate, the American Psychological Association set up a ten-man taskforce, chaired by Ulrich Neisser, to report on the book and its findings. In its report, published in February 1996, the committee made the following comments on race differences in intelligence:
- "African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests. In recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably. It is possible that the IQ-score differential is narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established. The cause of that differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available."
Mathsci (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The history section IV
Here is the final section for the history.
From the 1980s onwards, the Pioneer Group continued to fund hereditarian research on race and intelligence, in particular the two English-born psychologists Richard Lynn of the University of Ulster and J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario, its president since 2002. Both have been closely involved with the organization American Renaissance. Rushton returned to the cranial measurements of the nineteenth century, using brain size as an extra factor determining intelligence; in collaboration with Jensen, he most recently developed updated arguments for the genetic explanation of race differences in intelligence. Lynn, long time editor of and contributor to Mankind Quarterly and a prolific writer of books, has concentrated his research in race and intelligence on gathering and tabulating data about race differences in intelligence across the world. He has also made suggestions about its political implications, including the revival of older theories of eugenics, which he describes as "the truth that dares not speak its name".
Mathsci (talk) 17:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is reasonable, but is Rushton from England? -Bpesta22 (talk) 17:18, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Born in England. Spent his teens in Canada. Went back to England for his university education. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
mediation closure?
It seems to me that this article has gone past the point of needing a specific venue for moderated discussion, so I'm raising the question of closing the mediation. There are a few ongoing discussions, obviously, but I can refactor those over to the article talk page. I'm adding two subsections below, in that regard: one a straw poll on the issue, and another section for discussing which discussions should be closed here and moved to article talk.
Unless there is a strong consensus that mediation needs to remain open, you can expect that I will close it and move relevant material this evening. --Ludwigs2 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Straw poll on mediation closure
Do you think we are ready to close this and move completely back to normal editing? use a {{tick}} (Y} to say we should close and a {{cross}} (N} to say not, and if not, please give a brief reason for wanting to keep the mediation open. --Ludwigs2 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
N Oppose for two reasons. The current version still has NPOV problems, which David Kane has still not addressed (in one case, deleting useful information with the explanation that "the numbers speak for themselves" which certainly is an example of the POV pushing that MatchSci was concerned with. I agree this has been a long mediation and I also agree we have made great progress but I would say we should give it at least a few more days. Or at most, I think we should agree on a closure date. We could either vote to close in say one week. Or we can vote to close if at any time 72 hours has passed without any posts to this page, or something like that. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
N Oppose. While we've made a lot of progress in this mediation case, there are several things that still need to be resolved and that will probably be pretty difficult to resolve if we close the mediation case before they are. In addition to the dispute over David.Kane's newest revisions that Slrubenstein mentioned, another major one is that we still need to resolve the discussion over the "Significance" section. The previous time that we discussed this section, Aprock was the only user who had a problem with it, and he didn't provide a detailed response to any of my and Varoon Arya's arguments for including it. But Ludwig made a decision that rather than trying to resolve this right then, we would resolve it after we'd made the first few rounds of revisions to the article. Since resolving this was something he was intending to do as part of the mediation case, and it still hasn't been resolved yet, closing the mediation case would be inappropriate at this point. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Incidentally, one other thing I’ve mentioned a few times is that before this mediation case is closed, I think we ought to make a “FAQ” for the talk page detailing some of what we’ve resolved in the mediation. (The meaning of “race” in this context, what is and isn’t “fringe”, etc.) Most other articles about controversial topics have FAQs like this, and I think it would be very beneficial to this article’s long-term stability for it to have one also. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Y - Myself, Wordsmith, and PhilKnight do not think MedCab can maintain this much longer. Mediation can of course still continue, but it won't be under the auspices of any process. Consequently, the AN/I threads and claims to WP:OWN, etc, will appear to have more merit for dissenters. Xavexgoem (talk) 16:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- To be clear: the status of this cased will be marked closed at MedCab in approx. 7 hours. You can still use this page, but a message will appear on the top saying that it's continuance here is for the sake of convenience, and isn't actually a case under MedCab. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- what does that mean exactly? i.e. what is the consequences of mediation ending? (and also what are the reasons for it?)·Maunus·ƛ· 17:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm only speaking for the mediation cabal, not the mediation itself. The consequence of this ending is potential chaos, and the consequence for this continuing is Ludwigs vs. MathSci, which has proven to be a major liability for the cabal (3 ANI threads). THE CABAL HAS SPOKEN! Xavexgoem (talk) 17:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- what does that mean exactly? i.e. what is the consequences of mediation ending? (and also what are the reasons for it?)·Maunus·ƛ· 17:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Y Support. We should just transfer/copy the discussions here to Talk:Race and intelligence. One pleasing sign just recently has been the constructive reactions to potentially some of the more problematic parts of the history page. That seems to be a positive sign that editing can return to normal. Could an adminitsrator please move Archive 0 of this talk page to somewhere more immediately accessible, just for future reference? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 17:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Y Support. I think that this mediation has been very wildly successful. Just compare the version of the article we have now with the version that we started with! I acknowledge the reasonable concerns expressed by both Captain Occam and Slrubenstein above but hope that we can deal with them in the context of normal editing. I will also note that MedCab is about to kick us out, so we might as well go gracefully. Once again, mad props to Ludwig for being an excellent mediator. David.Kane (talk) 19:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Y Support. Things seem to be working in the usual BRT style for the time being. The only real danger of closing mediation is having a few SPAs begin to engage in edit wars. While this is a concern, I think dealing with those issues as they occur should suffice for the time being. A.Prock (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
neutral. In terms of content, this mediation should not be described as a success or complete because edit warring is currently underway, something which I had previously discussed but that was not thought of as important. However this mediation had some success in calming the polarized atmosphere. During the 5 months of mediation, there were few edit wars, and there were attempts by both sides to reach agreements. On one hand mediation cannot continue indefinitely, and OTOH, unmediated editing is likely to result in an unstable article. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC) * Unless there's a broad consensus that we need to keep the mediation going, I think it would be better to close it out. There has been enough drama-trauma surrounding this already, and I am unwilling to go to bat for the mediation in ANI or MedCab unless there is something resembling a general will that I should do so. Occam, slrubenstein - would it work to move this over to article talk, but try to keep some of the mediation principles going informally with respect to these two discussion? I'm happy to help out with that, either as an informal mediator or a normal editor, or if you prefer you could ask Xavexgoem (or another admin) if he was willing to keep an eye on those two threads. what do you think? --Ludwigs2 00:57, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- To be clear, I am flexible on this. If Ludwig, Occam and Slrubenstein want to continue mediation, I am all for it. We have made a ton of progress. But my sense is that MedCab is going to close us off no matter what. We can always restart in a month or two. David.Kane (talk) 03:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- well, all things considered, I don't think there's sufficient consensus to continue the mediation at this point, and I think we have a stable base from which to continue developing the article. with that in mind I'm going to close it. This should ease some tensions, and will allow me to step in and work as a normal editor to try to develop the article (I will probably be more useful in that role than as a mediator anyway). let's give it a couple of weeks of normal editing and see what happens - you can always begin a new mediation process if you think it's warranted, but I have faith things will settle out quickly.
- I will set up an FAQ on the article talk as soon as I am done closing the mediation.
- Xavexgoem, I'll leave a note in your talk about transferring over discussions and merging histories. I'm not sure which you want me to handle and which you want to handle yourself. --Ludwigs2 05:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you, Ludwigs, no mediator does the job without pissing everyone off at some point. Am I correct in understanding that you will ensure that all of this mediation discussion will be made available in future through the talk page (and its archives) for the article? Steveozone (talk) 05:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I can't do that effectively myself (not being a sysop), but I've left a note for Xavexgoem, and between he and I it will get taken care of. probably tomorrow; I think he (like most people) sleeps more than I do. --Ludwigs2 06:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I slept through this whole thing myself; my parents would be ashamed, it must be in my genes ;). Just making sure, let me know if there's something I can do to help. Steveozone (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwig, if the mediation case is going to close, I would certainly appreciate the creation of a FAQ and us continuing to follow some of the principles of mediation on the talk page. But seeing what’s happened to the article in the past few hours has only strengthened my opinion that making the article stable will be almost impossible if we end the mediation at this point. We now have multiple simultaneous edit wars going on, including an effort to revert all of David.Kane’s recent changes to the article, and you no longer have any actual authority to prevent this. So if other users choose to ignore what you have to say, what ends up going on the article will be determined only by who can form the most effective tag team.
- If this really is what other users want, then I guess there’s nothing I can do about that. But I don’t think there’s any way I could think it’s a good idea.
- I already moved an FAQ onto article talk. as to what's happened recently - patience. I expected something like this to happen; it's normal, and like all things in the universe it will change. it's important to keep one eye on the bigger picture. --Ludwigs2 06:38, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I hope you’re right that this will change. The current state of discussion about the article is more or less the state that it existed in from 2007 until the mediation case started in late 2009, so I don’t consider it a good sign for it to be immediately returning to this state after mediation is finished.
- Also, a question about your FAQ: Are you going to include either of the two points that are still listed under “currently proposed as resolved”? Now that the mediation case is over, I think it’s pretty obvious that we won’t be finishing the discussion (which was part of the mediation) that was intended to determine whether these points should be considered resolved or not. Consensus appeared to favor both of them pretty strongly, so I think they can be added to the FAQ, but it’s up to you. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
sections to be moved to article talk
There are currently active discussions on the lead, the history section, and the significance section here on the mediation page. which of these should be moved to article talk, and are there any others that should be moved? when I move them, I will copy over the text as is, archive the discussion here, and leave a link pointing to the copied discussion in article talk. --Ludwigs2 15:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think you can copy all the history sections over, keeping them in 4 separate parts. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 17:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I can merge the histories of the pages, too. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC) If Ludwigs is on IRC, I would greatly appreciate if he joined #wikipedia-medcab on freenode so I can discuss the logistics of this whole thing
- Oops! Can't merge them proper without steward assistance; talk page has > 5000 edits. I was so wanting to do that, too. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I can merge the histories of the pages, too. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC) If Ludwigs is on IRC, I would greatly appreciate if he joined #wikipedia-medcab on freenode so I can discuss the logistics of this whole thing
Archiving
Mediation page is 500kb long with about 64 sections. Editing is becoming cumbersome, and the page takes a long time to load. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- it's probably best to move discussion over to article talk at this point, regardless, since the mediation is closed. I'll be moving threads over in the next few hours. is there a particular thread that you want to make sure gets moved? --Ludwigs2 15:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Richards, Graham (1997), Race, racism, and psychology: towards a reflexive history, Routledge, p. 279, ISBN 0415101417
- Maltby, John; Day; Macaskill, Ann (2007), Pearson Education, p. 302, ISBN 0131297600
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ignored (help) - Mackintosh, N.J. (1998), IQ and Human Intelligence, Oxford University Press, p. 148, ISBN 019852367X
- Maltby, John; Day; Macaskill, Ann (2007), Pearson Education, pp. 334–347, ISBN 0131297600
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ignored (help) - Hothersall, David (2003), History of Psychology (4th ed.), McGraw-Hill, pp. 440–441, ISBN 0072849657
- Neisser, U., Boodoo, G., Bouchard, T. J. Jr., Boykin, A. W., Brody, N., Ceci, S. J.; et al. (1996), "Intelligence: Knowns and unknowns" (PDF), American Psychologist, 51: 77–101
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(help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - Tucker, William (2002), The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund, University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0252027620
- Richards, Graham (1997), Race, Racism and Psychology: Towards a Reflex ..., Routledge, ISBN 0415101409
- Richardson, Angélique (2003), Love and eugenics in the late nineteenth century: rational reproduction and the new woman, Oxford University Press, p. 226, ISBN 0198187009
- Current editorial board of Mankind Quarterly