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Revision as of 01:09, 21 January 2010 editRuodyssey (talk \| contribs)Pending changes reviewers10,722 edits →article is a general history of gays in military, not specifically about DADT: reply← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 02:37, 19 November 2024 edit undoNatGertler (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users44,309 edits →Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link: ReplyTag: Reply
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			== External links modified ==

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	I have several problems with this article:

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 08:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
	1) There is very little documentation.
	2) It is heavily biased towards allowing homosexuals in the military.
	3) The "History" section is a history of homosexuals in the military--not a history of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.
	4) It says in the Intro that the policy was authored by ], but says that ] authored it in the History.

			== External links modified ==
	] (]) 22:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)lacarids February 15, 2009.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	In response to your points:<br>
	1) The article itself now appears to be heavily documented. Consider using {{tl\|fact}} or {{tl\|unreferencedsection}} to request sources on individual sentences or sections, respectively.<br>
	2) Per ] and ], please ] biased sentences, sections, etc.<br>
	3) Agreed, however, no such article ] exists as with ]. Please cross-link ], ] and ]. I'd suggest leaving post-1993 history directly related to DADT in this article.<br>
	4) True, I have removed the Collin Powell sentence per ] and removed the Moskos paragraph since it was unsourced. ] (]) 03:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

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	::::Charles is absolutely correctly this article is a history of gays in the US military and not specifically focused on ].

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	::::It needs to be cleaned up, imo. There should be an article on DADT and a separate article on the history of homosexuals in the military. May tackle it myself one of these days. But not today.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 11:25, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
	::::But I think it needs to be tagged. Have to find the appropriate one.

			== Trac(e)y Thorne ==
	::::] (]) 17:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

			{{ping\|2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75\|Gooner2004}}, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on ] which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.<br>I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 ''Virtual Equality'' mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on ], so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 ''Gay Rights, Military Wrongs'' mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ]]] seems to be meant. ] (]) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
	== "Beginning of the policy" quote ==

			== NBC article ==
	I don't mind that my edit was removed, would just like suggestions on letting the readers know that a discharge, despite the quote being in place, could result from (not just actions) but from disclosure of someone's sexual orientation -- ] (]) 03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
			=== Redress ===

			{{quote\|Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22">https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104</ref>}}
	* I think that's covered in the quote under "a statement that the member is homosexual or bisexual". Just ''stating'' it is the action. ] (]) 10:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

			This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". ] (]) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
	== "pedophiles who engage in a self-destructive and immoral life-style." ==

			=== Ongoing discrimination ===
	The article contained this unsourced statement: "In 1993, the two reports were published alongside an argument by an armed forces general who argued against lifting the ban on homosexual- and bisexual-identified people based on a belief that they pose a security risk, will erode unit cohesion and morale alongside the argument that most homosexual and bisexual oriented people are pedophiles who engage in a self-destructive and immoral life-style."

			{{quote\| LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22"/>}}
	I can't find any support for this statement. I've searched several databases, including Google News archive and LexisNexis academic. The GAO report was published in June 1992. Which general said this? Who published the two reports? If this is true, give details. ] (]) 12:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

			This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". ] (]) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
	== Outing and DADT ==

			{{reftalk}}
	Does DADT prohibit fellow soldiers from outing a homosexual colleague? The article only tells of the "Don't Ask"-part as it relates to officers. ] (]) 22:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

			== Misleading intro ==
	== article is a general history of gays in military, not specifically about DADT ==

			The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. ] (]) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
	I've tagged this article with {{incoherent-topic}} as it is not focused on "Don't Ask/Don't Tell" but, rather, is a general history of gays in the US military.

			:It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --] (]) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
	Clearly a separate article on the latter topic is needed.

			== Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link ==
	And DADT is important enough to warrant a separate article on its own.

	Obviously, DADT would be part of a more general historical article on homosexuals in the military but this article is crying out for a complete splitting of the two topics.

			There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for ], a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for ], the LGBT rights activist. ] (]) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	] (]) 18:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

			:Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- ] (]) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	: '''Agree'''. The article has grown beyond the scope of DADT and should be split off to ]. See ]. The only other country-specific example there is ]. - ] (]) 23:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
	: I've gone ahead and created the page ]. I'll keep migrating the History section, time permitting. - ] (]) 02:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
	:Okay, I've moved quite a bit but only the pre-1993 stuff that's definitely not about DADT. Many of the Responses sound to me more about gays in the U.S. military in general (as a result of the DADT policy) and may be better suited at the new article, but I'll leave it for now and let other editors pick them out if they like. - ] (]) 05:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
	:'''Disagree'''. Although other articles may exist on the topic of LGBT people serving in their military fileds ''this'' article written at an acceptable or good level should definitely include background on their serving in the past and how exposure was dealt/not dealt with. This is one of the first things that most decent articles or books on the subject cover - that LGBT folks have always been in the service and the issue has been handled unevenly at best. ] 06:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
	::I see what you mean. Other famous cases tend to have weighty backgrounds in their articles. It was never my intention to merge all of the History section, so I wish I could have found a better tag. Merge portion? Anyway, are you opposed to having the ] article at all? There's plenty of room for overlap. - ] (]) 11:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
	:::I think this article best serves our readers as focussed on DADT. The policy is well-known worldwide and many sources discuss only it so there's no reason it can't be built up. The other article exists now and a version of it is acceptable and likely needed to fit in with other articles on this subject. I think the other article should be a history of LGBT in US military service - not just policy. My hunch is that the policies can serve as a benchmark of sorts but I remember from other articles that, for instance, WWII had a huge impact on LGBT culture and a huge percentage of lesbian personnel. This is valuable context that is lost when the focus is solely on one aspect. As both articles develop it's likely that what content should be migrated or summarized thus improving both articles. ] 11:55, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
	:::: That's what we're here for - improving both articles. I just wanted to help lay out a structure to facilitate expansion, since they're so closely tied. How about renaming the new page ]? I agree DADT should have an informative background section to catch readers up to speed on the issue before going into an exposition on DADT's enactment, debate, and case history. (It might be a good idea to include a "For further information..." link to the new page.) By all means, feel free to copy/move stuff back into DADT as you see fit. - ] (]) 01:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

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Trac(e)y Thorne

@2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75 and Gooner2004:, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on Tracy Thorne-Begland which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.
I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 Virtual Equality mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer, so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 Gay Rights, Military Wrongs mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ] seems to be meant. -sche (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

NBC article

Redress

Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". Zazpot (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing discrimination

LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". Zazpot (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

^ https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104

Misleading intro

The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. Prinsgezinde (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link

There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for Choi Daniel, a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for Dan Choi, the LGBT rights activist. Tommymunkey (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

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