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Revision as of 15:13, 5 March 2010 view sourceAmorymeltzer (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Interface administrators, Oversighters, Administrators63,401 edits Viridae admonished: Enacting motion← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:56, 24 December 2024 view source Cabayi (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators142,159 edits Motion 2: WMF staff support: opp 
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{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions/Header}} {{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Motions/Header}}
== Arbitrator workflow motions ==
{{Shortcut|WP:A/R/M}}
=== Workflow motions: Arbitrator discussion ===
{{clear}}
* I am proposing these three motions for discussion, community input, and a vote. Each seeks to improve ArbCom's functioning by providing for the performance of basic administrative responsibilities that sometimes go neglected, which, in my opinion, if successful, would significantly improve ArbCom's overall capacity. {{pb}} '''Motivation:''' We've known about the need for improvements to our workflow and capacity for some years now{{snd}}I wrote about some of these suggestions in my ]. It's a regular occurrence that someone will email in with a request or information and, because of the press of other work and because nobody is responsible for tracking and following up on the thread, we will let the thread drop without even realizing it and without deciding that no action is needed. We can each probably name a number of times this has happened, but one recent public example of adverse consequences from such a blunder was highlighted in the ], which was partially caused by our failure to address a private request that had been submitted to us months earlier. {{pb}} '''Previous efforts:''' We've experimented with a number of ''technological'' solutions to this problem during my four years on the Committee, including: (a) tracking matters on a Trello board or on a private Phabricator space; (b) tracking threads in Google Groups with tags; (c) requesting the development of custom technical tools; (d) ]; and (e) tracking appeals more carefully on arbwiki. Some of these attempts have been moderately successful, or showed promise for a time before stalling, but none of them have fully and fundamentally addressed this dropping-balls issue, which has persisted, and which in my opinion requires a human solution rather than just a technological solution. {{pb}} '''Rationale:''' The work we need done as framed below (e.g. bumping email threads) isn't fundamentally difficult or sensitive, but it's essential, and it's structurally hard for an active arbitrator to be responsible for doing it. For example, I could never bring myself to bump/nag others to opine on matters that I hadn't done my best to resolve yet myself. But actually doing the research to substantively opine on an old thread (especially as the first arb) can take ''hours'' of work, and I'm more likely to forget about it before I have the time to resolve it, and then it'll get lost in the shuffle. So it's best to somewhat decouple the tracking/clerical function from the substantive arb-ing work. {{pb}} '''Other efforts:''' There is one more technological solution for which there was interest among arbitrators, which was to get a CRM/ticketing system{{snd}}basically, VRTS but hopefully better. I think this could help and would layer well with any of the other options, but there are some open questions (e.g., which one to get, how to pay for it, whether we can get all arbs to adopt it), and I don't think that that alone would address this problem (see similar attempts discussed above), so I think we should move ahead with one of these three motions now and adopt a ticketing system with whichever of the other motions we end up going with. {{pb}} These three motions are the result of substantial internal workshopping, and have been variously discussed (as relevant) with the functionaries, the clerks, and the Wikimedia Foundation (on a call in November). Before that, we held an ideation session on workflow improvements with the Foundation in July and have had informal discussions for a number of years. I deeply appreciate the effort and input that has gone into these motions from the entire committee and from the clerks and functionaries, and hope we can now pass one of them. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
**One other thing I forgot to suggest—I'd be glad to write motions 1 or 2 up as a trial if any arb prefers, perhaps for 6-12 months, after which the motion could be automatically repealed unless the committee takes further action by motion to permanently continue the motion. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 23:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Workflow motions: Clerk notes ===
== Herostratus / Viridae ==
:''This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).''


==== Workflow motions: Implementation notes ====
=== Background ===
{{ARCAImplNotes
|updated = an automatic check at {{#time:H:i, j F Y|{{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}}}} (UTC)
|motions =
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1: Correspondence clerks |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->|notes=One support vote contingent on 1.4 passing}}
<!--{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries |active = 10 }} -->
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener" |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant" |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial) |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 2: WMF staff support |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
{{ARCAImplNotes/Motion/Automatic|page=ARM|pattern=%c#.-UTC|name = Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks |active = 10 <!--|support = |oppose = |abstain = -->}}
}}


=== Motion 1: Correspondence clerks ===
On February 10, administrator {{admin|Herostratus}} edited his userpage to this revision: . While the content of this page was intended as a joke, it was misinterpreted by several users as an indication that Herostratus was no longer in control of his account. On February 24, administrator {{admin|Viridae}} blocked Herostratus under this assumption without making effort to contact Herostratus; in an email to the Committee, Viridae disclosed that the block was also based on unfounded allegations that had been laid against Herostratus. The incident was later brought to ] (), when Viridae noticed Herostratus was an administrator due to Herostratus's self-unblocking.
; Nine-month trial
{{ivmbox|1=
The ] are amended by adding the following section for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it:
<blockquote>
; Correspondence clerks
The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. Correspondence clerks must meet the Wikimedia Foundation's ] and sign the Foundation's non-public information ].


Correspondence clerks shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing ] assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.
=== Motions ===


The specific responsibilities of correspondence clerks shall include:
{{ACMajority|active=12|inactive=3|recused=1}}
* Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
* Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
* Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
* Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
* Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.


The remit of correspondence clerks shall ''not'' include:
* ] is currently inactive, but is voting on these motions and is shown as active here.
* Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
* ] has noted that he will recuse on these motions.
* Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.


To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current ''arbcom-en'' mailing list shall be renamed to ''arbcom-en-internal'', which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new ''arbcom-en'' email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new ''arbcom-en'' list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.
==== Herostratus strongly admonished ====


The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks.
1) For failing to adhere to the standard of decorum expected of administrators, and for unblocking himself in direct contravention of blocking policy, Herostratus is strongly admonished.


All correspondence clerks shall hold concurrent appointments as arbitration clerks and shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.
'''Enacted''' ~ <font color="#FF0099">Amory</font><font color="#555555"><small> ''(] • ] • ])''</small></font> 15:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
</blockquote>
}}
<!-- change the number depending on active count -->
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support
# This is my first choice and falls within ArbCom's community-granted authority to {{tqq|1=approve and remove access to mailing lists maintained by the Arbitration Committee}}<ref>{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Scope_and_responsibilities}}</ref> and to {{tqq|1=designate individuals for particular tasks or roles}} and {{tqq|1=maintain a panel of clerks to assist with the smooth running of its functions}}.<ref>{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Procedures_and_roles}}</ref> {{pb}} Currently, we have ] to help with on-wiki work, but most of ArbCom's workload is private (on ''arbcom-en''), and our clerks have no ability to help with that because they can't access any of ArbCom's non-public work. It has always seemed strange to me to have clerks for on-wiki work, but not for the bulk of the work which is off-wiki (and which has always needed more coordination help). {{pb}} When consulting the functionaries, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that four functionaries (including three former arbitrators) expressed interest in volunteering for this role. This would be lower-intensity than serving as an arbitrator, but still essential to the functioning of the committee. We already have a number of ex-arbs on the clerks-l mailing list to advise and assist, and this seems like a natural extension of that function. The Stewards have a ], although ArbCom correspondence clerks would be a higher-trust position (functionary-level appointments only). {{pb}} I see this as the strongest option because the structure is familiar (analogous to our existing clerks, but for off-wiki business), because we have trusted functionaries and former arbs interested who could well discharge these responsibilities, and because I think we would benefit from separating the administrative responsibility from the substantive responsibility. The cons I see are that volunteer correspondence clerks might be less reliable than paid staff and that we'd be adding one or two (ish) people to the arbcom-en list. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
# Contingent on 1.4 passing. This option was not my first choice, and I'm inclined to try having a coordinating Arb first, if we can get a volunteer/set of volunteers. Given that the new term should infuse the Committee with more life and vigor, we may find a coordinating Arb, or another solution. But I think we should put this in our toolbox for the moment. This doesn't force us to appoint someone, just gives us the ability and outlines the position. ] <sup>]</sup>] 05:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose
# I don't think we should extend access to the mailing list and the private information it contains beyond what is absolutely necessary. I understand the reasoning behind former arbitrators in such a role as they previously had such access, but people emailing the Arbitration Committee should have confidence that private information is kept ] and that only the current arbitrators evaluating and making decisions based on that private information have ongoing access to it. - ] (]) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
# Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. ] (]) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
# This is limited to former arbitrators for good reasons, most of them privacy-related. But the same concerns that led to this proposal being limited to former arbitrators are also arguments against doing this at all. ] (]) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

;Abstain
#

<!--
;Arbitrator discussion
-->
==== Motion 1: Arbitrator views and discussions ====
*I'd be glad changing this to only appoint former arbs, if that would tip anyone's votes. Currently, it's written as "from among the ] (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee)" for flexibility if needed, but I imagine we would only really appoint former arbs if available, except under unusual circumstances, because they understand how the mailing list discussions go and have previously been elected to handle the same private info. I am also open to calling it something other than "correspondence clerk"; that just seemed like a descriptive title. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*::@]: I have changed the motion to make only former arbs eligible. If anyone preferred broader (all funct) eligibility, I've added an alternative motion 1.1 below, which if any arb does prefer it, they should uncollapse and vote for it. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 02:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
*I also think that if we adopt this we should choose a better name. I know ] meant this suggestion as a bit of a joke, but I actually think he was on the money when he suggested "]." I like "]" even more, which I believe he also suggested. They capture the sort of whimsical Misplaced Pages charm evoked by titles like ] while still being descriptive, and not easily confused for a traditional clerk. ] <sup>]</sup>] 03:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Whimsy is important -- ] <sup>]</sup> 08:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
* {{re|CaptainEek|Guerillero}} Per the above discussion points, I have (a) proposed two alternative names below that were workshopped among some arbs ("scrivener" on the more whimsical side and "coordination assistant" on the less whimsical side; see motions 1.2a and 1.2b), and (b) made this motion a nine-month trial, after which time the section is automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to extend it. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
* I plan on supporting motion 1 over anything else. I've spent a week just getting onto all the platforms, and I'm already kind of shocked that this is how we do things. Not only is there a lot to keep track of, all of the information moves unintuitively between different places in a way that makes it very difficult to keep up unless you're actively plugged in enough to be on top of the ball – which I don't think anyone can be all the time. I just don't think a coordinating arb is sufficient: we need someone who can keep us on track without having to handle all of the standard work of reviewing evidence, deliberating, and making an informed decision. (Better-organized tech would also be great, but I'd need to spend a lot more time thinking about how it could be redone.) I understand the privacy concerns, but I don't think this represents a significant breach of confidentiality: people care more whether their report gets handled properly than whether it goes before 15 trusted people or 16. So, I'll be voting in favor of motion 1, and maybe motion 3 will be a distant second. ] (] • she/her) 21:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
{{reflist-talk}}

====Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries ====
{{hat|1=If any arbitrator prefers this way, unhat this motion and vote for it.}}
{{ivmbox|1=If motion 1 passes, replace the text {{tqq|1=The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee.}} with the text {{tqq|1=The Arbitration Committee may appoint, from among the ] (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee), one or more users to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee.}}.}}
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}


;Support ;Support
#
# Per my rationale under 1.1. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 03:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

# Second choice. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 03:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 03:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# I am not convinced that it is essential that we adopt a motion in this matter, but this one seems reasonable and I can support it. ] (]) 04:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Please exercise more care in the future. - ] 04:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# The unblocking was inappropriate. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 07:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
#Between the inappropriate humor that fooled several people and the self-unblock both. I'd prefer something stronger, but this is third choice. ] (]) 08:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
#I think everyone has probably already gotten the point - little more care with humor and please ask someone else to unblock you. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# ] (]) 23:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# ] (]) 23:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
;Oppose ;Oppose
# #


;Abstain ;Abstain
# #


<!--
==== Herostratus desysopped ====
;Arbitrator discussion
-->


{{hab}}
1.1) For unblocking himself in direct contravention of blocking policy, Herostratus is desysopped. He may apply for reinstatement of the tools through Requests for Adminship or through request to the Committee.


==== Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener" ====
{{ivmbox|1=If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "scriveners".}}
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support ;Support
#Nicely whimsical, and not as likely to be confusing as correspondence clerk. ] <sup>]</sup>] 04:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
# First choice. "Thou shalt not unblock thyself" is the cardinal rule of adminship, and this is the standard response. I am also less than comfortable with Herostratus believing that such statements on his userpage aren't problematic; while intended as a joke, and clearly outrageous, it could easily be misinterpreted and damage his credibility as an administrator. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 03:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# First Choice. ] (]) 08:36, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


;Oppose ;Oppose
# I think correspondence clerk is fine if role is something we're going with, it's less ambiguous as to what it entails than scrivener. - ] (]) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
# While unblocking oneself is clearly one of the worst acts an administrator can do, this is somewhat mitigated in this case by Herostratus having reasonable cause to expect that the block was simply in error (the lack of explanation on his talk page having played no small part in that misunderstanding). It thus does not raise to the level of a desysop. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 03:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# I have never heard that word before; at least "correspondence" and "clerk" are somewhat common in the English Misplaced Pages world. When possible, I think we should use words people don't have to look up in dictionaries. ] (]) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
# Per Coren. Everyone mark this down, it's only the 2nd time I haven't supported a desyssop. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 03:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Largely per Coren. ] (]) 04:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# My understanding is that the rationale behind preventing an admin from unblocking himself/herself is meant for circumstances where he/she has been blocked for acts of malice (such as rogue deletions, vandalism, 3RR, etc). Given the circumstances of what has happened, I think Herostratus might not been expecting such an outcome (of being blocked) and has unblocked himself in a rash act. - ] 04:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Per Coren. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 07:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# I think this is a reasonable application of IAR; Herostratus had good reason to believe the block was a simple error (especially due to lack of communication by the blocking admin) and was communicative shortly after. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# A full-fledged desysop is not required under these circumstances. ] (]) 23:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Per Coren. ] (]) 23:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


;Abstain ;Abstain
# I think that because it's more archaic and possibly less serious, I disprefer this to either "coordination assistant" or "correspondence clerk", but would ultimately be perfectly happy with it. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
#


;Arbitrator discussion
==== Herostratus temporarily desysopped ====


==== Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant" ====
1.2) For unblocking himself in direct contravention of blocking policy, Herostratus is desysopped for 1 week. He may apply for reinstatement of the tools by request to a bureaucrat, request to the Committee, or a Request for Adminship.
{{ivmbox|1=If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "coordination assistants".}}
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support
#

;Oppose
# bleh. ] <sup>]</sup>] 04:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

;Abstain
# I am indifferent between this and "correspondence clerk". Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
# If we're going to use a role like this, either this or correspondence clerk is fine. - ] (]) 04:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
# That would be okay. ] (]) 19:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

;Arbitrator discussion

==== Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial) ====
{{ivmbox|1=If motion 1 passes, omit the text {{tqq|1=for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it}}.}}


{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support ;Support
# #


;Oppose ;Oppose
# I recently experimented with sunset clauses and think that frankly a lot more of what we do should have such time limits that require us to stop and critically evaluate if a thing is working. ] <sup>]</sup>] 04:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
# For the same reason as 1.1. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 03:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# If this change is necessary, there should be a review of it after a reasonable trial period to see what does and does not work. - ] (]) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
# Strongly opposed. Firstly, the self-unblocking aside, Herostratus's last administrator action was in 200''8'', so a temporary removal of the tools is not going to make much difference. Secondly, the short time frame offered by this motion is hardly worth the effort of finding a steward to flip the bit. Thirdly, I am generally opposed to temporary desysoppings of any nature, for reasons I can go into more detail on later if requested. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 03:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# ] (]) 19:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
# per Coren and Hersfold.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 03:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Oppose, though I will grudgingly change to weak second-choice support if it comes down to a close vote between this and 1.1. ] (]) 04:44, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Per 1.1. - ] 04:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Again, per Coren. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 07:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
#Generally opposed to de-sysops less than 3 months; anything shorter seems more like a ding than a preventive measure. If its not that serious, we may as well just get out the trout instead. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# I believe that Herostratus has got the point, and an admonishment is sufficient. ] (]) 23:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Per Coren. ] (]) 23:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


;Abstain ;Abstain
# I have no preference as to whether this is permanent or a trial. I do think that nine months is a good length for the trial if we choose to have one: not too long to lock in a year's committee; not too short to make it unworthwhile. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
#


;Arbitrator discussion
==== Viridae admonished ====


==== Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly ====
2) For blocking another administrator without full knowledge of the situation at hand, and without attempting to contact the administrator to obtain such knowledge, Viridae is admonished for the poor judgment exercised in this incident.
{{ivmbox|1=If motion 1 passes, strike the following text:
<blockquote>To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current ''arbcom-en'' mailing list shall be renamed to ''arbcom-en-internal'', which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new ''arbcom-en'' email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new ''arbcom-en'' list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.</blockquote>


And replace it with the following:
'''Enacted''' ~ <font color="#FF0099">Amory</font><font color="#555555"><small> ''(] • ] • ])''</small></font> 15:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
<blockquote>To that end, correspondence clerks shall be added to the ''arbcom-en'' mailing list. The Committee shall continue to maintain at least one mailing list accessible only by arbitrators.</blockquote>
}}


{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support ;Support
# Much less trouble to have them on the main list than to split the lists. ] <sup>]</sup>] 04:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
# That was poor judgment indeed, and I would expect Viridae to be considerably more deliberate in the future. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 03:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# This was a very reactionary block, and the situation on the whole could have been handled much better than it was. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 03:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 03:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Please exercise more care in the future. - ] 04:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 07:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Viridae fell for a bad (both in judgment and in nature) joke. Look before you leap, please. ] (]) 08:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# I don't understand the block at all; if the account was compromised, it could simply unblock. There is already a procedure to handle situations like this with emergency de-sysops yet it was another editor and not Viridae who advised ArbCom of the concern. Little bit more thought first next time please. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
#: As noted in the "background" above, I believe that Viridae hadn't noticed that Herostratus was an administrator at the time he blocked. ] (]) 20:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# The fact that Herostratus is an administrator is not, in my mind, a particularly significant factor in determining how poorly considered this block is; I would have found it fell significantly below the standards expected of administrators regardless of whether the account belonged to an editor or an administrator. ] (]) 23:13, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Agree with Shell and Risker, a poor block all around. ] (]) 23:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


;Oppose ;Oppose
# Access to private information should be as limited as possible to only what is strictly necessary to perform such a task, and I don't see a allowing full access to the contents of the current list necessary for this. I'd rather not split the list, but between that and giving full access then if we're going to have a correspondence clerk, then it needs to be split. - ] (]) 04:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
# In my view, under all the circumstances, this is not necessary or helpful. ] (]) 04:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
# Motion 1 is already problematic for privacy reasons; this would make it worse. ] (]) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)


;Abstain ;Abstain
# I would not really object to this. C-clerks (or whatever we call them) are former arbs and have previously been on arbcom-en in any event, so it doesn't seem that like a big deal to do this. On the other hand, I would understand if folks prefer the split. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
#

;Arbitrator discussion
* Proposed per ]. ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

=== Motion 2: WMF staff support ===
{{ivmbox|1=
The Arbitration Committee requests that the Wikimedia Foundation Committee Support Team provide staff support for the routine administration and organization of the Committee's mailing list and non-public work.

The selected staff assistants shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing ] assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work. Staff assistants shall perform their functions under the direction of the Arbitration Committee and shall not represent the Wikimedia Foundation in the course of their support work with the Arbitration Committee or disclose the Committee's internal deliberations except as directed by the Committee.

The specific responsibilities of the staff assistants shall include, as directed by the Committee:
* Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
* Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
* Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
* Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
* Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of staff assistants shall ''not'' include:
* Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
* Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the selection of staff assistants, the current ''arbcom-en'' mailing list shall be renamed to ''arbcom-en-internal'', which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new ''arbcom-en'' email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new ''arbcom-en'' list shall be the arbitrators and staff assistants.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by staff assistants.

Staff assistants shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.}}

<!-- change the number depending on active count -->
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support
#

;Oppose
# I appreciate that Kevin put this together, and I think this would be very helpful, maybe even the most helpful, way to ensure that we stayed on top of the ball. But just because it would achieve one goal doesn't make it a good idea. A full version of my rationale is on the ArbList, for other Arbs. The short, ] version is that this would destroy the line between us and the Foundation, which undoes much of our utility. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
# Per my comment on motion 4. - ] (]) 01:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
# Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. ] (]) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
# I like the general idea of the WMF using its donated resources to support the community that made the donations possible. I am uncomfortable with putting WMF staff in front of ArbCom's e-mail queue, however, as this would come with unavoidable conflicts of interest and a loss of independence. ] (]) 19:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
# The help would be useful, but the consequences would be detrimental to both ArbCom & WMF. Some space between us is necessary for ArbCom's impartiality & for the WMF's ] position. ] (]) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

;Abstain
#

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;Arbitrator discussion
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==== Motion 2: Arbitrator views and discussions ====
*I am quite open to this idea. A professional staff member assisting the committee might be the most reliable and consistent way to achieve this goal. ArbCom doesn't need the higher-intensity support that the WMF Committee Support Team provides other committees like AffCom and the grant committees, but having somebody to track threads and bump stalled discussions would be quite helpful. I'm going to wait to see if there's any community input on this motion before voting on it, though. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

=== Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators ===
{{ivmbox|1=
The ] are amended by adding the following section:
<blockquote>
; Coordinating arbitrators
The Arbitration Committee shall, from time to time, designate one or more arbitrators to serve as the Committee's coordinating arbitrators.

Coordinating arbitrators shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing ] assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.

The specific responsibilities of coordinating arbitrators shall include:
* Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
* Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
* Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
* Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
* Performing similar routine administrative and clerical functions.

A coordinating arbitrator may, but is not required to, state an intention to abstain on some or all matters before the Committee without being listed as an "inactive" arbitrator.
</blockquote>
}}

<!-- change the number depending on active count -->
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support
# This is currently my first-choice option; we have unofficially in the past had arbitrators take on specific roles (e.g. tracking unblock requests, responding to emails, etc) and it seemed to work fairly well. Having those rules be more "official" seems like the best way to make sure ''someone'' is responsible for these things, without needing to expand the committee or the pool of people with access to private information. ] (]) 18:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
#I may still vote for the clerks option, but I think this is probably the minimum of what we need. Will it be suffucient...aye, there's the rub. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
#Of the motions proposed, this one is the one I'd most support. It doesn't expand the number of people who can view the ArbCom mailing list beyond those on ArbCom, and creates a structure that may improve how the mailing list is handled. - ] (]) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
#Per Primefac. ] (]) 19:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

;Oppose
#

;Abstain
#

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;Arbitrator discussion
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==== Motion 3: Arbitrator views and discussions ====
*I am also open to this idea, though I am worried that it will be insufficient and haven't made up my mind on my vote yet. This idea was floated by a former arbitrator from back when the committee ''did'' have a coordinating arbitrator, though that role kind of quietly faded away. The benefits of this approach include that there's no need to bring anyone else onto the list. This motion also allows (but does not require) arbs to take a step back from active arb business to focus on the coordination role, which could help with the bifurcation I mention above. Cons include that this could be the least reliable option; that it's possible no arb is interested, or has the capacity to do this well; and that it's hard to be both a coordinator on ''top'' of the existing difficult role of serving as an active arb. I personally think this is better than nothing, but probably prefer one of the other two motions to actually add some capacity. {{pb}} Other ideas that have been floated include establishing a subcommittee of arbitrators responsible for these functions. My same concerns would apply there, but if there's interest, I'm glad to draft and propose a motion to do that; any other arb should also feel free to propose such a motion of their own. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
*I was partial to this idea, though it was not my first choice. I proposed that we might make it a rotating position, à la the ]. Alternatively, a three person subcommittee might also be the way to go, so that the position isn't dependent on one person's activity. I like this solution in general because we already basically had it, with the coordinating arbitrator role. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
** {{yo|CaptainEek}} I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I <em>don't</em> love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I <em>am</em> leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name {{Emoji|1F604|theme=twitter|size=20px}} ] (] • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
**:My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ] (]) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
**::I think formalizing it does move the needle on someone doing it. Two possible benefits of the formalization:
::::* It makes clear that this is a valuable role, one that an arb should feel is a sufficient and beneficial way to spend their time. It also communicates this to the community, which might otherwise ask an arb running for reelection why they spent their time coordinating (rather than on other arb work).
::::* It gives "permission" for coordinating arbs to go inactive on other business if they wish.
::::These two benefits make this motion more than symbolic in my view. My hesitation on it remains that it may be quite insufficient relative to motion 1. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 22:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

=== Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks ===
{{ivmbox|1=In the event that "Motion 1: Correspondence clerks" passes, the Arbitration Committee shall request that the Wikimedia Foundation provide grants payable to correspondence clerks in recognition of their assistance to the Committee.}}
{{ACMajority|active=10|motion=yes}}
;Support
#

;Oppose
# Misplaced Pages should remain a volunteer activity. If we cannot find volunteers to do the task, then perhaps it ought not be done in the first place. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
# We should not have a clerk paid by the WMF handling English Misplaced Pages matters in this capacity. - ] (]) 01:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
# ] (]) 19:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

;Abstain
#

<!--
;Arbitrator discussion
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==== Motion 4: Arbitrator views and discussions ====
*Proposing for discussion; thanks to {{U|voorts}} for the idea. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 19:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I am leaning no on this motion. The potential downsides of this plan do seem to outweigh the benefit of being able to compensate a correspondence clerk for what will ultimately likely be something like 5 hours a week at most. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 02:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

=== Community discussion ===
Will correspondence clerks be required to sign an NDA? Currently clerks aren't. Regardless of what decision is made this should probably be in the motion. ] ] 18:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:Good catch. I thought it was implied by "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps"{{snd}}who all sign NDAs as a condition to access functionaries-en and the CUOS tools; see ] ({{tqq|1=Functionary access requires that the user sign the ].}}) {{snd}}but I've made it explicit now. ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:: You're right that that was there, but I missed it on my first readthrough of the rules (thinking correspondence clerks would be appointed from the clerk team instead). ] ] 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
----
Why does "coordinating arbitrators" need a (public) procedures change? ] (]) 18:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:As ], it seems reasonable to assume that having something written down "officially" might help make sure that the coordinating arbitrator knows what they are responsible for. In any event, it probably can't hurt. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::It is a pain in the ass to get formal procedures changed. There is an internal procedures page: I see 0 reason not to use it if you want to clarify what the role of this arbitrator is. ] (]) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::On top of that, this doesn't actually change the status quo much if at all. It is almost entirely a role definition for an internal matter, given "we can make an arb a CA, but we don't have to have one" in it's "from time to time" clause. This just looks like noise to anyone reading ARBPRO who isn't on ArbCom: the public doesn't need to know this arb even exists, though they might commonly be the one responding to emails so they might get a sense there is such an arb. ] (]) 19:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
----
While I appreciate that some functionaries are open to volunteering for this role, this <s>borders on</s> <ins>is</ins> a part-time secretarial job and ought to be compensated as such. The correspondence clerks option combined with WMF throwing some grant money towards compensation would be my ideal. ] (]/]) 18:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for this suggestion{{snd}}I've added motion 4 to address this suggestion. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
----
In the first motion the word "users" in "The Committee shall establish a process to allow users to, in unusual circumstances" is confusing, it should probably be "editors". In the first and second motions, it should probably be explicit whether correspondence clerks/support staff are required, permitted or prohibited to:
*Share statistical information publicly
*Share status information (publicly or privately) with correspondents who wish to know the status of their request.
*Share status information (publicly or privately) about the status of a specific request with someone other than the correspondent.
*:For this I'm thinking of scenarios like where e.g. an editor publicly says they emailed the Committee about something a while ago, and one or more other editors asks what is happening with it.
I think my preference would be for 1 or 2, as these seem likely to be the more reliable. Neither option precludes there also being a coordinating arbitrator doing some of the tasks as well. ] (]) 18:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for these suggestions. I've changed "users" to "editors". The way I'm intending these motions to be read, correspondence clerks or staff assistants should only disclose information as directed by the committee. I think the details of which information should be shared upon whose request in routine cases could be decided later by the committee, with the default being "ask ArbCom before disclosing until the committee decides to approve routine disclosures in certain cases", because it's probably hard to know in advance which categories will be important to allow. I'm open to including more detail if you think that's important to include at this stage, though, and I'd welcome hearing why if so. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
::I see your point, but I think it worth clarifying certain things in advance ''before'' they become an issue to avoid unrealistic or mistaken expectations of the c-clerks by the community. Point 1 doesn't need to be specified in advance, maybe something like "communicating information publicly as directed by the Committee" would be useful to say in terms of expectation management or maybe it's still to specific? I can see both sides of that.
::Point 2 I think is worth establishing quickly and while it is on people's minds. Waiting for the committee to make up its mind before knowing whether they can give a full response to a correspondent about this would be unfair to both the correspondent and clerk I think. This doesn't necessarily have to be before adoption, but if not it needs to be very soon afterwards.
::Point 3 is similar, but c-clerks and community members knowing exactly what can and cannot be shared, and especially being able to point to something in writing about what cannot be said publicly, has the potential to reduce drama e.g. if there is another situation similar to Billed Mammal's recent case request. ] (]) 19:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
-----
What justification is there for the WMF to spend a single additional dollar on the workload of a project-specific committee whose workload is now demonstrably smaller than at any time in its history? (Noting here that there is a real dollar-cost to the support already being given by WMF, such as the monthly Arbcom/T&S calls that often result in the WMF accepting requests for certain activities.) And anyone who is being paid by the WMF is responsible to the WMF as the employer, not to English Misplaced Pages Arbcom.

I think Arbcom is perhaps not telling the community some very basic facts that are leading to their efforts to find someone to take responsibility for its organization, which might include "we have too many members who aren't pulling their weight" or "we have too many members who, for various reasons that don't have to do with Misplaced Pages, are inactive", or "we have some tasks that nobody really wants to do". There's no indication that any of these solutions would solve these kinds of problems, and I think that all of these issues are factors that are clearly visible to those who follow Arbcom on even an occasional basis. Arbitrators who are inactive for their own reasons aren't going to become more active because someone's organizing their mail. Arbitrators who don't care enough to vote on certain things aren't any more likely to vote if someone is reminding them to vote in a non-public forum; there's no additional peer pressure or public guilt-tripping. And if Arbcom continues to have tasks that nobody really wants to do, divest those tasks. Arbcom has successfully done that with a large number of tasks that were once its responsibility.

I think you can do a much better job of making your case. ] (]) 20:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

:I think there is a need to do ''something'' as poor communication and extremely slow replies, if replies are made at all, has been an ongoing issue for the committee for some time. However I agree that asking the foundation to pay someone to do it is going too far. The point that if you are paid by the foundation, you work for them and not en.wp or arbcom is a compelling one. There's also a ] argument to be made in that if we're paying these people, shouldn't we pay the committee? If we're paying the committee, shouldn't we pay the arbitration clerks....and so on. ] ] 20:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:I fully share Risker's concern about a paid WMF staffer who, no matter how well-intentioned, will be answerable to the WMF and not ARBCOM. ] (]) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:The 2023-2024 committee is much more middle aged and has less university students and retirees, who oftentimes have more free time, than the 2016-2017 committee. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --] (]) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is ], when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public ''more'' than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, ] (]) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::During my first term it was Roger Davies. He was barely a presence on-wiki but he kept the whole committee on point and up-to-date about what was pending. Trypto is right that it isn't enforceable, it is more a matter of applying pressure to either do the job or move oneself to the inactive list.
::::I also think the committee can and should be more proactive about declaring other arbs inactive ''even when they are otherwise present on-wiki or on the mailing list''" That would probably require a procedures change, but I think it would make sense. If there is a case request, proposed decision, or other matter that requires a vote before the committee and an arb doesn't comment on it for ten days or more, they clearly don't have the time and/or inclination to do so and should be declared inactive on that matter so that their lack of action does not further delay the matter. It would be nice if they would just do so themselves, or just vote "abstain" on everything, which only takes a few minutes, but it seems it has not been happening in practice. ] ] 00:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- ] <sup>]</sup> 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. ] (]) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which ''way'' they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --] (]) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, ] (]) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --] (]) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::That's something that's hard to know or verify, even for the other arbs. The arbs only know what the other arbs tell them, and I've never seen anyone admit to that. ] ] 23:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)


----
=== Clerk Notes ===
I think the timing for this is wrong. The committee is about to have between 6 and 9 new members (depending on whether Guerillero, Eek, and Primefac get re-elected). In addition it seems likely that some number of former arbs are about to rejoin the committee. This committee - basically the committee with the worst amount of active membership of any 15 member committee ever - seems like precisely the wrong one to be making large changes to ongoing workflows in December. Izno's idea of an easier to try and easier to change/abandon internal procedure for the coordinating arb feels like something appropriate to try now. The rest feel like it should be the prerogative of the new committee to decide among (or perhaps do a different change altogether). Best, ] (]) 21:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
:''This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.''


:Kevin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed he was doing this now because he will not be on the committee a month from now.
=== Discussion ===
:That being said it could be deliberately held over, or conversely, possibly fall victim to the inactivity you mention and still be here for the new committee to decide. ] ] 23:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Personally, I don't see the need to offer an admonishment to Viridae. I think he did what many admins would have done. He believed an account wasn't in control of it's operator so he blocked. The post on the userpage looked to me like Herostratus was not in sole control of his account. I think it's unfair to give Viridae a "warning" for his conduct when he was acting in complete good faith in accordance with what administrators usually do with compromised accounts. I note above some arbitrators believe that he should have emailed the committee with the concern to request desysopping - true, perhaps he should have, but it should still have been blocked regardless of whether or not it was an admin account (had the account actually been compromised) - an admin account wouldn't have been treated any differently from a non-admin account with respect to blocking. I'd ask that the arbitrators look again at the admonishment with a view to changing from support to opposition. ''']<sup>See ] or ]</sup>''' 20:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::Since ] elections are currently taking place it makes sense to have the incoming arbitrators weigh in on changes like this. They are the ones that will be affected by any of these motions passing rather than the outgoing arbitrators. - ] (]) 00:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
*The Arbcom is on record as beleiving that Admins and Oversighters should act first and ask questions later - even in an obvious joke scenario. Obviously, for reasons best known to themselves, this policy does not currently suit them. This is just more of the usual inconsistency that we all expect from them. I note that RLevse is having the audacity to support this admonishing motion - what a change of heart - what a shower - do we really need to bring up Randy from Boise again - to prove that the Arbs and co cannot have it both ways? !<small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::Oh I assumed that's why he was doing it also. I am also assuming he's doing it to try and set up the future committees for success. That doesn't change my point about why this is the wrong time and why a different way of trying the coordinator role (if it has support) would be better. Best, ] (]) 00:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
*I agree entirely with Ryan here. Viridae had what appeared to be clear evidence that an account has been compromised; blocking it was entirely the correct course of action. I really don't understand a line of reasoning which appears to boil down to "but he upset an administrator so he should have been more careful".&nbsp;–&nbsp;<font color="#E45E05">]</font><font color="#C1118C">]</font> 22:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::Regarding "timing is wrong": I think you both would agree that these are a long time coming{{snd}}we have been working on these and related ideas for years (I ran on a related idea in 2022). I do think there's never quite a ''good'' time. Very plausibly, the first half of the year is out because the new arbs will need that time to learn how the processes work and think about what kinds of things should be changed vs. kept the same. And then it might be another few months as the new ArbCom experiments with less-consequential changes like the ones laid about at the top: technological solutions, trying new ways of tracking stuff, etc., before being confident in the need for something like set out above. And then things get busy for other reasons; there will be weeks or even occasionally months when the whole committee is overtaken by some urgent situation. I've experienced a broadly similar dynamic a few times now; this is all to say that there's just not much time or space in the agenda for this kind of stuff in a one-year cycle, which would be a shame because I do think this is important to take on. <br>I do think that it should be the aspiration of every year's committee to leave the succeeding committee some improvements in the functioning of the committee based on lessons learned that year, so it would be nice to leave the next committee with this. That said, if arbitrators do feel that we should hold this over to the new committee, I'm not really in a position to object{{snd}}as JSS says, this is my last year on the committee, so it's not like this will benefit me. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:*As noted in the background, Viridae's block was not entirely based on the potentially compromised account issue - s/he was also acting on a series of entirely unfounded allegations. In either of these cases, the proper course of action would be to notify ArbCom rather than take action individually, which is what another user did. ] <sup>(]/]/])</sup> 22:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, ] (]) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::*No, Arbcom recommend that action is taken first and questions asked afterwards. Even when it's a joke that even a half-wit can spot. They have always been quite clear about this. Brad, Risker and RLevse will confirm this. So, all 7 of you are going to have to change your vote, or Rlevse is going to look very stupid indeed. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Here's what I'll leave you with overall. What you may see as a downside{{snd}}these proposals being voted on relatively late in the year{{snd}}I see as a significant possible upside. Members of this committee are able to draw on at least eleven months' experience as arbitrators in deciding what is working well and what might warrant change{{snd}}experience which is important in determining what kinds of processes and systems lead to effective and ineffective outcomes. That experience is important: Although I have served on ArbCom for four years and before that served as an ArbCom clerk for almost six years, I still learn more every year about what makes this committee click. {{pb}} If what really concerns you is locking in the new committee to a particular path, as I wrote ], I'm very open to structuring this as a trial run that will end of its own accord unless the committee takes action to make it permanent. This would ensure that the new committee retains full control over whether to continue, discontinue, or adapt these changes. But in my book, it does not make sense to wait. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::Could Risker please explain how she feels this differs from the occasion when her fellow arb (RLevse - who she supported) had an obvious joke oversighted. Does she feel a oversight performed oon the whim of an Arb is less of a crime than an admin blocking another. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:18, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:*As a 3-term former arb and a 3-term current ], I've had experience of about a dozen Wikimedia committee "new intakes". I am quite convinced that these proposals are correctly timed. Process changes are better put in place prior to new appointees joining, so that they are not joining at a moment of upheaval. Doing them late in the day is not objectionable and momentum often comes at the end of term. If the changes end up not working (doubtful), the new committee would just vote to tweak the process or go back. I simply do not understand the benefit of deferring proposals into a new year, adding more work to the next year's committee. That surely affects the enthusiasm and goodwill of new members. As for the point that the '24 committee is understaffed and prone to indecision: ''argumentum ad hominem''. If Kevin's proposals work, they work. If anything, it might be ''more'' difficult to agree administrative reforms when the committee is back at full staff. ] 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The difference, Giano, is that the oversighted edit wasn't obviously a joke, as many people had no idea you *were* joking; and that suppression of an edit does nothing to anyone's editing status. Blocking someone without taking the time to figure out that someone has to have control of their account to be able to post that they *don't* have control of their account, along with the other circumstances relevant to the blocking decision, was a poor decision that marred an editor's block log. The fact that Herostratus is an admin doesn't make a difference in my mind; it was a bad block, period. ] (]) 23:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:*:If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, ] (]) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
::Complete and utter rubbish! - are seriously suggesting that people thought ] was an arb (<small>allthough he could hardly make a worse job of it</small>)? You yourself agreed that blocks and oversights should be performed and questions asked later. Now you seem to feel differently. Do try and decide what it is you beleive; it would be such a help to us poor mortals on the ground. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:34, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
:*::You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. ] 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Never said anything about blocks, Giano, and nobody was blocked in the Randy in Boise incident. ] (]) 00:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:*:::I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, ] (]) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::*Having one's edits oversighted (secretly) is indicative of far worse crimes than those that can be written on one's block log by some 14-year-old in Alabama ofr Idaho or wherever it is Misplaced Pages is currently recruiting its admins. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:*::::While I think a solution such as adopting ZenDesk is something that could face objections, personally I think the idea of having someone track a list of work items for a committee is a pretty standard way of working (including pushing for timely resolution, something that really needs a person, not just a program). From an outsider's perspective, it's something I'd expect. It doesn't matter to non-arbitrators who does the tracking, so the committee should feel free to change that decision internally as often as it feels is effective. I'd rather there be a coordinating arbitrator in place in the interim until another solution is implemented, than have no one tracking work items in the meantime. ] (]) 19:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Sorry Risker, but "this was obviously a joke" doesn't stand up for a moment. It's obvious from - linked in the original motion, so you have to be aware of it - that until Herostratus's "It was all a joke" comment, nobody thought ''this'' was a joke either.&nbsp;–&nbsp;<font color="#E45E05">]</font><font color="#C1118C">]</font> 23:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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Just to double check that I'm reading motion 1 correctly, it ''would'' still be possible to email the original list (for arbitrators only) if, for example, you were raising a concern about something the correspondence clerks should not be privy to (ie: misuse of tools by a functionary), correct? Granted, I think motion 3 is probably the simpler option here, but in the event motion 1 passes, is the understanding I wrote out accurate? ] <sup>(]) </sup> 02:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)


:@] Yes, but probably only after an additional step. The penultimate paragraph of motions 1 and 2 says {{tpq|The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks .}} No details are given about what this process would be, but one possibility would I guess be something like contacting an individual arbitrator outlining clearly why you think the c-clerks should not be privy to whatever it is. If they agree they'll tell you how to submit your evidence (maybe they'll add your email address to a temporary whitelist). ] (]) 03:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I'm rather astonished at Risker's concern about "a poor decision that marred an editor's block log", although what she clearly meant to say was " a poor decision that marred an administrator's block log". How many poor decisions have been made this week alone that have "marred an editor's block log", but because that editor wasn't an administrator nobody gave a damn? This is plumbing the depths of hypocrisy even for wikipedia. --] ] 00:36, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
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::::Gimme a break, Malleus. I think it was a bad block, regardless of Herostratus's permissions level. He's been here for four and a half years, and that by itself warrants some further investigation. If I had written the motion, it would have said "editor" instead of "admin", but I didn't write it, and I'm not about to write a new one when this one is already passing. ] (]) 00:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
In my experience working on committees and for non-profits, typically management is much more open to offering money for software solutions that they are told can resolve a problem than agreeing to pay additional compensation for new personnel. Are you sure there isn't some tracking solution that could resolve some of these problems? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:In our tentative discussions with WMF, it sounded like it would be much more plausible to get a 0.1-0.2 FTE of staffer time than it would to get us 15 ZenDesk licenses, which was also somewhat surprising to me. That wasn't a firm response{{snd}}if we went back and said we really need this, I'm guessing it'd be plausible. And we've never asked about compensating c-clerks{{snd}}that was an idea that came from ], and I proposed it for discussion, not because I necessarily support it but because I think it's worth discussion, and I certainly don't think it's integral to the c-clerk proposal. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 15:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:
:::* On volunteers: As I wrote ], four functionaries (including three former arbs) expressed initial-stage interest when this was floated when I consulted functionaries{{snd}}which is great and was a bit unexpected, and which is why I wrote it up this way. Arbitrators will know that my initial plan from previous months/years did not involve limiting this to functionaries, to have a broader pool of applicants. But since we do have several interested functs, and they are already trusted to hold NDA'd private information (especially the former arbs who have previously been elected to access to this very list), I thought this would be a good way to make this a more uncontroversial proposal.
:::* How many to appoint? I imagine one or two if it was up to me. One would be ideal (I think it's like 30 minutes of work per day ish, max), but two for redundancy might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's {{tqq|1= all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results}}{{snd}}because the c-clerk would be responsible for tracking matters, not actually attempting to resolve them, that's a lot less work than serving as an arb. It does require more consistency than most arbs have to put in, though.
:::* On compensating: Yeah, I'm not sure I'll end up supporting the idea, but I don't think it's unprecedented in the sense that you're thinking. Correspondence clerks aren't ''editing''; none of the tasks listed in the motion require on-wiki edits. And there are plenty of WMF grants that have gone to ''off''-wiki work for the benefit of projects; the first example I could think of was ] but I know there are many.
:::Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 21:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. ] (]) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::{{tpq|But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work?}}. No, the actual work takes a lot more time and effort because each arb has to read, understand and form opinions on many different things, and the committee needs to discuss most of those things, which will often re-reading and re-evaluating based on the points raised. Then in many cases there needs to be a vote. What the "one-person, 30 minutes a day" is referring to is just the meta of what tasks are open, what the current status of it is, who needs to opine on it, etc. ] (]) 11:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Thanks, I realized I misunderstood it. I see that this is a relatively lightweight proposal, perhaps it could work but it probably won't help much either.
::::::@] I have been thinking of splitting ArbCom into Public ArbCom and Private ArbCom. I see Public ArbCom as being able to function without the tools as @] advocated, focused more on complex dispute resolution. I see Private ArbCom as high-trust roles with NDAs, privy to WMF and overseeing Public ArbCom. Both ArbComs are elected separately as 15-members bodies, and both will be left with about half the current authority and responsibility. ] (]) 01:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I agree, having someone managing the work could really help smooth things out. ] (]) 11:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::My first thought is that cleanly splitting arbcom would be very difficult. For example what happens if there is an open public case and two-thirds of the way through the evidence phase someone discovers and wishes to submit private evidence? ] (]) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. ] (]) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? ] (]) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::You raised good points that I did not address. I think that a way to do this would be to follow how Oversighters have the authority to override Admins that they use sparingly. Private ArbCom could have the right to receive any private evidence regarding an ongoing case on Public ArbCom, and Private ArbCom will have discretions to override Public ArbCom remedies without explanation other than something like "per private evidence". Private ArbCom would need to familiarize themselves with the case a bit, but this is mitigated by the fact that they only concerned with the narrow parts. Private ArbCom could have the authority to take the whole Public ArbCom case private if it deems that private evidence affect many parties. ] (]) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::12 candidates for 9 open seats is sufficient. But it hardly suggests we have so many people that we could support 30 people (even presuming some additional people would run under the split). Further, what happens behind the scenes already strains the trust of the community. But at least the community can see the public actions as a reminder of "well this person hasn't lost it completely while on ArbCom". I think it would be '''much''' harder to sustain trust under this split. Best, ] (]) 02:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I honestly like the size of 12-member committee, too many proverbial cooks spoil the proverbial broth. I did think about the trust aspect, as the community has been holding ArbCom under scrutiny, but at the same time I consider that the community has been collegial with Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters. Private ArbCom would be far less visible, with Public ArbCom likely taking the heat for contentious decisions. ] (]) 11:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with L235 regarding whether this is all the work and none of the authority: it does not come with all the responsibility that being an Arb comes with {{em|either}}. This role does not need to respond to material questions or concerns about arbitration matters and does not need to read and weigh the voluminous case work to come to a final decision. The c-clerk will need to keep up on emails and will probably need to have an idea of what's going on in public matters, but that was definitely not the bulk of the (stressful?) work of an arbitrator. ] (]) 00:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:@] well that's what I thought. I figured that ZenDesk was the winningest solution, until the Foundation made it seem like ZenDesk licenses were printed on gold bars. We did do some back of the envelope calculations, and it is decidedly expensive. Still...I have a hard time believing those ZenDesk licenses really cost more than all that staff time. I think we'll have to do some more convincing of the Foundation on that front, or implement a different solution. ] <sup>]</sup>] 01:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)


I touched upon the ] on the arbitration committee talk page, and am also pleasantly surprised to hear there is some interest. I think this approach may be the most expeditious way to put something in place at least for the interim. (On a side note, I urge people not to let the term "c-clerk" catch on. It sounds like stuttering, or someone not good enough to be an A-level clerk. More importantly, it would be quite an obscure jargon term.) ] (]) 23:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::I'll give you a break when you deserve one. How many editors who have been here for years get blocked on a whim every day, but you don't notice because they're not administrators and so can't unblock themselves? None? You're having a laugh, but it's sad you can't see that this isn't funny. --] ] 05:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


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::::::Herostratus' "joke" was until Herostratus explained. I suggest for admins and other "power users" the default should be "don't joke".
{{tq2|To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks. }}
::::::The make the point that a possible compromise of a "power user" account is a serious and urgent threat, as it could do a lot of damage in a hour or 2. Compare with that, a over-cautious but prompt block is a minor inconvenience. --] (]) 07:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::*What Risker and her chums above are trying to explain here is that if an Admin makes a joke, it is hystericaly funny and all should immediatly fall about laughing, but if a non-Admin makes a joke he should be oversighted or banned (she probably secretly thinks both). Anyone who fails to appreciate the Admin's (rather poor) joke must be taught a lesson and anyone who dares to block an Admin must be stamped on. The Arbcom have performed a complete U-Turn in their desperation to stamp on Viridae - all he did was block an editor whose behaviour was erratic and whose account was considered compromised. Viridae followed Risker's own advice and acted promptly to prevent a possible situation arising and asked questions secondly. He did this openly and honestly. Now it seems Risker and her Arb chums don't feel their own advice is sound all. I have seen some strange Arbcom decisions in my time, but it now appears that just like oversighting Arbcom justice is dependant on Arbcom's whim of the moment. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 07:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*How about "For blocking another editor, partly based on hearsay, without full knowledge of the situation at hand, and without attempting to contact the editor to obtain such knowledge ..." I think that is what is meant, anyway. --'''<font color="#0000FF">]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">]</font>''' 09:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::No, that wouldn't suit them, it's exactly that's the same scenario as when Rlevse had a wrongful oversight ('''of a very obvious joke comment''') carried out and they justified it by saying Admins had to act first, do what they thought was best and ask questions afterwards. Which is exactly what Viridae did and did so very openely and honestly. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 13:08, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
*So let me get this straight - all the stuff he put on his userpage was basically a joke? Does that include this "incident" he referred to, because I seriously believed the local council of his area actually ''did'' restrict his internet access due to some well-documented incident I was unaware of. This is confusing. ] (]) 14:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
**Apparently so. But Risker says nobody could possibly have believed him, so when you say you seriously believed it you must have been lying. As is . And .&nbsp;–&nbsp;<font color="#E45E05">]</font><font color="#C1118C">]</font> 15:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::In a nutshell: It would appear so, yes. I can quite beleive that some of Misplaced Pages's Admins have troubled personal lives; I can't think what make Risker so reluctant to think otherwise. It seems Herostratus made a bad and bizarre joke, Viridae honestly blocked to be cautious (as advised bu the Arbcom, in particular Risker, Rlevse, Brad and Co) only to find that the Arbcom thought the joke was hysterically funny and were laughing their socks off, then stopping their mirth, they decided to admonish Viridae for blocking an admin and presumably not sharing their warped sense of humour. It is very odd indeed. I must start to crack some of muy own terribly amusing and witty jokes again soon, now that the climate has warmed to fun and games. Heard the one about the Arb who was going to retire, and then changed his mind? You'll laugh yourselves stupid at that one. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:14, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
* Admins and ArbCom were supposedly elected for their good judgement. ArbCom's position on admin conduct and the like has been relatively stagnant and affected by politics. What next? Expecting something to change for the better is a futile exercise. ] (]) 16:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::*Maybe, but somebody has to stand up and say "Hey, this is not acceptable." The Arbcom bent over backwards to get Rlevse off the hook, said all manner of things, no one was impressed by their shameful behaviour. Now, 5 minutes later, they cannot even remember the rubbish they spouted about "act first and question later." <small>They never did explain why Rlevse never merely asked me, but no matter.</small> They have proven themselves to be people without standards or consistency. They treat Misplaced Pages as their personal playground and dispence justice according to who is on the receiving end. We have reached a stage where bringing a case to Arbcom is similar to playing Russian Roulette, the only difference is Russian Roulette can be exiting and relatively painless. Why should Viridae be punished for following Arbcom guidance? That Rlevse has the nerve and audacity to even comment adversely on an Admins response to a "joke" shows how unfit he is to be an Admin himself, let alone an Arb. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:42, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::*This isn't about Randy, and your comments here are unhelpful. ] '']'' 19:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::*Do they have to stand up and say that though? What could one accomplish (in reality) by doing so? ] (]) 09:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


Something I raised in the functionary discussion was that this doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for this split here? ] (]) 00:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::It is entirely about Randy! It is because of the rubbish spouted by Arbcom when Rlevse showed his ignorance of Misplaced Pages's protocols, maners and "in jokes" that Risker, Brad and Co ruled that Admins should "act first - question later." That is is indisputable and that is what Viridae did! The Arbcom is firmly in the wrong here and '''has''' to back down. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 20:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Randy from Boise has zero to do with this. Absolutely nothing. Oversight has nothing to do with this. This is about an unjustified, unwarned block. If you still have a problem with the ''oversight'' in that case, please raise it through the appropriate channels, but don't use it as an excuse to wear a chip on your shoulder in wholly unrelated issues. ] '']'' 20:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Unjustified, unwarned blocks? I've had a couple of those, didn't see any Arbs giving a damn about them though. Still don't, but then I'm not an admin and so it doesn't matter if my block log bets besmirched. ] (]) 00:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::You've seen a lot of unjustified, unwarned blocks where the blocking admin cuts off an established account with thousands of edits doesn't bother to make a single edit announcing the block on the user's block page or anywhere else? Those are rare. ] '']'' 04:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::Luke, don't misrepresent what I said. You're not ususally that dishonest. "had a couple" is not the same as "seen a lot". ] (]) 14:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


:I assumed it was so that the clerks would only see the incoming email and not be privy to the entire commitee's comments on the matter. While all functionaries and arbs sign the same NDA, operating on a ] basis is not at all uncommon in groups that deal with sensitive information. When I worked for the census we had to clear our debriefing room of literally everything because it was being used the next day by higher-ups from Washington who were visiting. They outranked all of us by several orders of mgnitude, but they had no reason to be looking at the non-anonymized personal data we had lying all over the place.
Nonsense, this is just the Arbcom overreacting. If it had not been an Admin blocked, the Arbcom would not have cared less. It is a near identical scenario to the Randy from Boise incident - then an Arb overreacted to a joke (a far mor obvious joke than this present one) and behaved in an underhand fashion, and all the other Arbs sprouted the most utter rubbish to get him off the hook. Amongst that rubbish was the statement and advice that it was right and proper for Admins to act first and question later. Which is what Viridae did - the only difference was unlike RLevse - Viridae did it in an honest and open manner. You can deny that all you like, but it is the truth and nothing will change that. You want one law for Arbs and another (ay whim) for everyone else. Well tough luck, that aint gonna happen! That Rlevse dares to pass a vote here is disgraceful and if you can't see that, then I am sorry for you. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:Conversely it would spare the clerks from having their inboxes flooded by every single arb comment, which as you know can be quite voluminous. ] ] 00:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. ] (]) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. ] (]) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I was thinking of material from before they were appointed, e.g. if there was a discussion involving the actions of user:Example in November and they become a c-clerk in December, they shouldn't be able to see the discussion even if the only comments were that the allegations against them are obviously ludicrous. I appreciate I didn't make this clear though. ] (]) 02:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Making arbcom-en a "firewall" from the arb deliberations would inhibit the c-clerk from performing the duties listed in the motion. I cannot see how it would be workable for them to remind arbs to do the thing the electorate voluntold them to do if the c-clerk cannot see whether they have done those things (e.g. coming to a conclusion on an appeal), and would add to the overhead of introducing this secretarial position (email comes in, c-clerk forwards to -internal, arbs discussion on -internal, come to conclusion, send an email ''back'' to -en, which the c-clerk then actions back to the user on arbcom-en). This suggested rationale also does not hold water to me. ] (]) 01:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Apologies{{snd}}if this was the interpretation, that's bad drafting on my part. The sole intention is that the new correspondence clerks won't see the ''past'' arbcom-en archives, which were emails sent to the committee on the understanding that only arbitrators would see those emails. C clerks will see everything that's newly sent on arbcom-en, including all deliberations held on arbcom-en, with the exception of anything that is so sensitive that the committee feels the need to restrict discussion to arbitrators (this should be fairly uncommon but covers the recusal concern above in a similar way as discussions about arbs who recuse sometimes get moved to arbcom-en-b). The C clerks will need to be able to see deliberations to be able to track pending matters and ensure that balls aren't being dropped, which could not happen unless they had access to the discussions{{snd}}this is a reasonable "need to know" because they are fulfilling a function that is hard to combine with serving as an active arbitrator. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 01:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Well, I clearly totally misread your intent there. I.... don't think I like the idea that unelected clerks can see everything the committee is doing. ] ] 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:FWIW, I oppose splitting arbcom-en a second time -- ] <sup>]</sup> 10:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Regarding 1.4, I think arbcom-en and -c are good ones for a c-clerk to have access to. -b probably doesn't need access ever, as it's used exclusively for work with recusals attached to it, which should be small enough for ArbCom to manage itself in the addition of a c-clerk. (This comment in private elicited the slight rework L235 made to the motion.) ] (]) 06:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::What does this mean – when was the ''first'' time? ] 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
:::@]: In 2018, arbcom-l became arbcom-en and the archives are in two different places. -- ] <sup>]</sup> 18:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)


----
:Wrong. I believe the concern over this block lies more in its "offsites" origins than the admin bit. ] '']'' 04:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Appointing one of the sitting arbitrators as "Coordinating Arbitrator" (motion 3) would be my recommended first choice of solution. We had a Coordinating Arbitrator&mdash;a carefully chosen title, as opposed to something like "Chair"&mdash;for a few years some time ago. It worked well, although it was not a panacea, and I frankly don't recollect why the coordinator role was dropped at some point. If there is a concern about over-reliance or over-burden on any one person, the role could rotate periodically (although I would suggest a six-month term to avoid too much time being spent on the mechanics of selecting someone and transitioning from one coordinator to the next). At any given time there should be at least one person on a 15-member Committee with the time and the skill-set to do the necessary record-keeping and nudging in addition to arbitrating, and this solution would avoid the complications associated with bringing another person onto the mailing list. I think there would be little community appetite for involving a WMF staff member (even one who is or was also an active Wikipedian) in the Committee's business; and if we are going to set the precedent of paying someone to handle tasks formerly handled by volunteers, with all due respect to the importance of ArbCom this is not where I would start. Regards, ] (]) 01:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for your comments. Regarding {{tqq|1=little community appetite}}{{snd}}that is precisely why we are inviting community input here on this page, as one way to assess how the community feels about the various options. Best, ''']''' (<small>aka</small> ] '''·''' ] '''·''' ]) 02:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
:I also like the idea of an arb or two taking on this role more than another layer of clerks. I'm sure former arbs would be great at it but the committee needs to handle its own internal business. ] ] 03:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::I think it is ideal for the arbitration committee to track its own work items and prompt its members for timely action, and may have written this some time ago on-wiki. However... years have passed now, and the arbitration committee elections aren't well-suited to selecting arbitrators with the requisite skill set (even if ] were made, the community can only go by the assurance of the candidate regarding the skills they possess and the time they have available). So I think it's worth looking at the option of keeping an arbitrator involved in an emeritus position if they have shown the aptitude and availability to help with administration. This could be an interim approach, until another solution is in place (maybe there can be more targeted recruiting of specific editors who, by their ongoing Misplaced Pages work, have demonstrated availability and tracking ability). ] (]) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)


2 and 4 don't seem like very good ideas to me. For 2, I think we need to maintain a firm distinction between community and WMF entities, and not do anything that even looks like blending them together. For 4, every time you involve money in something, you multiply your potential problems by a factor of at least ten (and why should that person get paid, when other people who contribute just as much time doing other things don't, and when, for that matter, even the arbs ''themselves'' don't?). For 1, I could see that being a good idea, to take some clerical/"grunt work" load off of ArbCom and give them more time for, well, actually ''arbitrating'', and functionaries will all already have signed the NDA. I don't have any problem with 3, but don't see why ArbCom can't just do it if they want to; all the arbs already have access to the information in question so it's not like someone is being approved to see it who can't already. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
::Why do you believe the arbitrators voting on this have any motives other than they state in the motion and their supporting comments? I don't see anything about "offsites origins". Can any non-recused arbitrators shed any light on this? ] (]) 07:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I don't. They ''do'' express it. This is like a half-baked IRC block. It was "reactionary," it lacked thought, care, and deliberation, he did not "look before he leap." Risker is pretty explicit that she is not concerned so much about the admin target of the block as the process it was arrived at: "The fact that Herostratus is an administrator is not, in my mind, a particularly significant factor in determining how poorly considered this block is; I would have found it fell significantly below the standards expected of administrators regardless of whether the account belonged to an editor or an administrator." It's all already there. ] '']'' 14:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


{{ping|CaptainEek}} Following up on your comments on motion 1, depending on which aspect of the proposed job one wanted to emphasize, you could also consider "amanuensis," "registrar," or "receptionist." (The best on-wiki title in my opinion, though we now are used to it so the irony is lost, will always be "bureaucrat"; I wonder who first came up with that one.) Regards, ] (]) 03:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Viridae blocked a user (1) based on a joke, (2) indefinitely, (3) without question or warning, (4) without talkepage explaination, and (5) as a "tax evasion" pretext for a suspicion that was manifestly false, if the admin had ever bothered to actually check. An admonishment is well-deserved. Don't do this.
:Or "cat-herder". --] (]) 00:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:Following parliamentary tradition, perhaps "whip". (Less whimsically: "recording secretary".) ] (]) 00:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
:{{yo|Newyorkbrad}}, if memory serves {{yo|Keegan}} knows who came up with it, and as I recall the story was that they wanted to come up with the most boring, unappealing name they could so not too many people would be applying for it all the time. ] ] 05:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)


----
That said, I thought unblocking yourself was one of our few bright-line rules. If you were hit with a bad block (which Herostratus was), you should remove it through request like everyone else. If Herostratus is so uninformed on our current practices, desysop is prudent. ] '']'' 19:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


So, just to usher in a topic-specific discussion because it has been alluded to many times without specifics being given, what was the unofficial position of ArbCom coordinator like? Who held this role? How did it function? Were other arbitrators happy with it? Was the Coordinator given time off from other arbitrator responsibilities? I assume this happened when an arbitrator just assumed the role but did it have a more formal origin? Did it end because no one wanted to pick up the responsibility? Questions, questions. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:: You may be right that there are things to legitimately criticise about this block but what Viridae is actually being admonished for is "For blocking another administrator without full knowledge of the situation at hand, and without attempting to contact the administrator to obtain such knowledge". This is explicitly concerned with the fact that the blockee is an administrator and nothing to do with the lack of a block notice on the users talk page. I don't see how the indefinite duration is relevant either and there's no mention of tax evasion (?). The idea seems to be that Viridae should have said "Hi, some people think your account is compromised, can you confirm that so I have the full facts?" - that ties in with your point 3 but I don't see the rest as covered by this motion. ] (]) 07:43, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree. I didn't participate in writing or voting for the motion. I would have written it in such a way to capture all the problems with the block. Perhaps it should be revised. I doubt it will be at this late date, however. ] '']'' 14:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


:I cannot speak for anything but my term. I performed this role for about 1.5 years of the 2 I was on the committee. To borrow an email I sent not long before I stepped off that touches on the topics in this whole set of motions (yes, this discussion isn't new):
Coren, I note you support a temporary desysop. Are you not opposed, in principle, to temporary desysops? ] (]) 22:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:* Daily, ~20 minutes: went into the list software and tagged the day's incoming new email chains with a label (think "upe", "duplicate", etc).
:I am, and I opposed it. You might have been misled by the fact that, with no support, the oppose header immediately follows the big bold "support" empty section? &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 23:57, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
:* Daily, ~10 minutes: took care of any filtered emails on the list (spam and not-spam).
:: My bad. Why is there a proposal where the proposer doesn't even support it up? ] (]) 11:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:* Monthly, 1-2 hours: trawled the specific categories of tags since the beginning of the month to add to an arbwiki page for tracking for "needs to get done". Did the inverse also (removed stuff from tracking that seemed either Done or Stale).
::: Lack of telepathy. When we throw up alternatives, we try to include the "reasonable spectrum" to find the place where consensus of the committee lies even if we don't, ourselves, believe each of those alternatives is viable in that case. I've occasionally posted remedies in cases which I did not support but knew they nevertheless were possible options. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 12:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:* Monthly, 15 minutes to prep: sent an email with a direct list of the open appeals and a reminder about the "needs doing" stuff (and a few months I highlighted a topic or two that were easy wins). This built off the daily work in a way that would be a long time if it were all done monthly instead of daily.
'''For the 100th time''': I really cannot see what the Arbcom considers Viridae has done wrong. The Arbcom set a precedent by saying it's right and proper to "act first and question later." If that is the correct procedure, and it's certainly their undisputed view that it is, in instances where an edit may reveal potentially embarrassing information concerning an editor (thus needing to be oversighted), how then, is that any different to a compromised account that may suddenly start to produce personal or embarrassing information? This looked to be a distinct possibility in this instance. I am still waiting for an satisfactory explanation to this - and I will not give up until I get it. <small><span style="border:1px solid Blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 11:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:I was also an appeals focused admin, which had further overhead here that I would probably put in the responsibility of this kind of arb. Other types of arbs probably had similar things they would have wanted to do this direction but I saw very little of such. Daily for this effort, probably another 15 minutes or so:
:* I copy-pasted appeal metadata from new appeals email to arbwiki
:* Started countdown timers for appeals appearing to be at consensus
:* Sent "easy" boilerplate emails e.g. "we got this appeal, we may be in touch" or "no way Jose you already appealed a month ago"
:* Sent results for the easy appeals post-countdown timer and filled in relevant metadata (easy appeals here usually translated to "declined" since this was the quick-n-easy daily work frame, not the long-or-hard daily work frame)
:(End extract from referenced email.) This second set is now probably a much-much lighter workload with the shedding of most CU appeals this year (which was 70% of the appeals by count during my term), and I can't say how much of this second group would be in the set of duties depending on which motion is decided above (or if even none of the motions are favored by the committee - you can see I've advocated for privately documenting the efforts of coordinating arbs rather than publicly documenting them regarding 3, and it wouldn't take much to get me to advocate against 2 and 4, I just know others can come to the right-ish conclusion on those two already; I'm pretty neutral on 1).
:Based on the feedback I got as I was going out the door, it was appreciated. I did see some feedback that this version of the role was insufficiently personal to each arb. The tradeoff for doing something more personalized to each other arb is either time or software (i.e. money). I did sometimes occasionally call out when other members had not yet chimed in on discussions. That was ad hoc and mostly focused on onwiki matters (case votes particularly), but occasionally I had to name names when doing appeals work because the arbs getting to the appeal first were split. In general the rest of the committee didn't name names (which touches on some discussion above). I think some arbs appreciated seeing their name in an email when they were needed.
:I was provided no formal relief from other matters. But as I discussed with one arb during one of the stressful cases of the term, I did provide relief informally for the duration of that case to that person for the stuff I was interested in, so I assume that either I in fact had no relief from other matters, or that I had relief but didn't know it (and just didn't ask for anyone else to do it - since I like to think I had it well enough in hand). :-) The committee is a team effort and not everyone on the team has the same skills, desire, or time to see to all other matters. (The probing above about arbs being insufficiently active is a worthwhile probe, to be certain.) To go further though, I definitely volunteered to do this work. Was it necessary work? I think so. I do not know what would have happened if I had not been doing it. (We managed to hit only one public snag related to timeliness during my term, which I count as a win; opinions may differ.)
:There is no formal origin to the role that I know of. Someone else with longer committee-memory would have to answer whether all/recent committees have had this type, and who they were, and why if not.
:I don't know how much of what I did lines up with what L235 had in mind proposing these motions. I do not think the work I did covers everything listed in the motions laid out. (I don't particularly need clarification on the point - it's a matter that will fall out in post-motion discussion.) ] (]) 08:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
::The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was ]. Regards, ] (]) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Archive zero: I love it! --] (]) 21:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Interestingly, that announcement also repeated the announcement at the top of the archive page that a departing arbitrator continued to assist the committee by co-ordinating the mailing list: acknowledging incoming emails and responding to senders with questions about them, and tracking issues to ensure they are resolved. So both a co-ordinator (plus a deputy!) and an arbitrator emeritus. ] (]) 23:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
::::{{tq|former arbitrator will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list.}} was probably a statement along the lines of "knows how to deal with Mailman". And I think you're getting that role mixed up with the actual person doing the work management: {{tq|the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its {{em|sitting}} arbitrators to act as coordinator}} (emphasis mine). ] (]) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at {{section link|Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0|Improving ArbCom co-ordination}}. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. ] (]) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Oh, I see that now. ] (]) 00:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::I think I agree with Izno regarding the coordinating arbitrator role. There's no problem letting the community that the role exists, but I don't think it's necessary for the role's responsibilities to be part of the public-facing guarantees being made to the community. If the role needs to expand, shrink, split into multiple roles, or otherwise change, the committee should feel free to just do it as needed. The committee has the flexibility to organize itself as it best sees fit. ] (]) 23:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I think this is the right approach. It doesn't need to be advertised who is coordinating activity on the mailing list, it just needs to get done. If it takes two people, fine, if they do it for six months and say they want out of the role, ask somebody else to do it. And so on. ] ] 23:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:::For instance, I don't think it's necessary to codify whether or not the coordinating arbitrator role is permanent. Just put a task on the schedule to review how the role is working out in nine months, and then modify the procedure accordingly as desired. ] (]) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
::One exception: the first bullet point regarding responding to communications and assigning a tracking identifier does involve the committee's interactions with the community. I feel, though, that for flexibility these guarantees can be made without codifying who does them, from the community's point of view. (It's fine of course to make them part of the coordinating arbitrator's tasks.) ] (]) 23:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
:Izno, this actually sounds like a helluva lot of work, maybe not minute-wise but mental, keeping track of everything so requests don't fall through the cracks. I think anyone assuming this role should get a break from, say, drafting ARBCOM cases if nothing else. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::It might be a lot of work, but it wasn't the bulk of the work, even for the work that I was doing. There was a lot more steps to being the appeal-focused admin above. ] (]) 04:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::You made me laugh, {{u|Liz}}. That sounds like my normal start-of-day routine, to be accompanied by a cup of tea and, perhaps, a small breakfast. I'd expect most arbitrators to be reading the mail on a daily basis, unless they are inactive for some reason; the difference here is the tagging/flagging of messages and clearing the filters, which probably adds about 10-12 minutes. I'll simply say that any arb who isn't prepared to spend 30-45 minutes/day reading emails probably shouldn't be an arb. That's certainly a key part of the role. ] (]) 04:43, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::+1. In my ] I said an hour a day for emails but that included far more appeals than the committee gets now. Best, ] (]) 04:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Never mind reading emails, the bulk of my private ArbCom time was spent on processing them: doing checks, reporting results, and otherwise responding to other work. You can get away with just reading internal emails, but it's going to surprise your fellow arbs if you don't pipe up with some rational thought when you see the committee thinking about something personally objectionable and the first time they hear about it is when motions have been posted and are waiting for votes. ] (]) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::::Right now, I check my email account about once a week. I guess that will change if I'm elected to the committee. It would have helped to hear all of these details before the election. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
::::My hour included time to respond to emails, though I also note you're not going particularly deep on anything with that time (at least when ArbCom had more appeals). Best, ] (]) 16:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:56, 24 December 2024

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Palestine-Israel articles 5 (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 21 Dec 2024 11 Jan 2025
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Arbitrator workflow motions 1 December 2024

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Arbitrator workflow motions

Workflow motions: Arbitrator discussion

  • I am proposing these three motions for discussion, community input, and a vote. Each seeks to improve ArbCom's functioning by providing for the performance of basic administrative responsibilities that sometimes go neglected, which, in my opinion, if successful, would significantly improve ArbCom's overall capacity. Motivation: We've known about the need for improvements to our workflow and capacity for some years now – I wrote about some of these suggestions in my 2022 ACE statement. It's a regular occurrence that someone will email in with a request or information and, because of the press of other work and because nobody is responsible for tracking and following up on the thread, we will let the thread drop without even realizing it and without deciding that no action is needed. We can each probably name a number of times this has happened, but one recent public example of adverse consequences from such a blunder was highlighted in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, which was partially caused by our failure to address a private request that had been submitted to us months earlier. Previous efforts: We've experimented with a number of technological solutions to this problem during my four years on the Committee, including: (a) tracking matters on a Trello board or on a private Phabricator space; (b) tracking threads in Google Groups with tags; (c) requesting the development of custom technical tools; (d) reducing the appeals we hear; and (e) tracking appeals more carefully on arbwiki. Some of these attempts have been moderately successful, or showed promise for a time before stalling, but none of them have fully and fundamentally addressed this dropping-balls issue, which has persisted, and which in my opinion requires a human solution rather than just a technological solution. Rationale: The work we need done as framed below (e.g. bumping email threads) isn't fundamentally difficult or sensitive, but it's essential, and it's structurally hard for an active arbitrator to be responsible for doing it. For example, I could never bring myself to bump/nag others to opine on matters that I hadn't done my best to resolve yet myself. But actually doing the research to substantively opine on an old thread (especially as the first arb) can take hours of work, and I'm more likely to forget about it before I have the time to resolve it, and then it'll get lost in the shuffle. So it's best to somewhat decouple the tracking/clerical function from the substantive arb-ing work. Other efforts: There is one more technological solution for which there was interest among arbitrators, which was to get a CRM/ticketing system – basically, VRTS but hopefully better. I think this could help and would layer well with any of the other options, but there are some open questions (e.g., which one to get, how to pay for it, whether we can get all arbs to adopt it), and I don't think that that alone would address this problem (see similar attempts discussed above), so I think we should move ahead with one of these three motions now and adopt a ticketing system with whichever of the other motions we end up going with. These three motions are the result of substantial internal workshopping, and have been variously discussed (as relevant) with the functionaries, the clerks, and the Wikimedia Foundation (on a call in November). Before that, we held an ideation session on workflow improvements with the Foundation in July and have had informal discussions for a number of years. I deeply appreciate the effort and input that has gone into these motions from the entire committee and from the clerks and functionaries, and hope we can now pass one of them. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
    • One other thing I forgot to suggest—I'd be glad to write motions 1 or 2 up as a trial if any arb prefers, perhaps for 6-12 months, after which the motion could be automatically repealed unless the committee takes further action by motion to permanently continue the motion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Workflow motions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Workflow motions: Implementation notes

Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion name Support Oppose Abstain Passing Support needed Notes
Motion 1: Correspondence clerks 2 3 0 Currently not passing 4 One support vote contingent on 1.4 passing
Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener" 1 2 1 Currently not passing 4
Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant" 0 1 3 Currently not passing 4
Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial) 0 3 1 Currently not passing 5
Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly 1 2 1 Currently not passing 4
Motion 2: WMF staff support 0 5 0 Cannot pass Cannot pass
Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators 4 0 0 Currently not passing 2
Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks 0 3 0 Currently not passing 6
Notes


Motion 1: Correspondence clerks

Nine-month trial

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it:

Correspondence clerks

The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. Correspondence clerks must meet the Wikimedia Foundation's criteria for access to non-public personal data and sign the Foundation's non-public information confidentiality agreement.

Correspondence clerks shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.

The specific responsibilities of correspondence clerks shall include:

  • Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
  • Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
  • Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
  • Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
  • Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of correspondence clerks shall not include:

  • Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
  • Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks.

All correspondence clerks shall hold concurrent appointments as arbitration clerks and shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions Support votes needed for majority
0 6
1–2 5
3–4 4
Support
  1. This is my first choice and falls within ArbCom's community-granted authority to approve and remove access to mailing lists maintained by the Arbitration Committee and to designate individuals for particular tasks or roles and maintain a panel of clerks to assist with the smooth running of its functions. Currently, we have arbitration clerks to help with on-wiki work, but most of ArbCom's workload is private (on arbcom-en), and our clerks have no ability to help with that because they can't access any of ArbCom's non-public work. It has always seemed strange to me to have clerks for on-wiki work, but not for the bulk of the work which is off-wiki (and which has always needed more coordination help). When consulting the functionaries, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that four functionaries (including three former arbitrators) expressed interest in volunteering for this role. This would be lower-intensity than serving as an arbitrator, but still essential to the functioning of the committee. We already have a number of ex-arbs on the clerks-l mailing list to advise and assist, and this seems like a natural extension of that function. The Stewards have a somewhat similar "Steward clerk" role, although ArbCom correspondence clerks would be a higher-trust position (functionary-level appointments only). I see this as the strongest option because the structure is familiar (analogous to our existing clerks, but for off-wiki business), because we have trusted functionaries and former arbs interested who could well discharge these responsibilities, and because I think we would benefit from separating the administrative responsibility from the substantive responsibility. The cons I see are that volunteer correspondence clerks might be less reliable than paid staff and that we'd be adding one or two (ish) people to the arbcom-en list. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. Contingent on 1.4 passing. This option was not my first choice, and I'm inclined to try having a coordinating Arb first, if we can get a volunteer/set of volunteers. Given that the new term should infuse the Committee with more life and vigor, we may find a coordinating Arb, or another solution. But I think we should put this in our toolbox for the moment. This doesn't force us to appoint someone, just gives us the ability and outlines the position. CaptainEek 05:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I don't think we should extend access to the mailing list and the private information it contains beyond what is absolutely necessary. I understand the reasoning behind former arbitrators in such a role as they previously had such access, but people emailing the Arbitration Committee should have confidence that private information is kept need to know and that only the current arbitrators evaluating and making decisions based on that private information have ongoing access to it. - Aoidh (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. This is limited to former arbitrators for good reasons, most of them privacy-related. But the same concerns that led to this proposal being limited to former arbitrators are also arguments against doing this at all. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain

Motion 1: Arbitrator views and discussions

  • I'd be glad changing this to only appoint former arbs, if that would tip anyone's votes. Currently, it's written as "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee)" for flexibility if needed, but I imagine we would only really appoint former arbs if available, except under unusual circumstances, because they understand how the mailing list discussions go and have previously been elected to handle the same private info. I am also open to calling it something other than "correspondence clerk"; that just seemed like a descriptive title. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
    I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. CaptainEek 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
    @CaptainEek: I have changed the motion to make only former arbs eligible. If anyone preferred broader (all funct) eligibility, I've added an alternative motion 1.1 below, which if any arb does prefer it, they should uncollapse and vote for it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I also think that if we adopt this we should choose a better name. I know Barkeep49 meant this suggestion as a bit of a joke, but I actually think he was on the money when he suggested "scrivener." I like "adjutant" even more, which I believe he also suggested. They capture the sort of whimsical Misplaced Pages charm evoked by titles like Most Pluperfect Labutnum while still being descriptive, and not easily confused for a traditional clerk. CaptainEek 03:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
    Whimsy is important -- Guerillero 08:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
  • @CaptainEek and Guerillero: Per the above discussion points, I have (a) proposed two alternative names below that were workshopped among some arbs ("scrivener" on the more whimsical side and "coordination assistant" on the less whimsical side; see motions 1.2a and 1.2b), and (b) made this motion a nine-month trial, after which time the section is automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to extend it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I plan on supporting motion 1 over anything else. I've spent a week just getting onto all the platforms, and I'm already kind of shocked that this is how we do things. Not only is there a lot to keep track of, all of the information moves unintuitively between different places in a way that makes it very difficult to keep up unless you're actively plugged in enough to be on top of the ball – which I don't think anyone can be all the time. I just don't think a coordinating arb is sufficient: we need someone who can keep us on track without having to handle all of the standard work of reviewing evidence, deliberating, and making an informed decision. (Better-organized tech would also be great, but I'd need to spend a lot more time thinking about how it could be redone.) I understand the privacy concerns, but I don't think this represents a significant breach of confidentiality: people care more whether their report gets handled properly than whether it goes before 15 trusted people or 16. So, I'll be voting in favor of motion 1, and maybe motion 3 will be a distant second. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Scope and responsibilities
  2. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Procedures and roles

Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries

If any arbitrator prefers this way, unhat this motion and vote for it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

If motion 1 passes, replace the text The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. with the text The Arbitration Committee may appoint, from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee), one or more users to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee..

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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Support
Oppose
Abstain


Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "scriveners".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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Support
  1. Nicely whimsical, and not as likely to be confusing as correspondence clerk. CaptainEek 04:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. I think correspondence clerk is fine if role is something we're going with, it's less ambiguous as to what it entails than scrivener. - Aoidh (talk) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. I have never heard that word before; at least "correspondence" and "clerk" are somewhat common in the English Misplaced Pages world. When possible, I think we should use words people don't have to look up in dictionaries. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain
  1. I think that because it's more archaic and possibly less serious, I disprefer this to either "coordination assistant" or "correspondence clerk", but would ultimately be perfectly happy with it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "coordination assistants".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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1–2 5
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Oppose
  1. bleh. CaptainEek 04:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain
  1. I am indifferent between this and "correspondence clerk". Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. If we're going to use a role like this, either this or correspondence clerk is fine. - Aoidh (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. That would be okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)

If motion 1 passes, omit the text for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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Oppose
  1. I recently experimented with sunset clauses and think that frankly a lot more of what we do should have such time limits that require us to stop and critically evaluate if a thing is working. CaptainEek 04:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. If this change is necessary, there should be a review of it after a reasonable trial period to see what does and does not work. - Aoidh (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain
  1. I have no preference as to whether this is permanent or a trial. I do think that nine months is a good length for the trial if we choose to have one: not too long to lock in a year's committee; not too short to make it unworthwhile. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly

If motion 1 passes, strike the following text:

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

And replace it with the following:

To that end, correspondence clerks shall be added to the arbcom-en mailing list. The Committee shall continue to maintain at least one mailing list accessible only by arbitrators.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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Support
  1. Much less trouble to have them on the main list than to split the lists. CaptainEek 04:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Access to private information should be as limited as possible to only what is strictly necessary to perform such a task, and I don't see a allowing full access to the contents of the current list necessary for this. I'd rather not split the list, but between that and giving full access then if we're going to have a correspondence clerk, then it needs to be split. - Aoidh (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. Motion 1 is already problematic for privacy reasons; this would make it worse. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain
  1. I would not really object to this. C-clerks (or whatever we call them) are former arbs and have previously been on arbcom-en in any event, so it doesn't seem that like a big deal to do this. On the other hand, I would understand if folks prefer the split. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Arbitrator discussion

Motion 2: WMF staff support

The Arbitration Committee requests that the Wikimedia Foundation Committee Support Team provide staff support for the routine administration and organization of the Committee's mailing list and non-public work.

The selected staff assistants shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work. Staff assistants shall perform their functions under the direction of the Arbitration Committee and shall not represent the Wikimedia Foundation in the course of their support work with the Arbitration Committee or disclose the Committee's internal deliberations except as directed by the Committee.

The specific responsibilities of the staff assistants shall include, as directed by the Committee:

  • Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
  • Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
  • Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
  • Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
  • Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of staff assistants shall not include:

  • Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
  • Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the selection of staff assistants, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and staff assistants.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by staff assistants.

Staff assistants shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

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  1. I appreciate that Kevin put this together, and I think this would be very helpful, maybe even the most helpful, way to ensure that we stayed on top of the ball. But just because it would achieve one goal doesn't make it a good idea. A full version of my rationale is on the ArbList, for other Arbs. The short, WP:BEANS version is that this would destroy the line between us and the Foundation, which undoes much of our utility. CaptainEek 01:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. Per my comment on motion 4. - Aoidh (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
  4. I like the general idea of the WMF using its donated resources to support the community that made the donations possible. I am uncomfortable with putting WMF staff in front of ArbCom's e-mail queue, however, as this would come with unavoidable conflicts of interest and a loss of independence. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
  5. The help would be useful, but the consequences would be detrimental to both ArbCom & WMF. Some space between us is necessary for ArbCom's impartiality & for the WMF's section 230 position. Cabayi (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain

Motion 2: Arbitrator views and discussions

  • I am quite open to this idea. A professional staff member assisting the committee might be the most reliable and consistent way to achieve this goal. ArbCom doesn't need the higher-intensity support that the WMF Committee Support Team provides other committees like AffCom and the grant committees, but having somebody to track threads and bump stalled discussions would be quite helpful. I'm going to wait to see if there's any community input on this motion before voting on it, though. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section:

Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee shall, from time to time, designate one or more arbitrators to serve as the Committee's coordinating arbitrators.

Coordinating arbitrators shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.

The specific responsibilities of coordinating arbitrators shall include:

  • Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
  • Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
  • Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
  • Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
  • Performing similar routine administrative and clerical functions.

A coordinating arbitrator may, but is not required to, state an intention to abstain on some or all matters before the Committee without being listed as an "inactive" arbitrator.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
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Support
  1. This is currently my first-choice option; we have unofficially in the past had arbitrators take on specific roles (e.g. tracking unblock requests, responding to emails, etc) and it seemed to work fairly well. Having those rules be more "official" seems like the best way to make sure someone is responsible for these things, without needing to expand the committee or the pool of people with access to private information. Primefac (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. I may still vote for the clerks option, but I think this is probably the minimum of what we need. Will it be suffucient...aye, there's the rub. CaptainEek 01:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. Of the motions proposed, this one is the one I'd most support. It doesn't expand the number of people who can view the ArbCom mailing list beyond those on ArbCom, and creates a structure that may improve how the mailing list is handled. - Aoidh (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
  4. Per Primefac. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose
Abstain

Motion 3: Arbitrator views and discussions

  • I am also open to this idea, though I am worried that it will be insufficient and haven't made up my mind on my vote yet. This idea was floated by a former arbitrator from back when the committee did have a coordinating arbitrator, though that role kind of quietly faded away. The benefits of this approach include that there's no need to bring anyone else onto the list. This motion also allows (but does not require) arbs to take a step back from active arb business to focus on the coordination role, which could help with the bifurcation I mention above. Cons include that this could be the least reliable option; that it's possible no arb is interested, or has the capacity to do this well; and that it's hard to be both a coordinator on top of the existing difficult role of serving as an active arb. I personally think this is better than nothing, but probably prefer one of the other two motions to actually add some capacity. Other ideas that have been floated include establishing a subcommittee of arbitrators responsible for these functions. My same concerns would apply there, but if there's interest, I'm glad to draft and propose a motion to do that; any other arb should also feel free to propose such a motion of their own. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I was partial to this idea, though it was not my first choice. I proposed that we might make it a rotating position, à la the presidency of the UN security council. Alternatively, a three person subcommittee might also be the way to go, so that the position isn't dependent on one person's activity. I like this solution in general because we already basically had it, with the coordinating arbitrator role. CaptainEek 01:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
    • @CaptainEek: I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I don't love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I am leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name 😄 theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
      My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
      I think formalizing it does move the needle on someone doing it. Two possible benefits of the formalization:
  • It makes clear that this is a valuable role, one that an arb should feel is a sufficient and beneficial way to spend their time. It also communicates this to the community, which might otherwise ask an arb running for reelection why they spent their time coordinating (rather than on other arb work).
  • It gives "permission" for coordinating arbs to go inactive on other business if they wish.
These two benefits make this motion more than symbolic in my view. My hesitation on it remains that it may be quite insufficient relative to motion 1. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks

In the event that "Motion 1: Correspondence clerks" passes, the Arbitration Committee shall request that the Wikimedia Foundation provide grants payable to correspondence clerks in recognition of their assistance to the Committee.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Majority reference
Abstentions Support votes needed for majority
0 6
1–2 5
3–4 4
Support
Oppose
  1. Misplaced Pages should remain a volunteer activity. If we cannot find volunteers to do the task, then perhaps it ought not be done in the first place. CaptainEek 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
  2. We should not have a clerk paid by the WMF handling English Misplaced Pages matters in this capacity. - Aoidh (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
  3. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Abstain

Motion 4: Arbitrator views and discussions

Community discussion

Will correspondence clerks be required to sign an NDA? Currently clerks aren't. Regardless of what decision is made this should probably be in the motion. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Good catch. I thought it was implied by "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps" – who all sign NDAs as a condition to access functionaries-en and the CUOS tools; see Misplaced Pages:Functionaries (Functionary access requires that the user sign the confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information.)  – but I've made it explicit now. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
You're right that that was there, but I missed it on my first readthrough of the rules (thinking correspondence clerks would be appointed from the clerk team instead). * Pppery * it has begun... 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Why does "coordinating arbitrators" need a (public) procedures change? Izno (talk) 18:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

As Primefac mentioned above, it seems reasonable to assume that having something written down "officially" might help make sure that the coordinating arbitrator knows what they are responsible for. In any event, it probably can't hurt. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
It is a pain in the ass to get formal procedures changed. There is an internal procedures page: I see 0 reason not to use it if you want to clarify what the role of this arbitrator is. Izno (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
On top of that, this doesn't actually change the status quo much if at all. It is almost entirely a role definition for an internal matter, given "we can make an arb a CA, but we don't have to have one" in it's "from time to time" clause. This just looks like noise to anyone reading ARBPRO who isn't on ArbCom: the public doesn't need to know this arb even exists, though they might commonly be the one responding to emails so they might get a sense there is such an arb. Izno (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

While I appreciate that some functionaries are open to volunteering for this role, this borders on is a part-time secretarial job and ought to be compensated as such. The correspondence clerks option combined with WMF throwing some grant money towards compensation would be my ideal. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this suggestion – I've added motion 4 to address this suggestion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

In the first motion the word "users" in "The Committee shall establish a process to allow users to, in unusual circumstances" is confusing, it should probably be "editors". In the first and second motions, it should probably be explicit whether correspondence clerks/support staff are required, permitted or prohibited to:

  • Share statistical information publicly
  • Share status information (publicly or privately) with correspondents who wish to know the status of their request.
  • Share status information (publicly or privately) about the status of a specific request with someone other than the correspondent.
    For this I'm thinking of scenarios like where e.g. an editor publicly says they emailed the Committee about something a while ago, and one or more other editors asks what is happening with it.

I think my preference would be for 1 or 2, as these seem likely to be the more reliable. Neither option precludes there also being a coordinating arbitrator doing some of the tasks as well. Thryduulf (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these suggestions. I've changed "users" to "editors". The way I'm intending these motions to be read, correspondence clerks or staff assistants should only disclose information as directed by the committee. I think the details of which information should be shared upon whose request in routine cases could be decided later by the committee, with the default being "ask ArbCom before disclosing until the committee decides to approve routine disclosures in certain cases", because it's probably hard to know in advance which categories will be important to allow. I'm open to including more detail if you think that's important to include at this stage, though, and I'd welcome hearing why if so. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I see your point, but I think it worth clarifying certain things in advance before they become an issue to avoid unrealistic or mistaken expectations of the c-clerks by the community. Point 1 doesn't need to be specified in advance, maybe something like "communicating information publicly as directed by the Committee" would be useful to say in terms of expectation management or maybe it's still to specific? I can see both sides of that.
Point 2 I think is worth establishing quickly and while it is on people's minds. Waiting for the committee to make up its mind before knowing whether they can give a full response to a correspondent about this would be unfair to both the correspondent and clerk I think. This doesn't necessarily have to be before adoption, but if not it needs to be very soon afterwards.
Point 3 is similar, but c-clerks and community members knowing exactly what can and cannot be shared, and especially being able to point to something in writing about what cannot be said publicly, has the potential to reduce drama e.g. if there is another situation similar to Billed Mammal's recent case request. Thryduulf (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

What justification is there for the WMF to spend a single additional dollar on the workload of a project-specific committee whose workload is now demonstrably smaller than at any time in its history? (Noting here that there is a real dollar-cost to the support already being given by WMF, such as the monthly Arbcom/T&S calls that often result in the WMF accepting requests for certain activities.) And anyone who is being paid by the WMF is responsible to the WMF as the employer, not to English Misplaced Pages Arbcom.

I think Arbcom is perhaps not telling the community some very basic facts that are leading to their efforts to find someone to take responsibility for its organization, which might include "we have too many members who aren't pulling their weight" or "we have too many members who, for various reasons that don't have to do with Misplaced Pages, are inactive", or "we have some tasks that nobody really wants to do". There's no indication that any of these solutions would solve these kinds of problems, and I think that all of these issues are factors that are clearly visible to those who follow Arbcom on even an occasional basis. Arbitrators who are inactive for their own reasons aren't going to become more active because someone's organizing their mail. Arbitrators who don't care enough to vote on certain things aren't any more likely to vote if someone is reminding them to vote in a non-public forum; there's no additional peer pressure or public guilt-tripping. And if Arbcom continues to have tasks that nobody really wants to do, divest those tasks. Arbcom has successfully done that with a large number of tasks that were once its responsibility.

I think you can do a much better job of making your case. Risker (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a need to do something as poor communication and extremely slow replies, if replies are made at all, has been an ongoing issue for the committee for some time. However I agree that asking the foundation to pay someone to do it is going too far. The point that if you are paid by the foundation, you work for them and not en.wp or arbcom is a compelling one. There's also a slippery slope argument to be made in that if we're paying these people, shouldn't we pay the committee? If we're paying the committee, shouldn't we pay the arbitration clerks....and so on. Just Step Sideways 20:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
I fully share Risker's concern about a paid WMF staffer who, no matter how well-intentioned, will be answerable to the WMF and not ARBCOM. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
The 2023-2024 committee is much more middle aged and has less university students and retirees, who oftentimes have more free time, than the 2016-2017 committee. -- Guerillero 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is public, when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public more than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
During my first term it was Roger Davies. He was barely a presence on-wiki but he kept the whole committee on point and up-to-date about what was pending. Trypto is right that it isn't enforceable, it is more a matter of applying pressure to either do the job or move oneself to the inactive list.
I also think the committee can and should be more proactive about declaring other arbs inactive even when they are otherwise present on-wiki or on the mailing list" That would probably require a procedures change, but I think it would make sense. If there is a case request, proposed decision, or other matter that requires a vote before the committee and an arb doesn't comment on it for ten days or more, they clearly don't have the time and/or inclination to do so and should be declared inactive on that matter so that their lack of action does not further delay the matter. It would be nice if they would just do so themselves, or just vote "abstain" on everything, which only takes a few minutes, but it seems it has not been happening in practice. Just Step Sideways 00:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- Guerillero 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. Risker (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which way they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
That's something that's hard to know or verify, even for the other arbs. The arbs only know what the other arbs tell them, and I've never seen anyone admit to that. Just Step Sideways 23:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the timing for this is wrong. The committee is about to have between 6 and 9 new members (depending on whether Guerillero, Eek, and Primefac get re-elected). In addition it seems likely that some number of former arbs are about to rejoin the committee. This committee - basically the committee with the worst amount of active membership of any 15 member committee ever - seems like precisely the wrong one to be making large changes to ongoing workflows in December. Izno's idea of an easier to try and easier to change/abandon internal procedure for the coordinating arb feels like something appropriate to try now. The rest feel like it should be the prerogative of the new committee to decide among (or perhaps do a different change altogether). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Kevin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed he was doing this now because he will not be on the committee a month from now.
That being said it could be deliberately held over, or conversely, possibly fall victim to the inactivity you mention and still be here for the new committee to decide. Just Step Sideways 23:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Since WP:ACE2024 elections are currently taking place it makes sense to have the incoming arbitrators weigh in on changes like this. They are the ones that will be affected by any of these motions passing rather than the outgoing arbitrators. - Aoidh (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Oh I assumed that's why he was doing it also. I am also assuming he's doing it to try and set up the future committees for success. That doesn't change my point about why this is the wrong time and why a different way of trying the coordinator role (if it has support) would be better. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Regarding "timing is wrong": I think you both would agree that these are a long time coming – we have been working on these and related ideas for years (I ran on a related idea in 2022). I do think there's never quite a good time. Very plausibly, the first half of the year is out because the new arbs will need that time to learn how the processes work and think about what kinds of things should be changed vs. kept the same. And then it might be another few months as the new ArbCom experiments with less-consequential changes like the ones laid about at the top: technological solutions, trying new ways of tracking stuff, etc., before being confident in the need for something like set out above. And then things get busy for other reasons; there will be weeks or even occasionally months when the whole committee is overtaken by some urgent situation. I've experienced a broadly similar dynamic a few times now; this is all to say that there's just not much time or space in the agenda for this kind of stuff in a one-year cycle, which would be a shame because I do think this is important to take on.
I do think that it should be the aspiration of every year's committee to leave the succeeding committee some improvements in the functioning of the committee based on lessons learned that year, so it would be nice to leave the next committee with this. That said, if arbitrators do feel that we should hold this over to the new committee, I'm not really in a position to object – as JSS says, this is my last year on the committee, so it's not like this will benefit me. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Here's what I'll leave you with overall. What you may see as a downside – these proposals being voted on relatively late in the year – I see as a significant possible upside. Members of this committee are able to draw on at least eleven months' experience as arbitrators in deciding what is working well and what might warrant change – experience which is important in determining what kinds of processes and systems lead to effective and ineffective outcomes. That experience is important: Although I have served on ArbCom for four years and before that served as an ArbCom clerk for almost six years, I still learn more every year about what makes this committee click. If what really concerns you is locking in the new committee to a particular path, as I wrote above, I'm very open to structuring this as a trial run that will end of its own accord unless the committee takes action to make it permanent. This would ensure that the new committee retains full control over whether to continue, discontinue, or adapt these changes. But in my book, it does not make sense to wait. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
  • As a 3-term former arb and a 3-term current ombuds commissioner, I've had experience of about a dozen Wikimedia committee "new intakes". I am quite convinced that these proposals are correctly timed. Process changes are better put in place prior to new appointees joining, so that they are not joining at a moment of upheaval. Doing them late in the day is not objectionable and momentum often comes at the end of term. If the changes end up not working (doubtful), the new committee would just vote to tweak the process or go back. I simply do not understand the benefit of deferring proposals into a new year, adding more work to the next year's committee. That surely affects the enthusiasm and goodwill of new members. As for the point that the '24 committee is understaffed and prone to indecision: argumentum ad hominem. If Kevin's proposals work, they work. If anything, it might be more difficult to agree administrative reforms when the committee is back at full staff. arcticocean ■ 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
    If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
    You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. arcticocean ■ 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
    I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
    While I think a solution such as adopting ZenDesk is something that could face objections, personally I think the idea of having someone track a list of work items for a committee is a pretty standard way of working (including pushing for timely resolution, something that really needs a person, not just a program). From an outsider's perspective, it's something I'd expect. It doesn't matter to non-arbitrators who does the tracking, so the committee should feel free to change that decision internally as often as it feels is effective. I'd rather there be a coordinating arbitrator in place in the interim until another solution is implemented, than have no one tracking work items in the meantime. isaacl (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Just to double check that I'm reading motion 1 correctly, it would still be possible to email the original list (for arbitrators only) if, for example, you were raising a concern about something the correspondence clerks should not be privy to (ie: misuse of tools by a functionary), correct? Granted, I think motion 3 is probably the simpler option here, but in the event motion 1 passes, is the understanding I wrote out accurate? EggRoll97 02:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@EggRoll97 Yes, but probably only after an additional step. The penultimate paragraph of motions 1 and 2 says The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks . No details are given about what this process would be, but one possibility would I guess be something like contacting an individual arbitrator outlining clearly why you think the c-clerks should not be privy to whatever it is. If they agree they'll tell you how to submit your evidence (maybe they'll add your email address to a temporary whitelist). Thryduulf (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In my experience working on committees and for non-profits, typically management is much more open to offering money for software solutions that they are told can resolve a problem than agreeing to pay additional compensation for new personnel. Are you sure there isn't some tracking solution that could resolve some of these problems? Liz 07:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In our tentative discussions with WMF, it sounded like it would be much more plausible to get a 0.1-0.2 FTE of staffer time than it would to get us 15 ZenDesk licenses, which was also somewhat surprising to me. That wasn't a firm response – if we went back and said we really need this, I'm guessing it'd be plausible. And we've never asked about compensating c-clerks – that was an idea that came from Voorts's comment above, and I proposed it for discussion, not because I necessarily support it but because I think it's worth discussion, and I certainly don't think it's integral to the c-clerk proposal. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? Liz 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:
  • On volunteers: As I wrote above, four functionaries (including three former arbs) expressed initial-stage interest when this was floated when I consulted functionaries – which is great and was a bit unexpected, and which is why I wrote it up this way. Arbitrators will know that my initial plan from previous months/years did not involve limiting this to functionaries, to have a broader pool of applicants. But since we do have several interested functs, and they are already trusted to hold NDA'd private information (especially the former arbs who have previously been elected to access to this very list), I thought this would be a good way to make this a more uncontroversial proposal.
  • How many to appoint? I imagine one or two if it was up to me. One would be ideal (I think it's like 30 minutes of work per day ish, max), but two for redundancy might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results – because the c-clerk would be responsible for tracking matters, not actually attempting to resolve them, that's a lot less work than serving as an arb. It does require more consistency than most arbs have to put in, though.
  • On compensating: Yeah, I'm not sure I'll end up supporting the idea, but I don't think it's unprecedented in the sense that you're thinking. Correspondence clerks aren't editing; none of the tasks listed in the motion require on-wiki edits. And there are plenty of WMF grants that have gone to off-wiki work for the benefit of projects; the first example I could think of was m:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/UTRS User Experience Development (ID: 22215192) but I know there are many.
Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work?. No, the actual work takes a lot more time and effort because each arb has to read, understand and form opinions on many different things, and the committee needs to discuss most of those things, which will often re-reading and re-evaluating based on the points raised. Then in many cases there needs to be a vote. What the "one-person, 30 minutes a day" is referring to is just the meta of what tasks are open, what the current status of it is, who needs to opine on it, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, I realized I misunderstood it. I see that this is a relatively lightweight proposal, perhaps it could work but it probably won't help much either.
@L235 I have been thinking of splitting ArbCom into Public ArbCom and Private ArbCom. I see Public ArbCom as being able to function without the tools as @Worm That Turned advocated, focused more on complex dispute resolution. I see Private ArbCom as high-trust roles with NDAs, privy to WMF and overseeing Public ArbCom. Both ArbComs are elected separately as 15-members bodies, and both will be left with about half the current authority and responsibility. Kenneth Kho (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. CaptainEek 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree, having someone managing the work could really help smooth things out. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
My first thought is that cleanly splitting arbcom would be very difficult. For example what happens if there is an open public case and two-thirds of the way through the evidence phase someone discovers and wishes to submit private evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
You raised good points that I did not address. I think that a way to do this would be to follow how Oversighters have the authority to override Admins that they use sparingly. Private ArbCom could have the right to receive any private evidence regarding an ongoing case on Public ArbCom, and Private ArbCom will have discretions to override Public ArbCom remedies without explanation other than something like "per private evidence". Private ArbCom would need to familiarize themselves with the case a bit, but this is mitigated by the fact that they only concerned with the narrow parts. Private ArbCom could have the authority to take the whole Public ArbCom case private if it deems that private evidence affect many parties. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
12 candidates for 9 open seats is sufficient. But it hardly suggests we have so many people that we could support 30 people (even presuming some additional people would run under the split). Further, what happens behind the scenes already strains the trust of the community. But at least the community can see the public actions as a reminder of "well this person hasn't lost it completely while on ArbCom". I think it would be much harder to sustain trust under this split. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I honestly like the size of 12-member committee, too many proverbial cooks spoil the proverbial broth. I did think about the trust aspect, as the community has been holding ArbCom under scrutiny, but at the same time I consider that the community has been collegial with Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters. Private ArbCom would be far less visible, with Public ArbCom likely taking the heat for contentious decisions. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree with L235 regarding whether this is all the work and none of the authority: it does not come with all the responsibility that being an Arb comes with either. This role does not need to respond to material questions or concerns about arbitration matters and does not need to read and weigh the voluminous case work to come to a final decision. The c-clerk will need to keep up on emails and will probably need to have an idea of what's going on in public matters, but that was definitely not the bulk of the (stressful?) work of an arbitrator. Izno (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
@Liz well that's what I thought. I figured that ZenDesk was the winningest solution, until the Foundation made it seem like ZenDesk licenses were printed on gold bars. We did do some back of the envelope calculations, and it is decidedly expensive. Still...I have a hard time believing those ZenDesk licenses really cost more than all that staff time. I think we'll have to do some more convincing of the Foundation on that front, or implement a different solution. CaptainEek 01:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I touched upon the idea of using former arbitrators to do administrative tasks on the arbitration committee talk page, and am also pleasantly surprised to hear there is some interest. I think this approach may be the most expeditious way to put something in place at least for the interim. (On a side note, I urge people not to let the term "c-clerk" catch on. It sounds like stuttering, or someone not good enough to be an A-level clerk. More importantly, it would be quite an obscure jargon term.) isaacl (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)


To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

Something I raised in the functionary discussion was that this doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for this split here? Izno (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I assumed it was so that the clerks would only see the incoming email and not be privy to the entire commitee's comments on the matter. While all functionaries and arbs sign the same NDA, operating on a need to know basis is not at all uncommon in groups that deal with sensitive information. When I worked for the census we had to clear our debriefing room of literally everything because it was being used the next day by higher-ups from Washington who were visiting. They outranked all of us by several orders of mgnitude, but they had no reason to be looking at the non-anonymized personal data we had lying all over the place.
Conversely it would spare the clerks from having their inboxes flooded by every single arb comment, which as you know can be quite voluminous. Just Step Sideways 00:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. Izno (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I was thinking of material from before they were appointed, e.g. if there was a discussion involving the actions of user:Example in November and they become a c-clerk in December, they shouldn't be able to see the discussion even if the only comments were that the allegations against them are obviously ludicrous. I appreciate I didn't make this clear though. Thryduulf (talk) 02:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Making arbcom-en a "firewall" from the arb deliberations would inhibit the c-clerk from performing the duties listed in the motion. I cannot see how it would be workable for them to remind arbs to do the thing the electorate voluntold them to do if the c-clerk cannot see whether they have done those things (e.g. coming to a conclusion on an appeal), and would add to the overhead of introducing this secretarial position (email comes in, c-clerk forwards to -internal, arbs discussion on -internal, come to conclusion, send an email back to -en, which the c-clerk then actions back to the user on arbcom-en). This suggested rationale also does not hold water to me. Izno (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Apologies – if this was the interpretation, that's bad drafting on my part. The sole intention is that the new correspondence clerks won't see the past arbcom-en archives, which were emails sent to the committee on the understanding that only arbitrators would see those emails. C clerks will see everything that's newly sent on arbcom-en, including all deliberations held on arbcom-en, with the exception of anything that is so sensitive that the committee feels the need to restrict discussion to arbitrators (this should be fairly uncommon but covers the recusal concern above in a similar way as discussions about arbs who recuse sometimes get moved to arbcom-en-b). The C clerks will need to be able to see deliberations to be able to track pending matters and ensure that balls aren't being dropped, which could not happen unless they had access to the discussions – this is a reasonable "need to know" because they are fulfilling a function that is hard to combine with serving as an active arbitrator. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, I clearly totally misread your intent there. I.... don't think I like the idea that unelected clerks can see everything the committee is doing. Just Step Sideways 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, I oppose splitting arbcom-en a second time -- Guerillero 10:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Regarding 1.4, I think arbcom-en and -c are good ones for a c-clerk to have access to. -b probably doesn't need access ever, as it's used exclusively for work with recusals attached to it, which should be small enough for ArbCom to manage itself in the addition of a c-clerk. (This comment in private elicited the slight rework L235 made to the motion.) Izno (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
What does this mean – when was the first time? arcticocean ■ 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
@Arcticocean: In 2018, arbcom-l became arbcom-en and the archives are in two different places. -- Guerillero 18:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Appointing one of the sitting arbitrators as "Coordinating Arbitrator" (motion 3) would be my recommended first choice of solution. We had a Coordinating Arbitrator—a carefully chosen title, as opposed to something like "Chair"—for a few years some time ago. It worked well, although it was not a panacea, and I frankly don't recollect why the coordinator role was dropped at some point. If there is a concern about over-reliance or over-burden on any one person, the role could rotate periodically (although I would suggest a six-month term to avoid too much time being spent on the mechanics of selecting someone and transitioning from one coordinator to the next). At any given time there should be at least one person on a 15-member Committee with the time and the skill-set to do the necessary record-keeping and nudging in addition to arbitrating, and this solution would avoid the complications associated with bringing another person onto the mailing list. I think there would be little community appetite for involving a WMF staff member (even one who is or was also an active Wikipedian) in the Committee's business; and if we are going to set the precedent of paying someone to handle tasks formerly handled by volunteers, with all due respect to the importance of ArbCom this is not where I would start. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Regarding little community appetite – that is precisely why we are inviting community input here on this page, as one way to assess how the community feels about the various options. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I also like the idea of an arb or two taking on this role more than another layer of clerks. I'm sure former arbs would be great at it but the committee needs to handle its own internal business. Just Step Sideways 03:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it is ideal for the arbitration committee to track its own work items and prompt its members for timely action, and may have written this some time ago on-wiki. However... years have passed now, and the arbitration committee elections aren't well-suited to selecting arbitrators with the requisite skill set (even if recruitment efforts were made, the community can only go by the assurance of the candidate regarding the skills they possess and the time they have available). So I think it's worth looking at the option of keeping an arbitrator involved in an emeritus position if they have shown the aptitude and availability to help with administration. This could be an interim approach, until another solution is in place (maybe there can be more targeted recruiting of specific editors who, by their ongoing Misplaced Pages work, have demonstrated availability and tracking ability). isaacl (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

2 and 4 don't seem like very good ideas to me. For 2, I think we need to maintain a firm distinction between community and WMF entities, and not do anything that even looks like blending them together. For 4, every time you involve money in something, you multiply your potential problems by a factor of at least ten (and why should that person get paid, when other people who contribute just as much time doing other things don't, and when, for that matter, even the arbs themselves don't?). For 1, I could see that being a good idea, to take some clerical/"grunt work" load off of ArbCom and give them more time for, well, actually arbitrating, and functionaries will all already have signed the NDA. I don't have any problem with 3, but don't see why ArbCom can't just do it if they want to; all the arbs already have access to the information in question so it's not like someone is being approved to see it who can't already. Seraphimblade 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: Following up on your comments on motion 1, depending on which aspect of the proposed job one wanted to emphasize, you could also consider "amanuensis," "registrar," or "receptionist." (The best on-wiki title in my opinion, though we now are used to it so the irony is lost, will always be "bureaucrat"; I wonder who first came up with that one.) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Or "cat-herder". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Following parliamentary tradition, perhaps "whip". (Less whimsically: "recording secretary".) isaacl (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad:, if memory serves @Keegan: knows who came up with it, and as I recall the story was that they wanted to come up with the most boring, unappealing name they could so not too many people would be applying for it all the time. Just Step Sideways 05:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

So, just to usher in a topic-specific discussion because it has been alluded to many times without specifics being given, what was the unofficial position of ArbCom coordinator like? Who held this role? How did it function? Were other arbitrators happy with it? Was the Coordinator given time off from other arbitrator responsibilities? I assume this happened when an arbitrator just assumed the role but did it have a more formal origin? Did it end because no one wanted to pick up the responsibility? Questions, questions. Liz 06:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anything but my term. I performed this role for about 1.5 years of the 2 I was on the committee. To borrow an email I sent not long before I stepped off that touches on the topics in this whole set of motions (yes, this discussion isn't new):
  • Daily, ~20 minutes: went into the list software and tagged the day's incoming new email chains with a label (think "upe", "duplicate", etc).
  • Daily, ~10 minutes: took care of any filtered emails on the list (spam and not-spam).
  • Monthly, 1-2 hours: trawled the specific categories of tags since the beginning of the month to add to an arbwiki page for tracking for "needs to get done". Did the inverse also (removed stuff from tracking that seemed either Done or Stale).
  • Monthly, 15 minutes to prep: sent an email with a direct list of the open appeals and a reminder about the "needs doing" stuff (and a few months I highlighted a topic or two that were easy wins). This built off the daily work in a way that would be a long time if it were all done monthly instead of daily.
I was also an appeals focused admin, which had further overhead here that I would probably put in the responsibility of this kind of arb. Other types of arbs probably had similar things they would have wanted to do this direction but I saw very little of such. Daily for this effort, probably another 15 minutes or so:
  • I copy-pasted appeal metadata from new appeals email to arbwiki
  • Started countdown timers for appeals appearing to be at consensus
  • Sent "easy" boilerplate emails e.g. "we got this appeal, we may be in touch" or "no way Jose you already appealed a month ago"
  • Sent results for the easy appeals post-countdown timer and filled in relevant metadata (easy appeals here usually translated to "declined" since this was the quick-n-easy daily work frame, not the long-or-hard daily work frame)
(End extract from referenced email.) This second set is now probably a much-much lighter workload with the shedding of most CU appeals this year (which was 70% of the appeals by count during my term), and I can't say how much of this second group would be in the set of duties depending on which motion is decided above (or if even none of the motions are favored by the committee - you can see I've advocated for privately documenting the efforts of coordinating arbs rather than publicly documenting them regarding 3, and it wouldn't take much to get me to advocate against 2 and 4, I just know others can come to the right-ish conclusion on those two already; I'm pretty neutral on 1).
Based on the feedback I got as I was going out the door, it was appreciated. I did see some feedback that this version of the role was insufficiently personal to each arb. The tradeoff for doing something more personalized to each other arb is either time or software (i.e. money). I did sometimes occasionally call out when other members had not yet chimed in on discussions. That was ad hoc and mostly focused on onwiki matters (case votes particularly), but occasionally I had to name names when doing appeals work because the arbs getting to the appeal first were split. In general the rest of the committee didn't name names (which touches on some discussion above). I think some arbs appreciated seeing their name in an email when they were needed.
I was provided no formal relief from other matters. But as I discussed with one arb during one of the stressful cases of the term, I did provide relief informally for the duration of that case to that person for the stuff I was interested in, so I assume that either I in fact had no relief from other matters, or that I had relief but didn't know it (and just didn't ask for anyone else to do it - since I like to think I had it well enough in hand). :-) The committee is a team effort and not everyone on the team has the same skills, desire, or time to see to all other matters. (The probing above about arbs being insufficiently active is a worthwhile probe, to be certain.) To go further though, I definitely volunteered to do this work. Was it necessary work? I think so. I do not know what would have happened if I had not been doing it. (We managed to hit only one public snag related to timeliness during my term, which I count as a win; opinions may differ.)
There is no formal origin to the role that I know of. Someone else with longer committee-memory would have to answer whether all/recent committees have had this type, and who they were, and why if not.
I don't know how much of what I did lines up with what L235 had in mind proposing these motions. I do not think the work I did covers everything listed in the motions laid out. (I don't particularly need clarification on the point - it's a matter that will fall out in post-motion discussion.) Izno (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was here. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Archive zero: I love it! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Interestingly, that announcement also repeated the announcement at the top of the archive page that a departing arbitrator continued to assist the committee by co-ordinating the mailing list: acknowledging incoming emails and responding to senders with questions about them, and tracking issues to ensure they are resolved. So both a co-ordinator (plus a deputy!) and an arbitrator emeritus. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
former arbitrator will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list. was probably a statement along the lines of "knows how to deal with Mailman". And I think you're getting that role mixed up with the actual person doing the work management: the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its sitting arbitrators to act as coordinator (emphasis mine). Izno (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0 § Improving ArbCom co-ordination. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Oh, I see that now. Izno (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
I think I agree with Izno regarding the coordinating arbitrator role. There's no problem letting the community that the role exists, but I don't think it's necessary for the role's responsibilities to be part of the public-facing guarantees being made to the community. If the role needs to expand, shrink, split into multiple roles, or otherwise change, the committee should feel free to just do it as needed. The committee has the flexibility to organize itself as it best sees fit. isaacl (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
I think this is the right approach. It doesn't need to be advertised who is coordinating activity on the mailing list, it just needs to get done. If it takes two people, fine, if they do it for six months and say they want out of the role, ask somebody else to do it. And so on. Just Step Sideways 23:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
For instance, I don't think it's necessary to codify whether or not the coordinating arbitrator role is permanent. Just put a task on the schedule to review how the role is working out in nine months, and then modify the procedure accordingly as desired. isaacl (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
One exception: the first bullet point regarding responding to communications and assigning a tracking identifier does involve the committee's interactions with the community. I feel, though, that for flexibility these guarantees can be made without codifying who does them, from the community's point of view. (It's fine of course to make them part of the coordinating arbitrator's tasks.) isaacl (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Izno, this actually sounds like a helluva lot of work, maybe not minute-wise but mental, keeping track of everything so requests don't fall through the cracks. I think anyone assuming this role should get a break from, say, drafting ARBCOM cases if nothing else. Liz 03:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
It might be a lot of work, but it wasn't the bulk of the work, even for the work that I was doing. There was a lot more steps to being the appeal-focused admin above. Izno (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
You made me laugh, Liz. That sounds like my normal start-of-day routine, to be accompanied by a cup of tea and, perhaps, a small breakfast. I'd expect most arbitrators to be reading the mail on a daily basis, unless they are inactive for some reason; the difference here is the tagging/flagging of messages and clearing the filters, which probably adds about 10-12 minutes. I'll simply say that any arb who isn't prepared to spend 30-45 minutes/day reading emails probably shouldn't be an arb. That's certainly a key part of the role. Risker (talk) 04:43, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
+1. In my thoughts to potential candidates I said an hour a day for emails but that included far more appeals than the committee gets now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Never mind reading emails, the bulk of my private ArbCom time was spent on processing them: doing checks, reporting results, and otherwise responding to other work. You can get away with just reading internal emails, but it's going to surprise your fellow arbs if you don't pipe up with some rational thought when you see the committee thinking about something personally objectionable and the first time they hear about it is when motions have been posted and are waiting for votes. Izno (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Right now, I check my email account about once a week. I guess that will change if I'm elected to the committee. It would have helped to hear all of these details before the election. Liz 08:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
My hour included time to respond to emails, though I also note you're not going particularly deep on anything with that time (at least when ArbCom had more appeals). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)