Misplaced Pages

I think it's utterly useless, actually. It's a standard 'ban one from each side' decision. While the proposed principles do identify some of the problems (sourcing, due & undue weight), it's like they forgot about them beyond that point. There's nothing in that decision which actually suggests that they read any of the evidence or workshop, or did anything to actually educate themselves about what's going on. And there's absolutely nothing in that decision that will do anything to defuse the situation. Guettarda (talk) 11:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You are likely right, though it will depend on the voting. What puzzles me is how they took so long over this - any fool could have scrawled that on the back of a fag packet in 5 mins from the opening of the case William M. Connolley (talk) 12:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

They have not gotten hold of the situation by the scruff of the neck and it appears that Lar agrees on this. This has not really solved anything. WEAK WEAK WEAK Polargeo (talk) 12:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps intentionally so. There seemed to be an intent to lower the volume of the controversy by doing the bare minimum. ScottyBerg (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

An acceptable strategy if CC enforcement was not in place already but not acceptable if there is a failled system overseeing CC enforcement. Arbcom has effectively endorsed a failled system. Polargeo (talk) 12:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I doubt it. If you haven't already, read Boris' Pocket Guide to Arbitration. That pretty much sums it up. I have seen dozens of cases that simply default to something like this - ignore the underlying issues, and hand out a few bans. Arbitration enforcement (AE) was an innovation a couple years back, which helped a little. So it's now thrown at every case as well. This result could have been written without looking at the case. In fact, it was, if you look at what the vandal was posting on the PD page yesterday. They captured the essence of the decision. Guettarda (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

So a cry going out to all editors. Lets get rid of enforcement as a community and replace it with somthing better, agreed by all and not depending on arbcom. Polargeo (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I would want to see all editors involved in this. Polargeo (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The CC enforcement failed, because it was hijacked by involved admins pretending to be uninvolved. There is no sign of arbcomm dealing with this, nor any sign of the community being able to William M. Connolley (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. I often feel that it was my lone voice when I discovered CC probation and realised that it was not fully community approved but being strongly pushed by a couple of editors that things were going badly wrong. Polargeo (talk) 12:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Replacement of the CC enforcement page with Arbitration Enforcement, which presumably gets a wider readership, was a good idea. One general comment: in retrospect, the process is amazingly opaque. This may seem like a newbie sentiment and it is, but to somebody looking at this process fresh it is amazingly contrary to Misplaced Pages practices, almost like a star chamber. First people have to make proposals, not having any idea if they'll be entertained by the committee. Then the committee deliberates like a jury for weeks or months. The process needs to be opened up. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

@PG: I think we're actually in disagreement, at least in part. I think you view the entirety of the CC probation as bad. I think it could have been helpful, after being setup, had it not been subsequently hijacked by Lar and LHVU William M. Connolley (talk) 13:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but what you don't appreciate is that I had been dealing with enforcement on balkans articles and only saw CC probation as bad and a poor solution based on experience, I found no agreement at the time unfortunately. Polargeo (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The PD is exactly as many of the Cabal members expected -- it's well known that Risker and Rlevse despise you, and the long delay was because they had to win over Brad to get sufficiently humiliating sanctions. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the arbs pay little or no attention to the Evidence/Workshop pages and base their decisions on broad impressions of who the good guys and bad guys are. (It has to be said that your recent actions gave R/R ammunition.) I think Risker's tactic here has been to set the Overton window at her desired boundary; the final decision may not be as extreme. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, you mean initially propose something totally absurd, and hope the rest are too dumb to notice that the final result is still absurd? Anyway, NYB gets his first two tests here William M. Connolley (talk) 13:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I've tended to bend over backwards and to say that arbcom needs time to do this, that they need to read the evidence to make a thoughtful decision. Now I see how wrong I was. This wasn't a thoughtful decision. It doesn't even pretend to be a thoughtful decision. It certainly doesn't read as if it had been carefully hammered out. I was definitely naive in my expectations.ScottyBerg (talk) 14:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, glasshopper, you have much to learn. Meanwhile NYB wimped out of his test so now everyone gets their chance William M. Connolley (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

It was a reasonable position to take. You're just not an old cynic like some of us. In general terms, the decision is entirely in keeping with Boris' Guide to Arbitration. In specific terms, the vandal got it pretty much right (taking into account the fact that the vandal's version was parody). Guettarda (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

There was a lot of truth to that parody, apart from it being very funny. With some modifications it might be usable as a comedy essay. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Proposed_decision&oldid=380300292 if anyone is wondering William M. Connolley (talk) 17:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I don't like about it is the snide reference to articles on the NY Subway system. Some of us are into that. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

If it doesn't offend you in some way, then it's not good satire. Guettarda (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Rlevse has gorn . That's interesting. There is no hint of why, though. Can't say I'm sorry but it would be interesting to know why. R has done some really wacky things with the PD William M. Connolley (talk) 15:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Naughty boy, you ignored Boris' warning to keep a low profile and not to challenge the faulty system too much, yet again. But like last time, your opponents exploited your actions a bit too vigorously, causing their efforts to backfire on them. Count Iblis (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom is coming down heavily in favor of Lar and his faction, going so far as to rewrite the definition of "uninvolved" so as to specifically exclude Lar. WP:ADMIN sez "Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors) and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute." Notice how Arbcom has refudiated the "current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors)" bit and focused solely on content? It's hard to escape the conclusion that Arbcom knew what they wanted to decide long ago, and are assembling the evidence and rewriting policy to fit their preferred outcome. So at the end of the day it wouldn't have mattered if WMC had behaved himself. They were going to nail him no matter what. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised to hear you say that. I don't see that supported by the current round of votes, though who knows what the future will bring William M. Connolley (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm minded to put forward a couple of extra FoF's:

• GJP has been disruptive (I think the totally inapproriate GA review at a time when people were trying to step back was the most obvious; now reversed, happily )
• Minor4th has been disruptive
• ZP5 has been disruptive (in the sense that his disruption to valuable content ratio is infinite)
• JohnWBarber has been disruptive

Other obvious ones are ATren and Cla.

Thoughts? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm chatting with ATren at the moment, who seems (in spite of our disagreements) to be a decent well-meaning fellow.

I would be opposed to any sort of trouble for Cla68; he is a good content contributor and plays by the rules, and I find his behavior to be generally very respectable. Awickert (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Mixed feelings. Cla68 is good at following the letter of the law but disregards its spirit when it suits him. I find his view that we should prefer newspapers above the peer-reviewed literature to be deeply disturbing, but he may come by it honestly given that he appears to have no understanding at all of the scientific aspects of the articles. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I think that this is Cla68's background: he does a very good job of writing various history articles. In all of my interactions with him, he has been very reasonable, so I am sure that we will be able to work out the sourcing issue with him. I feel that, of all of the above, he is by far the most likely to do a substantial amount of useful writing. Awickert (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cla is fine on milhist, I presume; and if he stayed there, all would be well. If you want to see bad faith from him, then Talk:Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change#InterAcademy_Council_report will do. Or his repeated attempts to insert HSI as a reference William M. Connolley (talk) 20:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Anybody remember his antics on the Warm period article? That was strange. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Who could forget As far back as geological proxy measurements go, each warm period has been followed by a cool period. Ed Poor loved it. Though admittedly, I had forgotten. Mind you, Don't you think it would be more helpful to then change the article text to fit what the ref's say? was quite a classic too William M. Connolley (talk) 20:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Might also be worth noting the addition of blog-sourced content to a BLP by Minor4th, which failed to evince the usual moral panic by subsequent editors. Granted, it's a step up from Cla68 and Tillman trying to source content from blog comments, but it's still (a) a BLP, and (b) potentially embarrassing. Guettarda (talk) 19:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cla68 insight? Actually, the whole WR thread is interesting and indicative that there is some synergistic sharing between Lar, Cla68, and Moulton. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

• A specially-tailored version ofdiscretionary sanctions is authorized for the entire topic area of climate change. Enforcement requests are to be submitted to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, which is to replace Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement.
• Experienced administrators, and especially checkusers, are requested to closely monitor new accounts that edit inappropriately in the topic area.
• Within seven days of this remedy passing, all parties must either delete evidence sub-pages or request deletionof them.
• The following editors are banned from the topic area of climate change, and may not appeal this ban until at least six months after the closure of this case (and no more often than every three months thereafter);

• William M. Connolley
• Polargeo
• Thegoodlocust
• Marknutley
• ChrisO
• Minor4th
• ATren
• Hipocrite
• Cla68
• GregJackP
• A Quest For Knowledge
• Verbal
• ZuluPapa5
• JohnWBarber
• FellGleaming

• The following users have accepted binding voluntary topic bans;
  • Scjessey
  • KimDabelsteinPetersen
• The following administrators are explicitly restricted from applying discretionary sanctions as authorized in this case, as is any other administrator fitting the description of an involved administrator;
  • Stephan Schulz
  • Lar

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It is regrettable that you have to work for such poor masters William M. Connolley (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Of the decision:

• the "scorched earth" idea is unthinking and stupid.
• arbcomm demonstrate again an inability to distinguish the valuable from the valueless; indeed, they appear to be too lazy to even try.
• in pursuit of their atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant they have failed to notice that peace has already broken out. For two reasons: the worst of the "skeptics" (MN, M4th, Cla, ATren, TGL) are all gone; and the external forcing (Climatic Research Unit email controversy‎) has been resolved in favour of Climate Science. So all the disruption was for nothing.

About the only good thing about the PD is that it is so obviously bad, it is likely to rebound more to the discredit of arbcomm than anyone else.

Of the process:

• more of it should be open. There were very clearly extensive periods when off-wiki emails between the arbs were the main means of discussion. Some of that must be tolerable, but not to the extent that it is done. The arbs have become as addicted to secrecy as the Civil Service, and it is not good: both because of the dark deeds done in darkness (one example: the unexplained but welcome booting out of Rlevse) and because lack of on-wiki information fostered unease amongst the participants.
• the arbs need to be more involved, and to manage the process. Some are lazy, but none are good. This isn't acceptable. It has become near-expected practice in arbcomm cases for nothing but a few gnomic utterances from arbs during the case. The sheer volume of evidence and discussion produced by petty back-and-forth needs to be rigourously policed. Arbcomm as a whole is fairly lazy, in that they don't really evaluate the actual abckground to a case - that would be too much trouble, and they never bother. Instead, they rely on behaviour *during* a case, and part of their technique is a deliberate fostering of the possibility for disorder, in order to give them a lazy way of deciding. In this case, arbcomm gave a clear signal right at the start that evidence limits could be ignored. It was downhill from there.

Of the arbs:

• none of them emerge with any credit.

William M. Connolley (talk) 08:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Did you notice the Hipocrite slapped a retired template up? Even though he said it wasn't due to the case, I think it was for the most part. I find it sad that a lot of long term editors just gave up after this case. Do you think Verbal will be back? I didn't think we lose so many long term editors like this. I am actually surprised in one way but in the other way I guess it's to be expected.  :( --CrohnieGal 18:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A discussion is now underway somewhere as to whether it's kosher to have a section such as the one below, discussing scholarly articles proposed by the Banned. It's so utterly bizarre, but to someone familiar with Misplaced Pages it would seem routine. Of course, to one of the most active (and unsanctioned) CC editors, my very act of posting on this page would be considered... I forget the words he used. Fraternizing with the unclean? ScottyBerg (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Could not see the discussion anywhere. FWIW I think any conversation which people bring here ought to be ok, as long as it stays here and does not get directly cited as part of an argument anywhere else. Ought, because I haven't got time to read the exact ruling but practically speaking it is much better for everyone if any such conversations stay here and visible rather than disappear on to email. Isn't there something about a prophet living in a tree whom people travelled to consult which even fits with one of the pictures....--BozMo talk 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#What_does_topic_banned_mean.3F ScottyBerg (talk) 20:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Some valid concerns are being raised in that discussion, but valid only in the Misplaced Pages sense. Outside of Misplaced Pages, I'd think that trying to prevent scientists from listing sources would be viewed with amazement. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with most everything you said in your analysis apart from the juicy gossip that I cannot directly verify. One comment, though: it's been perennially easy to be hard on arbcom; in fact, it won't take too much digging in my history to see my take on them. It seems to me now that they're basically doing exactly what the committee was designed to do when it was first set-up. Misplaced Pages and arbcom are both intentionally dysfunctional because the only way the content could have been created and given its high Google-ranks in the first place was to open it to the peanut-gallery that is the internet. What we have entrenched now is a culture that values inane process over efficiency, brute force over nuance, and immature niceties over intellectual heft. Sounds like any other internet microcosm to me. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's unquestionable that the process was far more opaque than it should have been, and took too long. I think that everyone involved except the arbs would agree with that. Email deliberations have their place, but there was far too little communication with the parties. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It's been that way in every arbitration case since 2005 as far as I can tell. Additionally, with every arbcom election, there are candidates who get elected who promise to change the system, and they all end up either resigning or changing their minds. The opacity was intentional and has always been a part of Misplaced Pages as far as I can tell. Obviously, there are scenarios where private communications are needed, but for whatever reason arbcom tends to function primarily on this level to their own detriment.

I think the model of the US Supreme Court is much better. Let disputants make statements and enter evidence. Then let arbcom ask questions. Then shut everything down. Arbcom comes back with a singular ruling and opposing minority opinions with signatures.

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That, actually, would be my favored model because it would tend to promote coherent decisions and better expressed dissent. Odds of being able to reform ArbCom to work this way: internal (ArbCom) support: 25%, external (community) support: 0.01%. If lucky. — Coren  00:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

That seems like it might work, actually. Anybody know what the procedure is to have it implemented? Maybe an RFC to gauge support,. and the closing consensus is the community's recommendation to the Committee? The Wordsmith 03:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom does not answer to the community, only to Jimbo. So, one has to ask Jimbo if he would be willing to consider community proposals to reform the ArbCom system. Count Iblis (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that having arbcomm ask questions would be the correct way to work. I disagree that people would disagree. Furthermore, I don't think arbcomm's way of working is anywhere set in stone - it is just How They Do Stuff. The could do it differently for the next case, if they chose to. Coren blaming-the-community-in-advance for arbcomm's failure to reform itself is a Poor Show William M. Connolley (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

This edit by H is good: both for the identification of the same flaw in the system as discussed above; and for the note about dirty backroom dealing William M. Connolley (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Late thought: arbcomm cases, when raised, should be complete. So no evidence should be considered that concerns behaviour after the case is accepted William M. Connolley (talk) 19:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

WMC...well, what can I say...if the evidence is cherry picked, then there is plenty out there to show our intolerance of non-science. Like you, I have a history of being less than cordial to those here to promote unscientific information...however, I do not believe I have ever, nor have you ever, done this because we see Misplaced Pages as a place to promote a POV, but rather as a place to try and build a reliable fact based source for information. I'm not an expert on CC, but am very well read on it and am active in keeping myself up to date on the latest....like this. I strongly disagree with the comment that LessHeard vanU made here but primarily his comment that..." disregarding the evidence compiled that this is your preferred modus operandi in trying to promote your vision of what is appropriate (and what is not) to be included in the subject area - is the reason why I believe this case to be inadequate in dealing with a concerted campaign to deny a wide ranging examination of the subject of Climate Change, including and especially the skeptic or denialist viewpoint." I see little room that should be made regarding the skeptical viewpoint...it isn't backed up by the preponderance of evidence, nor is it anything more than cherry picking the inconsistancies that can be found in dealing with a complex variable science such as climate change...there is one absolute truth in AGW and that is that it is happening...the path it is taking as it gets worse is naturally going to have some inconsistancies. You know this and so do I, but those that want to convince others that AGW is being oversold, is inaccurate or is a "lie" are using these inconsistancies to undermine the underlying truth. I see no reason to allow article space to be an "experiment" in examining the skeptical viewpoint except in articles devoted to that purpose. I don't know if I can offer a road back for you at this point...if others truly feel that the skeptical viewpoint should get better examination within the article space, then it would seem that CC subject matter on this website is doomed to becoming infested with this unreasonable doubt. No amount of civility or efforts to show assume good faith "improvements" (laughable for me to assume good faith of those trying to undermine the known evidence) on your part will override a desire by others to see more of the skeptical examination, and their failure to understand your ridigity in trying to keep these nonscientific viewpoints minimized is exasperating to me.--MONGO 20:12, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Know what you mean guv. But to be fair, other than generally contributing to poisoning the case I don't think LHVU's nonsense afflicted the arbs much. Certainly it didn't make it into the FoF or remedies (did it?) and I don't see any implication at all in the decision that any of the content was slanted (perhaps the BLP bit?) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I simply disagree with LHVU's take on the matter, and wondered if aside from the general sanctions, if many feel that the skeptical view isn't getting enough "weight" in article space...that was my take on his position, though like you said, this doesn't seem to be part of the findings or visible basis for the sanctions but that could possibly be because arbcom doesn't (openly) settle content disputes.--MONGO 17:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Based on the discussion that has arisen subsequent to the decision, concerning whether the topic ban covers user page posts, I sense a kind of huffy attitude and desire to separate WMC from these articles, even in areas not explicitly covered by the decision or even discussed during the case. There seems to be a desire to restore a semblance of harmony whatever the cost. Somebody said on this page a day or so ago that this is consistent with a website that is based on broad Internet participation. I'm not precisely quoting but that's the gist. The Internet does have a larger than normal proportion of people who advocate nontraditional POVs, and their needs must be served. That's the message I hear in this decision. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I sense a certain degree of fear. Some people have so little confidence in wikipedia that even distant comment by me makes them tremble (Fred Bauder springs to mind). If they are too scared of seeing what is on this page, they can unwatch William M. Connolley (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The user page comment thread was pretty unanimous that such posts are definitely not kosher, so I suspect that if they don't like what they see on this page they'll do more than unwatch. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

You clearly have a differenet definition on unanimous to me. In particular, SA provided evidence to the contrary. Like I say, anyone who doesn't want to read what is written here can unwatch William M. Connolley (talk) 18:05, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

My impression is that the people who are known for supporting a hard line attitude to these sorts of issues, have been the most vocal in that discussion there. They overplayed their hand last time (when the issue was inserting comments in postings made here), so I don't think they would want to start another conflict on a non-issue, leading to a big brawl at AE, weakening the whole enforcement regime. Count Iblis (talk) 18:35, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, it appeared to me that the sentiment was against using the talk pages. Not unanimous, certainly. I was against it, for instance, for what it was worth, which wasn't much. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:39, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I'll give another comment on that thread. I think they are missing something when they look at the issue raised by Lar in a very narrow way. In the way they are framing it, their point makes sense. In general, you don't want talk pages to be used by topic banned editors to continue being engaged in the topic they were topic banned from. And this issue has been a problem in other ArbCom cases. But then, this particular case is different for a few reasons, which have nothing to do with William trying to get around the topic ban. Count Iblis (talk) 19:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. For info only, out of politeness as is normal when editors are discussed on noticeboards. In my own view, you'd be best advised to ignore it and not join in the discussion. At least until there are significant further developments, but then what do I know. . . dave souza, talk 21:48, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

WMC, please don't play this game. It will not lead to a result you could qualify as positive, for anyone involved. You disagree with the ruling; that has been made abundantly clear here and everywhere else you have chosen to expound on your disapproval. Nevertheless, you need to abide by it, and such literal toeing of the line reflects poorly on yourself and will lead to escalation. — Coren  23:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why you're paying any attention to JAJ. If people don't want to read this page, they don't have to. And, as SA points out, the precedent is in the other direction: this is entirely permissible. Are you really so frightened? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Because you are a valuable contributor, even if you did get too personally involved in a conflict. Right now, you're doing you damned best to burn bridges and that is something you are most likely to regret in the end. — Coren  11:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It is nice to see that acknowledged, even if far too late.

As for the bridges, I disagree. In fact I don't even know what you mean by it William M. Connolley (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

More constructively, why not give a hand in and around ZFC? The whole mess of set theory articles on Misplaced Pages is poorly sourced and opaque to all but someone with a strong maths background. You certainly have both experience and talent at writing that would be put to good use over there — and allow you to disengage from the climate mess. — Coren  23:41, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. But if you want that as a favour, you need to be rather less heavy about other matters William M. Connolley (talk) 09:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I wish you could take a step back and realize that if favor this is, it would be entirely to your benefit. You're no longer a scientist when you write about CC on Misplaced Pages, Dr. Connolley, you are a participant. That's as unhealthy for you as it is disruptive to Misplaced Pages; and we are hoping a brief vacation entirely away from the topic will allow you to disengage enough to help return with objectivity. Your idea of User:WMC that does not share your watchlist was excellent — avail yourself of it. — Coren  11:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

You're no longer a scientist when you write about CC on Misplaced Pages, Dr. Connolley, you are a participant - you're wrong. Firstly, I'm no longer a scientist at all - I'm a software engineer. But no, I'm not a "participant" now any more than I was 2, 3 or 7 years ago. Unless you have some novel definition I don't know about William M. Connolley (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Taking a purely pragmatic point of view, one has to consider maintaining CC articles on a daily basis that are not watched by many people. The main global warming page is watched by 1500 people, but there are a lot of other pages that have a handful of watchers, many of whom don't edit Misplaced Pages frequently. Mostly, these are pages on technical aspects of climate science. In contrast, the polemic pages tend to have a large number of watchers.

William seems to have all these CC pages on his watchlist and if we don't want him to communicate obvious problems (like subtle POV pushing in the two cases reported by William above), then other editors have to watchlist these pages and check out every edit on a daily basis. This would require all these pages to be listed somewhere so that people like me can monitor them.

Now, when I just checked out the latest problem reported by William, I also tried to find if there already is some coordinated effort to maintain the articles. What I found was that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Environment/Climate change task force exists for this purpose, but that this is inactive (also quite a few of the listed members seem to have a problematic background, it seems). The lists of articles that I saw there are not up to date, e.g. I didn't find the article William pointed to listed there. Count Iblis (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The Cl Ch task force never had any credibility, for any number of reasons, some of which you allude to. To revive it you'd need a purpose for it. For quite a long time t:GW was the informal Cl Ch noticeboard William M. Connolley (talk) 20:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

After all the discussion, which you are well aware of, you continue to try and find ways to sneak around the edges of your topic ban. This will not be tolerated from you or any of the other banned editors. Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I see the result for User:Cla68 was to turn a blind eye. Interesting. By the way, whose sockpuppet is User:EngineerFromVega? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Why now and not say 10 days ago for this? That's when the first comment was made in the section so again, why now? --CrohnieGal 17:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Not the admin, but the block came 15 minutes after the complaint at WP:AE. Right or wrong, the timeline is fairly clear.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• You're telling me that this block came 15 min. after the complaint? Since when is 15 minutes enough time to discuss whether an editor should be blocked, never mind just blocking said editor? Editors are located around the world in different time zones as you know so I don't understand the rush here. Was this considered an emergency to protect the project? I sure hope not. I was too late to make a comment at AE. The decision was already made to block, this is wrong. Maybe WMC deservers a block, that's not what I'm complaining about. What my problems is, is 15 minutes with a complaint then boom a 2 week block. Doesn't anyone else have a problem with this? --CrohnieGal 17:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Actually the arbcomm case encouraged decisiveness, and one of the arbs said something to that effect in response to Tony's recent request. The alternative - agonise over it for two weeks and then still block - is probably not an improvement. Guettarda (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

No indication of what I have been blocked for. Nor indeed is "Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions" justified by the arbcomm result or policy William M. Connolley (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Decline reason:

This is an arbitration enforcement block. It can only be appealed as described at WP:AEBLOCK.  Sandstein  20:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Oh, and can someone please point Beeblebrox at User:William_M._Connolley/For_me/The_naming_of_cats William M. Connolley (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

You miss the point. This block was not imposed pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy. The arbcomm remedy does not include edits to my user talk page. Also, following recent intereactions with you, you cannot possibly be regarded as an impartial admin

Decline reason:

While I understand that's your opinion, this block should be reviewed using the AE process, so don't use {{unblock}}, but instead use {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. PhilKnight (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Well, thanks for the info. Wiki seems to have gone mad, or at least a portion of it has. At least a few remain sane William M. Connolley (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you are finished writing out your appeal, I can move it to the AE page for you. However, I would suggest writing something a bit more substantive, perhaps a paragraph stating that you don't think it was violation of the ban, and that if the Request for Clarification rules that that sort of thing is not allowed, you will abide by it? I think that would give you a greater chance of a successful appeal. The Wordsmith 21:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I believe I've covered the sustance. Could you also get Beeblebrox to strike the "Mr" insult, unless he was doing it deliberately? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I will move it over now. As far as Beeblebrox, I doubt he intended it as an insult. Modern conventions indicate that males should generally be called Mr, and so I doubt he even considered it. I will ask him, though, if he will change it. The Wordsmith 21:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks (it shouldn't be necessary for you to do so. B ought to have read what I've written above). Also, there is a typo in my appeal: is the onehat -> 'is the one that'. Could you correct that? Also, the template (presumably in an effort to rub salt into wounds) says that the appeal will be dismissed unless I notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then jump through some more hoops. Could you possibly jump throuygh the hoops for me? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I have jumped through the appropriate hoops on your behalf, and I made a request on Beeblebrox's talkpage that he address you in your preferred manner. I'm going to review the evidence presented again, and then I will form an opinion regarding the appeal. At this point, i'm not sure what course of action I will suggest. If you wish to make any further statements for your appeals, make them here and I will transfer them over. The Wordsmith 22:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks William M. Connolley (talk)

Agreed, arbcom do everything they can get away with away from scrutiny. It is very difficult to challenge arbcom on this because complete cooperation of all involved editors in any particular case is needed to force this to change. They tried to keep my case away from public eyes and wrapped it up with all arbs voting under some checkuser cloud even though I never requested or needed any secrecy. In fact secrecy worked against me as certain members of arbcom almost certainly realised when pushing their hasty agenda driven solutions. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Accepted practice is to discuss the topic on WR, then make the edits here. :-P Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I cannot comment about that on-wiki because that would involve me discussing the conduct of administrators in CC probation. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You mentioned "the CC probation"! That's an obvious attempt to prolong the dispute and deserves a lengthy block. We have to make you scum understand that business means business. (Sadly, I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not...) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Your joking Boris, don't know about the rest of them though. 2 weeks? I don't understand why looking at this talk page I don't see it. Did WMC, sorry WMC, did you talk about CC some place else? I'm confused because I don't see anything here recent to cause the block. Can someone clarify for me please? Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGal 13:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, see #Misc breakage, above. It struck me as a sensible solution, but people found it problematic and told him to stop. He posted a third one, which led to AE, which led to a block. Unreasonable? Sure. Putting process above improving the encyclopaedia? Sure. But given that he was told to stop, from a purely process perspective, it's it difficult point to argue. But honestly, I'm more inclined to see this as bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, rather than stupidity or maliciousness.

At the heart of this is a desire to "do something". It's what we say to politicians all the time. "Do something". Got a crime problem? Enforce tougher sentences! It doesn't matter if the solutions (a) fail to address the actual problem, and (b) result in draconian punishments for people guilty of relatively minor infractions (cf. war on drugs) - people want action, they want to see something being done. In Misplaced Pages, the people wanting action and the people capable of acting happen to overlap significantly. So it all gets more complicated.

Tougher laws don't actually solve crime problems, especially when they don't actually do anything to deal with the underlying problems. A tougher sanctions regime isn't going to solve the problem here - they're driven by a combination of real-world politics and bloggers taking specific aim at articles and editors here. People still seem to be operating under the mistaken idea that this is about personalities, that you can solve the problem by clamping down on the 'problem children'. That's not to say that there aren't problems between editors, conflicts that have made matters worse. But they're minor. Without the "external forcings", we wouldn't have a big problem here.

In one sense the problem is the solution. The arbcomm case created a flawed framework. But the arbcomm actually has no power of its own. The power actually lies with the community. A constant stream of 'test cases' makes matters worse. What has happened since the case closed is very unfortunate. Guettarda (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Note that in this case, the block doesn't prevent William from posting another CC article link, it only prevents William from editing other non CC articles. :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

True, but the next block could keep him from editing his talk page as well. I agree that what's happening is going to shift a lot of activity off-wiki, and things can get hairy. I tried to raise that issue in one of the discussions a few days ago, but without success. I think that we're definitely seeing process triumphing over content here. The choice was made, and content is going to suffer. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yep, it will force things off-wiki. May as well start now:

Sign here to join the secret mailing list.

1. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
2. --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
3. --17:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
4. William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
5. Count Iblis (talk) 17:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
6. --~~
7. Jimbo Wales (talk) Imaginary time, Modified Julian Date (UTC)

This is not a good idea. Remember the Eastern European Mailing List case, in which multiple people were banned because it was discovered they were using a mailing list. Cardamon (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but this is a secret mailing list. So no one knows it exists. It's safe to assume that these people are not part of that list. The fact that one does not receive messages from the list is proof that the list exists is the fact that you are not receiving messages from it. And every time you see vandalism reverted, you will have to ask yourself whether it was produced by some sort of a secret list. And, BTW, the issue with the EEML was not the existence of the list, but rather, the way it was used. Guettarda (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I assume that this is being done in jest (it is, isn't it?), but it definitely can be misconstrued. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but information on the list is only available via the list. As soon as you subscribe, you will get an email with full instructions. Please disable your spam filter, as we use steganography to make the more important announcements look like penis enlargement ads. In fact, you may already be subscribed... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I like your thinking. In fact I like it so much I stole it :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Only reasonable solution I see here is to elect Boris to the arbcomm. Guettarda (talk) 13:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

He's got my vote! --CrohnieGal 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

A run for arbcom certainly is an intriguing proposition. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If you'll accept, I know lots of us would vote for you. --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I went out this morning and it was cold. Then it got warmer. It appears to be getting colder right now. A couple of months ago it was warmer. I am not going to Antarctica this year so from my perspective it will be a warm winter. Oh someone is vandalising an article but I cannot tell you where. Never mind, nice sock spread the love :). Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Huh! --CrohnieGal 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have lost my mind. Pay no attention :) Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Polargeo 2, as a topic-banned party in the CC case you have just made a personal attack against yourself, who is a topic-banned editor in the CC case. Why do you insist on continuing these battles across multiple forums fora forii places, despite the clear intent of arbcom? See WP:NSA. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I feel that the link under "even in the face of self-abuse" needs changing William M. Connolley (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

To what, might I ask? you foul-minded pervert... Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I went to public school, I'll have you know, and that kind of joke is obligatory William M. Connolley (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I was rather surprised that the link didn't go there... Guettarda (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

SBHB, I'm deeply worried. From an ArbCom candidate I would expect to see more than just a singe WP:STUPIDABBREV. If I were uninvolved, I'd strongly consider blocking you for insufficient zeal in enforcing Misplaced Pages best practices! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

! William M. Connolley (talk) 18:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry, I think we all have! :) --CrohnieGal 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Mailing lists are so last century. What about a private wiki? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I confess to being startled at the suggestion that you should either ignore blatant bad edits, or else email someone else to fix them. I really can't see what the latter achieves at all. Surely this is "participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles", just harder to prove? Although perhaps I shouldn't give people ideas. Anyway, for what it's worth, I fail to see what a 2 week ban achieves that couldn't be achieved by saying "don't do that", especially when the case was not clear-cut. "Unncessarily draconian" springs to mind. pour encourager les autres? Or décourager, in this case. --Merlinme (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Malice is the word you're looking for William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

you should . . . ignore blatant bad edits: that's the definition of "topic ban," and the culmination of months of deliberations. Removal of the most qualified editor from the CC articles and an editorial in the Wall Street Journal praising arbcom for having done so. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought Boris's post on NYB's talk page was particularly good. That showed up that Stephan as a bit of a whinger William M. Connolley (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)