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== Terrorist status ==


== Terrorist Group ==
"''The ALF was named as a "terrorist threat" by the United States' Department of Homeland Security in January 2005.''"
They have been cited as a Terrorist group along with the ELF for the over $110 million of damages, threats, intimidation, instructions on bomb making being made publicly available. Link: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-109shrg32209/html/CHRG-109shrg32209.htm
I note a large cadre of ALF apologists, constantly rewriting this page to paint this terror group in a glowing innocent light and adding in various retorts and claims of "false flag" operations, which would be laughable if this group's activities were not so serious and life endangering. Its damned shameful and no better than those who defend neo nazi groups <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Engaging in ad hominem attacks and bad faith editing (see: ]) is not a good way to build a case for your preferred version of the article, and ], either.--] (]) 20:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


Does anyone know if or when it was given similar status in the UK (or any other country), and what that status is called. That sentence on its own would fit a lot better if it gave a bit more information. --] (]) 17:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
:The ALF hasn't been listed as a terrorist threat in the UK as far as I am aware.-]<sup>]</sup> 17:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


Nah you are absolutely wrong. ALF is fully justified in all its actions ] (]) 14:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
: Under British law (], ]), no "eco-terror" groups are proscribed, but there are plenty of reliable sources descibing their "terrorist attacks in the UK" ]<font color="black">e</font>] 18:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


== Voice of ALF ==
:The ALF was listed as a terror threat long before this in the US. See http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm. Interestingly, this is before designating groups as terrorists became sexy post 9/11.--] 12:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
::Can I just point out that that sources says that they are a special interest extremist group - not a terrorist group. They go on to say some of the acts committed by the ALF (and the ELF) constitute terrorist acts, but there does not appear to be a blanket 'they are a terrorist group' at that time. Unless I am missing something of course.-]<sup>]</sup> 16:36, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


ALF is a leaderless group with no membership or staff roster, and "ALF" has traditionally been used as a "banner" or "tag" for labelling an action as being "part of ALF" or "for ALF". As such, "it" (meaning ALF) doesn't have a voice, an opinion, or a viewpoint. Only people do. I reverted several edits which had been made that changed the ALF "voice" in the article. This is incorrect. ALF doesn't promote anything; only individuals (who might associate themselves with ALF) can promote, act, speak or have an opinion. ] (]) 22:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
:The Misplaced Pages definition of terrorism is: "Terrorism, in the modern sense, is violence against civilians to achieve political or ideological objectives by creating fear". It would make perfect sence to modify the first sentence of the ALF description such as: "engage in direct '''terrorist''' action on behalf of animals". <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:If you really want to be technical, no organization has a voice, only the people do. People who share the same opinions just use organizations to help promote their opinion, but that would be too tedious to constantly explain. While some organizations are leaderless and decentralized, that doesn't mean they're voiceless. Is BLM voiceless? Was the Occupy Movement voiceless? Of course not. In the ALF's case, it has spokespeople. It has a code, a philosophy, and it even has press offices! That is not a voiceless organization. We probably wouldn't even have this article if it was truly voiceless. ] (]) 23:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
::I wasn't referring to voice as in voicebox on a human, but closer to ]. An organization with no people, one that is just a loose collection of ideas/ideals, has no "voice". The actors associated with the organization ''can'' speak in a voice. The Misplaced Pages article needs to be written to keep that clear. I presume that's why ALF and similar organizations created a "press office" so they could actually "speak" in the voice of the organization. But that's not what's happening here in those edits you had changed. Those ideas/utterances were not from a "press office". ] (]) 05:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)


== ARM content ==
::For us as editors to use a Misplaced Pages definition of a word, and then apply it to a group, would violate ]. If there is a reliable source that says that "group X is Y," we are allowed to include that, assuming it meets other requirements, such as ] and ]. BTW, most wartime military raids against cities would fall under your definition. ] (]) 18:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


I removed some content about the actions on the ARM since it wasn't about the ALF, but this was reverted because discussion was wanted due to the size of the content removed. So, any reason why this content should be on this article instead of the ARM article? ] (]) 03:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
:::It's not "my" definition it was Misplaced Pages's. There are many other definitions (see for instance: which includes definition from many countries). It's hard to see why ALF actions would not fall into them. Adding "terrorist" not therefore not change the neutrality of the article because it is a fact, given these definitions. ] (]) 19:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
::::Again, we can't just make up things, as that would violate ]. And you ignored my point that your definition would apply to many wartime raids against cities. ] (]) 19:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Wartime is obviously different, and, again, it is not "my" definition. Invoking ] seems hypocritical to me: this organisation uses the terms "terrorist actions" itself ! <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 08:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::::Why is "wartime obviously different"? Do you have a reliable source that states that the definition of "terrorism" depends on whether it's used during war or peace? ] (]) 14:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::: The war/peace time argument is highly subjective. The ALF themselves may consider to be in a war, as a legitimate faction.] (]) 15:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::I've already pointed you to numerous definitions of terrorisms but you keep a blind eye on them and hide begind Misplaced Pages rules. Why don't you try to demonstrate that ALF is not not involved in terrorist activities?] (]) 20:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::::The definition you gave me would also cover many countries who have engaged in bombing raids against civilians. In any case, we can't use a controversial definition and apply it to a group on our own, as that would be ]. Instead we need to find reliable sources who say "group X is Y," and that's what we do in this article. ] (]) 21:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::The section related to terrorist linking gives you all you need...] (]) 21:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


:It looks like a section explaining the interrelationship between ALF, ARM and JD. There is this document that might explain further why the MARS poisoning event is in the ALF article. ] (]) 04:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This group is a domestic terrorist group, I don't care how much the person who write the article sugarcoats it.--29 February 2008 Susan Nunes <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:Please read our applicable content policies: ], ], and ]. If you believe some fact is true and relevant, find a reliable source that says it, and add it to the article with the reference. ] (]) 21:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC) ::I understand that, but I'm talking about the paragraph of other events that happened later and were attributed to the ARM. ] (]) 04:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)


:::I do not know what you're referring to. I only looked at the edit history, saw what you had deleted (and another editor reverted). It's the paragraph starting "From 1983 onwards". ] (]) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This is stupid. The ALF is widely considered to be a terrorist group. One only has to look at what they do to see that. To compare them to a military organization is ridiculous because as a group of individuals they do not represent any government entity. They are an independent group of radicals who seek to force their beliefs on the rest of society through violence and acts of economic sabotage. This is terrorism. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::Ugh! I hate these ALF articles. I see I got the wrong paragraph. It's all gibberish to me. These organizations "claim" this and that, and these are all history, so ignore my MARS explanation. I don't have enough brain cells left today to devote to this. ] (]) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::It's all good. This article needs some work. So do you think the actual paragraph belongs in the ARM article instead?
::::::There's no reason a paragraph couldn't be in more than one article. I'm not inclined to read all that history just to answer whether it's ARM ''or'' ALF. It might well be both since these orgs often had a lot of crossover/overlap. ] (]) 00:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Should a paragraph on apples be used in an article about oranges? Also, if you're going to edit an article's content, you have a responsibility to at least read it. ] (]) 01:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::: ]. ] (]) 02:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::That has to do with taking breaks. It is not justification to not understand what you're editing. ] (]) 02:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)


== FBI source ==
:I agree that it is stupid to post unreferenced information to Wiki. You are welcome to define ALF or terrorism or any other terms as you like, but to post information to Wiki, it has to be referenced. At one time, the world was widely considered to be flat - but that didn't make it true. ] (]) 15:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


] is not a useful addition to the article, especially as it was included in . We could reasonably summarize the content it has on ALF and include it as a reference, but we would need to be careful about using straightforward statements that hew to the primary source.
I don't see how ALF isn't a terrorist group. The FBI and ATF have testified before Congress labeling them a terrorist group. ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 14:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:As editors above have correctly pointed out, it is a matter of having proper sourcing. Unless I've missed it, there has not been an FBI etc. statement that ALF ''is'' a terrorist organization, and we should not go beyond that in the wording we use here. I ''have'' added material from the FBI that gives a more nuanced way of saying it, and I think that it certainly does help provide balance to the page. --] (]) 17:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
:A different editor has objected to my introduction of that material. I have attempted to be sensitive to what might be that editor's concerns that the added material would make the lead needlessly lengthy and repetitious, by also deleting from the lead related material that is less direct in its characterization of the ALF, and that is also repeated lower on the page. I do think that material from the FBI, characterizing the FBI's view of the relationship between ALF and what the FBI terms "terrorists," is highly appropriate to the lead, and valuable for NPOV. --] (]) 17:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
::Should this be put into a vote or something? It seems to me that an editor shouldn't just have final say in this because his or her opinions don't match that of the FBI. Should we not call Al-Qaeda a terrorist organization because some people don't believe they are and it is not NPOV? ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 12:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::Thank you for that. Please see also the section about the FBI quote at the bottom of this talk page. The way that we handle this isn't exactly through a vote as such, but as described at ]. I hope that you and other editors will weigh in constructively to help me with this. If need be, there is also ]. --] (]) 18:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
::::You hope people will help '''you''' out, not the article? You have a nerve. This is trolling, pure and simple. You want to change that the ALF has been listed as a domestic terrorist threat by the Dept of Homeland Security (which I added), and insert instead that some asst deputy director of the counter-terrorist dept of the FBI said in a speech that they're vandals who harass the business community . Yet you paint ME as the person wanting to keep the terrorist allegation out of the lead? This is a stable lead. It is comprehensive. It includes the most important criticism, and it is FAR more important that they've been listed by Homeland Security. You have zero interest in, or knowledge of, animal rights. The only reason you're editing here and at the other AR articles is to troll me. Please grow up. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 22:01, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::] (early January). ]. --] (]) 22:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


As it is, the image displayed is entirely unhelpful, and it's not accurate to say (as the caption currently does), that the FBI "associates the ALF with domestic terrorism", as the document itself is heavily hedged and never makes so broad a claim. Pinging {{u|Tryptofish}}, who recently reverted my removal. ] (] / ]) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Definition: '''Using violence against civilians to influence governmental process'''. Doesn't fit the definition of ALF since they don't attack civilians with the purpose of hurting the government. But since they were labeled as terrorists by some organization, it's fair to mention that in the article. ] (]) 17:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
:Not a big deal to me, so I self-reverted. --] (]) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


== Shouldn't we mention that at least one of these firebombings was actually an undercover cop ==
== FBI quote in lead ==


Seems relevant. ] (]) 03:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
I have recently attempted to make an edit to the lead, providing a referenced quote from the F.B.I. about the F.B.I.'s view of the alleged terrorist status of the A.L.F. Another editor has objected to and reverted my edit, so I would like to try to explain my thinking here. I began my explanation in the ], above. I've also looked in this talk for the other editor's explanation, and either did not find it yet or missed it. I am not sure whether I understand that editor's reasoning, because the accompanying edit summaries centered upon false and bizarre personal attacks against me, rather than on the content of the edits. I began by noticing an ongoing history of mostly anonymous complaints in this talk that the page should call ALF terrorists, and responses by other editors (correct, in my opinion) that any such characterization needs to be sourced. I then found, on reading about it, that there appears not to be any sourced governmental claim that ALF ''is'' a terrorist organization, but, rather, that more nuanced language has been used. I found source, and attempted to add it to the lead. I believe that it is an accurate and verifiable representation of what U.S. law enforcement actually says on the matter, and highly relevant to the page. Previously, the lead has contained two other sources about this matter: one from the SPLC, and the other from Homeland Security. Both of those sources are also repeated lower on the page. In addition, the SPLC source centers more on the complaint that right-wing groups are not monitored as closely as groups such as ALF, while the Homeland Security document is identified as a draft, rather than final, and therefore each seems to me to be a little weak for inclusion in this lead. In contrast, the F.B.I. source appears to me to be very valuable, and not otherwise reported on the page. At first, I added the F.B.I. material without deleting the rest, because I was hesitant to delete other editors' work. Subsequently, I thought that, perhaps, the other editor objected, reasonably I think, to having multiple similar quotes, so I attempted to add the F.B.I material while deleting the others, but that version also has been reverted. I do believe that the page would be improved by restoring my last edit. --] (]) 18:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
:We would need a source (reference). --] (]) 22:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
:I want to add a few more points. As to the lead being "stable," I think that depends upon consensus, which can evolve over time, and discussion. It is unclear to me what other editors think about how many sources there should be in the lead, because it seems that comments about that have been changing, but anything from one to three here would be fine with me. I don't have an issue about the number, but rather, about the quality and relevance. As for whether Homeland Security calls ALF a "terrorist group" or a "terrorist threat," we should report their choice of words correctly, but otherwise I do not think that affects the usefulness of that source to the lead. I think that Homeland Security and the FBI are both equally appropriate as sources for this purpose, and I have no objection to including them both. But I think that there is still a question about why the Homeland Security source cited, dating from 2005, is a "draft planning document." Surely it would be better to cite a final document, if it is available, and if it goes beyond "vandalism," then all the better. I still think the SPLC source is a little weak for the lead, because it does not reflect government positions, and is not principally about ALF. As for the FBI reference, I think the rank of its author is irrelevant, because the material is sourced from the FBI's official website, where it is clearly presented as representing the position of the Bureau as a whole. As for the fact that the FBI quote makes reference to the business community, well, that is what they say and we should report it, not pass judgment on it. I also think the quote is valuable, because it demonstrates the nuanced wording used, and because it balances the Ron Coronado quote at the start of the paragraph. --] (]) 15:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
::Some days have passed without further comment, so I hope that my explanations above may perhaps have satisfied the concerns that had been raised. I would like to suggest that the FBI quote be returned to the lead, without, for the time being, deleting any material that is there now. Recognizing that editors may still wish to comment, however, I will wait a bit longer before making the edit. --] (]) 18:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

:::I object. The Dept of Homeland Security designation of "domestic terrorist threat" is far stronger and is official. It has been in the lead for a long time. There is no valid reason to remove it in order to replace it with a far weaker statement. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 18:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
::::Thank you for replying. As I said, there is no need to remove the Homeland Security part (or the SPLC, for that matter). The Homeland Security source is described as a "draft planning document." Is a final document available for citing? (And the FBI statement is far from weak.) --] (]) 18:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
::::Having asked about whether there's a final document, I figured I should look for it myself. As far as I can tell, no such source has been made public, apparently because Homeland Security does not release threat lists to the public, as a matter of policy. In line with the comment above that the source now cited is "official," I thought about writing the lead to indicate that it is official , but concluded that doing so would be misleading . The fact that it would be misleading points up the weakness of that source for the purposes of this page. The source cited is a CQ news piece (ref 9 on the page now), primarily analyzing why right-wing groups were ''not'' included in a "draft planning document," rather than why ALF ''was''. The source cited for the SPLC (ref 8 on the page now) similarly focuses on why the government did not pay more attention to right-wing groups. In contrast, the FBI source that I have recommended (ref 10 ) is an official statement from U.S. government law enforcement, addressed specifically to their view of ALF. Truly, that seems to me to be more relevant to the lead of this page, although I have no objection to adding it while retaining the material that is already there. (By the way, when I have referred in this talk to sources as being "strong" or "weak," I did not mean strong in their condemnation, etc., but rather to their usefulness to this page. I'm continuing to comment on this because I truly believe the page would be made better by adding the FBI material.) --] (]) 17:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

:::::The above is too long to read. The Homeland Security designation is the one that needs to be mentioned in the lead. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 17:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
:FBI is part of Homeland Security now, so I agree with Slimvirgin on this. Also, ALF is international, so adding another US reference makes the lead/article a bit US-centric. I haven't reread the article recently but relevant FBI quotes could be included elsewhere.] (]) 18:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you Bob for some very good observations. The idea of moving something down lower on the page is an interesting one, and may be a good way of "breaking the logjam," as it were. But I do want to correct one point: the FBI is ''not'' part of Homeland Security. They are independent organizations. To check the facts, please see from the DHS website, which does not show the FBI as part of the department, as well as ] which says that it was decided to not incorporate FBI into DHS, and ] which also makes clear in the lead that they are separate. --] (]) 19:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:::With respect to the logic of the DHS draft document being such a "strong" source, please note the edit summaries in , and . (By the way, I do not feel strongly either way about the far-left politics category. Although ALF hardly seems far-right, I take the point that they are not necessarily political in the traditional sense either way.) --] (]) 18:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

== FBI quote ==

Should a source providing the FBI's position on the ALF be added to the lead? Should the current Dept of Homeland Security and SPLC opinions remain? Please read ]. --] (]) 23:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


Hi. Seeing how there is already a US quote from Homeland Security, and the FBI comment is already in the body text... given that the ALF was originally a UK phenomenon, and is still primarily a UK phenomenon, then instead of locating another US quote, if supplementary quotes are necessary in the lede to show just how 'bad' they are, then I would suggest a UK source condemning them should be used instead. Mind you, saying the ALF are the worst terrorist threat facing the country is pretty bizarre - but then I guess 'might kill somebody one day' is much 'worse' than Muslims blowing up 50 people on trains and buses. ] (]) 15:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:Thank you Mish for your help. If I may, though, I want to correct that it is the DHS quote that is repeated lower on the page (as is the SPLC quote, also from the U.S), not the FBI one. (And "showing how 'bad' they are" are your words, not mine.) A question not yet answered, but which could be very helpful to the matter at hand: how do editors feel the FBI quote compares, in value for the page, with the existing ones from DHS and SPLC? --] (]) 17:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
::That's OK. A few points. I do think a UK security quote is needed in the lede, given the focus on the US DHS & SPLC quotes. Problem is the UK quote is from 1998, and since the launch of an indigenous Muslim terrorist campaign no longer relevant (although given the atrocities carried out by the IRA before that, even then it sounds questionable). As for the SPLC quote, then out of the context of the SPLC quote further on it does seem an unbalanced representation of their statement, one which qualification through using the full sentence might go some way to addess "with frankly terroristic tactics similar to those of anti-abortion extremists." That makes it clearer what SPLC meant, which when unpacked with the comments about the DHS focus on this rather than white supremacist groups makes the context even clearer. I am looking for something more current from the UK, but it looks like there is little this century that makes them out to be as big a threat as the 1998 quote makes out. Between DHS and FBI comment in the lede, I would opt for the DHS one, as the FBI one discusses a range of groups, including ALF & ELF.(insert comment: by drawing a conclusion about the level threat posed by an aggregation of groups to a single group is synthetic, and fallacious, as it is form of arguing from the general to particular 'these groups together represent the biggest threat, therefore this one group represents the biggest threat' no it doesn't, it is part of that threat. Whereas the DHS cite is clearer - it is one group that has been added to a list of terrorist groups) ] (]) 19:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''Reply to RFC''' The FBI is America's premier national law enforcement agency; its position is quite relevant and belongs in the lead. That's no reason to remove the others, so long as the lead stays reasonably compact. <strong>]</strong>] 21:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
*'''Reply to RFC''' FBI + DHS + SPLC is three different US organizations, which places too much emphasis and detail on one country's position on the ALF too high in the article. ] (]) 01:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


'''Closing the RfC.''' I think the RfC has run for a long enough time, and I'm removing the tag for the bot. I thank the editors who took the time to respond. It seems to me that there is a trend of opinion that having three U.S.-based sources in the lead would be too many. It also seems to me that there is no consensus as to which one or two sources should be used. Absent a consensus for changing the lead, I am going to leave the lead as it is. If other editors decide to revisit the issue in the future, I would welcome it.

As some editors have suggested, I will instead add the FBI material lower on the page, in the "Listing as a domestic terrorist group" section. While there, I will also try to fix some other POV issues in that section. I was pleased (and a little amused) to see similar FBI sourcing to the page on ].

That said, I still think that the best interests of the page are not served by this outcome. The SPLC cite in the lead is really from a non-governmental source complaining that ''other'' groups were ''not'' named as terrorists. It would be better to remove the SPLC, which is repeated lower on the page, and replace it with the FBI. In its present form, the page is not GA, much less FA. --] (]) 20:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

== Animal Liberation Front and the far-left politics ==

It is not disputed that DHS has classified ALF as a far-left political organization, and I am even opened to accept that this fact can be considered notable enough to be included in the article. This would still be a case of describing such classification, not assume it as it was done in the category section. DHS is not a reliable source for ideological classifications (?!) Even a scholar source, such as the department of political science of a university, would raise issues of bias in this matter. I think this is a clear case of (]). This has got nothing to do with "DHS being a good and trustworthy organization or not". ] (]) 18:56, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
:That's reasonable. I have no real quarrel about the category. My concern lies more with sourcing in the lead, and you have, indirectly, substantiated a point I have been making about that. --] (]) 19:03, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
::After reading the arguments, I think the category far-left politics should stand. I think you should pick either the fbi or the dhs source for the lead. ]<sup>]|]</sup> 05:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
My impression has been they are anarchistic, but I am going back to the time when I first became aware of them when I lived in Bristol thirty years ago. I've not seen much since that suggests otherwise. The alleged structure sounds more anarchistic than far-left. Finding sources to substantiate that might not be so easy. If you have a reliable source that describes them as 'far left', then that does not justify describing them as such, but that they are described that way by XYZ. ] (]) 15:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:::This book, Terrorists or freedom fighters? By Steven Best & Anthony J. Nocella, published in 2004, says this on p.25 "The structure and philosophy of the ALF thereby has some key affinities with anarchism and radical feminism." then go on to point out the strict code of non-violence, etc. So, the desgnation of "far-left" is not actually born out by independent sources. ] (]) 19:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
::::I've never seen the ALF described as "far-left" by a scholarly source, or self-described that way. It would be an odd thing to say, given that it's a leaderless resistance. No one knows who makes up the ALF's cells, because they operate anonymously all over the world with no central leadership. It's therefore not possible to say that they're "far-left," or anything else. So far as anyone can tell, they represent a wide variety of political opinion. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 19:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:I agree with SlimVirgin. It is unnecessarily confusing to try to attribute a political point of view to a leaderless group which has never espoused a traditional political ideology normally associated with left or right. Maybe instead of far-left, we could call them far-out - it would make as much sense. ] (]) 20:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
::The "far-out" made me laugh! I have to agree too, actually. They do seem more anarchistic than any particular place on the left-right scale. --] (]) 20:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

== Image questions ==

*Regarding , why is that image needed here? Wouldn't it make better sense to place it at ] instead?
*Regarding , it looks like some images of ALF supporters were restored, which makes good sense, but some images of the aftermath of alleged ALF actions were not. Does that skew the POV of the page? --] (]) 22:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

:The aftermath images were fair use and were therefore deleted by other admins. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 01:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

:You're welcome to re-upload them; they are . You might be able to claim fair use, but you'd probably need to know who owned them, and if they're recent journalists' images, fair use is unlikely to be accepted. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 06:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you for explaining the image history, which was very helpful. Also, thank you for adjusting the image size of the image mentioned in my first bullet point. --] (]) 16:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

==Editing==
I'm half-thinking again of trying to get this up to FA standard; not necessarily to submit it, but so that it could be submitted in theory. So I may start going through it to tighten the writing, or add anything obvious that's missing, without making it too long. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 23:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:Good. Given the failed GA review, archived in talk from October 2007, it will be necessary to address the POV concerns that were raised then. --] (]) 23:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
::There is very little relationship between a GA reviewer and what happens at FA. If you have POV concerns, please list them, bearing in mind that FA standards are high, and articles must be truly neutral -- meaning ''disinterested'' -- not swinging back and forth from one POV to another. <font color="green">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="pink">]</font></sup></small> 23:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I do think the GA reviewer did a good job, and I'm all in favor of high standards. --] (]) 14:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

==External links - too many links, and unbalanced==
This section needs to be trimmed and show balance of POV.

Nevermind that the title of the section is "Further Reading", it is still an ] section. The section shows bias. The three books and two films listed are sympathetic to the cause of ALF, and no books or films critical of ALF are presented. The section of web links is also mostly sympathetic. There are too many links here as well. One quick way to trim this section is to only link to ALF once - currently the press office, the home page, and a few miscellaneous pages are all presented individually. ] (])
:Agree that the ALF links could be consolidated and forum links dumped. If well researched books or films critical of ALF are available then I see no problem adding those. Since this topic is quite controversial, I think that a slight excess of ELs may be preferable to a deficit. While the FBI links and some others express an "official" POV, there may be many other anti-ALF refs that are just conservative commentary such as Rush Limbaugh which should be excluded. Thanks for discussing this prior to changing as there may well be other opinions which should be considered. ] (]) 13:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
::I won't edit this article. It's too much drama.
::re: excluding random commentary like Limbaugh - I bet there are thousands of such links, and I advocate including ''none'' of them as external links. ] (])
:::I could not help but to notice your comment about "too much drama." Obviously, I understand what you mean. But I think it's very sad, and ultimately hurtful to Misplaced Pages, if editors are pushed out of editing certain subject areas because of the bad behavior of other editors who try to own those subject areas. I think the best solution is to keep on editing, to do so within policy at all times (no matter what those other editors do), and not to give in to bullies. --] (]) 19:59, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Thanks Trypto, for the encouragement. If you see my work on China issues, where I get attacked both sides for trying to stick to established agreements, you'd see I'm not afraid of being involved in drama and flaming issues. In this case, I just do not have the time right now to take a deep look at what is there, discuss trimming and additions, etc. You can invite me back if there is something to see or comment on. ] (])
:::::Thanks. Good luck. --] (]) 19:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

== POV ==
Just passing through, but my general impression from the article's first paragraph is that it's still fairly biased from a leftist/ALF supporter's point of view. Especially the romanticized comparison to the underground railroad. While there may be similarities, the way the comparison is brought about it done in such a way as to give ALF members an image akin to that of Harriet Tubman. Anyway, good luck to those still trying to fix that issue. ] (]) 05:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
:Thank you, I agree with you. For "those still trying to fix that issue", it gets kind of lonely. Too bad so many editors just pass through. --] (]) 16:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
::I think that the way that it is phrased, in the lede, helps present ALF's view of itself. The subject of an article should be allowed to present their definition of who they are and what they do. It doesn't have to present it as fact or be refuted right there. The sentence says that "ALF volunteers see themselves..." Obviously, this perception isn't shared by all, which comes out in the article when other sources detail how they see ALF volunteers. The third ph of the lede addresses terrorism and makes it clear that not everyone agrees with ALF's self-assessment. I know that any changes to this article are hotly debated, but I think in this case, the existing text is not egregious. ] (]) 14:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
:::Those are valid points, Bob, and the reason that I did not act on making an edit, even though I thought hard about it. I think a case could be made for moving it out of the lead and into the main text, because the lead still does a pretty good job of presenting ALF's self-view without it, so I wonder what other editors would think about that? --] (]) 16:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

==England==

This article is too much about England. You'd think the Animal Liberation Front is doing almost nothing anywhere else in the world. The Uk centric tone renders the article somewhat ridiculous. ] (]) 21:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


this article is laughably pov. it needs to be completely rewritten. ] (]) 23:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

==What is ALF Notable For?==
1. Trespassing
2. Breaking and Entering
3. Grafitti
4. Vandalism
5. Theft
6. Stalking
7. Harrassment
8. Arson
9. Being listed as employing terrorist methods
10. Being listed as a domestic terrorist organization

I wonder why this article does not seem to concentrate on this, but is pretty much a puff piece. "Underground railroad"? Please. Why are there images of animal research? I don't think ALF performs any animal research. I will be adding some reality to this article as time permits.] (]) 05:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
:Thank you! I'm delighted not to be alone in arguing for this any more. It's important that any changes be well-sourced, and not go too far the ''other'' way, and I'm happy to back you up. --] (]) 18:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that just clearly differentiating what ALF says it is and what it actually does will be a step in the right direction.] (]) 22:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

==40 Countries?==
What is this:

^ a b ALF cells are known to be active in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Belarus, Brazil, Canada, Canary Islands, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Holland, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Malaysia, Malta, Mexico, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela. See "Diary of Actions": 1 & 2, Bite Back, February 21, 2009.

I could not find this information at either of the provided websites. Is the idea that the info is in the Feb. 21 issue of Bite Back? Maybe someone just looked at the alleged direct actions and listed the countries, or was there an actual listing by Bite Back?] (]) 05:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In addition, is Bite Back a reliable source for what ALF does? It seems as though anybody could send in a claim of "direct action" and get a cite in BB.] (]) 22:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I read through the Bite Back lists that were referenced for two statements in the article about 40+ countries where ALF operates. Nowhere in the free versions of the magazines does it say that the list is of ALF actions, only that they are "direct actions". Someone apparently did a little OR and made a list of the countries that were represented in these lists. They say nothing about "clandestine cells" or "need to know" so I have taken these out of the appropriate sections. In addition, it seems as though these lists are not vetted or verified in any way. In other words, anybody can send in a contribution, whether it actually happened or not. If we are to give ALF "credit" for these acts, then we need some verification from independent sources that the acts were either claimed or shown to be carried out by ALF.] (]) 23:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

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Toolbox

Terrorist Group

They have been cited as a Terrorist group along with the ELF for the over $110 million of damages, threats, intimidation, instructions on bomb making being made publicly available. Link: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-109shrg32209/html/CHRG-109shrg32209.htm I note a large cadre of ALF apologists, constantly rewriting this page to paint this terror group in a glowing innocent light and adding in various retorts and claims of "false flag" operations, which would be laughable if this group's activities were not so serious and life endangering. Its damned shameful and no better than those who defend neo nazi groups — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.56.14 (talk) 20:19, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Engaging in ad hominem attacks and bad faith editing (see: WP:GF) is not a good way to build a case for your preferred version of the article, and ridiculous comparisons to neo-Nazis probably won't help, either.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


Nah you are absolutely wrong. ALF is fully justified in all its actions RJS001 (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Voice of ALF

ALF is a leaderless group with no membership or staff roster, and "ALF" has traditionally been used as a "banner" or "tag" for labelling an action as being "part of ALF" or "for ALF". As such, "it" (meaning ALF) doesn't have a voice, an opinion, or a viewpoint. Only people do. I reverted several edits which had been made that changed the ALF "voice" in the article. This is incorrect. ALF doesn't promote anything; only individuals (who might associate themselves with ALF) can promote, act, speak or have an opinion. Normal Op (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

If you really want to be technical, no organization has a voice, only the people do. People who share the same opinions just use organizations to help promote their opinion, but that would be too tedious to constantly explain. While some organizations are leaderless and decentralized, that doesn't mean they're voiceless. Is BLM voiceless? Was the Occupy Movement voiceless? Of course not. In the ALF's case, it has spokespeople. It has a code, a philosophy, and it even has press offices! That is not a voiceless organization. We probably wouldn't even have this article if it was truly voiceless. Mariolovr (talk) 23:45, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to voice as in voicebox on a human, but closer to Writer's voice. An organization with no people, one that is just a loose collection of ideas/ideals, has no "voice". The actors associated with the organization can speak in a voice. The Misplaced Pages article needs to be written to keep that clear. I presume that's why ALF and similar organizations created a "press office" so they could actually "speak" in the voice of the organization. But that's not what's happening here in those edits you had changed. Those ideas/utterances were not from a "press office". Normal Op (talk) 05:16, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

ARM content

I removed some content about the actions on the ARM since it wasn't about the ALF, but this was reverted because discussion was wanted due to the size of the content removed. So, any reason why this content should be on this article instead of the ARM article? Mariolovr (talk) 03:23, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

It looks like a section explaining the interrelationship between ALF, ARM and JD. There is this document that might explain further why the MARS poisoning event is in the ALF article. Normal Op (talk) 04:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I understand that, but I'm talking about the paragraph of other events that happened later and were attributed to the ARM. Mariolovr (talk) 04:58, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
I do not know what you're referring to. I only looked at the edit history, saw what you had deleted (and another editor reverted). It's the paragraph starting "From 1983 onwards". Normal Op (talk) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Ugh! I hate these ALF articles. I see I got the wrong paragraph. It's all gibberish to me. These organizations "claim" this and that, and these are all history, so ignore my MARS explanation. I don't have enough brain cells left today to devote to this. Normal Op (talk) 05:06, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
It's all good. This article needs some work. So do you think the actual paragraph belongs in the ARM article instead?
There's no reason a paragraph couldn't be in more than one article. I'm not inclined to read all that history just to answer whether it's ARM or ALF. It might well be both since these orgs often had a lot of crossover/overlap. Normal Op (talk) 00:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Should a paragraph on apples be used in an article about oranges? Also, if you're going to edit an article's content, you have a responsibility to at least read it. Mariolovr (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. Normal Op (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
That has to do with taking breaks. It is not justification to not understand what you're editing. Mariolovr (talk) 02:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

FBI source

File:Domestic Terrorism Symbols Guide Part 01.pdf is not a useful addition to the article, especially as it was included in this edit. We could reasonably summarize the content it has on ALF and include it as a reference, but we would need to be careful about using straightforward statements that hew to the primary source.

As it is, the image displayed is entirely unhelpful, and it's not accurate to say (as the caption currently does), that the FBI "associates the ALF with domestic terrorism", as the document itself is heavily hedged and never makes so broad a claim. Pinging Tryptofish, who recently reverted my removal. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:00, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a big deal to me, so I self-reverted. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't we mention that at least one of these firebombings was actually an undercover cop

Seems relevant. 2604:3D09:D78:1000:7CB2:BC52:EF01:E8DD (talk) 03:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

We would need a source (reference). --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
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