Misplaced Pages

Latest revision as of 01:03, 24 November 2024

This is an archive of past discussions about Homosexuality. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Screen Actor

I click the link for "Screen Actor" on Dane Cook wikipedia page and it links here. Is that a Joke? Some how i dont feel it should link here

I believe you would be correct. Some child with too much time on their hands deliberately vandalized the article. Happens all the time, really. E. Sn0 =31337= 23:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Biased Research

I don't even understand why we emphasize this research from the 60's: "In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual." Clearly the issue of "loving father" is biased and represents a subjective point of view. Moreover I just don't think you can trust studies from the super-Christian 60's to provide honest science.

What do you expect from a page that so prominently relies upon the completely and utterly debunked Kinsey studies? --Theadversary 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The burden of proof is upon you to show this study is debunked. And who's to say there's no better scientific study that does in fact hold its water? E. Sn0 =31337= 22:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Use your head, what more proof do you need then the fact that he based his "reasearch" on INMATES? Others have already done a far better job of showing Kinsey was a hack than I ever could. Theadversary 16:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

When inmates were removed from the sampling, the numbers didn't change muchKechvsf 23:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well gee, that just leaves the reform school subjects and the people he recruited from homosexual "friendship" networks. No wonder the numbers don't drop much. The man's research has been debunked by everyone who has looked at it objectively. The University of Chicago (not a bastion of conservative activism) in 1990 released a study which proved definitively that Kinsey's sample pool was badly flawed. They noted that he specifically recruited subjects from classes of people likely to have had the desired sexual experiences (e.g., inmates, homosexuals, and reform school youths). Not one study that has been conducted based upon statistical sampling has come even close to Kinsey's numbers for homosexuals. Not one. The most recent one that I'm aware of, the 2002 study by the Center for Disease Control, found the number was 2.3%. A far cry from Kinsey's 10%. Theadversary 04:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

Searching for "JESUS" redirects here. Matt714 04:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems to go to the right entry to me, today, anyway. Are you still seeing that? --Rschmertz 02:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Religion

The article does not mention a christian's point of view. The bible clearly states that homosexuals are far from god and possibly beyond salvation. Someone please add this line in the article. Thank you. 134.106.199.30 09:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

They are far from God when they act on their homosexuality. PatPeter 00:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you'd bothered to *read* (not to mention sign your name) you might have noticed the rather large section on "Religion" in the article, or the link to the topic "religion and homosexuality" which quite clearly covers Christian perspectives -- from the liberal and tolerant, to the conservative and fundamentalist. Before you go whining on talk pages about your POV not being represented, remember, this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a religious text. POV's can be presented neutrally (ie. "many christian sects believe homosexuality to be proscribed behavior according to the bible,) without veering into clear POV presentation in the article (ie. "homosexuality is an abomination unto the lord and all homosexuals are wicked."). Dave 15:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC) 15:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Get a new bible. Yours is broken. This article is about homosexuality, not about religious justifications and rationalizations of cruelty to others. Christianity is based on christ, christ taught to have love and compassion for others, not hatred. Atom 12:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I was bored and what could be easier to get some attention than by putting up something controversial on the internet. I did not mean it, I'm not even religious. Just delete the whole thing. Sorry again. 134.106.199.2 16:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC) (posting from lib. IP could have changed slightly)

You forgot to mention that Christains point of view isn't the worlds view, that some people think the bible and God are just fairy tales and that having strong hateful and ignorant views based on fairy tales is in itself rediculous. Sure a Christian point of view may have a place in the article, but you speak it as if it is fact, which is rather offensive JayKeaton 10:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Christ died for ALL sins, including homosexuality. Besides, the Old Testament has got its share of suggestive gay relationships. And, 134.106.199.2, it's fine, I'm religious and I disagree with your first statement. See? I forgave you right there. Christ's word. Augustulus 01:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

You obviously do not read the Bible that much, or you just do not understand it. Did God ever give an OK to these gay relationships? No. Was not gay practice between individuals or orgies common in the day? Read some Greek or Roman history. Was there any reason fo you to post "the Old Testament has got its share of suggestive gay relationships"? Not really. PatPeter 00:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a controvercial topic, and as such it has two sides. I don't care who you side with, but I think both perspectives need to be recognized equally. This article, in my opinion, is very heavily biased on the pro-homosexual side. There needs to be more balance.Disparager 23:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not give equal time to hatred. FCYTravis 23:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Then how is it that you are allowed to have an account here? That was a pretty hateful thing to say. --Theadversary 19:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hatred is not a valid POV. Your ad hominem is a logical fallacy. And please do not format your comments in such a manner as to cause a horizontal scroll. It is detrimental to readability. Thank you.

Your opinion that adversaries of the gay special rights agenda "hate" is just that, opinion. Not everyone who disagrees with a homosexual hates homosexuals. And your hypocrisy is duly noted. Your labeling of a difference of opinion as "hatred" is, indeed, an ad hominem designed to shout down debate. Theadversary 22:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. there is scientific evidence that homosexuality is genetic, just like race. Homophobia is no better than racism. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you know your little scientific proof?

Alpha) Scientific proof?!? His discoveries were not posted, did he do this all himself because I do not see a mention of a team, I guess you are just following one man's word, here, I will say that gays are not set biologically, let's see how many people agree with me.

Beta) Being gay IS a choice!

Do the gays choose to take part in sexual interaction with one and other?

Do they try to fight it? Change?

Gamma) All the last sentences end with "Bradshaw said" or "Bradshaw sited" this is not scienitfic proof, this is garbage. PatPeter 00:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't seriously believe that drivel. -- Steel 00:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The Christian view today is that it is a sin and you should hate gays. But a someone following what Jesus taught would know they are sinning, but they shouldn't hate them. We as Christians should love them, not become gay, but love them as a brother. Accept them, don't accept their lifestyle. You see, that's why people aren't drawn to Christianity in America. We Christians are hating, not loving. -71.224.24.99 02:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

YOU ARE ALL Heretics against the church! Even you who claim to be Christians.

A) The Christian view is NOT to hate gays, we shall love our brothers and sisters who are astray, but we shall not accept them if they are not willing to change, i.e. as an example the church does not allow |practicing gay| parishioners (not gays who practice Christianity but their own acts) to be part of the church.

Is that hatred? NO! Do we allow Satan worhipers into the church? It is that simple. I will be happy to quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Bible.

B) Gays are welcome WITH WARM OUTSTRETCHED ARMS into the church if they do not practice their impure acts.

C) Homosexuality is not a sin, why would the Lord punish His creation for something that they did not bring upon themselves?

D) Check my other comments.

PatPeter 00:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Islam and homosexuality

Tthe sentence concerning homosexuality and Islam is as follows "Islam regards love and desire for beautiful youths (adolescent men or boys) as a natural temptation for all men, sexual relations however as a transgression negatory of the natural role and aim of sexual activity". This statement is not only untrue but also contradicts itself. If such a statement is true then same sex relationships would have been regulated the same way heterosexual relationships are regulated through marriage. I would like the author(s) to cite one reference that states that such a feeling is regarded as normal in Islam. The reference quoted in the article only deals with the second half of the sentence.--Waashwal 19:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, let me point out that the sentence does not contradict itself; it is not logically very different, I think, from the policy of the Catholic church, which recognizes homosexuality as a condition, but bans homosexual acts. But to the matter at hand... I agree with you that the first half of the sentence seems unsupported by the citation (though I didn't get through the whole article -- it's difficult to read). Furthermore, as Islam is not a monolithic religion like Catholicism, one has to be careful with general statements of Islamic doctrine. Someone may be able to dig up a writing by an Islamic scholar or two that supports the notion that desire for beautiful boys is natural, but without a sense of how well accepted such ideas are in Muslim society at large, they must at least be qualified (e.g. "Some scholars have stated that...").

Firstly, I do think that there is a great difference between recognizing something as a condition and trying but bans the practice; and suggesting that something is normal yet it is prohibited and sinful. I totally agree with you in the second point. And until supporting evidence is provided I think such a statement should removed or labeled as --Waashwal 15:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Incidence of Homosexuality

After reading over this article, (and many other related articles) I still can't seem to get a clear idea of incidence. From what I understand, it is only reported that 1-5% (varying figures across different studies) of the population identifies as homosexual, or has had homosexual thoughts or experiences. However, there are a few things to take into consideration when looking at these relatively low figures:

1.) Incidence versus observation

If these statistics accurately reflected the homosexual population, then how are people getting together in the first place? There would simply be too many non-homosexual people to keep them distanced. As well, we also have to take into consideration the incidence of being closeted versus being open. This would play a large role in hindering how people manage to identify one another. I have also noticed that these figures vary quite much depending on how conservative or liberal the area is, which brings me to...

2.) Social stigmatization

Another important factor to consider is the possible levels of dishonesty in these studies, where people who may very well be classified as homosexual (or simply have homosexual thoughts or experiences) may fear persecution, or have not yet come to terms with themselves due to impeding social standards.

Thoughts? Grendel 10:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of incidence of homosexuality and bisexuality is a thorny and complicated one. As with any social surveys, these studies are limited by several key factors, in addition to some issues that are specific to the study on human sexuality.

First and foremost, there's an issue of uniformity in defition. It seems trivial at first, but it is a very daunting task to define homosexuality. Are we speaking of thoughts and fantasy alone? Are we speaking of actual actions? If the latter, are we distinguishing between voluntary and situational same-sex sexual contacts? What about one-time flings? Do we count those? To get an accurate picture, one must go about the Kinsey way of using an exhaustive set of interview questions. For the most part, surveys do not have that sort of resources.

Secondly, as all surveys that rely on self-reporting do, these surveys are only as accurate as the targets are willing to be honest. Besides the social pressure and the potential adversities from disclosing one's sexual orientation, we are also dealing with self-identification. Do people who live on the low-down consider themselves as homosexual? Certain cultures do not perceive the penetrative partner in a male-male couple as gay, but do so for the penetrated partner.

Thirdly, homosexual people in the United States (and possible everywhere else) are not uniformly distributed geographically. They tend to be more concentrated in certain cities. This is not to say there aren't any gay people in the rural areas. In fact, there are plenty of us out there (and everywhere). The issue is sampling and sampling errors due to non-uniformity in distribution.

So, taken together, the accuracy of any surveys on the incidence of homosexuality must be evaluated carefully with a sharp eye to the methodology. Even then, the results must be taken as valid only for the criteria that it operated under and generalization to the entire population would be problematic.

Nevertheless, the incidence of homosexuality is not in itself a terribly useful piece of information outside of the academia. Consider that if there are only 2% of the U.S. population who're gay, there'll be still more gay people than there are residents in several states, like Rhode Island and Montanna. If the incidence of homosexuality is used as justification to deny equal rights for gay people, then all one has to do to see the absurdity of that argument is to imagine denying every citizen of Rhode Island that same right and/or protection.

Qifeng 05:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There must be a more accurate way to gather data. With statistics being so hazy, it's difficult for anyone to get an idea of just how incidental homosexuality actually is. All the studies I've looked over so far disagree with one another far too much, and their methods of research are often too questionable to have any credibility. I'm afraid that no matter how much want to gather honest statistics, societal standards will always hinder our ability to collect any real data. 65.6.42.22 18:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the quest to gather data on the incidence of homosexuality is a fruitless cause; when there is no absolute definition of what gay actually is, how can it, or they, be counted? The notion of researchers applying a label to a subject based on the subject's observed sexual behaviour is equally faulty as it relies on the researcher's bias towards what constitutes gay and what doesn't. All that could ever be quantified are those who admittedly self-identify as gay, and, as pointed out, societal standards will affect how forthcoming those surveyed will answer. Because the label and how it is applied is hazy, the statistics regarding it will always be just as hazy. --G2bambino 19:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that its quite simple. Do you identify as homosexual? Its not about acts but rather classification. Technically I am homosexually yet I would answer no, because I do not identify as such. To all extents and purposes this is all that is needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.110.24 (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Homosexuality in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices?

If there is to be assumptions noted on homosexuality being present in ancient Buddhist and Samurai practices, I think it would be best to cite them. There shouldn't be remarks like that unless you can provide otherwise. SprSynJn 17:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This is well-known. See Shudo. -- lazy anonymous

Not so ancient either - the formal tradition only died out in the eighteen hundreds. Haiduc 19:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

And it's exceedingly well documented. Exploding Boy 23:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well-known? Possibly, depending on where you are. I dont know where you came up with the conclusion "exceedingly well documented" when the main article does not cite sources. The Shudo string that lazy posted does have a source, which is good. Not sure if it is valid or not, will have to look into the book to determine that. SprSynJn 18:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In Japan, it was called "yaoi". It was the relationship between two men, mostly referenced to an older man and a younger man, though it can be meant for both. It was a common practice in the 1800's, looked down upon, but common none the less. --Majinvegeta 17:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The Roman Catholic Church

The following entry should be slightly modified:

"The Roman Catholic Church requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are 'intrinsically disordered', and 'contrary to the natural law'. It insists that all are expected to only have heterosexual relations and only in the context of a marriage . . ."

The second sentence should be modified to read:

"It insists that any persons who do not intend to remain celibate should have only lawful sexual relations (that is, intercourse only within the context of marriage) . . ."

Problems with the existing entry:

1) The clumsy writing seems to imply that the Catholic Church insists on compulsory "heterosexual relations". In fact, the Church insists, first, on virginity or celibacy. Chaste (or lawful) intercourse would then be a secondary activity within the proper context of marriage.

As Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986): "Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life." (Section 12) Note the phrase "as all of us are": even those who are married are called to live chastely.

2) "Heterosexual relations" is too broad because it subsumes many sexual activities not sanctioned by the Church. That is, not all "heterosexual relations" are "chaste" in the eyes of the Church.

It is also worth noting that the Church refers to "heterosexuals" and "homosexuals" only in a heuristic sense -- that is, references in Church documents to "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals" should not be taken to imply that it regards "heterosexuality" or "homosexuality" as spiritually essential or objective conditions. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote in "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" (1986):

"The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation . . . the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a 'heterosexual' or a 'homosexual' and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God . . ." (Section 16)

It should thus be borne in mind that the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any materialist or quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual.

(Also, I'm not sure that "Roman" Catholic is correct. The Catholic Church's views on "homosexuality" would presumably apply to Catholics who observe the Byzantine rite as well as those who observe the Roman rite.)

Huh...what about Byzantine rite Catholics? Are they better placed under Catholic or Orthodox as far as this question goes...or do they need their own category? I don't think we can quite say they're "presumably" in line with Rome on this. I know some Byzantine-rite Catholics are part of Axios, so... Also, anon guy, can you source the claim that the church privileges celibacy above lawful married sexuality? I remember that as being the subject of a lot of waffling and debate. Also, do you happen to know the origin of the term "homogenital"? Do you see it in official statements of the church? Also, can you give sources for the Ratzinger quotes, in case we want to incorporate them into the article? DanB DanD 17:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

    * * * * *

Hi Dan, sorry for the tardy response.

1) Virginity vs. Chaste Marriage: Augustine: "by divine law continence is preferred to marriage and holy virginity to wedlock" (De Sancta Virginitate, Oxford, 2001, p. 67); "the chastity of continence is better than the chastity of marriage, though both are a good" (De Bono Coniugali, Oxford, 2001, p. 53); "marriage and virginity are two goods, of which the second is the greater" (De Bono Coniugali, p. 55). Council of Trent: "CANON X.-If any one saith, that the marriage state is to be placed above the state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be united in matrimony; let him be anathema." Link: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Trent/trentcom.html

2) Ratzinger quotes: "The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" in Origins: Catholic News Service Documentary Service 16, no. 22 (November 13, 1986). Or see the following: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

3) Re "homogenital": I have no idea.

4) Axios, etc.: I was simply pointing to the fact that if "Roman" in "Roman Catholic" is used to indicate a difference in RITE (Roman vs. Byzantine), then the word "Roman" is misleading (and irrelevant). Yes, there is within the Catholic Church a difference between Roman and Byzantine rites. It does not follow, however, that there is a difference in DOCTRINES. Eastern (or "Greek") Catholics hold the same doctrines concerning "homosexuality" as do Western ("Roman") Catholics. Thus, while there is a Catholic teaching about "homosexuality", it does not follow that there is a specifically "Roman" Catholic teaching. As for Axios: that has to do with the personal opinions of Orthodox Christians who self-identify as "gay" -- but it has nothing to do with church doctrine. Similary, once can find a Roman Catholic such as Andrew Sullivan who not only self-identifies as "gay", but who also speaks in favor of gay (or same-sex) marriage. But again, such personal opinions can hardly be confused with church doctrine.

5) Another problem with the entry: "the Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity". I would write instead, "the . . . Church, requires those who experience homosexual desires to practice chastity". As the Ratzinger quote above shows, the Church uses the words "heterosexual" and "homosexual" to point to the character of a DESIRE, not to define the nature of a PERSON. Freudians and marketers targeting a demographic may think in terms of "heterosexuals" or "homosexuals", "heterosexual persons" or "homosexual persons" -- the Church, however, does not. As I wrote earlier, "the Church's spiritual notions of personal identity are historically very different from (and incompatible with) any contemporary quasi-Freudian notions that treat desire (specifically, sexual desire) as the constitutive element of the individual." I stress this in order to highlight how Catholic presuppositions about "sexuality" differ markedly from the presupposions implicit in almost every entry on this page.

Regards,

Brothers and Homosexuality

From the Wiki article: "In a study comparing the effects of being raised with older "brothers" and having biological older brothers, published July 26, 2006 in PNAS, Bogaert found that there was a link to homosexuality only if the older brothers were biologically related and even when they were not raised together. "

Bogaert did the follow-up study because of objections that the homosexual connection could just as well be associated with social relationships as with biological effects. His finding that it doesn't affect non-biological brothers overlooks the fact that non-biologically related brothers undoubtedly have an entirely different attitude regarding jealousy, etc. between each other.

Bogaert's 1996 study was strongly criticized. Many pointed out that siblings' behavioral influence on each other, particularly the older male sibling on the younger, is the most probable cause of any statistical showing that younger male siblings were more likely to be homosexual than the average in society.

So Bogaert got grant money to do a follow-up. This time he would study male siblings where the other family siblings are adopted or from families created by re-marriage. His statistics show that in these situations there is no trend towards homosexuality. Therefore, it must be because of the mother's hormones.

Nonsense, again. For all these siblings know who is biologically connected. The emotive reaction to genetic older siblings (on the part of all family members) is bound to be different, as is their behavior towards each other. Not only is there knowledge by family members. Those outside the family know it. And the intimacy of close contact from birth is bound to differ in such situations. In fact, if you take away his biological connection, it would tend to prove the opposite, i.e., that older male siblings' dominant relation and the inner-family dynamic of desire for approval from the biologic parents may have some effect on a homosexual orientation.

Bogaert's study should lead social scientists to compare this situation with numerous studies showing the relationship between first borns and older siblings with younger ones, rather than jumping to biologic conclusions. It would be particularly interesting to see if there are studies in this area (economic success of first-born compared to subsequently born; differences in age; choice of jobs; effect on middle child, etc) involving siblings who are adopted or are re-marriages.

In other words, we are aware of trends regarding 1st, middle, final sibling, etc. regarding different types of economic and social "success." How about comparisons of biological siblings and non-biological siblings in this area? Is there any substantial comparison between the biologically related siblings and those that are not biologically related? If the non-biological siblings don't follow the same pattern as the biologically related ones, that would tend to also disprove Bogaert's argument regarding non-biological brothers

Note also, that all of this is just a wild assumption by someone trying to prove a biological connection (which no one has ever shown) by a sociologic statistic. There is no medical proof. His answer, like that of most psychologists today, is to throw up their hands and declare: "It must be biology (including chemistry) because we were so wrong when we declared homosexuality to be a mental disorder."

Eventually, someone will figure out that like the infamous I.Q. tests that once claimed that race determined intelligence, our emotive relations with other is a bundle of many factors including biological randomness, society, and intrafamily relationships.

In full agreeance. Seems to be the general outcome in most psychological debates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.206.110.24 (talk) 11:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Sexual Identities Template

I added it again, its more insclusive now, and not simply seemingly a redundancy of the sexual orientation box, i think it should be included.. any thoughts? Qrc2006 00:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As the person who removed it a couple of times as "not ready for prime-time," I can say that I'm pleased with the evolution of this template. It's already led me to a couple of articles I hadn't visited before. CovenantD 01:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think three related templates on the same pages is a bit messy. Is there any way the three can be integrated? DanB†DanD 01:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Albanian virgins

The reference to Albanian virgins seems out of place with the section it's in, and with the article in general. From what I've been able to find about the practice, it has nothing intrinsic to do with homosexuality, let alone with the structure of a homosexual relationship. Has this been brought up before? --Rschmertz 04:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not familiar with it, either, but it doesn't seem pertinent at first glance. I'm inclined to wait a bit for any objections, but if none seem to be forthcoming, it may as well be edited out. Luna Santin 18:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I googled it, and it seems to be mostly a way for women to get out of an arranged marriage by giving up all sex forever. That hardly seems like getting the "rights of a man" since according to what I read her sex life was just as fiercely policed afterward. DanB†DanD 20:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

They reject heterosexuality. Definitely a orientation change there. They reject the dress of women and dress as men. They may drink as men. They may smoke as men. They may own and transfer property as men. It's at least andro and perhaps butch and definitely transgendered and it belongs in this category. They are definitely living a homo life, regardless of what they do with their genitalia or not. Traditional Homosexualities Women Who Became Men Neutralaccounting 17:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

They reject ALL sexuality, homo or hetero - hence the term "Sworn Virgins". The social convention was apparently a response to a chronic shortage of men in Balkan society due to incessant, lethal feuding - it permitted women to renounce all sexual expression and take on the social roles of men, including smoking, drinking, playing certain musical instruments and probably most importantly, pursuing stereotypical male occupations in society such as blacksmith or weapons manufacturer. Although in some cases there may be a transgender proclivity in some who take advantage of this opportunity to switch gender roles in general, it is an asexual societal position: all sexual expression is forsworn, operationally neutering the participants. Doesn't seem to belong in a general article on homosexuality at all. - User QuantumDriel.

Here's the wiki article: Sworn virgin. Seems pretty tangential to homosexuality. DanB†DanD 18:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Erratic Russian Link

At the top of the list of links to WP articles in other languages, I'm seeing a link with text "Pyccknn" (latin approximation, cut me some slack) linking to something that appears to be a category or template re:LGBT or so. I can't find the Wiki markup that creates this link; can anybody help? The regular Russian link to the homosexuality article seems to be in the proper place, doing the correct thing. --Rschmertz 16:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The template LGBT had a link to the Russian category, which in turn made this page (and any other page with that template) have a link to it. I removed it. -Branddobbe 02:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

'Homosexuality' as a Social Construction

The article does not reflect the serious body of work that views homosexuality as a social construct, notably from Foucault. Such views, if valid, provide serious limitations to the use of such terms. 'Homosexuality' as a concept can be viewed as a historico-cultural peculiarity of 19th century attempts to classify types of person and personalities. In other times and cultures such concepts make little sense e.g. the compulsory same sex activity prevalent in the Spartan armed forces or the ritualised male fellatio in Melanesian society. Even in today's society, it's far from clear that terms such as 'homosexual' or 'heterosexual' are at all useful except, perhaps, in making casual generalisations about behaviour or preference.--Nmcmurdo 00:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"Gay" and "lesbian" are POV?

Nmcmurdo,

I don't understand your objection to the sentence about the adjective 'homosexual' (you wrote: "Deleted sentence which presumes the ontological status of 'gay' and 'lesbian' - POV"). Is there really such disagreement about the meaning of these words? I confess that I don't understand what ontological means. --Rschmertz 17:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. The sentence in question chose to draw a distinction between 'homosexual relations' and 'being' (hence the ontological reference) 'gay' or 'lesbian'. Such a distinction assumes as a premise that nature of being gay or lesbian is not behaviourally defined. This is a common view, but it is one that can be and is contested. I can't define ontological any better than Misplaced Pages! --Nmcmurdo 18:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm an anonymous wikipedian, but for what it is worth, I support this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.45.168.167 (talk) 12:48, October 29, 2006

You support what? --Rschmertz 17:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

FOUR different templates???

The page looks kind of crappy and disorganized now with all those different templates and portal graphics jammed up against each other. Are they really all necessary? DanB†DanD 21:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

New article on homosexuality in nature

As a newly registered user I cannot add any part of the article I found (titled "Birds and bees may be gay: museum exhibition") to this one, but maybe someone could check out this link and consider adding a reference to this article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10405795.

The Birds and Bees article cited a scientist: "Geir Soeli, the project leader of the exhibition entitled 'Against Nature,' told Reuters: 'Homosexuality has been observed for more than 1,500 animal species, and is well documented for 500 of them.'"

The article also explores why homosexuality occurs in nature, when it appears to be a genetic dead-end: "Still, it is unclear why homosexuality survives since it seems a genetic dead-end.

Among theories, males can sometimes win greater acceptance in a pack by having homosexual contact. That in turn can help their chances of later mating with females, he said.

And a study of homosexual men in Italy suggested that their mothers and sisters had more offspring. "The same genes that give homosexuality in men could give higher fertility among women," he said."

The "he" in that quote is also Geir Soeli.

Shannon Bullock 02:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

NARTH

Please add http://narth.com/ to the list of external references —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.32.206 (talk • contribs)

No. NARTH is a hate group on par with Focus on the Family, American Family Association, and Family Research Council. Request denied! E. Sn0 =31337= 05:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, anyone who disagrees with the current conventional wisdom is a "hate group"? What a convenient excuse to avoid making this article more accurate and less one-sided than it clearly is. There is not ONE single article or link to a contrary source and/or POV. If this website wasn't run by a bunch of leftists -- if it was truly the neutral site it claims to be -- this entire article would be makred as a violation of NPOV. --Theadversary 18:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

How about you do a regex (regular expression, aka find-replace) of gay into african {or interracial in the case of gay marriage} to any homophobic argument, compare the result with old racist claptrap, then try to tell me homophobia isn't hate. Bigotry is not a valid POV. Thank you. E. Sn0 =31337= 22:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem with your "analysis" is your ridiculously broad definition of "homophobia". NARTH is not "homophobic". Your argument assumes facts not in evidence based upon your own slanted view of the world, which seems to be, "anyone who disagrees with a homosexual is a homophobe." NARTH is a professional organization, does not hate homosexuals, and has a valid point of view. YOU are the hater here who is clearly engaged in a non-neutral attempt at jamming a message you don't like -- straight out of the homosexual special rights activist playbook. Theadversary 15:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"current conventional wisdom" is not what your opinion... narth, focus on the family, and AFA share the viewpoint of a very, very small minority of people at the most... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.136.197 (talk • contribs)

As well it should be. E. Sn0 =31337= 18:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? Either of you have some proof to back that up? You'd better check the number of states who have recently enacted statutes and constitutional amendments to prevent gay marriage. Some of those votes have occurred in liberal, pro-gay mecas like California, and some have been by 3 to 1 margins. Theadversary 16:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the link would fit better on the "ex gay" page? Fitz05 20:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it would. E. Sn0 =31337= 20:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Because heave forbid we actually have a neutral page on homosexuality on Misplaced Pages. Theadversary 16:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody have a reliable source stating that this Narth group is a hate group? Otherwise, I see no reason not to include it. Remember people, we're not supposed to edit based on what we think, but rather on what we can cite properly. --Wildnox(talk) 16:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No they don't, and can't, because it isn't. But don't take my word for it either, check NARTH out for yourself. Theadversary 16:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Given that NARTH is focused on curing homosexuality and isn't about homosexuality, I don't believe it belongs in this article. Just my $0.02US... -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the way that Theadversary added the link to the article is alright, or at least it would be if he cited his claim that they don't use or condone the older methods. He just put it in the Behaviour modification section, which is what NARTH is based on. Notability compared to other groups may be questionable though. --Wildnox(talk) 18:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I linked to NARTH's website, check the link in the line. Regardless, this entire section needs a rewrite. It is so biased it isn't even funny. It starts out from the position that no "reputable" therapist practices reparative therapy because of the APA's position and then goes on to talk about testicles being wired with a pathetic link to an unsourced opinion piece on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site. I'm going to put together a more balanced article when I get a spare minute that will try to discuss in the same space the basics of reparative therapy epitomized by NARTH, the faith-based ex-gay programs epitomized by Exodus, and the critiques of such programs that already appear here. That should clean up the serious problem with neutrality this section of the article has. Theadversary 04:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, there is no neutrality issue here. NARTH's views are that of a small fringe of bigots who have been discredited and dismissed by the entire mainstream mental health community. Misplaced Pages is not required to give "equal time" or "undue weight" to such groups, nor does NPOV require that we somehow create "balance" where none actually exists. NARTH says one thing, literally everyone else says something else. We report that, and that's the end of it. FCYTravis 07:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

PROVE that NARTH members are bigots. Your statement is hateful and proves the lack of neutrality here. Theadversary 22:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

A neutral non-POV response to putting (or not putting) NARTH on the page is this: What is the empirical validity of NARTH's central claim that homosexuality is not an inborn sexual orientation analogous to left-handedness but a psycho-emotional perversion that can be cured? NARTH's claim is prima facia as reasonable as any other. The question is: Is it empirically true? The answer is no. There is an overwhelming consensus in the scientific community that homosexuality is a sexual orientation correlating with no known pathology. It may be social and/or biological origin. But all the evidence states that it is neither alterable nor pathological. One may disagree with the consensus. The consensus may be wrong. But objectively that is the scientific consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandlerburr (talk • contribs)

Just to add, I've read reliable scientific studies that show that a gay person's brain is biologically different to a straight person's brain to a much lesser extent than a left-handed person's brain is to a right-handed person's brain, or than a man's brain is to a woman's. In other words we're people just like everyone else, and more physiologically (is this the correct strain of science I'm looking to refer to?) similar than somebody who's simply left-handed instead of right-handed, despite what most bigots would argue. Being a left-handed bisexual, I found this rather helpful and interesting when I read it. Though I don't have a source right now, it shouldn't be too hard to find. Scientific studies also show that sexuality is genetic and hereditary, which proves once again that NARTH is merely close-minded propaganda. Homosexuality is nothing to be "cured" or otherwise altered. Homosexuals can live a perfectly normal, happy life just like anybody else, and the only thing that could possibly stop them from this is relentless bigots who seem to want to make life difficult for anybody different than them. Life is hard enough for somebody of a non-heterosexual orientation, and we don't need "organizations" such as NARTH to present pseudo-psychology in support of bigotry. I'm going to stop myself now before I begin ranting, or ramble anymore than I already have. 4.234.30.224 08:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, scientific study shows that although genetics sometimes seem to have a strong correlation with sexual orientation, there sometimes doesn't seem to be any correlation at all. It is wrong to say sexuality is or isn't genetic. Regardless of how sexual orientation is formed, the overwhelming consensus is that it cannot be changed, but that doesn't mean it's genetic. Herorev 16:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Studies have shown that it is genetic. See the sources quoted in the article. If you have sources that show that it is not genetic, or some other perspective, then add those to the article and cite them. it is not our job to argue whether it is true, or not true, but to document reliable sources. Atom 17:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the American Psychiatric Association removed Homosexuality from their DSM in 1987, because they concluded that homosexuals can live a normal life like anybody else. I have read this in several places, and this just proves that NARTH is furthering pseudo-science that was deemed illogical and non-scientific long ago. 4.234.30.224 08:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Questionable redirects

I was examining the redirects to this page and have picked out some that, in my opinion, are of questionable validity. However, I thought I'd get community consensus. The ones I've picked out are:

Queball
User:Mykenism (NOTE:This was set up by the user, but I don't believe user pages are supposed to redirect to article space, are they?)
Buttfuckery
Talons brain and or penis
Poofter
Steve Wisdom
That way
Yagsinujtay

Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there. - GassyGuy 05:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)