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== Odd reference formatting ==


== POV issues ==
What is with the odd reference formatting? Why is <nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki> not being used??? ''']''' (]) 01:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
:The article predates that system, editors like myself have preferred retaining it rather than messing with it... or have been to lazy to update it (me especially) ] (]) 03:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
::I reformatted it. As a side note, the article is horribly in need of a cleanup, it suffers from POV, possible ], and way, way way, too much use of primary sources and non-independent sources. ''']''' (]) 20:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


I have tagged the article with ] and ], as a catch-all for all the others I ''really'' wanted to use.
== Unsourced, moved from article to talk page ==


Looking through the citations, there are 17 uses of twelvetribes.org (the subject's own website), and 43 uses of Susan Palmer writings (all glowing, supportive, and defensive of the subject group) — too much ] and too much one-sided POV.
;Origins and History
<s>The origins of the Twelve Tribes movement can be traced to small meetings held in the home of ] and his wife Marsha in the early 1970s in ], ]. In 1972, the Spriggs began a ] for ] called the "Light Brigade." Around this time, members of the "Light Brigade." THe Brigade began to live communally while operating the first Yellow Deli which served three primary functions: creating revenue for the group, ], and mentoring new congregants. . Until this time, Spriggs' group had not been a separate denomination, instead affiliating itself with several different local churches and denominations. However, this changed after Spriggs went to church one Sunday only to find the service cancelled due to the ]. The group then began having their own meetings on Sunday in a park, began calling themselves the "Vine Community Church". The Church grew with several over churches started in ] and ], ], and ] as well as a second in downtown Chattanooga. The Areopagus, in 1978 opened with a ], ] seating, ]s, and a ].<s>
Rewritten with sources] (]) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


There is ''much'' content in the article on the order of "we're not a cult, they called us a cult, we're not a cult", but content that describes it as a cult and its associated reliable sources have been omitted or seriously downplayed. The article is instead full of ]. The ''heavy emphasis'' on "defensiveness" language suggests there ''are numerous'' other reliable sources available, though I'm not seeing them in this article... yet. ] (]) 01:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
<s>During this period, the church came under suspicion by ] ] groups and ]. This opposition resulted in a series of attempted ]s of Twelve Tribes members.<s>
:{{yo|Grorp}} I agree with your assessment; there is far too much reliance on primary-sourced material from the organisation itself. I wondered whether there are scholarly sources that characterise the group as a cult in authorial voice – the answer is yes e.g.<ref name=WhRo20>{{cite book|last1=Whitsett|first1=Doni|last2=Rosow|first2=Natasha Post|title=Women's Journey to Empowerment in the 21st Century: A Transnational Feminist Analysis of Women's Lives in Modern Times|chapter=Global Violence of Women in Cults|editor-last1=Zaleski|editor-last2=Enrile|editor-last3=Weiss|editor-last4=Wang|editor-first1=Kristen|editor-first2=Annalisa|editor-first3=Eugenia|editor-first4=Xiying|year=2019|location=Oxford|publisher=]|pages=343–368|doi=10.1093/oso/9780190927097.001.0001|isbn=9780190927097|url=https://academic.oup.com/book/38724|quote=The Twelve Tribes of Israel is an existing cult that still functions with thriving communities...Sarah’s former cult, The Twelve Tribes, is still very much intact and flourishing on four continents. It recently appeared in the news after authorities in Cambridge, New York, discovered child labor law infractions at one of its communities. This has also happened in Germany, where the court recently held up the removal of children from a large Twelve Tribes community in Bavaria.}}</ref><ref name=LaMc18>{{cite book |last1=Lalich |first1=Janja |last2=McLaren |first2=Karla |title=Escaping Utopia: Growing Up in a Cult, Getting Out, and Starting Over |date=2018 |publisher=] |location=Abingdon/New York |isbn=978-1-138-23973-9 |pages=16–20, 88–89 |url=https://www.routledge.com/Escaping-Utopia-Growing-Up-in-a-Cult-Getting-Out-and-Starting-Over/Lalich-McLaren/p/book/9781138239746|quote=In fact, many Twelve Tribes escapees eventually return to the cult because they can’t tolerate the supposed evils of the outside world...Children in most cults are required to study, attend lengthy indoctrination sessions or church services, and work. For instance, the many businesses of the Twelve Tribes involved extensive child labor.}}</ref>.
expanded/rewritten with sources ] (]) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:There are of course news organisations and other sources that use the same characterisation. There is a strong case for using this term alongside the term “NRM” in the opening. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 07:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


:: Much of the defensive sources are from the 80s or 90s (Wright comes to mind), while there have been several serious incidents 20 and 30 years later. Thanks for pointing out the 2019 source.
<s>Around the time the climate turned negative in the South, Spriggs was invited by a group of disenchanted Christians in Vermont to bring a demonstration of the life they had seen down south to their northern township. The entire community in the south sold their businesses and homes and moved their base of operations to ] in 1978 through 79 calling themselves The Northeast Kingdom Community Church. (That area of Northeastern Vermont is called the Northeast Kingdom.)<s>
:: I had found whitewashed language, like apprenticing "teenagers" to "trades" (letting the reader think 16-18 year olds learning carpentry or welding) when the source said they are apprenticed "by 13" for "crafts and specialized labor" (whatever that means). Or Swantko's wheelbarrow-and-lightbulb defensiveness (MANDY) in the face of an actual government sanction after inspection. We don't know the details; was the work being performed too late at night for a 15-yr-old? Surely it was just a ticket/fine and not a criminal charge; doesn't need a defense, just pay the fine and stop working kids after certain hours. Too much defensiveness is just icky. Such content spin/emphasis portends finding other serious POV problems. I haven't even read the whole thing yet. I suppose DUE/UNDUE should be considered when reading the article as a whole. ] (]) 08:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Rewritten with sources] (]) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
:::It's worth quoting from scholarship which discusses precisely this issue:<ref name=NaAh14>{{cite book |title=New Media and Communication Across Religions and Cultures|editor-first1=Isaac|editor-last1=Nahon-Serfaty|editor-first2=Rukhsana|editor-last2=Ahmed|date=2014 |publisher=Information Science Reference |location=Hershey, PA |isbn=9781466650350 |pages=101–102 |url=https://www.igi-global.com/book/new-media-communication-across-religions/84271}}</ref> {{bq|Not surprisingly, there are indications that many NRMs are involved in editing, censoring, and writing their own Misplaced Pages entries in an effort to correct or suppress negative information supplied by embittered ex-members or anti-cultists....When associates...see something embarassing on their Misplaced Pages page, they don't worry much about the truth content of the information, or about Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy, they just remove the irksome entry and often put text more favourable to them in its place. Time to add another to the list of whitewashers....When will the Twelve Tribes organisation learn the Twelve Tribes Misplaced Pages pages doesn't belong to them?}}
:::{{bq|All links and most in-text references to sources critical of TT beliefs and practices were removed from the Twelve Tribes Misplaced Pages page back in May...The nice thing about Misplaced Pages is that the history of all edits are preserved...many of the original external links to the Twelve Tribes' Misplaced Pages article have been restored. Among these was the link to the "twelve-tribesteachings" site that archives a collection of hundreds of "teachings" of Spriggs as well as the TT's Intertribal News. Trouble is, these documents were not meant for outsiders' eyes and are a public relations liability for the Tribes...Many are on points of doctrine will stand the hair on your head.}}
:::<span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">]— ]</span> 09:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
:I have done some cleanup. I still think that based on and others we can call it a cult in Wiki voice or at least note in the lead that it is identified as a cult. "Some government and advocacy groups have labeled it a cult" really doesn't cut it when a major newspaper calls them a cult as a statement of fact. Or there's " - no hedge or caveat there, no framing as opinion, this is something their lawyers said could be stated as fact without qualification or scare quotes.
:I've heard that most of the younger members have left. Does anyone know if that's true?
:Incidentally, there's a couple of episodes of ''Behind The Bastards'' on this lot. ] (]) 13:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
<s>::::This has been an issue and it’s good it is becoming one again. Some years ago this page was marked by Misplaced Pages as having issues. A user @]made a lot of this article while being a member. It reads like a PR piece with some attempts at neutrality parsed on where a random editor attempted to fix something. Thanks for bringing this up here. ] (]) 09:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)</s>
::::Struck through sock of Bagofscrews. ] ] 07:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
: Some of these SPS were added by myself. These are however sources on their business operations and so are entirely different. Different subjects. I hope you don't intend to remove such unrelated material. ] (]) 18:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


The community in Island Pond grew in size. Two German men joined the group, but their visas expired. In response, the group sent members to return to Europe and seek a place for a community. They wandered for a year, seeking a home, calling themselves the "Little Flock". Eventually, a woman named Tabitha offered a chateau, which became the first community in Europe. The chateau in Sus, France is called "Tabitha's Place". <s>The group continued to grow during the 1980s and 1990s, opening branches in several different countries, including Canada, Australia, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, and the United Kingdom.<s> ] (]) 16:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


Around the turn of the century, the communities in the United States spread from New England to the West Coast and to the South. Many of the original members from the Southern United States returned to their home states to begin communities in Chattanooga, ], ], and ]. <s>Then in April, 2008, the community in Chattanooga opened a new Yellow Deli, nearly 30 years after leaving the city.<s>] (]) 02:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


{{talk-reflist}}
;Beliefs and practices
There are many distinctions between the Twelve Tribes and ]. For example, the Twelve Tribes believe and teach that denominations or divisions remove a church's validity and insist that the true church will be undivided in reality. Christian fundamentalism allows for differences and denominations in the non-essentials, and believe that the unity of the church is mystical, unseen, and unassailable.


== Archiving ==
The Twelve Tribes do not consider themselves part of any organized religion as such they do not view themselves as belonging to Catholicism, or any of the Protestant denominations of Christianity. They believe that the church changed considerably over the first two hundred years of its life, lost its love, and ceased to be a true church. They believe that since apostolic times, Christianity never returned to its foundation, but became more and more corrupt. Separating themselves from all other organized religions, the Twelve Tribes consider themselves to be the beginning of the restoration of original pattern of the church.


{{ping|Butlerblog}} You immediately swapped out the archival tool '''I set up''' before it even had a chance to run a cycle. But your archiving bot isn't picking up the two old threads (2014 & 2016), whereas I know the archive bot I set up would have done so. I'm changing it back. Please let it run through its cycle at least once. ] (]) 01:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The group believes that humans are living in the ], and that a faithful and pure church must be restored before Christ returns.


:{{ping|Grorp}} My apologies on the mixup. It was not intentional actually. When I made my edit, I honestly did not even notice the edit history and that you had actually ''just'' implemented archiving. I was looking at the wikimarkup alone and thinking that it wasn't archiving (which of course it wasn't because it was ''just'' set up). A total snafu on my part and I can see from your perspective it may have seemed like I was trying to undo your bot setup, which was not the case at all. So please completely ignore that mess and proceed as needed with your bot config. ] (]) 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
The group's teachings extend to the family and society. Wives are to respect and to be submissive to their husbands, while husbands should love and cherish his wife above all earthly things. Children should honor and obey their parents as their supreme authority. Homosexuality, sodomy, divorce, adultery, fornication, child abuse, gambling, alcohol, drugs, and pornography are all viewed by the Group to be sinful activities, which are given up when a person becomes a disciple. Respect, hospitality, and hope are extended to all people, regardless of past incidents.


:: Holy cow, that bot is on the ball! I thought it would take 24 hours, but it just ran and archived those two old threads. Thanks for the explanation. How about we leave it as it is. ] (]) 02:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
;Controversies
:::That's great! Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? (So I won't try to ;-) ) ] (]) 12:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


== Unverified tag ==
The group has garnered controversy since their beginnings in the 1970s. Accusations by the ] and ] have caused incidents of vandalism on property owned by the group and assaults on members.


{{Reply|Butlerblog}} (Several times now?) you have reverted my "unverified" tag (with no explanation from you), so I looked even closer. This is what I found.
The group first aroused controversy because of accusations of ], and later, ] in their cottage industries. The most notable event was the 1984 ]. Anti-cult workers, Galen Kelly and Priscilla Coates, collected information from ex-members and provided this information to media and government agencies. In 1984, Vermont State authorities executed a full-scale pre-dawn raid of the 13 Twelve Tribes houses in ], seizing all of the children. The search warrants contained no names, but gave permission to the police to seize all children in the specified locations as evidence. The case was dismissed the same day as the raid was unconstitutional.


Although the source given (when translated from German to English) says "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer showed that after the police raids in September 2013, the doctors found no evidence of ill-treatment," the source is from APA-OTS which is a distributor of press releases (like ]). So I went to the source (given by link at the bottom of original citation) which is a redirect (http://www.ots.at/redirect/foref2) to . Not currently available, but is available through wayback machine. That leads to the ''old'' website for FOREF Europe (foref.info). I see they have a new website which fortunately is in English.
In England, a report from '']'' accuses the Twelve Tribes of being ] and ], quoting an article published by the group. The article states that "murder is the very crime which the Jews are still cursed for" and that "multiculturalism increases murder, crime and prejudice".


FOREF Europe is an advocacy group for freedom of religion. Per ], I really don't think this press release is a reliable source for repeating verbatim the English-translation version "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer pointed out that the doctors found no evidence of mistreatment in September 2013 following the police raids."
The Twelve Tribes deny charges of racism or Anti-Semitism, stating that they "look back to the Semitic roots of our faith with gratitude". They also have members of many races and cultures in their community, and a number of African-American members are also leaders in their communities. The Twelve Tribes encourages use of the Hebrew language, as a large number of member were Jewish or of Jewish background.


Also, since "the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German move to take away the children from the sect", then Palmer's statement hints of ] and probably shouldn't be mentioned in the article at all. ( shows their activism and ideas on this incident in all its POV glory. Also not a reliable source to use in Misplaced Pages, but interesting all the same.) Though there may not have been "marks" on the children at the time of the raid, there were routine canings on the children prior, which is why they were picked up in the first place.
----
Unsourced, moved from article to talk page. ''']''' (]) 20:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


Analogy: If I smack you today and it makes a pink handprint on your cheek, but it's not there tomorrow, does that mean I cannot be arrested tomorrow for assault because you no longer have any remaining mark on your face?
can't find independent source for much of the third paragraph in history, but seems Written specifcally by the Tribes leaving out for now. ] (]) 17:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
* cant find anything for much of the fourth Paragraph ] (]) 02:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


Mentioning this "single point in time" statement from Palmer is ] and I don't think the wiki article would be lacking if the sentence were removed altogether. ] (]) 00:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
==Reviving old talk page subject For Proposed Restructuring of Page Article==
1. Neutral Introduction
a. use logo of Crown with 12 stars, the TT would proably be happy to provide fair use
b. Include estimated membership (why this is currently stuck in the middle of the page idk)
2. Undisputed History
a. Spriggs moves to Chattanooga
b. light brigade
c. Yellow Deli
d. sychism with local churches
e. Anti-cult movement alleges brainwashing and conducts deprogramming
f. Move to Vermont.
g. Island pond raid (Neutral three sentences expand in Controversy section )
h. planting of world wide communities
i. Steve wooten (Neutral One liner expand in Controversy section )
j 2001 Child labor controversy(Neutral One liner expand in Controversy section )
k. Return to Chattanooga
3. Indisputable Beliefs/Practice/ (Focus on Verifiable Doctrine promoted, maybe criticism of doctrine)
A. Beleifs
a. name of Yahshua ( sourced criticism of hebrew spelling and pronunciation permittable )
b. Restored Isreael/ one true church (in just about every freepaper they publish)
c. justification Communal living and common purse (Book of acts and Rich young ruler)
d. end times belief
e. Shabbat and Sabbath on saturday
B. Practices
a. Standard of Dress (Easily sourced in pratically every article ever written about them)
b. taking of hebrew names
c Kosher diet
d. Israelli folk dancing
e. Child rearing
f. Rejection of negative influences (TV, Outside music, Perceived immorality )
4. Business/outreach
A. Bussiness
a. Purpose To Provide income/serve as outreach
c. List Notable operations (Boj Construction, Maté Factor, organic farms, Yellow deli, Commonsense Products,)
B. Outreach
a. Peacemaker bus
b. Peacemaker Marine
c. Events, (nicodemus by night, rap sessions, open forum, M night)
5. Criticism/controversy (Critical to remain sourced the only permitable acusation are sourced from credible article (not editorial) and repsonse to the critism can only come from official statement from TT such has found at http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/spoken-against.html
a. Target of Anticult movemen/notable critics/Nierr
b. ISland pond raid
c. 2001 Cottage industry scandal
d. Racism
e. Judaism
f. homosexuality
g. German Home Schooling
h. Steve wooten incident
Suggestions are Welcome, need to Rewrite artilce is critical ] (]) 16:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


:The tag you used is <nowiki>{{failed verification}}</nowiki>, and I did explain why I removed it in my edit summary - the source says verbatim what was being cited in the article. Based on all the other things you noted, along with the fact that my edit summary was unclear to you, I think maybe you're using the wrong tag for your purpose. You have to make sure you're using the right tags if you want other editors to know what you're intending to convey - whether that's that a better source is needed, that it's not a reliable source, etc. As far as everything else you noted, while I would probably disagree that it is UNDUE, but I would agree that it probably doesn't matter one way or the other whether it's removed. If it is in fact a press release, then it really should be, as that's not really a useable source. I'll leave that up to you as to whether you want to remove it or retag it (with a more appropriate tag); but as far as marking it as failed verification, the source cited says what is in the article, so it should not be tagged (at least with that particular tag). ] (]) 01:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
:FWIW, there seems to be agreement to merge ] to this article. &nbsp; <b>]&nbsp; ]&nbsp; </b> 17:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


:: Yes. It wasn't until after I'd drafted the above message, and then posted it, that I saw you'd made another edit which had an explanation. (Two ships passing in the night.) I didn't look back on earlier edits, but I could have sworn this was earlier cited to a book which just didn't mention it (hence unverif) and since today it wasn't a book that's why I went diving. No worries. Today's "deep dig" showed it was likely sourced to an unreliable source anyway, so I will remove the sentence and citation since I don't think it adds any value to the story. ] (]) 01:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC) Argh. Sometimes I'm just blind. I just didn't see your edit summary, sorry. ] (]) 01:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
==Reviving Yellow Deli Merger Discussion==
:::No problem! ] (]) 03:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
The article on Yellow Deli overlaps substantially with this one, and I propose merging that one into this one. Any objections? Will Beback talk 18:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
*No objections from me. Though the Yellow Deli article can technically stand on its own as an article about a popular Tennessee eatery, the overlap with this article (due to the fact that its sole owner and operator is the Twelve Tribes) is enough to justify a merge. Jaybird vt (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
**the article is of such poor quality i dont know why its been allowed to standWeaponbb7 (talk) 00:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
***You need to get out more often if you think this one is even in the bottom 10th of articles on Misplaced Pages! That's not to defend it's low quality; only to put it into context :-)RevelationDirect (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
*Count me in favor of merger. RevelationDirect (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Article merged: See old talk-page ]


== Not B class ==
Again, I appreciate the work you've done. ] (]) 16:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


{{tq|"Readers are not left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher."}}
{{Discussion top|1=The result was '''merge''' ] -- ] (]) 02:59, 17 November 2009 (UTC)}}


This article is not remotely close to B class. Way too much missing information. For example, nothing about the hostels the communities run. Nothing about the extramarital affairs of Marsha Spriggs or the fact that she was the de facto leader. ] (]) 20:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
== Question about history ==


:{{tq|Way too much missing information}} is subjective. Encyclopedia articles by nature are not expected to cover every minute detail of a topic - that's what books are for - rather, it should summarize key points available in reliable sources; and it does that. Additionally, B-class does not mean "all encompassing". Carefully re-read what you quoted from the assessment guide: {{tq|the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher.}} ] (]) 23:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Hello Cirt and WeaponBB7. My name is Tim Kroehler, known in the community as Mevaser. I'm so thankful for the cleanup you all have done. I'm a member, and it has been hard to write from NPOV, especially with some writers that seem to be embittered themselves. I like your tone, and appreciate all the research you have done. If I can be of any help with resources, please let me know. I did have a few comments:


== "Oddities" ==
1. The section about the history of moving from Chattanooga to Island Pond has two references to us being "bankrupt" as a significant factor in our moving. It quotes Gary Gilbreath's article on Rick Ross' website. I don't dispute Gary saying it, but I think the wikipedia articles makes more of this quote than is real. At many times, we have "had no money" as we tend to run our communities that way. I have never heard of us talking about financial reasons for our move from Chattanooga to Island Pond, and the economy of IP was *far worse*, in rural VT, so it really didn't help the bank account. You can leave the reference to Gary's article, if desired, but I would change the wording to remove the suggestion that bankruptcy was a motivating factor. I would think that you would need some financial documentation to support this claim.


In the statement regarding "oddities" in spiritual rituals that was tagged for clarification, I simply removed it for now. Having looked at the page (p.2) in the cited source (the FBI document), it's describing drug use in their "ritual bread" and orgies during rituals. However, looking at the text, this is based on a witness statement of a group member that is unverifiable. Since the FBI document is redacted, it's impossible to determine if the witness is describing hearsay evidence (from another member) - which is what it seems like - or if it is their own statement. Either way, it's only alleged and never further investigated (that I can see). Secondly, this is all from a ] source and these types of documents (FBI investigations, court documents, etc) need to be used judiciously (no pun intended). Since this was rather flimsy, I removed it for now. If it could be better sourced or reworked, it could be returned, but it should be out until it can be addressed. ] (]) 23:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
2. It would be really nice to have more about the Peacemaker buses, as these have been written about in High Times magazine and were a significant part of the Grateful Dead/Phish tour scenes.
* you would not happen to have a link to that somewhere would you?] (]) 23:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


:@Butnerblog I don’t know why we needed to remove it. The entry didn’t say that they did these odd things. The statement is just that the report has allegations of said oddities. The entry stayed within the bounds of facts. It just mentioned it is a fact that the report has those allegations in it. Why would this be a problem?
Tim nice of you to join us, i have been waiting for your input. I would like to put more in on the peacemakers busses and thanks for the tip on a source. that has been a real problem finding reliable sources. On some sources it has been largley conjecture with out fact checking or much facts really; so quite a few i took facts from very biased article and wove them in. While you have obivous Conflict of interest and it his highly recommend that you dont edit this article, however i do think you do have legitimate interest on how these are written. thank you for your points ] (]) 17:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:Thanks ] (]) 20:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
::Hearsay allegations that are never investigated further don't add anything for article quality other than increase the word count. ] (]) 00:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
:::agreed ] (]) 12:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:there were some investigations in Germany that involved their children (I don't think anything got turned up), but perhaps adding in that, the FBI, and the general conclusions from those investigations could be interesting. Perhaps this goes on a different sub-heading, but just brining it up here since @] mentioned "oddities" previously:
:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23977577 ] (]) 12:43, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:43, 6 December 2024

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POV issues

I have tagged the article with POV and Third-party, as a catch-all for all the others I really wanted to use.

Looking through the citations, there are 17 uses of twelvetribes.org (the subject's own website), and 43 uses of Susan Palmer writings (all glowing, supportive, and defensive of the subject group) — too much WP:ABOUTSELF and too much one-sided POV.

There is much content in the article on the order of "we're not a cult, they called us a cult, we're not a cult", but content that describes it as a cult and its associated reliable sources have been omitted or seriously downplayed. The article is instead full of WP:MANDY. The heavy emphasis on "defensiveness" language suggests there are numerous other reliable sources available, though I'm not seeing them in this article... yet. Grorp (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@Grorp: I agree with your assessment; there is far too much reliance on primary-sourced material from the organisation itself. I wondered whether there are scholarly sources that characterise the group as a cult in authorial voice – the answer is yes e.g..
There are of course news organisations and other sources that use the same characterisation. There is a strong case for using this term alongside the term “NRM” in the opening. Cambial — foliar❧ 07:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Much of the defensive sources are from the 80s or 90s (Wright comes to mind), while there have been several serious incidents 20 and 30 years later. Thanks for pointing out the 2019 source.
I had found whitewashed language, like apprenticing "teenagers" to "trades" (letting the reader think 16-18 year olds learning carpentry or welding) when the source said they are apprenticed "by 13" for "crafts and specialized labor" (whatever that means). Or Swantko's wheelbarrow-and-lightbulb defensiveness (MANDY) in the face of an actual government sanction after inspection. We don't know the details; was the work being performed too late at night for a 15-yr-old? Surely it was just a ticket/fine and not a criminal charge; doesn't need a defense, just pay the fine and stop working kids after certain hours. Too much defensiveness is just icky. Such content spin/emphasis portends finding other serious POV problems. I haven't even read the whole thing yet. I suppose DUE/UNDUE should be considered when reading the article as a whole. Grorp (talk) 08:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
It's worth quoting from scholarship which discusses precisely this issue:

Not surprisingly, there are indications that many NRMs are involved in editing, censoring, and writing their own Misplaced Pages entries in an effort to correct or suppress negative information supplied by embittered ex-members or anti-cultists....When associates...see something embarassing on their Misplaced Pages page, they don't worry much about the truth content of the information, or about Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy, they just remove the irksome entry and often put text more favourable to them in its place. Time to add another to the list of whitewashers....When will the Twelve Tribes organisation learn the Twelve Tribes Misplaced Pages pages doesn't belong to them?

All links and most in-text references to sources critical of TT beliefs and practices were removed from the Twelve Tribes Misplaced Pages page back in May...The nice thing about Misplaced Pages is that the history of all edits are preserved...many of the original external links to the Twelve Tribes' Misplaced Pages article have been restored. Among these was the link to the "twelve-tribesteachings" site that archives a collection of hundreds of "teachings" of Spriggs as well as the TT's Intertribal News. Trouble is, these documents were not meant for outsiders' eyes and are a public relations liability for the Tribes...Many are on points of doctrine will stand the hair on your head.

Cambial — foliar❧ 09:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
I have done some cleanup. I still think that based on and others we can call it a cult in Wiki voice or at least note in the lead that it is identified as a cult. "Some government and advocacy groups have labeled it a cult" really doesn't cut it when a major newspaper calls them a cult as a statement of fact. Or there's Twelve Tribes: A Black father’s struggle to pull his child from the racist cult" - no hedge or caveat there, no framing as opinion, this is something their lawyers said could be stated as fact without qualification or scare quotes.
I've heard that most of the younger members have left. Does anyone know if that's true?
Incidentally, there's a couple of episodes of Behind The Bastards on this lot. 82.21.177.66 (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

::::This has been an issue and it’s good it is becoming one again. Some years ago this page was marked by Misplaced Pages as having issues. A user @Tim Kroelermade a lot of this article while being a member. It reads like a PR piece with some attempts at neutrality parsed on where a random editor attempted to fix something. Thanks for bringing this up here. 12.16.115.131 (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Struck through sock of Bagofscrews. Doug Weller talk 07:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Some of these SPS were added by myself. These are however sources on their business operations and so are entirely different. Different subjects. I hope you don't intend to remove such unrelated material. Invasive Spices (talk) 18:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


References

  1. Whitsett, Doni; Rosow, Natasha Post (2019). "Global Violence of Women in Cults". In Zaleski, Kristen; Enrile, Annalisa; Weiss, Eugenia; Wang, Xiying (eds.). Women's Journey to Empowerment in the 21st Century: A Transnational Feminist Analysis of Women's Lives in Modern Times. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 343–368. doi:10.1093/oso/9780190927097.001.0001. ISBN 9780190927097. The Twelve Tribes of Israel is an existing cult that still functions with thriving communities...Sarah's former cult, The Twelve Tribes, is still very much intact and flourishing on four continents. It recently appeared in the news after authorities in Cambridge, New York, discovered child labor law infractions at one of its communities. This has also happened in Germany, where the court recently held up the removal of children from a large Twelve Tribes community in Bavaria.
  2. Lalich, Janja; McLaren, Karla (2018). Escaping Utopia: Growing Up in a Cult, Getting Out, and Starting Over. Abingdon/New York: Routledge. pp. 16–20, 88–89. ISBN 978-1-138-23973-9. In fact, many Twelve Tribes escapees eventually return to the cult because they can't tolerate the supposed evils of the outside world...Children in most cults are required to study, attend lengthy indoctrination sessions or church services, and work. For instance, the many businesses of the Twelve Tribes involved extensive child labor.
  3. Nahon-Serfaty, Isaac; Ahmed, Rukhsana, eds. (2014). New Media and Communication Across Religions and Cultures. Hershey, PA: Information Science Reference. pp. 101–102. ISBN 9781466650350.

Archiving

@Butlerblog: You immediately swapped out the archival tool I set up before it even had a chance to run a cycle. But your archiving bot isn't picking up the two old threads (2014 & 2016), whereas I know the archive bot I set up would have done so. I'm changing it back. Please let it run through its cycle at least once. Grorp (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Grorp: My apologies on the mixup. It was not intentional actually. When I made my edit, I honestly did not even notice the edit history and that you had actually just implemented archiving. I was looking at the wikimarkup alone and thinking that it wasn't archiving (which of course it wasn't because it was just set up). A total snafu on my part and I can see from your perspective it may have seemed like I was trying to undo your bot setup, which was not the case at all. So please completely ignore that mess and proceed as needed with your bot config. ButlerBlog (talk) 02:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Holy cow, that bot is on the ball! I thought it would take 24 hours, but it just ran and archived those two old threads. Thanks for the explanation. How about we leave it as it is. Grorp (talk) 02:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
That's great! Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? (So I won't try to ;-) ) ButlerBlog (talk) 12:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Unverified tag

@Butlerblog: (Several times now?) you have reverted my "unverified" tag (with no explanation from you), so I looked even closer. This is what I found.

Although the source given (when translated from German to English) says "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer showed that after the police raids in September 2013, the doctors found no evidence of ill-treatment," the source is from APA-OTS which is a distributor of press releases (like PR Newswire). See their impressum. So I went to the source (given by link at the bottom of original citation) which is a redirect (http://www.ots.at/redirect/foref2) to . Not currently available, but is available through wayback machine. That leads to the old website for FOREF Europe (foref.info). I see they have a new website https://foref-europe.org/ which fortunately is in English.

FOREF Europe is an advocacy group for freedom of religion. Per WP:PRSOURCE, I really don't think this press release is a reliable source for repeating verbatim the English-translation version "Sociologist of religion Susan Palmer pointed out that the doctors found no evidence of mistreatment in September 2013 following the police raids."

Also, since "the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German move to take away the children from the sect", then Palmer's statement hints of WP:MANDY and probably shouldn't be mentioned in the article at all. (This English FOREF document shows their activism and ideas on this incident in all its POV glory. Also not a reliable source to use in Misplaced Pages, but interesting all the same.) Though there may not have been "marks" on the children at the time of the raid, there were routine canings on the children prior, which is why they were picked up in the first place.

Analogy: If I smack you today and it makes a pink handprint on your cheek, but it's not there tomorrow, does that mean I cannot be arrested tomorrow for assault because you no longer have any remaining mark on your face?

Mentioning this "single point in time" statement from Palmer is WP:UNDUE and I don't think the wiki article would be lacking if the sentence were removed altogether. Grorp (talk) 00:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The tag you used is {{failed verification}}, and I did explain why I removed it in my edit summary - the source says verbatim what was being cited in the article. Based on all the other things you noted, along with the fact that my edit summary was unclear to you, I think maybe you're using the wrong tag for your purpose. You have to make sure you're using the right tags if you want other editors to know what you're intending to convey - whether that's that a better source is needed, that it's not a reliable source, etc. As far as everything else you noted, while I would probably disagree that it is UNDUE, but I would agree that it probably doesn't matter one way or the other whether it's removed. If it is in fact a press release, then it really should be, as that's not really a useable source. I'll leave that up to you as to whether you want to remove it or retag it (with a more appropriate tag); but as far as marking it as failed verification, the source cited says what is in the article, so it should not be tagged (at least with that particular tag). ButlerBlog (talk) 01:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Yes. It wasn't until after I'd drafted the above message, and then posted it, that I saw you'd made another edit which had an explanation. (Two ships passing in the night.) I didn't look back on earlier edits, but I could have sworn this was earlier cited to a book which just didn't mention it (hence unverif) and since today it wasn't a book that's why I went diving. No worries. Today's "deep dig" showed it was likely sourced to an unreliable source anyway, so I will remove the sentence and citation since I don't think it adds any value to the story. Grorp (talk) 01:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC) Argh. Sometimes I'm just blind. I just didn't see your edit summary, sorry. Grorp (talk) 01:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
No problem! ButlerBlog (talk) 03:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Not B class

"Readers are not left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher."

This article is not remotely close to B class. Way too much missing information. For example, nothing about the hostels the communities run. Nothing about the extramarital affairs of Marsha Spriggs or the fact that she was the de facto leader. 173.243.167.206 (talk) 20:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Way too much missing information is subjective. Encyclopedia articles by nature are not expected to cover every minute detail of a topic - that's what books are for - rather, it should summarize key points available in reliable sources; and it does that. Additionally, B-class does not mean "all encompassing". Carefully re-read what you quoted from the assessment guide: the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher. ButlerBlog (talk) 23:21, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

"Oddities"

In the statement regarding "oddities" in spiritual rituals that was tagged for clarification, I simply removed it for now. Having looked at the page (p.2) in the cited source (the FBI document), it's describing drug use in their "ritual bread" and orgies during rituals. However, looking at the text, this is based on a witness statement of a group member that is unverifiable. Since the FBI document is redacted, it's impossible to determine if the witness is describing hearsay evidence (from another member) - which is what it seems like - or if it is their own statement. Either way, it's only alleged and never further investigated (that I can see). Secondly, this is all from a primary source and these types of documents (FBI investigations, court documents, etc) need to be used judiciously (no pun intended). Since this was rather flimsy, I removed it for now. If it could be better sourced or reworked, it could be returned, but it should be out until it can be addressed. ButlerBlog (talk) 23:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Butnerblog I don’t know why we needed to remove it. The entry didn’t say that they did these odd things. The statement is just that the report has allegations of said oddities. The entry stayed within the bounds of facts. It just mentioned it is a fact that the report has those allegations in it. Why would this be a problem?
Thanks 108.28.104.101 (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Hearsay allegations that are never investigated further don't add anything for article quality other than increase the word count. ButlerBlog (talk) 00:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
agreed Dickenseditor (talk) 12:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
there were some investigations in Germany that involved their children (I don't think anything got turned up), but perhaps adding in that, the FBI, and the general conclusions from those investigations could be interesting. Perhaps this goes on a different sub-heading, but just brining it up here since @Butlerblog mentioned "oddities" previously:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23977577 Dickenseditor (talk) 12:43, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
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