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==Founder of the Olympic Games==
As noted in ], a few citations or references would be nice to have to back up the claim that Zappas founded the modern Olympic Games. Actually, there aren't any references. --] 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:'''Note:''' I'm not arguing the notability of the person, just the text in the article. --] 19:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

::Cripes, I look away for a few months and the article gets infested with POV-pushing. was one of the sources I used in creating the article (original text: ), along with a page at athens2004.net which is now offline. It's still a good source, and draws the distinction between the Zappian Olympic Games founded by Zappas and the current incarnation of the Olympics. The Games of Zappas pre-dated Coubertin's Games and were an inspiration for him, but the Zappian Games folded after 1875. The modern Olympic Games run by the IOC are a different set of Olympic Games. -- ] | ] 23:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:::The older edit is a lot better and definitely NPOV. I propose reverting it to that version. If there are no objections, I'll do it. --] 01:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

::::Actually there are plenty of references to back up the fact that Zappas funded the first modern international Olympic Games. If you don't look you don't find. ] 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I think that the "Olympics through Time" source reference should be deleted. The information is second or third hand. It adds nothing that isn't already in the other sources which are original source references. ] 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

::::It isn't right to say that the Zappas Olympic Games "folded". Zappas did not just sponsor Olympic Games and he left more than enough money in his legacy to keep the Games going for a very long time. Zappas provided an infrastructure that was used in 1870, 1875, 1896, 1906, and 2004. Nobody else has provided infrastructure for the Olympic Games with such longevity. Describing what Zappas did as having "folded" is short-sighted since the Panathenian stadium has not folded and neither has the Zappeion. In fact, the Olympic Games are still going and the IOC has used Zappas' infrastructure twice since 1896. The Zappeion was used as the Olympic media center in 2004. Clearly, if it "folded", it's been unfolded and reused. ] 15:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

==Greek ancestry? Or Albanian?==

I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

I've provided 5 'rs', saying that he was born Greek in a Greek village by Greek family. About the name, that's really interesting but still dont see the point on that here. I've checked also Zappas testament which is avaible online, he states clear that he is Greek without leaving doupts.] (]) 20:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Alexikoua are you kidding me? He had the choice of either stating:
1. - I am a Greek
2. - I am a Turk
As we both know that Albania did not exist at his time of death, hence he could not have the nationality of a country that did not exist yet. Anyways I'll have to bring some references that he is more likely to have been Albanian. I know pretty well Labova and there are no greeks there, that's for sure] (]--Sulmues 21:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The Greek/Turk dillema is irrelevant since he lived in Romania after the end of the Greek Revolution.] (]) 21:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

So you are proposing the Romanian/Greek dilemma? Solved by Evangelis as "Greek"? Again, he didn't have the option of giving himself the "Albanian" nationality, because such nationality did not exist at the time. ] (] --Sulmues 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest not to ignore 'rs' material. You are confusing nationality with ethnicity, and Albanian ethnicity, existed that time.] (]) 05:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I personally am very skeptical about his ethnicity. My impression is that the Labovits have been exclusively Albanians in 1800 (and still are), however they would speak Greek pretty well as a second language since (1) it was the language of the church (2) many of them had emigrated in Greece to conduct better business (3) it was the language of many business activities. In addition, people would usually go to Greek schools organized by the Church, so they knew Greek pretty well since it was taught since their childhood. Now saying that the labovits were Greeks is going the extralength: speaking Greek as a second language does not make you a Greek and I can assure you that I know Labova pretty well. It would be the equivalent of saying that half of the Albanians today are Italian because they watch the Italian television so much that they know Italian as a second language at an impressive quality! Dr. Fedhon Meksi, great, great, great, great nephew of ] teaches us that the Zhapas were grecophiles, and the Meksi clan were Albanofiles, but none of them are greek (see here )! Another more scholarly source simply tells us that Vangjel Zhapa was a rich Albanian. If we start confronting sources we'll be soon edit warring, so the talk page is where we should reach consensus. Simply put, the sources that are currently in the article are not giving sufficient information, actually they are not giving no information at all, because they are not verifiable. Since we're at it, I also disagree with you saying that he Zappa is from ]. He was born in the what was called ]: ] came into existance as a political region only in 1914 when he had already died, hence I disagree with your revert. Could we please discuss? You are saying that the sources say he was from Northern Epirus, but I don't see those sources. Could you please bring them to the talk page? Btw you deleted two sources in the ] article because they were not verifyable, but your sources that are here about his origin are not verifiable either and you are relying on them to show that Zappa was from Northern Epirus. I have one more reference (, see page 9/19) that says:
<blockquote>
'''Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri,most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813:

Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country.
(...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro
… but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to
be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues
of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly
they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails
amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the
native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being
able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I
shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner.
In this place everything was on a very different footing from
what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and
attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of
the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly
plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and
two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in
Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better
night than any since our departure from Ioannina.'''
</blockquote>
Still think that ] was a Greek? He was born around that time when the traveller was writing his memories. In addition, not only ] has alwasy been Albanian, but also ] that has historically been more filogreek and from where ] was, seems to be 100% Albanian according to this impartial British traveller.
] (] --Sulmues 01:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

What I can conclude is that the entire english speaking bibliography, without any ] exaggerations clearly says that he was ethnic Greek, no matter if the villages in his homeland were of mixed ethnicity. What I see is that Zappas was a Greek nationalist and partiot ], (his testament ]). I inform you that the source you brought talks about 'fluid' identities in southern Albania ] and not of a racial purity

Moreover, read about ] and ] in order to see how wiki operates..] (]) 07:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Hm, from the two references that you brought: Golden, the first one, is saying that Zappas was born in Greece, so he seems to be ill-informed as Greece did not exist at that time. We all agree that he spent all his life for Greece only, but we are discussing his ethnicity, which is still open to be proved. The testament: gotta download that rar thingie but now don't have the time. As soon as I do I'll submit it to google translator. Now, the Austrian traveller clearly says:
<blockquote>
'''they no longer spoke Greek'''
</blockquote>
which is no "fluid identity" to me. ] (]--Sulmues 21:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


== RfC ==
Your quest to prove the region's racial purity reminds me on some tottalitarian practices and does not touch me. ] (]) 06:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
<!-- ] 11:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1665831683}}
Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic ]? ] ] ] 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of ] ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: ], ], ], ] and ]. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.
::I disagree and I will ask for a third opinion. ] (]--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. ] ] ] 10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
:::The article has been already peer reviewed.] (]) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


::::I am going to add to this article the Albanian taskforce project. Vangjel Zhapa is Albanian and I provided above lots of sources. And I could continue. One thing at a time. ] (]--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC) :+1 for removing the link, doesn't seem standard as per GAs like ] and ] ] (]) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


* '''Oppose removal of link''' Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek, and all agree he identified as a Greek. There is simply no valid reason to remove the link. ] (]) 15:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::Unfortunately you provided nothing, apart from two nationalistic sources that are pov by sight ](] a Albanian 1960s one). This article has nothing to do with tf:Albania. ] (]) 22:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
::{{tq|Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek}} and numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? ] ] ] 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
:::Because he identified as Greek, and that's what matters. ] (]) 23:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
::::Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is if that justifies ignoring seven reliable sources contradicting the claim that he was a Greek. ] ] ] 00:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support removal of wiki-link'''. Zappas has been described as an ethnic Aromanian by multiple reliable sources, having a link to the ethnic Greeks in the lead of his article is simply not acceptable and goes against ]. ] (]) 16:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
:::::'''Oppose''': ''Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic ]?'' It appears you are wrong since Greek refers to his nationality, Zappas had Greek citizenship. I can't understand why you are mixing up ethnicity. The claim is wrong. What's most important is that bibliography agrees that Zappas was a Greek entrepreneur. His ethnicity is described in the relevant section of the article.] (]) 02:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
::::::The article ] that is linked in the opening sentence of the article is about ethnicity. It includes Greeks in Greece, Cyprus, and also people with Greek blood in countries like the USA, Germany, etc.. Meanwhile, the language section at the infobox includes only Greek as a spoken language, not Aromanian, Albanian, Slavic Macedonian and other minority languages in Greece. The linked article is about ethnicity so the discussion is about ethnicity. Zappas did have Greek citizenship and I don't dispute that. But note that several of the five biographies I linked above are from countries that are not nation states, such as Canada or India, and therefore their demonym at the opening sentence refers to nationality and not possibly to ethnicity. And it is not linked. Why make an exception here? ] ] ] 09:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)


*'''Support removal of link''', Zappas ethnic origin is a matter of dispute. The link should lead to ] instead.
::::::There are books that have been written recently, and I'll bring them to you. But don't worry if the Albanians have not been writing lots of books in the last 20 years: they have been busy building the stadiums of the second Olympic Games in Greece. Just like with Albanian money (read Vangjel Zappa's money) were built the first ones. Rather than ranting about Bonaparte, why don't you study Faveyrial? He'd be more useful to you than your usual Sakeralliu...] (]) --Sulmues 05:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
:] (]) 17:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': The problem doesn't lie in the link, but in the article ] itself. It discusses Greeks as an ethnic group and/or nation in a way which excludes many people who are Greeks today. This is unfortunately something which the editors who prefer its current state do not fully grasp for what it is - a fundamental flaw. Zappas may have genuinely considered himself Greek in the modern, post-Byzantine ''Romios'' sense and this is how most people who call themselves Greeks today acquired such an identity, hence the link should be there but he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - something which isn't true for many people who call themselves Greeks and which - even as a belief - played no role at all in them calling themselves Greeks. Hence the problem lies in the article, not in the link. In my opinion, another solution would be to change the target article to ] instead ], hence emphasize his participation in the nation-building of modern Greece and maybe call him ''Greek and Romanian'' (target article: ]) to link it with his participation in the nation-building of Romania. In any case, I think that the term ''Greek'' should link to ''something''.--] (]) 23:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
::Linking to ] is absurd and a non-starter. Are you going to go around and link every Greek person to ] instead of ]? Should we also link every Albanian from what is now Albania to ] instead of ]? Obvious nonsense. {{tq| he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans}} - I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. ] (]) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
::Adding a link to Greece was an initial proposal in the discussions previous to this RfC. However there were two different Greek states during his lifetime, the ] and the ]. He was also not born in either. Also, I think it's easier to remove an unorthodox change from a biography article that breaks the common practice than to expand the scope of a whole ethnicity article and set it apart from the rest of pages of the same topic. ] ] ] 10:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support removal of link''' per MOS:ETHNICITY.--] (]) 17:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support removal of link''' Zappas was one of many people with fluid identities at that time's Ottoman Balkans. While he ofc was primarily a Greek, his Greekness could be different from today's ethnicity concept. The article already says that he took multiple identities (Albania as the place of birth, Greece as ethnic origin and Romania as the place he made his adopted country). Furthermore, Marinov 2013 says that "'''For some nineteenth-century Orthodox intellectuals, it is difficult to say to what extent they were Greek, and to what extent Albanian—not to mention the case of the philanthropist Evangelis Zappas (1800–1865), who is also claimed by Romania'''". ] (]) 17:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support removal of link''' per nom.] (]) 00:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' the problem appears to lie in conflating two attributes, ''(ethnicity and nationality)'' but failing to make clear in text and links how one is using the term at any point. Clearly, if in the opening sentence 'Greek' refers to ethnicity, then his ethnicity is unclear and/or disputed and should not be linked to as if it were clearly and wholly 'Greek'. If the word refers to nationality and/or self-described identity, then the text fails to make that clear and the link does not go to the state he was a citizen of/chose to give his loyalty to. The average Eng WP reader is accustomed to a person's nationality being in the opening sentence as a primary defining feature, their ethnicity being later or absent commonly. I appreciate that isn't always possible in a historical and/or Balkan/Ottoman context, but many readers are going to be misled or confused if the text, the links and the justifications don't align. ] (]) 12:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
* '''Omit link'''. The subject has been described both Greek and Aromanian in reliable sources. The current text {{tq|"was a Greek patriot"}} doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to ] would indicate that Zappas was ethnic Greek, which would violate NPOV. Zappas's ethnicity is not relevant to their notability, and hence should be omitted per ]. {{sbb}} ] (]) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 17:18, 15 October 2024

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RfC

Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? Super Ψ Dro 10:20, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

For some reason there has to be a RfC over such a petty dispute. Currently, the article includes seven sources saying that Zappas may have been of Aromanian ethnicity. However, some users have insisted on keeping a link in the lead to the ethnic Greeks page for referring to Zappas. This is POV considering that the first subsection of the article should make it very clear that his ethnicity is disputed. It is also non-standard practice, I've just clicked on "random page" and gotten five biographies: Usha Uthup, Roger Clinch, Adam Simac, Juan Padilla (second baseman) and Martín Caballero. As you can see, none of these articles have a link to the article on the subject's ethnicity on the opening line. Not sure why should this article be an exception.

In my opinion, the link should be deleted. I am not asking for the word "Greek" to be removed, only the link. Zappas did have Greek national consciousness and was a citizen of the Greek state that appeared later during his lifetime. Super Ψ Dro 10:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

+1 for removing the link, doesn't seem standard as per GAs like Farhan Akhtar and Jennifer Connelly Clarysandy (talk) 12:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal of link Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek, and all agree he identified as a Greek. There is simply no valid reason to remove the link. Khirurg (talk) 15:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Greek and numerous sources refer to him as an ethnic Aromanian. Why do they not matter? Super Ψ Dro 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Because he identified as Greek, and that's what matters. Khirurg (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is if that justifies ignoring seven reliable sources contradicting the claim that he was a Greek. Super Ψ Dro 00:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support removal of wiki-link. Zappas has been described as an ethnic Aromanian by multiple reliable sources, having a link to the ethnic Greeks in the lead of his article is simply not acceptable and goes against WP:NPOV. Ahmet Q. (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Oppose: Should the lead of this article refer to Zappas exclusively as an ethnic Greek? It appears you are wrong since Greek refers to his nationality, Zappas had Greek citizenship. I can't understand why you are mixing up ethnicity. The claim is wrong. What's most important is that bibliography agrees that Zappas was a Greek entrepreneur. His ethnicity is described in the relevant section of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
The article Greeks that is linked in the opening sentence of the article is about ethnicity. It includes Greeks in Greece, Cyprus, and also people with Greek blood in countries like the USA, Germany, etc.. Meanwhile, the language section at the infobox includes only Greek as a spoken language, not Aromanian, Albanian, Slavic Macedonian and other minority languages in Greece. The linked article is about ethnicity so the discussion is about ethnicity. Zappas did have Greek citizenship and I don't dispute that. But note that several of the five biographies I linked above are from countries that are not nation states, such as Canada or India, and therefore their demonym at the opening sentence refers to nationality and not possibly to ethnicity. And it is not linked. Why make an exception here? Super Ψ Dro 09:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support removal of link, Zappas ethnic origin is a matter of dispute. The link should lead to Greek instead.
Alltan (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment: The problem doesn't lie in the link, but in the article Greeks itself. It discusses Greeks as an ethnic group and/or nation in a way which excludes many people who are Greeks today. This is unfortunately something which the editors who prefer its current state do not fully grasp for what it is - a fundamental flaw. Zappas may have genuinely considered himself Greek in the modern, post-Byzantine Romios sense and this is how most people who call themselves Greeks today acquired such an identity, hence the link should be there but he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - something which isn't true for many people who call themselves Greeks and which - even as a belief - played no role at all in them calling themselves Greeks. Hence the problem lies in the article, not in the link. In my opinion, another solution would be to change the target article to Greece instead Greeks, hence emphasize his participation in the nation-building of modern Greece and maybe call him Greek and Romanian (target article: Romania) to link it with his participation in the nation-building of Romania. In any case, I think that the term Greek should link to something.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Linking to Greece is absurd and a non-starter. Are you going to go around and link every Greek person to Greece instead of Greeks? Should we also link every Albanian from what is now Albania to Albania instead of Albanians? Obvious nonsense. he definitely didn't believe that he was a descendant of ancient Mycenaeans - I didn't think it was possible to create so extreme a straw man, but there you go. Khirurg (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Adding a link to Greece was an initial proposal in the discussions previous to this RfC. However there were two different Greek states during his lifetime, the First Hellenic Republic and the Kingdom of Greece. He was also not born in either. Also, I think it's easier to remove an unorthodox change from a biography article that breaks the common practice than to expand the scope of a whole ethnicity article and set it apart from the rest of pages of the same topic. Super Ψ Dro 10:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support removal of link per MOS:ETHNICITY.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support removal of link Zappas was one of many people with fluid identities at that time's Ottoman Balkans. While he ofc was primarily a Greek, his Greekness could be different from today's ethnicity concept. The article already says that he took multiple identities (Albania as the place of birth, Greece as ethnic origin and Romania as the place he made his adopted country). Furthermore, Marinov 2013 says that "For some nineteenth-century Orthodox intellectuals, it is difficult to say to what extent they were Greek, and to what extent Albanian—not to mention the case of the philanthropist Evangelis Zappas (1800–1865), who is also claimed by Romania". Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Support removal of link per nom.Çerçok (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment the problem appears to lie in conflating two attributes, (ethnicity and nationality) but failing to make clear in text and links how one is using the term at any point. Clearly, if in the opening sentence 'Greek' refers to ethnicity, then his ethnicity is unclear and/or disputed and should not be linked to as if it were clearly and wholly 'Greek'. If the word refers to nationality and/or self-described identity, then the text fails to make that clear and the link does not go to the state he was a citizen of/chose to give his loyalty to. The average Eng WP reader is accustomed to a person's nationality being in the opening sentence as a primary defining feature, their ethnicity being later or absent commonly. I appreciate that isn't always possible in a historical and/or Balkan/Ottoman context, but many readers are going to be misled or confused if the text, the links and the justifications don't align. Pincrete (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Omit link. The subject has been described both Greek and Aromanian in reliable sources. The current text "was a Greek patriot" doesn't refer to ethnicity. Linking to Greeks would indicate that Zappas was ethnic Greek, which would violate NPOV. Zappas's ethnicity is not relevant to their notability, and hence should be omitted per MOS:ETHNICITY. (Summoned by bot) Politrukki (talk) 15:00, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
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