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:''The following is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in ]. No further edits should be made to this page.''

The article was '''not promoted''' by ] 02:50, 23 December 2009 .
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I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the FA criteria. 30 November 2009 will be the 70th anniversary of the start of the war. Currently GA, and A-Class on WikiProject Military history. ] (]) 16:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC) I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the FA criteria. 30 November 2009 will be the 70th anniversary of the start of the war. Currently GA, and A-Class on WikiProject Military history. ] (]) 16:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

:: '''Restart''', '''Images, alt text and dabs''' cleared. ] (])


* '''Comments''' - * '''Comments''' -
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* LIkewise http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/english? * LIkewise http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/english?
:*A source is semi-reliable. However, added more reliable ]. ] (]) 16:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC) :*A source is semi-reliable. However, added more reliable ]. ] (]) 16:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
* Current ref 18 (Krivosheyev...) needs a page number in additon to the link. Also, this link seems to redirect to a website in Russian, needs to note that and is this a reprint of the book?</s>
:*Done (Thanks Illyth!) ] (]) 16:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
* <s>What makes http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=62 a reliable source?</s>
:* Semi-reliable. Mika Kulju's book "Raatteen tie" has more reliable figures. ] (]) 16:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
* <s>What makes http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=92 a reliable source?</s>
:* Not reliable (Misplaced Pages as a source). Instead added Mika Kulju. ] (]) 16:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
: Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. ] - ] 17:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC) : Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. ] - ] 17:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
::I don't regard either www.axishistory.com or www.feldgrau.com as being reliable sources as they both rely on material submitted by amateurs, and would strongly suggest that you replace these references with refs to the books you mention. ] (]) 23:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC) ::I don't regard either www.axishistory.com or www.feldgrau.com as being reliable sources as they both rely on material submitted by amateurs, and would strongly suggest that you replace these references with refs to the books you mention. ] (]) 23:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
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:: I'd also like to point out that the ] now require "high-quality reliable sources" so things that the nominator themselves admits are "semi-reliable" aren't good enough. ] - ] 00:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC) :: I'd also like to point out that the ] now require "high-quality reliable sources" so things that the nominator themselves admits are "semi-reliable" aren't good enough. ] - ] 00:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
::: Karjalan liitto and Helsingin Sanomat have basicly a same message. The issue is well known, and there is the article ]. Still, maybe remove of Karjalan liitto as a source? Furthermore, axishistory.com, feldgrau.com and db2.com are removed. ] (]) 07:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC) ::: Karjalan liitto and Helsingin Sanomat have basicly a same message. The issue is well known, and there is the article ]. Still, maybe remove of Karjalan liitto as a source? Furthermore, axishistory.com, feldgrau.com and db2.com are removed. ] (]) 07:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' (I'm not sure if I need to vote again in this relisted FA) ] (]) 04:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''&mdash;Overall a fine article on an obscure (for most of the world) conflict. My main issue is that the lead section does not properly cover the actual war. I would at least expect to see mention of the motti tactics, the Mannerheim line, and the main Russian assaults. The word "]" is used in the article but not explained or wikilinked. But otherwise I think the article is of FA quality. Thanks.&mdash;] (]) 21:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' but I would like to see one or two lines in the section ] about the current politics about the return of Karelia. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 06:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


'''Comments''' – Offered some suggestions at the first FAC and will do so here as well.
*<s>Soviet–Finnish prewar negotiations: Commas before and after first use of Boris Yartsev?</s>
**Not sure, but a comma added. ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
*<s>War preparations: "Furthermore, the Finns would lease the Hanko Peninsula for the thirty years". I'm a bit confused by "the thirty years" since I don't see a mention of such a time period before this. Not sure what this is supposed to be referring to.</s>
**"have to" added? ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
*<s>The shelling of Mainila: Remove space before three-reference block.</s>
*<s>"claimed that the Finnish response was hostile and the non-aggression pact." Sentence cuts off abruptly, and an important part is not present.</s>
**The section now re-edited by Illythr. ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
*<s>Soviet policy and military offensive: Delink the date here. Linked days have been discouraged in most cases for a while now.</s>
**Done. ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
*<s>Finnish order of battle: "The frontier with the Soviet Union was more than ." Get that excess period out of there, while you're handling these other tasks.</s>
**Not sure, suggestions? ] (]) 21:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned about a few of the simple typographical errors, but most of what I read was okay. Best of luck. ''']''' (]) 03:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
*'''Comments''':
** Nowhere in the article does it actually state ''why'' it's called the "Winter War". Yes, it was fought during the northern winter of 1939-40, but assuming that people can infer this without having the information supplied to them assumes a particular POV of the reader. Perhaps the lead sentence in the article could have something like "during the northern winter of 1939-40" added to it?
** ''The puppet regime was unsuccessful and was quietly disbanded during the winter of 1940.''
**# Is a more precise date available from primary references to comply with ]?
**# If a more precise date cannot be sourced from primary references, this still needs amendment because it is ambiguous. ''Which'' "winter of 1940" is intended here, 1939-40 or 1940-41?
***"in early 1940." ] (]) 22:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
** ''The Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania had consented to Soviet demands in autumn 1939'': Does not comply with ]. I suggest rewording this to something like "in late 1939" or "by mid-October, 1939" to comply with ].
***"by October 1939." ] (]) 22:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
** The plural of "aircraft" in English is "aircraft", not "aircrafts". --] (], ]) 03:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
***Done. ] (]) 22:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


;Comments
'''Technical comments'''
This is a great article and I enjoyed reading it. I do have a few comments; once these have been resolved, I'll be ready to support.
*No ] or ], which is good.
*Citation dates are consistent Day Month Year after a minor edit.
*All images have ]. The Joseph Stalin navbox had default "Joseph Stalin.jpg" alt text, so I changed that. <del>Some of the earlier alt text has text not obvious from seeing only the image—there may be more such problems:</del>
**<del>For the first one, perhaps just "A group of soldiers are wearing snowsuits and aiming a heavy machine gun."? (The caption already says they are Finnish, which is not entirely obvious from the image.)</del>
**<del>For the "Background" map, specify the Baltic countries.</del>
**<del>Instead of "The signature ceremony in a small office in Helsinki.", maybe "Two men sign papers at opposite sides of a table in a small office"?</del>
**<del>Instead of "Several people surround walking Paasikivi. The picture is taken at the front.", try to describe the group of men wearing hats to the left, the woman to the right, and the crowd behind.</del>
--] ''']''' ] 18:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
::Fixed. ] (]) 08:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Struck issues (finally). I changed ref 24 to be a bulleted list of cites instead of the "]" bunch. --] ''']''' ] <small>(])</small> 09:45, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I think that this excellent article easily meets the FA criteria. ] (]) 07:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' A very good article, in my opinion. — ] (]) 10:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. ''Alt text done; thanks.'' <s>Alt text is present (thanks!), but it has some problems:</s>

:: Resolved alt text commentary moved to ]. ] (]) 20:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

:::::: Thanks; it looks good now. ] (]) 15:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Resolved 1a, 1c, 2c issues at ] <s>Nearly resolved: 1a, 1c, Fully resolved: 2c ; expect it will make it, it looks great. I can't see any 1d issues which is very good.</s> ] (]) 22:21, November 25, 2009


*'''Image review''' <s>(Temporary '''Oppose''')</s> ('''Support''' on images <font color="navy">''']</font>''' ''(<font color="green">]</font>)'' 02:08, 21 November 2009 (UTC))
:: Resolved image commentary moved to ]. ] (]) 20:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

*'''Congratulations''' on a very good opening paragraph which includes the major details that a reader needs to know. ] (]) 13:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


Explanation of some of the edits I made:
'''Comments''' – Picked this one up on the backlog list, and it really is a fascinating read. These comments cover only the first few sections; hopefully other reviewers can give the rest some attention.
*Deleted "However because of failures" - felt this was unnecessary, as the note should only be about who commanded when. If you wish to reinstate it, I have no problem with that, but it should be rephrased, because this wording is vague.
*<s>Unless there's material in the lead not backed up by the body, the lead doesn't require references unless the material is controversial or part of a quotation. Perhaps a couple of the statistics-related cites in the lead should be removed, though I don't consider it mandatory by any means.</s>
*Deleted "While the Government of Sweden was aware..." - I think the information that they were aware is unnecessary; unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, it's fairly reasonable to assume that governments know whom their militaries are cooperating with.
*<s>Watch for overlinking; I see an unnecessary second Moscow Peace Treaty link just in the lead.</s>
*<s>"Moreover, the war cast heavy doubt on the fighting ability of the Red Army, a doubt that may have contributed to Adolf Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa." Little redundacy hiding in here with a pair of "doubt"s, one modifying the other. To fix this, either change one of them or make secind one "which may have contributed".</s>
*<s>Comma after Finns in "The Finns however,".</s>
*<s>Politics of Finland before the war: "Another Finnish miltary policy was the top secret military cooperation between the Finland and Estonia." Drop second "the", as it is ungrammatical.</s>
*<s>Soviet–Finnish relations and politics before the War: "Finnish–Soviet border" should probably have an en dash instead of the hyphen, if the section title is any indication.</s>
*<s>"Despite the signing the treaty". Missing "of" in the middle.</s>
*<s>Again you have multiple links in a section, this time C.G.E. Mannerheim. A run-through of the remainder of the article for similar overlinking may be beneficial.</s>
*<s>"and wanted the newly-christened city of Leningrad to enjoy a similar security." No hyphen after -ly here.</s>
*<s>Picky reference formatting comments: Ref 17 should have an en dash for the page range, and ref 18 should give the page number as p., not pp.; the latter problem also exists in several of the books in the bibliography.</s> ''']''' (]) 01:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
:Done/Fixed, except the lead. "Too many citations" is usually better, as getting (fact) tagged is easy (my humble opinion). ] (]) 09:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


Comments:
'''Comments''' – Also picked it from the backlog list.
*Shouldn't references be placed within the notes in the infobox? That makes for less clutter.
*"Moreover, the war cast doubt on the fighting ability of the Red Army, which may have contributed to Adolf Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa." There's nothing about this in the rest of the article. I sort of expected to find it under "Germany" down the bottom. So it's really unreferenced.
**You are correct. This would need a strong source. Removed. ] (]) 12:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC) **Multiple sources used here. Besides, every detailed number is continuously under doubt, so in many cases numbers presented need good source + commentary. ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
***I understand. My question is: would it be good to place the other refs ''inside'' the narrative footnotes that explain the numbers, so that fewer refs appear directly in the infobox? ] 12:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*"Finally, the Soviet forces did not accomplish their objective of the total conquest of Finland" There's nothing in the article to suggest that this was the Soviet objective.
*<s>How do you get to the total of 235 aircraft? 114 + 7 + <100 = <221</s>
**There are some background and Soviet goals in the article ]. Furthermore, I will upload a suitable map of Soviet goals near future to that article. ] (]) 12:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
**173 aircraft and 43 reserve aircraft. ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*"At this time, to protect their imperial capital Saint Petersburg, Imperial Russia" "their" should be "its"
*<s>"Sovereignty was fully achieved in May, 1918 after a short ] and the expulsion of Bolshevik troops." - you obviously don't want to go into too much detail here, but I am afraid this is unclear. In what way was sovereignty not fully achieved before? What were those Bolsheviks doing there when they had already recognized the country's independence?</s>
**Done. ] (]) 12:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
**Bolsheviks recognized the country's independence, but they also wanted a revolution. This was one of reasons for Finnish Civil War. ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*"Finland enjoyed wide autonomy and its own Senate until the turn of the century, when Russia began to assimilate Finland as part of a general policy to strengthen the central government and unify the Empire by Russification." Suggest linking to ] instead of ].
**Unlinked (previous sentence). ] (]) 12:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC) ***On second reading, it looks good enough. ] 12:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*"artillery preparation" Why is this red-linked? Do you intend to create an article? "Barrage", on the other hand can be linked but I don't think that it ''was'' a barrage - see that article for a formal definition. Suggest: "The Battle of Taipale began with a forty-hour Soviet artillery preparation."
**Done. ] (]) 12:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
All in all, a fine article. ] (]) 06:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - Well-written and well-organized, with good structure. Some minor points: There are some short paragraphs and one-sentence paragraphs in subsections ''War preparations'', ''Soviet political and military offensive'', ''Navies in frost'', ''Finnish views'', ''Soviet views'', and ''Germany''. I would suggest upmerging. Also, I'd recommend renaming the section ''Notes'' to ''Footnotes'', and calling the section named ''Citations'' to ''Notes'' and ''Bibliography'' to ''References'', and remove the sub-levels. But that is sort of a personal preference. ''']''' (]) 19:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
'''Oppose'''—the lead shows a lot of redundant wording, and other prose issues that need to be cleaned up. Is it all like that?
*"The Soviet forces had three times as many soldiers as the Finns, 30 times as many aircraft and a hundred times as many tanks." Add a comma.
*"Because of the combination of these factors,"—remove three words and one comma.
*"Finland was able to successfully resist the Soviet invasion for"—remove one word.
*"However, the Red Army had recently been crippled by a drastic purge in 1937"—So 1937 was recent.
*"The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal, and the Soviet Union was expelled from the League on 14 December." The causality needs to be more explicit.
*"Soviet losses on the front were heavy and the country's international reputation also suffered." Remove one word.
*"The peace treaty thwarted the half-hearted Franco–British plan to send troops to Finland"—"a half-hearted", since we don't know about it yet.


*<s>"two parishes" - I would consider the USSR to be among the most unlikely countries in the world to be divided into parishes.</s>
You might consider working through ]. ] ] 13:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
*Redundancy done. ] (]) 18:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC) **Municipalities. ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*Why do you address the historiography of the ''casus belli'' twice in separate paragraphs?
*"Fewer than half of the officers remained in total." - lead says that "up to" (i.e., less than) 50% were purged.
**Added "over 30,000", which is also mentioned in book ''Talvisodan pikkujättiläinen''. ] (]) 19:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
*"more than {{convert|1000|km|mi}} long" - any chance on getting the precise figure?
*"Soviet movements were frozen solid" - beautiful wording
*<s>"Although the Karelian Isthmus front was less active in December than in January," - can't understand this. It's not the other way around, is it?</s>
**You are correct. Done. ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*<s>German invasion plan - of Finland? Or Sweden? Or is this the invasion of Denmark and Norway they actually carried out?</s>
**Scandinavian Countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark - not Finland). ] (]) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
*A bit weird to start talking about aerial and naval warfare after the part about the peace negotiations. Perhaps you should move the entire negotiations part to the "Peace of Moscow" section. Or is this established MILHIST structure?
] 04:24, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' for now. Sadly, because this is a great article that is really very close, but we can't have an FA that contradicts itself (on how many Soviet officers were purged, see comment above). ] 02:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


*'''Oppose'''. This is factually deficient. This piece of writing is unsophisticated in both content and style. The presentations of the Soviet military concerns and of the negotiations are superficial and minimal. There is a totally misleading insinuation—cleverly just an insinuation—that the USSR actually wanted to reacquire all of Finland. No use is made of the book, Anthony F. Upton, 1974, ''Finland, 1939-1940''. Presenting the progress of the hostilities to the level of minutiae is unencyclopedic. Even leaving objections to the content aside, the lead does not represent the content well; this is a very poor lead. Yes, the article can boast photos and a long list of references most of them not in English, and often this is what earns an FA. But the way things are is not necessarily the way they ought to be. Some trivial flaws: (1) the word "operation" in the lead is inappropriate; (2) the language labeling in the bibliography is not in the latest Misplaced Pages style because it does not use the "language icon" template. I will apply them myself. ] (]) 23:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
'''Weak oppose from Maralia''' - oppose because I don't think it's ready, but 'weak' because I think it ''could'' still make it through in this FAC, with diligent work. I reviewed the lead and the last 4 sections.
**Closed, so response in ]. ] (]) 08:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
*Dashes need a review as there are errors throughout (they're not all wrong, but many are). Franco-British should be hyphenated, not endashed. Why does "East-Karelian Uprising" have any kind of dash? Why is "Ladoga-Karelia" hyphenated in two instances but not any other? "German–Soviet relations" should be endashed. "Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact" should be endashed.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Spaced endashes are in use for parenthetical statements – which is fine – but the one unspaced emdash used for the same should be changed to an endash for consistency.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Image caption text needs a review throughout for punctuation: only full sentences should end with fullstops (with the exception of the very lengthy, multi-'sentence' captions where precise grammar is suspended for reasons of brevity).
**Few fixes made. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*The numerous notes and footnotes in the infobox make it very difficult to read the infobox text. You might consider combining those cites.
**I'm my opinion a separation is more clear. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
From the lead:
*"The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union on 14 December." - it is not clear whether this is 14 December 1939 or 1940.
**1939. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
From 'Naval warfare':
*Overlinking: ]ly is an awfully common word.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Ship names should be italicized.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Baltic Sea should always be capitalized.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Numerical figures need conversions: 305 mm gun, 305 mm gun battery, 234 mm coastal guns.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*"high-explosive shells of 152 millimetres (6 in) calibre" - the plural millimetres is incorrect here; there is also inconsistency as the unit for other size figures is abbreviated.
**Do you mean different figures? Different posts had different sized guns, for example in Helsinki region there was 305 mm and 152 mm, but in Russarö 234 mm gun. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*"The Soviets already knew the locations of the Finnish coastal batteries but were surprised that their firing range was much longer than expected." - awkward; 'but their firing range was much longer than expected'; or 'but were surprised by their firing range'.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
From 'Foreign support':
*"The military coordination Committee of the War Cabinet met the next day" - unclear; is this the War Cabinet's military coordination committee? Was it actually called the Military Coordination Committee?
**by the source, but changed to "Military Coordination Committee". ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*Overlinking: at this late point in the article, do we need to link ], or ]?
**London only linked once, Allies changed linkings. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*"This demand was made in new notes sent to Norway and Sweden on 6 January, but these too were rejected six days later." -'new' is unnecessary here. Isn't 'notes' an awfully informal term for these?
**Redundancy done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
From 'Aftermath':
*"The 15 month period between the Winter War and the Continuation War" - this should be 15-month period.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*However, the Finns had taken a hostile stance to "please foreign imperialists." - this fullstop should be outside the quotation marks.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
*I see that 'matériel' is used repeatedly; please fix the one instance of 'materiel'.
**Done. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
The MOS issues should be easily fixed; they are not the basis for my oppose. I just don't feel the prose is quite there yet. I see hints of what may be non-native English (such as "In April 1938, an NKVD agent Boris Yartsev contacted the Finnish foreign minister"). Attention is needed to wikilinking throughout; there are too many common-word or repeated links (Russian Empire is linked twice in one sentence!), and links are missing for some more obscure terms (]). I also noticed quite a few instances of redundant wording, as pointed out above by Tony. In my opinion, this needs the 'easiest' kind of copyedit: the logic and flow of the prose is generally fine, but some fine-tuning is needed, mostly to pare down redundant wording. I would be happy to help with this, but I will be offline for the next few days. Good luck, in any case; you've clearly put a lot of effort into this, and it shows. ] (]) 19:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
**Please, extra hands (especially natives) are always needed. ] (]) 08:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


*'''Lean Support''' - a few minor things, and overall it seems good in terms of logic and sources. The last sentence in "Suomussalmi–Raate double operation" needs a citation. The last sentence of the first paragraph in "Finnish Lapland" needs a citation. As a side note, there were too many "had"s within the article where standard past tense would be fine. ] (]) 19:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)


:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> No further edits should be made to this page.''</div><!--FAbottom--><!--Tagged by FA bot-->
*I have a few concerns. Firstly, there's the claim that the Soviets intended to conquer all of Finland&mdash;my understanding is that's a contested historical claim. The Soviets did set up a puppet government during the war, but they also offered peace on terms that were only slightly more harsh than their initial pre-war demands. Secondly, I think the article would benefit from more extensive use of Russian scholarship on the subject. ] (]) 06:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
**1) Russian scholarship, mostly ], is used via Finnish books where he has written articles and studies. Also some short references to Pavel Aptekar and Grigoriy Krivosheyev. 2) "Conquer all Finland" is very well recorded. The Red Army occupied East Poland and the Baltic States by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. In Operational Plans during 1930s, Finland was intended to cut half and march to Oulu and in south march to Helsinki. These plans were later updated but basics were same when the Soviets started the Winter War. The planning phases are described in memoirs of A.A. Vasilevski and also K.A. Meretskov. According to Merestkov, Stalin himself gave Meretkov a command to create a "counterattack" (Soviet terminology) plan against Finland in June 1939. The plan was ready July, and Stalin and Voroshilov short the conquer deadline, to reach Helsinki, in two weeks. There were also some other minor evidences such as Dmitri Shostakovich's theme to be performed in Helsinki. See also: ]. ] (]) 09:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
**I don't think having operational plans is quite the same as political intent. It doesn't really explain why the Soviets stopped the war in early March 1940. If they actually wanted to conquer Finland, that was the time to do it. ] (]) 17:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
***We do not know for sure why Stalin stopped the invasion though the plan was to march all the way to Helsinki. Russia has not opened (for contemporary political reasons) all parts of the Moscow Archieves, where the issue might receive more light. We can only put pieces together, and presume that the Moscow Peace was a combination of differents issues, where the Franco-British intervention was probably the biggest reason. ] (]) 18:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:40, 21 May 2022

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:50, 23 December 2009 .

Winter War

Nominator(s): Peltimikko (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the FA criteria. 30 November 2009 will be the 70th anniversary of the start of the war. Currently GA, and A-Class on WikiProject Military history. Peltimikko (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Restart, old nom. Images, alt text and dabs cleared. SandyGeorgia (Talk)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't regard either www.axishistory.com or www.feldgrau.com as being reliable sources as they both rely on material submitted by amateurs, and would strongly suggest that you replace these references with refs to the books you mention. Nick-D (talk) 23:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Removed. Peltimikko (talk) 05:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed your strike throughs, generally at FAC the person who makes the comment/concern strikes through when they feel the issues is resolved. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out that the FA criteria now require "high-quality reliable sources" so things that the nominator themselves admits are "semi-reliable" aren't good enough. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Karjalan liitto and Helsingin Sanomat have basicly a same message. The issue is well known, and there is the article Karelian question in Finnish politics. Still, maybe remove of Karjalan liitto as a source? Furthermore, axishistory.com, feldgrau.com and db2.com are removed. Peltimikko (talk) 07:41, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Support (I'm not sure if I need to vote again in this relisted FA) Nick-D (talk) 04:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment—Overall a fine article on an obscure (for most of the world) conflict. My main issue is that the lead section does not properly cover the actual war. I would at least expect to see mention of the motti tactics, the Mannerheim line, and the main Russian assaults. The word "revanche" is used in the article but not explained or wikilinked. But otherwise I think the article is of FA quality. Thanks.—RJH (talk) 21:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support but I would like to see one or two lines in the section Winter_War#Aftermath about the current politics about the return of Karelia. User:Zscout370 06:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments – Offered some suggestions at the first FAC and will do so here as well.

  • Soviet–Finnish prewar negotiations: Commas before and after first use of Boris Yartsev?
  • War preparations: "Furthermore, the Finns would lease the Hanko Peninsula for the thirty years". I'm a bit confused by "the thirty years" since I don't see a mention of such a time period before this. Not sure what this is supposed to be referring to.
  • The shelling of Mainila: Remove space before three-reference block.
  • "claimed that the Finnish response was hostile and the non-aggression pact." Sentence cuts off abruptly, and an important part is not present.
  • Soviet policy and military offensive: Delink the date here. Linked days have been discouraged in most cases for a while now.
  • Finnish order of battle: "The frontier with the Soviet Union was more than ." Get that excess period out of there, while you're handling these other tasks.

I'm a bit concerned about a few of the simple typographical errors, but most of what I read was okay. Best of luck. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Comments:
    • Nowhere in the article does it actually state why it's called the "Winter War". Yes, it was fought during the northern winter of 1939-40, but assuming that people can infer this without having the information supplied to them assumes a particular POV of the reader. Perhaps the lead sentence in the article could have something like "during the northern winter of 1939-40" added to it?
    • The puppet regime was unsuccessful and was quietly disbanded during the winter of 1940.
      1. Is a more precise date available from primary references to comply with WP:SEASON?
      2. If a more precise date cannot be sourced from primary references, this still needs amendment because it is ambiguous. Which "winter of 1940" is intended here, 1939-40 or 1940-41?
    • The Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania had consented to Soviet demands in autumn 1939: Does not comply with WP:SEASON. I suggest rewording this to something like "in late 1939" or "by mid-October, 1939" to comply with WP:SEASON.
    • The plural of "aircraft" in English is "aircraft", not "aircrafts". -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 03:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Comments

This is a great article and I enjoyed reading it. I do have a few comments; once these have been resolved, I'll be ready to support.

Explanation of some of the edits I made:

  • Deleted "However because of failures" - felt this was unnecessary, as the note should only be about who commanded when. If you wish to reinstate it, I have no problem with that, but it should be rephrased, because this wording is vague.
  • Deleted "While the Government of Sweden was aware..." - I think the information that they were aware is unnecessary; unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, it's fairly reasonable to assume that governments know whom their militaries are cooperating with.

Comments:

  • Shouldn't references be placed within the notes in the infobox? That makes for less clutter.
    • Multiple sources used here. Besides, every detailed number is continuously under doubt, so in many cases numbers presented need good source + commentary. Peltimikko (talk) 08:44, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
      • I understand. My question is: would it be good to place the other refs inside the narrative footnotes that explain the numbers, so that fewer refs appear directly in the infobox? Ucucha 12:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • How do you get to the total of 235 aircraft? 114 + 7 + <100 = <221
  • "Sovereignty was fully achieved in May, 1918 after a short civil war and the expulsion of Bolshevik troops." - you obviously don't want to go into too much detail here, but I am afraid this is unclear. In what way was sovereignty not fully achieved before? What were those Bolsheviks doing there when they had already recognized the country's independence?
  • "two parishes" - I would consider the USSR to be among the most unlikely countries in the world to be divided into parishes.
  • Why do you address the historiography of the casus belli twice in separate paragraphs?
  • "Fewer than half of the officers remained in total." - lead says that "up to" (i.e., less than) 50% were purged.
  • "more than 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) long" - any chance on getting the precise figure?
  • "Soviet movements were frozen solid" - beautiful wording
  • "Although the Karelian Isthmus front was less active in December than in January," - can't understand this. It's not the other way around, is it?
  • German invasion plan - of Finland? Or Sweden? Or is this the invasion of Denmark and Norway they actually carried out?
  • A bit weird to start talking about aerial and naval warfare after the part about the peace negotiations. Perhaps you should move the entire negotiations part to the "Peace of Moscow" section. Or is this established MILHIST structure?

Ucucha 04:24, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose for now. Sadly, because this is a great article that is really very close, but we can't have an FA that contradicts itself (on how many Soviet officers were purged, see comment above). Ucucha 02:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is factually deficient. This piece of writing is unsophisticated in both content and style. The presentations of the Soviet military concerns and of the negotiations are superficial and minimal. There is a totally misleading insinuation—cleverly just an insinuation—that the USSR actually wanted to reacquire all of Finland. No use is made of the book, Anthony F. Upton, 1974, Finland, 1939-1940. Presenting the progress of the hostilities to the level of minutiae is unencyclopedic. Even leaving objections to the content aside, the lead does not represent the content well; this is a very poor lead. Yes, the article can boast photos and a long list of references most of them not in English, and often this is what earns an FA. But the way things are is not necessarily the way they ought to be. Some trivial flaws: (1) the word "operation" in the lead is inappropriate; (2) the language labeling in the bibliography is not in the latest Misplaced Pages style because it does not use the "language icon" template. I will apply them myself. Hurmata (talk) 23:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.