Talk:Asmahan: Difference between revisions

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	== some issues ==

	Hey cactus, I have added some texts, but there are problems with sources nr 7, there is some kind of error.

	Also there are two things I would like to ad, they both resemble the source very much and I cant figure out how to rewrite them any better so I wanted to check with you first and maybe you can come with your own suggestion. My example: "The dependence on the Egyptian elite forced Asmahan and other singers to sing praising songs for the king and of national themes."

	Source: Asmahans Secrets p 13: quote ''"she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes."''

	my example "She always mentioned her father and Sultan al-Atrash to clarify her ancestry—once saying to a friend: "Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash."

	Source: Asmahans Secrets p 37: ''"Later in her life, Asmahan always refereed to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin (although she was actually a third cousin twice removed) to the Amir al-Atrash (Hassan) and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash""''

	Is this ok? --] (]) 13:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

	:I suggest you work on rebuilding the early life section first. After that is complete, then move forward to the next section, proceeding in a linear fashion. The reference error is caused by a broken link. I changed them to Harv style. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 14:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
	::I think I'm done with the early life section. Can you answer at my suggestions? --] (]) 18:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

	:::The first passage is plagiarism. It is a close construct of the original sentence and idea. More problematic, the word "forced" alters the meaning and creates a negative connotation that is not in the original source. Most importantly, you should stop picking random sentences from a source, altering their structure and adding them to the text. Why do you want to include that single sentence? It was part of an entire chapter explaining the author's idea. You should to read the entire chapter, understand what the source is saying, and then summarize it in one or two sentences using your own words. It s best to ask yourself, "what was the author's conclusion?", and that write that.

	:::I am surprised that the early life is done already. I recall there was a lot about the immigration to Egypt and the family's early life there. Isn't the early life incomplete without that? <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 19:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
	::::I saw you deleted the page Diaa had created, here is something else. I don't know if this is the same page or something else and you maybe missed it http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Asmahan/temp

	::::That sentence about her "being required" to sing fits in the "Asmahan and her debut" section about her singing. You said that the author's idea in that chapter was awkward pov and did not belong in an encyclopedia so why should I summarize it? But she "being required" to sing is a fact, and fits in anywhere about her signing, so that's why I would like to ad it. Do you have any rewritten suggestions for it?

	::::I have already added that they emigrated to Palestine and then to Egypt. Something should indeed be added about they're early life there but I did not ad that text from the beginning and I am not able to rewrite texts in a good way. (I am not a native speaker of english) --] (]) 17:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

	:::::The problem with emphasizing only a single sentence is that it misses the overall point the author was making in the chapter. The way I understand it the point of the entire chapter entitled "Syrian or Egyptian?" is that Asmahan was proud of her Syrian heritage, but it was the freedom of being Egyptian which allowed her to flourish as a singer and actress. Of course, I have only read a few chapters and am not an well-versed on her life. I am moving this entire conversation to ] so that more knowledgeable editors can help you. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 19:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

	== Understand the source ==

	The following sentence is out-of-context and a misunderstanding of the source material:

			== Am I acceptable as an honest broker? ==
	:''To get the support from Egypts highest class, Asmahan was obligated to sing tribute songs about Egypt and the rulers of Egypt'' (p 13 Zuhur 2000 )

			Supreme Deliciousness has asked me to have a look at some of the issues raised above. I'm aware that Nefer Tweety has had issues with the fact that I was contacted by SD and in turn contacted Nishidani. This isn't a topic area of which I am previously aware. (In fact I had assumed that the subject was a place until today.) Having not looked at the details of the dispute, I don't know whether I will agree with SD, NF or neither of you. I am willing to look at things as an honest broker. But, I want to make sure that NF will accept anything I say as a good faith comment. If everything I say that (s)he doesn't like is going to be put down as my being a meatpuppet of SD, then I can live without the aggravation. Of course, the powers that be may take their own view of any such assumption of bad faith.--] (]) 17:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
	It appears on page 13 of Zuhur's book. That is the introduction in which Zuhur is making generalized statements about the author's own difficulties in trying to assess the life of Asmahan. It is not the author's intent to describe Asmahan but rather a generalized statement about Egyptian culture. The biography of Asmahan doesn't actually begin until Chapter 1 on page 24. The inclusion of that sentence makes as much sense as including the following sentence which also appears in Zuhur's introduction:
			:Peter, I have already asked the drafter of the arbitration case Wizardman, and he told me that I am allowed to invite a neutral editor to take a look at points of corrections I have presented at the talkpage. Another arb Shell Kinney has said the same thing , and a third arb, Faysal, has said the same thing here above, that other experienced editors can review the issues, and also to stop accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. Those accusations are also violations of the cases . You know that you are a honest and neutral editor and thats all that matters. --] (]) 01:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

			:Peter, thank you for your message on my talk page. SD has for the last 9 months made every effort to be the sole editor of Asmahan and other pages in the Asmahan arbitration case. Other editors are either banned from contributing or are completely disgusted by SD's ways that they are staying away for the time being. You cannot achieve consensus under these circumstances. Any input from you on behalf of SD will be one-sided and far from agreement and is therefore not neutral and will reflect only SD's input and will be subject a lot of more disputes. While you may be an unbiased editor, you cannot be a neutral broker while SD has harassed all other opinion to the point where they are no longer contributing. Your innocent "mediation" will be only a powder keg waiting to explode. I, personally, have no time for more endless arguments on the talk pages, however, I will revert any statements that have not received consensus with all parties prior to the arbitration.SD is subject to a topic ban specifically related to Asmahan due to his extremely disruptive behavior, while I am not under any restriction. While I am busy to be a regular contributor, I cannot allow SD's continued pushing of a Syrian agenda. -- ] (]) 07:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
	:''Biographies of Asmahan suggest she was happier being an Egyptian than a Syrian.'' p. 19 Zuhur 2000
			::Several of the points of corrections I presented at the talkpage there has already been repeated mediation and consensus over, and the consensus was edit warred away. AC has also already replied to the points at the talkpage so his position is clear: --] (]) 22:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

			== Birth date ==
	Please read and understand the entire book before summarizing the source. Simply ] sentences is inappropriate. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 11:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

			I've had a look through the available references on the page and there are some conflicting pieces of information. The following references all show different birth dates:
	:Its a factual statement that was made on page 13, the rest of that section is zuhurs own opinions and not facts. : quote: "she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes." The second sentence you mention is the author Zuhurs own interpretation of texts and can not be compared with the fact that she was "required to sing songs of praise" --] (]) 17:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
			* 1912-11-25: http://www.alquds.co.uk/index.asp?fname=2008\05\05-23\21m25.htm
			* 1912-??-??: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q&f=false
			* 1917-11-23: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false
			* 1918-10-25: http://xn--mgbq6dev.com/paper.php?source=akbar&mlf=interpage&sid=64405

			Does anyone have any more information about this? It seems as though we don't actually know her birth date. – ] (]) 19:13, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
	::Understand that the entire book is an opinion. It has the author's POV as do all biographies. It is a ] -- an analysis and interpretation by the author. Summarizing that analysis requires understanding the entire context -- that is fair to the author as well as the subject -- and, unfortunately, requires more work than simply cherry-picking single sentences, paraphrasing them and sliding them into a article. Because the principles of ] and ] work hand-in-hand, not all facts are equal. The sentence you cite is a throw-away line in the introduction. Do panegyrics play an important role in her career? If so, then the author will certainly have expanded on this in greater depth in the actual biography. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 12:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
	:::How is "They were required" a POV from the author? You want it removed?--] (]) 13:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

			:Printed sources including some written by her family members and Syrian official sources put the date at 1918-10-25. Which makes sense because she was born on the journey back from Turkey after her father fled to Syria, following the fall of Damascus to the Allies on 30-9-1918.
	::::At the moment, it seems to pop out to me as a generalized negative bias towards an old Egyptian custom without imparting anything significant about Asmahan. So I'm trying to get a grip on how the idea of panegyrics was important specifically for her. It isn't as if we are talking about the singers and actors who collaborated with the nationalism instituted by Nasser. I would think that Farouk's 1930s push for preservation of traditional Arab music and the westernization of Egyptian music in 1930s would be of far more significant impact on her career than the ancient institution of panegyrics. It seems Asmahan's dislike of singing to public audiences and her willingness only to accept payment for singing on film were much greater factors as well. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 13:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

			:This only underlines what I have said before: ''take everything written about Asmahan with a grain of salt.'' Especially if the source is the Egyptian tabloids, Muhammad at-tabe'i, or is drawing its information form them. There's a severe lack of reliable sources on her life. -- ] ★ ] 14:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

			::Awesome; thank you for the elaboration. Could you provide the reference information for two of those authoritative sources you just mentioned so that we can use them in the article? – ] (]) 04:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
			:::Well, I have one I could readily find:
			:::*Majed al-Atrash, "أسمهان، أميرة الطرب والسيف والكرم" (English: "Asmahan, The Princess of Tarab, Sword and Generosity"). Al-'Adiyat Magazine, issue: summer 2005. p 75 (in Arabic).
			:::I still have some other magazines but these need to be dug out. Most of the rest are news and stories in the Syrian official newspapers, some of them about the new museum. I'm sure most of these can be found on the newspapers' website, especially Al-Thawra newspaper. All of them put the date at 1918. is one story I kept on record.
			:::There was also a big fuss in the media about the factual errors of the "Asmahan" series, one of them was the date of birth which the series put at 1917. So maybe you can find something about this in various arabic publications.
			:::Unfortunately I quit working on this article or keeping record of sources long ago, when it turned into a battle zone. I hope you find these helpful, and I'll keep digging for the others. Best regards. -- ] ★ ] 20:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

			== overt plagiarism, misunderstanding of sources, is Misplaced Pages really just a form of plagiarism? ==

			I am the author of Asmahan: Woman, War and Song (which is referred to here and there in the content and editing commentary under the correct and wrong titles) I collected materials on Asmahan for about 15 years, interviewed living family members,
	I do not know why he removed Beirut and Palestine, they were both referenced. Relocated or returned - either way -- because the reader will already understand that she lived there as a child. The "required to sing" was still being discussed, but as you know, I found it fairly meaningless anyway. And if you are talking about the "princely family" paragraph, not only is that meaningless to the biography, it appears to be an extreme fringe viewpoint. The Al-Taba'i book (which was written in 1965, only republished in 2009) was mostly discredited by Zuhur. Any other source lists Al-Atrash as Amir, Prince, Druze leader, etc. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 20:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
			reviewed official files including previously closed UK and French documents, reviewed her musical contribution, etc. I am a scholar. I understand that the standards I used are NOT followed by those who are writing and editing Misplaced Pages, i.e. I cite everything and where it may appear to you to be "opinion," I have carefully reviewed supporting documentation. Thus when one of your writers draws straight from my book, w/o citation as to Asmahan's missing her career in Egypt - this is actually a true statement based on her personal correspondance which the Wiki writer has not read, but I have. I'm posting because I see multiple violations of copyright laws. Moreover, how can the editors rule on "disputes" or venture opinions as to
			facts they don't know (and the posters clearly don't know? The issue about Asmahan's citizenship is just one point. She was born a citizen of the Ottoman empire in the province of Syria (the varying dates of birth are offered because the journalist, Muhammad al-Taba'i claimed that she had falsified her passport; and here I took into account what we know about her family, her siblings, events of the period). She was not a "naturalized" Egyptian in the same way that one can be naturalized in the U.S.A. or get a work permit in the UK. For some reason, she did not acquire Egyptian citizenship in 1927, when it would have been possible for her to do so, but her brother did. This does not make her an Egyptian, but rather an Arab Druze of shami (Levantine) origins who lived in Egypt. She "sang patriotic songs" because one was included in the score of the film she starred in!
			Other actors and actresses did likewise. Here, there isn't any evidence to suggest how she felt about that ... Sherifa Zuhur```` <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:25, 28 November 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			I attempted to edit the article today. I am not familiar with Misplaced Pages's process, but I received a message saying you removed everything
	:I removed Beirut and Palestine because 'Alia did not "move to" them. They were merely stops on her way to Egypt. She passed through Haifa to board the train. These were not immigrations, so how are they of any significance? Moreover, my understanding of multiple sources is that Asmahan did not live in Syria as a child, but only went there for visits. I think that the comment about the Atrashes not being a princely family is extremely important and corrects a lot of misconceptions. Most people think that they were. Al-Taba'i affirms that they were not, and their "Ameer" title was a manipulation of the word "Le Maire". I give much more weight to Al-Taba'i's biography than Zuhur's. He was Asmahan's best friend and one-time fiance. She relied on him on an almost daily basis and in her most difficult times. He wrote from first hand account. I have read his book and I find it factual and very credible, unlike Zuhur's which is mostly POV. On the contrary . --] (]) 09:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			I wrote as it is unverified, even though I have been working on the details of Asmahan's life for 20 years, and am the author of the book that the other
	::You removed them without asking at the talkpage, and its not true what you say. On page 38 in Asmahans secrets you can clearly see that she moved to Beirut and the only reason she left Lebanon was because she found out the french was gonna arrest her to force a ceasefires in Jabal al Druze. You also removed that she was "required to sing" without an agreement reached at the talkpage for its removal. The part you added about "Asmahan's Atrash family was not princely" has nothing to do with the early life section and has been called "meaningless to the biography, it appears to be an extreme fringe viewpoint." by admin cactus.--] (]) 11:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			writers and written sources keep citing. Then when I logged in, I saw some edits appeared to "take" and some didn't. Some I made because the grammar and language is unclear, but there were also claims made that I know to be false and misunderstandings.
	:Has Cactus read al-Taba'i's book to be able to make a judgment on this comment? It is also his own opinion. I find it extremely important in telling who Asmahan really was; not a real princess. It may be out of place now, but it will moved later to a more fitting one. Again, 'Alia's brief stop in Beirut and Palestine was not an immigration and has nothing to do with the Immigration to Egypt section. --] (]) 12:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			For example, Alia al-Mundhir and her three children chose to flee the Jabal (Druze, now Jabal Arab). The children had no voice in the matter.
	::::It has nothing to do with early life so it shouldn't have been added there from the beginning. And you have two people saying it shouldnt be in the article at all. Nothing in the sources say that it was a "stop" on her way to Egypt, she moved to Lebanon and because the french was looking for her she left Lebanon, if you didn't like it you could have asked at the talkpage before you deleted it and if you felt it had nothing to do with immigration to Egypt it could have been moved to the early life section. You have not answered to why you deleted that she was "required to sing". --] (]) 12:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			An earlier reference was to the three children coming from Dmarji; however, there was another child alive at that time.
	:::::The "required to sing...." statement was not only out of place and meaningless, but also a copright violation of the same standing as all those deleted by Cactus. It was a paraphrasing of the original source and you know that. --] (]) 13:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			Asmahan's "mentors" is not really the right word to describe the composers of her songs. By the time, her career blossomed, Hosni was out of the picture. Qasabji and Ahmad were great composers who sought singers to make their work famous. Qasabji was not Asmahan's mentor, but he admired her, and he lost work with Umm Kulthum because of his association with Asmahan.
	::::::If you felt it was out of place or meaningless you could have taken it to the talkpage instead of deleting it, I do not feel it was out of place or meaningless so until an agreement would have been reached about it you shouldn't have deleted it. And until Cactus says its a copyright violation , its shouldn't be deleted on that basis. You could have taken it up at the talkpage. And now when you have brought back the "When Asmahan was asked to sing of cultural patriotism and love, she sang of Egypt." it fits perfect after to explain it. --] (]) 13:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			The description of Asmahan's voice was written in poor English, but also compared her to singers who were not a part of her musical era or tradition (Fairuz and Sabah) and claim she used a "western technique" with no proof offered. it was the composers who chose to include coloratura sections in their songs, and she had the technique to execute these, but it would be a mistake to identify her with the Western-sounding section of Ya Tuyur exclusively. Singing in lawn tarab is quite hard to describe, but also, what a truly "Arab sound" was in 1939 or 1940 wasn't the same as it was in 1929, or in 1953; some of the nasality became less admired, the Turkish-style ornamentation of Asmahan's predecessors went out of style. etc. I could go on and on about why I edited as I did, too bad if you removed it, Sherifa Zuhur] (]) 01:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	:::Are you now seriously trying to impeach the major ] of the article, the source you have used for most of your references, the source which was good enough for you to copy passages from? The controversy of Zuhur which you cite has nothing to do with her published work. Just a quick search , , reveals Zuhur is well-published and well-cited in academic journals. As expected, "Muḥammad Tābiʻī" has no academic scholarship. Worse, as you say, he is a close friend, which makes him a ]. Please read ]. This requires he be treated as a source of questionable reliability.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:::The sentence about the Palestine, Beirut, Egypt sentence doesn't concern me. You could have changed "moved to" to "traveled to" and that would have been a reasonable compromise, but I agree that it does seem like a minor point to me. The relocated/returned issue was decided long ago when Al Ameer son said you should use "moved to" instead of either word. Is the title of Mayor found in any source other the Taba'i. If not, it is outweighed from the multitude of sources which mention otherwise. The word "falsely" is an OR POV -- either the people called her "Princess of the Mountain" or they didn't. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 12:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

			I have just modified {{plural:3\|one external link\|3 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	::::No, I am not impeaching Zuhur's book. I have used it. I am responding to your attempts to impeach al-Taba'i's book on the basis of Zuhur's opinion. You have stated that Zuhur discredited him, when she is no position to do so. The controversy over Zuhur seems to have to do with academic integrity. On of th elinks you posted in reference to her work goes nowhere. On the contrary, I believe al-Taba'i's first-hand account of the events, and he is a credible, published journalist and author. The google search that you made shows at least 15 different books that he has authored and published. I do not know about his academic scholarship, especially in the English language, but he was the Editor-in-Chief of an important Egyptian newspaper for a long time; he was dubbed the Prince of Egyptian Journalism. Zuhur herself relied heavily on al-Taba'i's book in writing her own, as did other biographers of Asmahan, including Mahmoud Salah, the author of . --] (]) 13:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090725070959/http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/933/ee2.htm to http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/933/ee2.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090809041701/http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/943/ee1.htm to http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/943/ee1.htm
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120507092858/http://asmahan.com:80/ to http://www.asmahan.com/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx\|Sourcecheck}}).
	:::::Of course Zuhur used Taba'i -- she provides the necessary secondary source interpretation. That is the function of scholarly analysis. Once again, you have already stated that Taba'i is a primary source -- so it cannot be considered reliable for any controversial comments. As ]: ''Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.'' ] ''Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties''. Zuhur is the most recent and reliable secondary source. Please remove the "falsely" wording as well as your latest addition addition in which Taba'i calls Asmahan a liar. This is unsuitable as currently sourced and possibly ]. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 13:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false}}
	::::::I had removed "falsely" before you asked because it was my interpretaion. Please go ahead and modify the other statement as you see fit. however, it is properly sourced in al-Taba'i's book. Al-Taba'i calls her a liar in countless places in the book; he refers to it as a psychological illness, though he was her best friend. He does not mean it in a deragotory fashion. Chapter 2 of the book is labelled "The Psychological Complexes That Controlled Her Life". It is a matter that cannot be ignored in a biography on Asmahan. --] (]) 14:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 22:45, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
	::::::: If it is a prominent concept in a biography of Asmahan, than I would suggest you address it however Zuhur or other reliable secondary source address it. If it is only Al-Taba'i's belief, than it can't be given much weight. Regardless of how he means it, it is derogatory and accusations like that require only the best reliable sources. As I have already suggested to SD, you should request a ] or ] as well as a mediator who understands Arabic. I have neither the time nor the desire (nor any Arabic skill) to expend on mediating this dispute further. <span style="font-family: tahoma;"> — ] ]</span> 14:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

	== ~~Correcting~~ ~~sections~~ ==		== External links modified ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	I have in edit corrected the sections of the article. The natural development of previous mediations was a "career" section and in that section a subsection of "Egypt's influence", and "immigration to Egypt" was a subsection of "early life", as can be seen . Texts about her career that has nothing to do with any influence connected to Egypt, should be in its right place.--] (]) 11:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

			I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	== Nefer Tweety re adding copyrighted material ==
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100912032423/http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/fareed_al_atrach.htm to http://www.classicalarabicmusic.com/fareed_al_atrach.htm
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://asmahan.com/

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	I had made a copyright violation and a copyright admin removed the copyrighted material , the exact copy righted text has been re added by Nefer tweety , personal life, section: --] (]) 13:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Disruptive editing by Nefer Tweety ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 17:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
	Nefer Tweety reverted the entire article back 4 months to Arab Cowboys edit, not caring about edits made by 11 people --] (]) 14:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

			== Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion ==
	] is presently under for edit warring and other violations specifically related to ] and other articles. On 20 December, Supreme Deliciousness returned to his old ways of making into ] to promote his POV and Syrian agenda while claiming copyright violation about any text does not suit his agenda. There's no more copyright violation, the article had been rebuilt by Arab Cowboy without any copyright violations while Cactus Writer was closely watching. Supreme Deliciousness's probation must be enforced as well as the probation on ] and he had better leave this article alone. I am dedicating my time on Misplaced Pages to protecting Egypt related articles from Supreme Deliciousness's vandalism. ] (]) 11:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
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Am I acceptable as an honest broker?

Supreme Deliciousness has asked me to have a look at some of the issues raised above. I'm aware that Nefer Tweety has had issues with the fact that I was contacted by SD and in turn contacted Nishidani. This isn't a topic area of which I am previously aware. (In fact I had assumed that the subject was a place until today.) Having not looked at the details of the dispute, I don't know whether I will agree with SD, NF or neither of you. I am willing to look at things as an honest broker. But, I want to make sure that NF will accept anything I say as a good faith comment. If everything I say that (s)he doesn't like is going to be put down as my being a meatpuppet of SD, then I can live without the aggravation. Of course, the powers that be may take their own view of any such assumption of bad faith.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Peter, I have already asked the drafter of the arbitration case Wizardman, and he told me that I am allowed to invite a neutral editor to take a look at points of corrections I have presented at the talkpage. Another arb Shell Kinney has said the same thing , and a third arb, Faysal, has said the same thing here above, that other experienced editors can review the issues, and also to stop accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. Those accusations are also violations of the cases decorum. You know that you are a honest and neutral editor and thats all that matters. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Peter, thank you for your message on my talk page. SD has for the last 9 months made every effort to be the sole editor of Asmahan and other pages in the Asmahan arbitration case. Other editors are either banned from contributing or are completely disgusted by SD's ways that they are staying away for the time being. You cannot achieve consensus under these circumstances. Any input from you on behalf of SD will be one-sided and far from agreement and is therefore not neutral and will reflect only SD's input and will be subject a lot of more disputes. While you may be an unbiased editor, you cannot be a neutral broker while SD has harassed all other opinion to the point where they are no longer contributing. Your innocent "mediation" will be only a powder keg waiting to explode. I, personally, have no time for more endless arguments on the talk pages, however, I will revert any statements that have not received consensus with all parties prior to the arbitration.SD is subject to a topic ban specifically related to Asmahan due to his extremely disruptive behavior, while I am not under any restriction. While I am busy to be a regular contributor, I cannot allow SD's continued pushing of a Syrian agenda. -- Nefer Tweety (talk) 07:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Several of the points of corrections I presented at the talkpage there has already been repeated mediation and consensus over, and the consensus was edit warred away. AC has also already replied to the points at the talkpage so his position is clear: --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Birth date

I've had a look through the available references on the page and there are some conflicting pieces of information. The following references all show different birth dates:

1912-11-25: http://www.alquds.co.uk/index.asp?fname=2008\05\05-23\21m25.htm
1912-??-??: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q&f=false
1917-11-23: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA24#v=onepage&q&f=false
1918-10-25: http://xn--mgbq6dev.com/paper.php?source=akbar&mlf=interpage&sid=64405

Does anyone have any more information about this? It seems as though we don't actually know her birth date. – Quoth (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Printed sources including some written by her family members and Syrian official sources put the date at 1918-10-25. Which makes sense because she was born on the journey back from Turkey after her father fled to Syria, following the fall of Damascus to the Allies on 30-9-1918.

This only underlines what I have said before: take everything written about Asmahan with a grain of salt. Especially if the source is the Egyptian tabloids, Muhammad at-tabe'i, or is drawing its information form them. There's a severe lack of reliable sources on her life. -- Orionist ★ talk 14:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Awesome; thank you for the elaboration. Could you provide the reference information for two of those authoritative sources you just mentioned so that we can use them in the article? – Quoth (talk) 04:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have one I could readily find:

Majed al-Atrash, "أسمهان، أميرة الطرب والسيف والكرم" (English: "Asmahan, The Princess of Tarab, Sword and Generosity"). Al-'Adiyat Magazine, issue: summer 2005. p 75 (in Arabic).

I still have some other magazines but these need to be dug out. Most of the rest are news and stories in the Syrian official newspapers, some of them about the new museum. I'm sure most of these can be found on the newspapers' website, especially Al-Thawra newspaper. All of them put the date at 1918. here is one story I kept on record.

There was also a big fuss in the media about the factual errors of the "Asmahan" series, one of them was the date of birth which the series put at 1917. So maybe you can find something about this in various arabic publications.

Unfortunately I quit working on this article or keeping record of sources long ago, when it turned into a battle zone. I hope you find these helpful, and I'll keep digging for the others. Best regards. -- Orionist ★ talk 20:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

overt plagiarism, misunderstanding of sources, is Misplaced Pages really just a form of plagiarism?

I am the author of Asmahan: Woman, War and Song (which is referred to here and there in the content and editing commentary under the correct and wrong titles) I collected materials on Asmahan for about 15 years, interviewed living family members, reviewed official files including previously closed UK and French documents, reviewed her musical contribution, etc. I am a scholar. I understand that the standards I used are NOT followed by those who are writing and editing Misplaced Pages, i.e. I cite everything and where it may appear to you to be "opinion," I have carefully reviewed supporting documentation. Thus when one of your writers draws straight from my book, w/o citation as to Asmahan's missing her career in Egypt - this is actually a true statement based on her personal correspondance which the Wiki writer has not read, but I have. I'm posting because I see multiple violations of copyright laws. Moreover, how can the editors rule on "disputes" or venture opinions as to facts they don't know (and the posters clearly don't know? The issue about Asmahan's citizenship is just one point. She was born a citizen of the Ottoman empire in the province of Syria (the varying dates of birth are offered because the journalist, Muhammad al-Taba'i claimed that she had falsified her passport; and here I took into account what we know about her family, her siblings, events of the period). She was not a "naturalized" Egyptian in the same way that one can be naturalized in the U.S.A. or get a work permit in the UK. For some reason, she did not acquire Egyptian citizenship in 1927, when it would have been possible for her to do so, but her brother did. This does not make her an Egyptian, but rather an Arab Druze of shami (Levantine) origins who lived in Egypt. She "sang patriotic songs" because one was included in the score of the film she starred in! Other actors and actresses did likewise. Here, there isn't any evidence to suggest how she felt about that ... Sherifa Zuhur```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.1.78 (talk) 16:25, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I attempted to edit the article today. I am not familiar with Misplaced Pages's process, but I received a message saying you removed everything I wrote as it is unverified, even though I have been working on the details of Asmahan's life for 20 years, and am the author of the book that the other writers and written sources keep citing. Then when I logged in, I saw some edits appeared to "take" and some didn't. Some I made because the grammar and language is unclear, but there were also claims made that I know to be false and misunderstandings. For example, Alia al-Mundhir and her three children chose to flee the Jabal (Druze, now Jabal Arab). The children had no voice in the matter. An earlier reference was to the three children coming from Dmarji; however, there was another child alive at that time. Asmahan's "mentors" is not really the right word to describe the composers of her songs. By the time, her career blossomed, Hosni was out of the picture. Qasabji and Ahmad were great composers who sought singers to make their work famous. Qasabji was not Asmahan's mentor, but he admired her, and he lost work with Umm Kulthum because of his association with Asmahan. The description of Asmahan's voice was written in poor English, but also compared her to singers who were not a part of her musical era or tradition (Fairuz and Sabah) and claim she used a "western technique" with no proof offered. it was the composers who chose to include coloratura sections in their songs, and she had the technique to execute these, but it would be a mistake to identify her with the Western-sounding section of Ya Tuyur exclusively. Singing in lawn tarab is quite hard to describe, but also, what a truly "Arab sound" was in 1939 or 1940 wasn't the same as it was in 1929, or in 1953; some of the nasality became less admired, the Turkish-style ornamentation of Asmahan's predecessors went out of style. etc. I could go on and on about why I edited as I did, too bad if you removed it, Sherifa ZuhurZuhur (talk) 01:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

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