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== VPNgate blocking bot ==


I am seeking consensus on a proposal to develop and deploy a bot to help block VPNgate IP addresses used by a particular ]. For ]/] reasons, I cannot provide full details, but users familiar with the LTA in question will understand the context.
== Inline template wikitext formatting ==

Please take a look at ] and comment, when you have a chance to do so. Thank you. 08:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC−5)

== Make it easier to submit edit requests ==

Currently, ] (shown when users try to edit a page they don't have rights to) provides instruction on how to make an edit request for a (semi)protected page. Why not make it a bit easier and just give visitors a prominent button to push? We can use an InputBox to preload the necessary {{tl|editsemiprotected}} / {{tl|editprotected}} text, and provide an explanatory editintro too. The example below, using preload/editintro borrowed from the ], shows how.

<InputBox>
type=commenttitle
page=Talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}
preload=Template:AfC preload
hidden=yes
editintro=Template:AfC editintro
buttonlabel=Submit an edit request
</InputBox>

Good idea? It might encourage frivolous requests, but we'd only know the signal/noise ratio by trying.

On a related note, I think it would be a lot friendlier if (a) the Edit button didn't become View Source when an editor doesn't have permission to edit - it's a missed opportunity to encourage people to find out more about editing and especially how signing up can have benefits and enable editing of semiprotected pages. (b) I don't really see that the average unregistered users actually wants to see the source wikitext; this is probably just confusing. Ditch it and use the space for a bigger, friendlier explanation of protection. Provide a link to the source for those few who really want it. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:{{CB-support2}} I personally think this is brilliant! Thumbs up! Although, oppose the second idea about the view source button, which I have found useful many times. --] (]) 21:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:'''Strong oppose''' the removal of the "view source" tab. Two reasons:
:*Sometimes, when explaining things to IP users, I have purposefully directed them to a given template, and suggested that they "view source", in order to see how something is done
:*I ''often'' use "view source" on protected templates to see what the ''actual'' parameters are, and what happens when certain combinations are used. The editors who maintain templates often forget to keep the documentation in synch. As a non-admin, if this were implemented, I would lose the ability to check why my template transclusions don't work as per the documentation.
:--] (]) 22:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
::If I understand it correctly, what he proposes isn't that you won't be able to look at the source code, just that it would require one more click. ] (]) 23:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Correct. I'm not suggesting ''removing'' the ability to see the source, I'm suggesting ''hiding'' the source, because for most people it's a confusing distraction at their first point of entry. It could be collapsed on the same page (hidden by default), or there could be a link to the source on a separate page. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Also, the argument applies mainly for articles. For protected templates, people who come along probably do actually want to see the source. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:18, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' part about hiding “View source”. I find it very useful, especially for protected templates. Also, the editnotice on semi-protected articles already explains that creating an account helps. ] (]) 23:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
'''Comment''' - Well I think it would be useful if it was easy to propose, for instance, a minor change on a protected article, without going through all the fuzz of creating a section on the talk page. --] (]) 23:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''' adding an input box below the current text of ]. Although users wishing to edit probably don't often get there in the first place, this surely happens from time to time and we should make it easier for them to request edits. Note that <nowiki>{{TALKPAGENAME}}</nowiki> should be used to make it work in general. '''Neutral''' on the rest; I agree with the general idea to make it easier to request edits on protected pages, maybe we should change the text which appears when pointing on view source from "you can view its source" to "you can view its source and request edits", though I think we'd need to ask devs for this. ] (]) 00:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
*:Noting that the editprotected/editsemiprotected template should be contained in the preload. ] (]) 01:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
* {{CB-support2}} adding the inputbox. It will help new editors unfamiliar with our policies to submit requests. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> (continued below)
* {{CB-oppose1}} "view source" suggestion. "View source" is a useful button, and anyways, an explanation is given on the view source page. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 02:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
**I'm not talking about getting rid of the button, I'm suggesting making the button ''always'' say "Edit this page", to make it more inviting for people to click on and get an explanation that yes, they really can edit (but not this page right now). In addition, I'd try and make the explanation friendlier and more welcoming, and part of that might be not showing scary source text which you can't even edit: that seem offputting to me. In principle, there could be another Inputbox which uses the current article text to feed a sandbox, so that people can test editing (with a sufficiently clear explanation, this might work). ] <sup>]</sup> 08:06, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
***I knew that it wasn't removing the button. Anyways, we have a nice header explaining why it can't be edited. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 10:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
****The ] message isn't particularly nice for newbies (I might draft a redesign if I have time); and semi-protected pages often only have the small lock icon, so there's no nice message on the page itself. And "View Source" is not exactly reinforcing the "Anyone Can Edit" message. ] <sup>]</sup> 10:19, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
******We already have a tooltip on it which is quite helpful and it pops up immediately ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 09:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
*******Yes, it pops up ''when you put the mouse over the button'' (also the tooltip just says "you can view the source" ...). What proportion of people do that? Why would they? The issue is sending a message that's right there. We do this as a matter of course with unprotected pages - I don't see we avoid doing this with protected pages. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
*****See also ]
*'''Endorse''' the inputbox for submit an edit request - great idea. Far too often IPs suggest edits without using the editprotected template, and are thus disenfranchised. –]] 17:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

*'''Support''', this could also work where an article is fully protected too. ] (]) 19:20, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''', a great idea. Can't imagine any drawbacks to implementing the make-a-request idea, whether for semiprotected pages or for fully protected pages. I have no opinion on the question of hiding the source-text link. ] (]) 23:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support''', love the idea as well. Lets stick to the editform first, we can deal with the issue of the "view source" tab in a separate discussion. —] (] • ]) 23:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
*{{CB-support2}} And I make a mental note to give a hand on the design as soon as I have some spare time. Also, the source code should be in a collapsible box. It has to stay efficient and easy to use for us power users. But beginners should notice it only when they need it. It's a good compromise. ] (]) 01:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
**That's a good idea. Can it be done without changing the software? ] <sup>]</sup> 11:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
*Ditto what Nyttend said. ]] 02:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
*'''Neutral''' - I might be interested in seeing how a temporary test implementation goes, because I'm worried that making it this easy will cause lots of trivial requests. Currently only people who are seriously concerned will go through the trouble of reading the instructions and making a request, and I think for protected pages only significant concerns should really warrant the attention and effort of an admin. So the commitment required to make a request, so to speak, was always sort of a built-in check against trivial requests. But with this button, anyone who wants to make any edit might use the button since it's so easy. So I'm not sure if this would turn out to be a good thing. <font face="Century Gothic">] <small>]</small> 22:33, 23 Mar 2010 (UTC)</font>
**It's a concern. It's fairly easy to keep an eye on though, because we'd see an increasing backlog in handling requests, at ] / ]. Probably we have to accept an increase in frivolous requests as a price for increasing worthwhile requests. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

===Proposed implementation design by Rd232===
:''Please don't vote here on the idea in general, this is about collaborating on a specific design''
OK, so ] has a draft redesign, and includes a working preload/editintro for editsemiprotected. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:27, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Looks nice, but what about fully protected pages? --] (]) 17:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::That's not a problem. The same principles apply, I suggest we design them 1 at a time. —] (] • ]) 00:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Probably a good idea, but I've already drafted that too, at ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
* The thing is a tad tall this way. I suggest a similar layout as the ]. Just 2 columns with text, and then a new row with a request button. 80% of the people don't read that other text anyways. —] (] • ]) 00:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
*:I don't quite get that. Can you draft it? ] <sup>]</sup> 01:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I've improved the design a bit, not least using the trick from {{tl|Feedback page}} where the inputbox parameters are plugged into a fullurl link, thus avoiding the format-scrambling inputbox. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

:The format is much better, but it still would be nice to have a button. The edit proposal option now gets kinda lost in there. --] (]) 12:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::How about an arrow icon (])? Or change things around more dramatically. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Hm, I don't think an arrow there makes much sense. How about "you can submit an edit request by clicking the button on the bottom" or something? So that the more experienced users can find the button right away. --] (]) 14:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Why doesn't an arrow make sense there? It highlights the key action link. Your suggestion I think could be confusing. More showing and less telling would be helpful in this discussion - let's ''see'' what we're talking about; just edit my draft or create your own. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Something like that:]. The text may need rewriting though, but the layout should look something like this (I think). --] (]) 14:51, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::I guess that's OK, but it slightly upsets the priority (unprotection should come last, I think). But it it's an improvement on the status quo either way, and it can always be revised later. What do people think? ] <sup>]</sup> 17:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::I like JokerXtreme's suggestion. —] (] • ]) 19:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Agree, that one is probably my favorite out of both proposals. I have a feeling the button will "click" better with new users who are trying to figure out how to edit the page. I really don't think it upsets the priority either, because it's separate from everything else - i.e., it's not a bullet point. That's how I see it. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 20:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::Fair enough. Let's give it a bit little longer for comments (24hrs?), and then somebody implement it please. ] <sup>]</sup> 22:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I like it too. :) It's much better than the current one imo, well done people. ]</small><sup>]</sup> 22:25, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::Rd, what do you mean implement it? I thought it was already finished. It just needs the code from your "edit request" link. The templates probably need to change too. --] (]) 22:51, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::I assume he means putting it ], so it actually shows up. :) ]</small><sup>]</sup> 23:00, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Aaah, I see! Well, Rd, I guess you must have the honor :) Are those ok btw? {{tl|editsemiprotected}}, {{tl|editprotected}} Or do they need any change? --] (]) 23:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::OK, I'll do it then, probably tomorrow morning (probably better anyway that I do it since I split the code across pages to make editing easier, and it needs reintegrating). I don't see that those templates need any changes. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

{{tick|18}} '''{{ucfirst:Done}}''' And implemented - now live. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
:and I see that it's already {{diff|Template talk:Death date and age|352063520|342729674|attracting improper requests}} --] (]) 00:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::It is too early to say, but I think the proper requests outweigh the improper. --] (]) 08:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::Define "improper". It appears to be a good faith request relating to ], but in the wrong place (death template). ] <sup>]</sup> 09:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Can something be done to encourage editors to use a more descriptive section heading rather than the generic "edit request"? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 10:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:I guess that could be useful. Maybe it should be added in the tmbox here: . I couldn't find the template for it. But, I think the heading should start with "Edit request -". --] (]) 10:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::And it should be possible to add the date to the default heading so that if people don't type in their own heading, as least you don't get several identical headings on a page which stops the table of contents working. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 12:48, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::The editintro templates are ] and ]. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 12:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Sounds good. Headings in an "Edit request - (time, date) - " preform, that users will fill in. OK, we need to add a third advice and probably place it first. Something like "'''Please use a descriptive headline.''' Fill in further details about the subject of the edit request.". Just throwing this on the table. --] (]) 13:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::::The wording needs to be more clear and easily seen. Already there has been a double or triple in requests, most of them not correct. Emphasis needs to be made on presenting a reliable source to back the change up, as well as a "change X to Y"-format, which may not be clear enough for some people. <span style="border:1px solid;">]]]</span> 00:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Indeed. As probably the person who has actioned most semi's in the past few days (as I often do), I've seen about a five-fold increase in the number, but most of them have been crap. Blank requests, garbled junk, vandalism. A few have been partly comprehensible, but of them, most gave no source, and/or didn't make a ''specific'' request. I am all for the idea of making the requests easier, but please, could someone make the request thingy clearer - emphasize the need to say '''''exactly''''' what needs to change, and to give '''''reliable sources'''''. Preferably in 6-foot high flashing comic-sans. Ty. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">]]</span></small> 08:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::What about increases in ''good'' requests? ] <sup>]</sup> 09:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::NB requests like may not be exactly what we want, but they are an opportunity to engage new users who might otherwise not understand and walk away. It's a chance to explain. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::Yes, we've had a few of those as well :) But mainly I seem to be telling people to discuss their proposals on the talk page first, which is especially important on fully protected pages. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 09:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, this was my concern about making the Request button too visible in ] - it makes it more likely people will just jump to clicking the button to see what it does. I had the Request link more within the text (]) so people would actually have to ''read'' it to find that option. Also, it occurs to me that we should probably remove the button anyway on the main page, replacing it with a pointer to the tutorial perhaps. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:I think that will rather discourage edit requesting in general. No one will bother to read, I know I wouldn't. I think my proposal below addresses the concerns raised.--] (]) 10:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

===Editintro===
I changed the template a little bit. I changed the icon and the instructions. ]. We could also bold the "follow instructions" here: ]--] (]) 09:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:Better, for sure. As I said, I'm all in favour of encouraging editing, and in making it easier. Hopefully they will read that notice; I have a feeling that lack of sources will be the biggest problem - but that's OK; only takes a minute to respond to it explaining why we need sources. We shall see.

:I'd like to make a request of my own here: it would be great if the people supporting this could keep an eye on the requests (]; bot updates can be transcluded from {{utn|VeblenBot/SPERtable}}) and help to action them. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">]]</span></small> 15:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:Out of interest, I had a bit of a look. To my knowledge, we've had 44 requests since 25th; 9 of which have been successful. Notes in ]. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">]]</span></small> 18:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

::I see most of the rejected requests were not referenced. And to tell the truth, no one was asked to provide references in the instructions. Am I wrong? Additionally, some of the requests I declined, did not check for consensus first. We should address that too. --] (]) 18:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Personally, I think the consensus thing is a decision that the person dealing with it can make - and the request can be the start of a discussion; I don't see a problem with that. The main thing to drill in is the need for references - as always. Same as at ], where I spend hours each day telling people what an ] is, what ] really means, and that blogs and press-releases ain't enough for ]. References, that's the key. To be honest we're bound to get some rubbish requests, no matter what; if we can somehow make it ultra-clear that refs are needed, that's the best chance we have to increase the good/bad ratio. <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">]]</span></small> 22:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Should I publish my editintro draft for a start and see how that goes? --] (]) 22:23, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

::::Sure, why not? I would suggest something in-between the and ] - I don't like the harsh red sign on the latter, I prefer the more friendly informational, but I'd like to see something like, perhaps, the "Please {{hilite|provide reliable sources}} when possible" highlighted?

::::Another idea is, how about 2 input boxes - one for their suggestion, and another for the reference? <small><span style="border: 1px solid; background-color:darkblue;">]]</span></small> 22:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::How about the new version? ]. Maybe we should just add that sources are necessary in the request form, like here:<InputBox>
type=commenttitle
page=Talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}
preload=Template:AfC preload
hidden=yes
editintro=Template:AfC editintro
buttonlabel=Submit an edit request
</InputBox>
:::::--] (]) 23:38, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I've adopted Joker's changes and adapted and expanded on them - see ]. I've also customised ] for the Main Page, since an edit request button there doesn't seem useful (check it out by clicking View Source when not logged in). ] <sup>]</sup> 01:39, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:Looks good, let's see how that goes. But, how about having "Edit request - {{tlx|currentuser}}" as the default heading? This would fix the problem with multiple ERs messing up the table of contents. --] (]) 07:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
::done, with date as well. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

===Problem with apostrophes===
A user tried to use this at ] and was sent to edit ]. It reproduces easily. ] (]) 03:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

:I couldn't fix this using inputbox; it ought to work with either TALKPAGENAME or TALKPAGENAMEE (]), but neither does. Using the direct link trick with fullurl, it does work, so I've switched to that. Maybe someone else can sort it better. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:16, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

===Requests relating to non-existent pages===
We are getting quite a lot of requests on ]ed pages. Quite often, the page has been through an AfD and {{tl|editprotected}} is not appropriate. I think perhaps the link should not be displayed on these? &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 13:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:OK, done. Hid the whole table if the page doesn't exist but is protected, leaving the SALTed notice which points users to ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

===Huge ugly confusing box===

Please revert the recent changes to this template. All they have done is take up twice as much space to display the exact same information, and in two boxes, one of them multi-column, rather than a single one. The result is an ugly confusing mess. There is nothing to stop you adding a link to make an edit request without all that junk. ] (]) 23:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:Please be constructive. The aim is to provide a helpful link to editors. You could suggest an alternative method rather than asking for all changes to be reverted. &mdash;&nbsp;Martin <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 10:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::As Rd pointed out, there were many more changes than just changing the template display. The point of the two boxes was to make sure that newbies pay attention to it, and in fact, it works. If you have something better to propose, please do so. --] (]) 11:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== secure.wikimedia.org Proxy Error 502 ==

I'm getting a lot of these over the last three days. I am signing off secure.wikimedia.org and signing in to en.wikipedia.org in order to accomplish anything. Any others with this problem? Is there a better place to determine the status of secure.wikimedia.org? Many thanks, ] (]) 18:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:Me too. It happens when I try to get diffs, edit (it'll make the edit but not return the proper screen), and even when I'm just reading a page. I've had to go to the unsecure server too.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 19:16, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::Yes, the same for me. It seems to happen with any large page, one that has a lot of data to load. Clearing my browser cache does not help. It seems to have started just after the server failure a few days ago, and is very annoying. Have the secure servers not yet been fully restored? --] (]) 21:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I concur, it seems to mainly happen on large pages, and the problem started with the failure noted "Update 21:32 UTC: Our SSL gateway, secure.wikimedia.org, was disabled due to overload issues, but is now back up." Thanks for your comments, as they make it unlikely that the continuing problem is mine. (Parenthetical remark, whilst troubleshooting, I came across a comment that European users can bypass the Amsterdam servers when those servers are down by logging into secure.wikipedia.org because it is in Florida. If enough people are still doing that... overload?) I haven't been able to find a web status indication for secure.wikipedia.org. ] (]) 21:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
::::OK, but can something be done to fix this now?<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 23:59, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::The problem is continuing for me. I've left a message at ]. It's not really clear to me where one can report what appears to be a hardware problem. --] (]) 21:38, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

In case it helps, here are further details of the 502 error message: ''Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) mod_fastcgi/2.4.6 PHP/5.2.4-2ubuntu5.7wm1 with Suhosin-Patch mod_ssl/2.2.8 OpenSSL/0.9.8g Server at secure.wikimedia.org Port 443''. --] (]) 21:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:] was opened to track this issue. —] (] • ]) 00:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
::Thank you, TheDJ. --] (]) 00:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
:Yes, I am getting the same error:
<pre>Proxy Error

The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
The proxy server could not handle the request POST /wikipedia/en/search/.

Reason: Error reading from remote server

Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) mod_fastcgi/2.4.6 PHP/5.2.4-2ubuntu5.7wm1 with Suhosin-Patch mod_ssl/2.2.8 OpenSSL/0.9.8g Server at secure.wikimedia.org Port 443
</pre> --] (]) 00:36, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


Ditto. Over the last few days I've been getting a 502 on https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en. I'm not experiencing it on http://en.wikipedia.org. It happens on both Safari and Firefox, survives a reboot, is intermitted, and doesn't seem to affect the ]. One article I've seen it on consistently is .

Full response:

<pre>
Proxy Error

The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
The proxy server could not handle the request GET /wikipedia/en/Ireland.

Reason: Error reading from remote server

Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) mod_fastcgi/2.4.6 PHP/5.2.4-2ubuntu5.7wm1 with Suhosin-Patch mod_ssl/2.2.8 OpenSSL/0.9.8g Server at secure.wikimedia.org Port 443
</pre>

--RA (]) 20:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


I don't know if this helps or confuses, but I get the error message:

"The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server. The proxy server could not handle the request GET /wikipedia/en/3rd_Battalion_3rd_Marines."

when I am on the secure server, *but* when I go to the English server and try to edit the page, I get the same error. I have gotten this error on numerous pages on both the secure and English server.] (]) 00:03, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

* Me too, happens intermittently. Started last few days. ] 12:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

According to the Bugzilla report, linked above, they are in the process of setting up a new server that, when installed, will hopefully fix the problem. --] (]) 17:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

At least for me, this now seems to be fixed. --] (]) 17:53, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== Global file usage ==

Do we need all those global file usage links at the bottom of commons-hosted files ? This seems like a lot of irrelevant links for readers and most users, and also makes file pages unnecessarily long, while many are already quite long and for navigability images should be as quick as possible to load - then close. The commons description page is linked anyway and we can add a link to ] in ], which is certainly good enough for curious users. ] (]) 23:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:Should we file a bug, or not ? ] (]) 16:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:Can't say that I really see any problem. From what I can tell, it doesn't add significantly to the loading time of the page, since there's a cap on how many instances it shows; see ] (very likely the most heavily used image in the WMF system) for an example. As for it making the page longer... so what? Aside from the fact that you can just hit the "end" key to get to the very bottom of any page, the only thing below Global Usage is the Metadata and Categories; the latter doesn't (usually) exist for Commons-only images. The Metadata section being displayed above the "Global file usage" and "File links" sections wouldn't be a bad idea, though... ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 16:48, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

::This is one of the things that the multimedia usability project might look at at some point. There have been ideas to move all history and maintenance stuff like this into the page history file for instance. But it will be a while (if ever) before guillom gets around to that. There are more important issues to solve before he focuses on this. —] (] • ]) 00:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:::Yes, I think the file pages need an overhaul. Readers looking at an image are... just looking for the image. They're some important additional information like copyright and co but the history and internal links sometimes take a lot of place, more than they should imo (so more capping needed for example), and the global file usage links are the last straw. It can increase load for users with old/weak computers, connexions or browsers, or with mobile phones, and image pages are the prototype of pages that are opened and closed quickly, so we should make this easy. That's usability and such so mostly in the hands of the WMF, but I don't see how those global usage links can be useful to us. ] (]) 22:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

::::There is a mention of moving it into WhatLinksHere, in ]. I disagree as image embedding and image description linking/transcluding are two different things. — ] 04:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:I create a Gadget that allows you to 'show/hide' these elements. <code>importScript('User:TheDJ/usagecollapse.js');</code> —] (] • ]) 14:09, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Allowing users to see where they've logged in from ==

I think that users should be able to see the IP's that they've recently logged in as. Gmail has it . This will enable users to see where they've logged in from in the past and make sure that their account hasn't been hacked. Additionally, Gmail introduced an automatic warning system which warns you if your account was accesses from the other side of the globe, for users who don't check the IP table continuously I don't think it should be hard to implement, a user can be allowed to checkuser himself (Maybe in a limited way, only see last month's IPs). Comments or thoughts? ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 01:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:Please see ] –]] 02:32, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
::But privacy to oneself? Thats absurd. You and only you log in to your account, so its OK to make your data available to you. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 04:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:::I would prefer that WMF keep as little information as possible. And if your statement "You and only you log in to your account" is true, then your proposal is unnecessary. Per Z-Man below, this solution is in search of a problem. –]] 16:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:::I think that's a good idea, but still, if someone hacked into another person's account, that person's IP would be known (for example, if Y hacked into X's account, Y can find out what X's IP is). --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.3em 0.3em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]]]</span> 04:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:::: Then how 'bout we just calculate if the acct was accessed from far away. If the system detects that X logged in from Chicago, and then half an hour later X logs in from London, the system can block X, and tell him to check his email to unblock himself. In his email will be an unblock link. Anyways, if X's account is hacked, he will probably have greater things to worry about... This can also be extended to inactive accounts. If an account is inactive for more than a year, it will be blocked and the user can unblock it thru email. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 04:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::The hacker might be your next door neighbour, or your work colleague, or your employee. There is nothing to guarantee that a hacker is going to be far away from you. ] (]) 04:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

{{od}} Something's better than nothing... At the moment we have no protection. Protecting yourself from the 5 billion people who don't live near you is better than not being protected at all. Just hope that the remaining one billion don't try to hack you. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 04:57, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:It would be even better to emailnotifyandblock a user ''regardless of the time difference''. For example, If I edit from a different country, even if I do so after a week, I should be emailnotifiedandblocked. Frequent fliers should be given an option to turn this off ''except'' where the time difference is too little (logging in from different hemispheres within half an hour or so). ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:01, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
::No thanks. Using proxies would then get you blocked. Some companies have strange routing setups and you can suddenly be using an IP from thousands of kilometres away without knowing it. And for people that don't register an email address there would be no way to unblock oneself. ] (]) 05:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Reply below ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:47, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
*] Maybe ? '''] ]''' 05:05, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
*:??]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I've thought of this before. It's a good idea though. Maybe it could be setup on the toolserver and users log in to see their IPs, thus protecting them from others seeing their IPs. ] (]) 05:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
: It could only protect other from seeing if the toolserver uses SSL connections. ] (]) 05:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 05:28, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:Better to be safe than sorry... ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
::So because I have no protection from ninjas ] from my roof and breaking through my 8th floor window, I should run out and put steel bars over my window just in case? Misplaced Pages accounts almost never get "hacked" because 99.94% of accounts have no special access that a hacker couldn't get just by creating their own account. There is virtually no personal information that can be stolen by hacking into a normal (non-admin) account. No evidence has yet been presented that A) Misplaced Pages accounts getting hacked is a serious problem and B) The current system for dealing with it (having a checkuser get the information) is failing somehow. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 16:41, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

{{ec}} Good idea. That way a hacker won't come to know your IP unless he logs into toolserver (which he probably won't know about). The tool should have a strict "3 logins per day" thing, though, after which you have to login thru a link in your email. The toolserver should also have a separate password. What about the autoblockandemailunblocklink proposal? ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
:"autoblockandemailunblocklink" is a a bad idea. See my response above. ] (]) 05:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
::Oh I didn't see that. Keep it disabled by default. Let users with email enable it (I would), with some options like: "Would you like to autoblock if its accessed from somewhere else, or just recieve a notification", and "I'm changing my location, please do not bother me for the next x days" ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 05:45, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:...you lost me at "hackers logging into the toolserver". "lolwut?" was pretty much my reaction. I believe Mr.Z-man had it right: this is a solution in search of a problem. ] <span style="color: #999;">// ] // ] //</span> 16:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Good Idea. I have seen this on a number of commercial sites. I guess wikipedia members doesn't care about security. There are a number of ways to scramble the IP and for privacy scrambling is a good idea so you don't see the IP but you can see if previous IP's are different to your current one. Regards, ] <sup>(])</sup> 16:46, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
:Correct, I would rather people spend time and/or money on useful projects than on securing something that in more than 99.9% of cases is under no threat of hacking. Scrambling the IP is pretty much just a token privacy measure. MediaWiki is open source software, so whatever scrambling algorithm is used would be public knowledge. You wouldn't be able to use a very good scrambling method either, or else it would be completely useless to people with a dynamic IP (i.e. almost everyone) as even a small variation in the IP would result in a ]. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 04:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::Then how 'bout we just report the ''locations'' (country, maybe state), and notify if the location has changed. That shouldn't be hard, and it doesn't violate privacy. ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 04:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
I think the point people are trying to make (though not in so many words) is that the privacy policy is a double-edged sword; it protects your information from the hacker, ''and'' protects the hacker′s information from you. This is a sensible default because in a scenario like this where Alice passing Bob′s log-in screen implies that the server has exhausted available means to distinguish her from Bob. Restricting users to IPs “similar” to those from which they registered or last edited only introduces greater DoS and LTDR problems. ―] 17:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Wait... did someone use ''Toolserver'' and ''log in'' and ''password'' and ''storing IPs'' in the same sentence? Err...? . &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 04:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Can we please close/archive this pointless discussion. Its not going to happen, for all the reasons above and more. It doesn't prevent accounts being hacked, which doesn't happen that often anyway, it will probably increase privacy issues, will require time spent building it which could be spent on much more useful things, and besides a major thing like this would probably require the foundations approval too, which isn't likely considering barely anybody here supports it. Go back to editing and stop wasting time here--]] 04:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:I think the general rule on village pumps is that discussions are not 'closed' or 'archived' (prematurely) they are just left to die a natural death and get archived by Misza. So, just stop responding =) Even if a bugzilla is filed, a developer will likely very swiftly close it as "WONTFIX". But I agree that further discussion of this proposal is just wasted breath. –]] 13:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Any talk page ==

Why is it that if you edit a talk page when logged out you can only see the edit box, whilst logged in you can see the whole page? This applies to "edit this page". This is definitely a recent change. IMO for the worst. ] (]) 20:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Whoa, that is new. I can't imagine that being of any benefit at all. <span style="white-space:nowrap">— ] (])</span> 21:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

:I don't understand the problem description. More info required. screenshots might help. —] (] • ]) 00:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:This is something that can be enabled in preferences, if "Show preview on first edit" (in the "Editing" section) is selected. ] (]) 01:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

For those who don't know...

] ] ]

{{clear}}

Where was the discussion on these changes (a bit ironic eh?) ] (]) 01:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:Possibly an option in . Take a look at the editing tab and see if the tick is on "Show preview on first edit". ] (]) 01:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

::Okay, possibly it's just so old that I've forgotten there was ever a choice. That's the same as "new", right? <span style="white-space:nowrap">— ] (])</span> 02:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:::No, you've got it wrong Astronaut and Snigbrook. Logged out\IP editors do not get preferences. Look at the pics again and look especially at the top of the screen. ] (]) 18:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
::::And logged in users DO. Look at your settings, like Astronaut described. The NORMAL behavior is to have the edit box when you click edit, and not, to have both the preview and the editbox. —] (] • ]) 23:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

:::::In the past it has been both even when not in user. ] ] 15:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

== Collapse template transclusion list ==

When you edit a page, or View Source on a page you don't have permission to edit, you get a list of transcluded templates (which is often quite long). I've never understood why we do this; it's never been any use to me and it must confuse newbies (see eg ).

Proposal: use a {{tl|hat}}-style approach (with an appropriate message of course) to collapse that list by default (i.e. people wishing to see it need to click ). ] <sup>]</sup> 15:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

* If this is done please allow it to be shown-by-default with some CSS magic. Thanks, –]] 15:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
** Of course. Incidentally I've no idea how my proposal can exactly be implemented; but I'm sure we can figure it out. ] <sup>]</sup> 15:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
***I'm working on something ], but it is far from finished. —] (] • ]) 12:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
****Now hide template lists, file usage and global file usage, when you want it to. Uses a cookie to remember your last action. —] (] • ]) 14:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
*****That's great, thanks. But the primary motivation for this is not confusing newbies, so the show/hide option needs to be available by default for all users, and the list hidden by default. I guess it needs to be added to ]? Shall I suggest that there? ] <sup>]</sup> 08:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

On this topic one frequent annoyance to me is that the same template list is not visible during a section-edit. I know the least astonishing behavior would be to list only the templates upon which that section depends, but listing them unfilteredly from the {{code|`templatelinks`}} table would be better than no information. Perhaps I′ll write a gadget for this. ―] 08:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== SeaMonkey and images not displaying ==

{{Resolved}}
I am quite sure nothing got changed on my end, but suddenly (few days ago or so) my SeaMonkey 1.1.17 stopped displaying images (). My IE and other browsers are fine, but I have this browser customized for my Misplaced Pages operations (updating the browser would result in many broken extensions, particularly for the new SM 2.0). Any ideas what I could try to get the images back other then updating (I am assuming something changed on the Wikimedia side)? A little more info: Misplaced Pages beta skin has the same issue; I cannot see images on any other WMF projects, but other MediaWikis I tried look fine, with the exception of Wikia front page (but it subwikis look fine). I tried refreshing the cache, deleting cookies, disabling the firewall, restarting the browser and the computer, to no effect. Suggestions welcome :) --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
:It seems the browser has lost upload.wikimedia.org. This might be because it is using a DNS cache that is confused due to the problems from last week. I don't know how to solve this. Perhaps try to find out where SM stores all its caching information and delete it manually ? —] (] • ]) 16:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
::My problem does seem to be connected to the DNS issues earlier, but I can access and view pictures like . I tried cleaning the cache and flushing my system cached DNS, so far this is not helping. PS. Updating SM to the newest 1.x build, the 1.1.19, did not help, neither. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Update: resolved. I traced the problem to upload.wikimedia.org being blacklisted somehow in Preferences->Images->Mange Image Permissions. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 15:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Disruptive usernames in the search box ==

]
Hope this is the correct place... Is it possible to stop accounts that are blocked for violating the username policy from popping up in the search box? I don't think these type of promotional and offensive usernames should be seen when trying to search for articles. Thanks, ''']''']''' 23:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
:Get the page deleted or change your search options in ] to not include the User: and User talk: namespaces. I know of no better option; both noindexed pages (''e.g.'' ]) and redirects (''e.g.'' ]) do show up in the list. Note that the default is ''only'' to include articles in the AJAX search box. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks for the response. I've changed the search options in My Preferences. ''']''']''' 12:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Why does it show user-pages when one has begun typing something other than “User:”? I miss the old behavior where results were both in alphabetical order and identical to the listing in ]. Is that version still available somewhere as a gadget, or ought I write my own? ―] 03:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:Because the user has changed the namespaces he wants to search by default in his preferences. —] (] • ]) 11:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Twinkle vs. spam blacklist ==

I tagged ] for speedy deletion as a copyvio, but it wasn't easy. Twinkle said that tagging the article was complete, but I didn't see the tag on the article! So I tried adding it manually, thinking that it was just an intermittent glitch in Twinkle. To my surprise, the URL the content came from was on the spam blacklist! No wonder why the article hadn't earlier been deleted with most of the other "large unwikified new articles". ] <sup>]</sup> 06:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:Please report twinkle issues to ]. –]] 13:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:I'm thinking that the easiest fix is actually to change {{tl|db-g12}} to nowiki external links. I don't want to break the somewhat complex template (though not nearly as much as {{tl|dated prod}}) though; I would prefer that someone with more template experience make the change. But wait...is it even possible to nowiki a template parameter from within the template? Yes it is. Use <nowiki>{{#tag:nowiki|{{{url}}}}}</nowiki>. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::Posted at ] with the proposed changes. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== 7 accts in 24 hrs ==

{{resolved}}
Is our accountcreation blocker working correctly? The one that allows a user to make only 6 accounts in 24 hours? I'm not an accountcreator, which means if I create six accounts within 24 hours, I'm blocked from creating more. I've started at ], and looking at , it seems that I have made 11 accounts in the 24 hr range March 29, 15:45-March 30, 15:45 (UTC). Even if we consider that the software might consider a day as a UTC cay, not any arbitrary range of 24 hrs, I've still created 7 accounts on March 30 (UTC). How did I bypass the accountcreation block? Thanks, ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 10:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
: My guess is that your IP must get changed by your ISP from time to time - if you had the same IP, you would only be able to create 6 accounts from 0000UTC-235959.99UTC, especially as your count for today is 11 accounts created. -- ''''']'''''/]&#124;]\ 13:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Or you used different computers. ]_] 14:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Didn't change comps, and I didn't turn off my router. I do have a rotating IP, but my comp was on the whole time (I was studying my notes). Do IP's rotate when you're using them? ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 02:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::::They could...depends on your ISP provider.] (]) 23:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Oooh. I didn't know that... Thanks! ]<sup>] • ]</sup> 03:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

== Best way to save watchlist items for more than the max. 7 days? ==

What's the best way to save watchlist items for more than the maximum of 7 days? It will probably either require use of the RSS feed or the API. I'd prefer using a service that's already available rather than write my own. Also, the solution should not require human intervention; i.e., it should download new watchlist items automatically. I was thinking of using Google Reader as it archives items pretty far back, but I can't recall if it only fetches new items when you visit it, which would require human intervention and is therefore not an option for me. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 17:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:The maximum is in fact 30 days, see Special:Watchlist . Were you wanting something to list (in a file) every passing edit for a set of pages or only to display “recent changes” in some window other than your web browser? ―] 07:01, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:: Good Lord you just saved me a lot of time. Thanks! <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 18:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== Create article quality and importance fields in the database ==

Article quality is presently detected by looking at article talk pages (see ]). I wonder if we might instead make quality and importance database fields, either in the <code>page</code> table or in quality/importance table(s) linked to that table, and add functions to detect that data (e.g. <code>Article::getQuality()</code>, or <code>Title::getArticleImportance</code>, etc.) so that extensions and such can more easily make use of it. Rather than assigning quality and importance values via edits to the talk page, quality and importance could be set on the article page itself via a button/] in a similar manner as, for instance, protection or ] is done, and modifications to this metadata would be ]. (Note that <code>protected_titles</code> has its own table.) The talk page WikiProject templates could then populate this data using ] such as <nowiki>{{ARTICLEQUALITY}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{ARTICLEIMPORTANCE}}</nowiki>. Measures similar to those used by ] might be used.

We are perhaps used to thinking of ] as a true/false dichotomy because our deletion debates operate within that paradigm, but really notability is a spectrum on which many levels could be set in accordance with ]. Deletion debates do result in a boolean measure of article importance being added to the database (i.e. deleted or undeleted). But a more nuanced approach could be in order. Quality and importance are vital attributes of an article, because article length, completeness, sourcing, style, notability, etc. help determine an article's overall current usefulness and how much attention the article deserves/requires. I.e., if you only have an hour a day to devote to editing, you might want to focus your attention on high-importance, low-quality articles. The fact that WikiProjects go around grading articles by ] and importance, and that we plaster ] to warn readers of article problems and notability issues and to help us categorize and spot articles in need of improvement or other action, shows that there is some recognition of these metrics' importance.

So then, what exact use could be made of these fields? Maybe ] could filter articles by quality and importance; some users might prefer to only keep an eye on articles above a certain threshold of importance. I am thinking in particular of this being useful in a hyper-inclusionist encyclopedia that allows lots of content that would be below Misplaced Pages's current standards for inclusion. Suppose there are a bunch of articles on garage bands and such. Some users might deem those subjects to be so non-notable that they don't even care if those articles get vandalized, so they would filter those articles out of their recent changes. On the other hand, a user might wish to search out articles that are both high-importance and low-quality and concentrate his efforts on those. A reader could set minimum standards of importance and quality in his user preferences, and wikilinks could turn different styles (much as article titles turn different colors with Pyrospirit's gadget) or be deactivated entirely (i.e. turn into black plaintext) based on whether or not an article meets his preferred thresholds of quality and importance.

It might be argued, But then people will edit war over what an article's importance and quality rating should be. I see no reason to expect this. We do not see much edit warring over quality and importance assessments under our current system even though we do make those assessments; and we have orderly processes such as ], ], and ] for deciding whether to promote or demote articles from certain tiers of quality. I have never seen a user storm off angrily from the project or go on a rampage over something that happened in those processes. The major disputes occur at XFD and ], but the need for most deletions could be obviated in a hyper-inclusionist encyclopedia in which information were graded and filtered by user preference.

It might be further argued, But if people don't pay much attention to the low-quality articles, and filter them out of what they see, then those articles will never get the love they need to improve. Again, though, when combined with the importance metric, this problem can be obviated, because people can focus their efforts on high-importance, low-quality articles. Articles on low-importance subjects such as garage bands, because few people know or care about them, will tend to not receive many edits, and to stay in a low-quality state. This is no big deal; the encyclopedia's reputation will not suffer much from their presence, because who is going to google those subjects, find those articles, and be disgusted with our coverage of them? If a lot of people are googling a subject and reading the article on that subject, then that article is probably going to receive more edits from that increased readership and thereby improve, and someone may even bump its importance level up (if for instance it gets ]), leading to further attention from those who otherwise would have filtered it out. I think the built-in self-correction mechanisms of this model can provide for all of these problems to solve themselves.

I am not going to Bugzilla yet with this, because I still haven't worked out all the details of how this could/should work. I think it should be tested on another wiki first. E.g., we are doing some soul-searching over at over what we want to include, and the question arises, Does any harm come from having non-notable content on the project? The only harm is that it gets in the way; it could clog RecentChanges and such. But if we can filter it out, it might not matter, and we would be freed from having to police the site and always be sitting in judgment as to what is notable enough to include and what isn't. I think it could reduce the potential for drama and bad feelings, if no one has to have their (otherwise well-written and in conformity with the encyclopedia's ]) article deleted for lack of notability.

I welcome any thoughts on this proposal and any insights that can help refine the details. ] (]) 17:31, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:tl;dr, but I should note that importance (and to a lesser degree, class) is subjective among wikiprojects. –]] 17:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::Good point. A starting point for the quality scale could be some of the attributes listed at, for instance, ] and ]. Still, it is noteworthy that people don't seem to get in too many conflicts about the assessments, until deletion becomes a possibility. For instance, at FAC, people will make objections, others will address the objections by editing the article or point out why the objection is non-actionable, and the process is pretty civil. Why do you suppose that is? I speculate it is because the spectre of imminent deletion isn't looming over people's heads, and any decision made is pretty reversible, whereas it can be pretty hard to reverse a deletion; for one thing, the content is removed and collaboration stops after a deletion. ] (]) 17:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::: You're right, there is very little warring when it comes to assessing an article, even the most popular ones. That's because class/importance of an article is not really important; it's just a way to indicate the status of an article, for a particular WikiProject. According to your proposal, though, the class and importance of an article would increase, which might lead to conflict, especially regarding what articles would be considered of "Top" importance. Anyway, the first step in this would be for an extension to MediaWiki to be created, then test it, then we can see exactly how it would work. Your proposal sounds promising, but also probably a bit idealistic and it assumes that people will actually spend more time working on high-importance articles than low- ones. Have a look at ] and ], as well as ] and you will see that that is not the case. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 17:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::::For someone who wants to publicize a certain topic, quality assessment decisions like FAC are very important. Consider, for instance, how the readership of ] went from to after it hit the main page. Yet FAC is still a pretty-laid back process, despite all that is riding on FA status.

::::There is a de facto quality measure, as least as far as completeness in concerned, in that the length of an article seems to affect its google ranking, and the sheer quantity of keywords makes a long article likely to show up in more searches. Redundant material tends to be eliminated by editors, and unsourced info tends to be removed, so any long article must have a lot of good stuff, may be Google's theory.

::::I agree that core articles are in bad shape. ], for instance, has always been in abysmal shape. I think it is because people do use Misplaced Pages for promotion of their pet causes/organizations/interests, and there is less incentive to write about such general, well-known subjects than a particular subset that the person perceives as yearning for more attention - e.g., a particular play, rather than plays in general. That's just the economics of the situation. But maybe we can bend economics to our advantage. If articles with higher quality ratings get more readers (as they already do to some extent, as in the main page and Google examples above), then people will have an incentive to improve, if not the core articles, at least the articles that pertain to their interests. That seems to have worked well in incentivizing people to raise articles to FA standards. (I think a lot of people pursue GA as just a step along the way to FA.) ] (]) 18:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

::::: Hitting the main page does, of course, increase views for an article, but only for that one day. Then the article goes back to stagnating like it was before. Most visits to Misplaced Pages come from web search results, and not from visiting the Main Page then clicking around. FAC is definitely not a laid-back process. Most of the people who don't have problems getting through the process have already done it before. Google rankings are barely affected by keywords; they are well known for not focusing on keywords, but rather on inbound links as they have been doing since they were founded. Ultimately, people will pretty much always edit whatever they want, regardless of how important an article has been subjectively determined to be. Also, general articles like the one you provide are very hard to write. It's easier to write about something concrete like an actual historic event or book. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 18:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

:::As I said, WikiProjects will ''usually'' agree on the class, but '''importance''' is a horse of a different colour. While Toronto is of top-importance to WikiProject Toronto, it is considered high-importance to WikiProject Cities whereas WikiProject Foo may consider it only 'low' importance. –]] 18:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


I run the WP 1.0 bot. The bot does keep importance and quality information in a database on toolserver. If there is a need to get this information in an automated way, I can probably implement an API to allow tools to query the data.

There are a few issues with conflicting ratings:
* Importance ratings will vary wildly between projects. For example, an article might be very high importance for WikiProject Alabama but very low priority for WikiProject Geography.
* Quality ratings are usually less varies. But a few projects have A-class checklists, and so an article might be rated B by them even if it is rated A by others. There are also B-class checklists.
* Some projects use non-standard ratings like "Bottom-importance" or "B+-class".

I will not be following this thread so please contact me separately if there is something you'd like to see in the WP 1.0 bot. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 18:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::::(ec) Setting an importance for an arcticle across Misplaced Pages as compared to the current system of setting an importance per wikiproject is not likely to be agreed apon easy. Why have one importance rating rather then the existing system? Regards, ] <sup>(])</sup> 18:34, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Since deletion is already a sitewide importance decision that override WikiProject consensus, part of the idea is to replace the steep cliff of notable enough for inclusion vs. non-notable enough to merit deletion, with a more finely-graded slope for determining what level of obscurity an article should be relegated to. This could make decisions less acrimonious, as in close cases all that is riding on it is an upgrade/downgrade between, say, Start-Class and C-Class, or Bottom-Importance and Low-Importance. This is kinda analogous to the reasoning adopted by the ] in setting up a ] with 43 overlapping levels; they figured it would prevent steep cliffs that would cause a lot of legal wrangling and appeals over whether, say, the defendant possessed 49 grams of crack or the 50 needed to push him over the edge into a much harsher sentence.

Even if it were just a binary notable/non-notable dichotomy, a field for importance differentiation could allow for some filtering and thereby make it possible to dispense with deletions of content that some people find useful but the bulk of people would rather not see. The goal is to minimize deletion, and even to eliminate it with the exception of that which is legally required to be deleted, and to minimize the harmful effects of such a policy. The question has to be asked, "Why do we want to delete non-notable stuff?" It's because we don't want it hanging around the wiki. But if you can avoid having it interfering with what you're trying to accomplish, it's as good as if it weren't there. So in that way, everyone gets what they want (or most of what they want, anyway). ] (]) 18:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:This is now . ] (]) 10:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

::No, it's because if every non-notable concept was allowed to split into its own article, instead of remaining as part of a larger, notable concept, then the encyclopaedia would devolve into a category/outline tree containing only poorly sourced (if at all) stubs and spam. ] <small>(] • ])</small> 12:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:Notability is only indirectly related to the importance ratings used by Wikiprojects. It is entirely possible for an article to be about an obviously notable topic to be rated low-importance by a project simply because it isn't strongly connected to the the project. ], for example, is an obviously notable person, however ] considers the article to be of low importance with regard to the state of California. Assessment isn't related to notability at all. Assessment is a measure of article quality. There are plenty of high-quality articles about barely notable subjects and plenty of stubs about extremely important topics. Proposing this as an end run around notability is going to attract much more opposition then just as a technical change to improve metadata. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 16:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::I'm not sure there's any point to having an importance field for each article (as opposed to the current scheme in which each WikiProject assigns its own measure of importance) except to help implement an alternative to deletion of non-notable articles. WikiProjects can probably agree on quality metrics more readily, though.

::@OrangeDog: If we get rid of ] but keep ], might that not take care of the "poorly sourced (if at all)" pages problem? Also, are stubs worse than no article at all? Lastly, notability policy is not necessarily needed in order to ensure consolidation of stubs into a larger article; there are notable subjects that nonetheless have no potential to grow beyond a stub, and we therefore merge and redirect. The same can be done with non-notable subjects. A ], for instance, is not necessarily a bad thing, if each item is sourced. ] (]) 13:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::The problem is that you're trying to turn what could be almost a no-brainer technical change (I can't really imagine why anyone would oppose a system that can cleanly and completely replace the current template-based system for wikiproject tagging - if that's all it does) into a massive, sweeping policy change that would basically deprecate ] and all the more specific notability guidelines, would probably turn ] into a shell of what it is now, would require major revision to ], ], ], and the ] system, possibly require changes to other policies (any policy that mentions deletion), and then create a whole new policy on the use of this new system as well. You saw how much opposition there was for PWD, do you honestly think you're going to get support for all this? <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 01:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== Is there a watchlist tool? ==

Is there a tool to show all my recent diffs for watched pages?

For example, suppose I edit an article; call this edit A. Then other editors make edits B then C to the same article. In my watchlist, the only change shown is C. Is there a tool that would show the intervening edit B in addition to C, both as their diffs? This would make it easy to see what changes have happened since I last ran the tool. ] 18:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
: Go to your Preferences -> Watchlist -> "Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent". <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 18:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

== Static GIF images not being resized by MediaWiki for years now. When will MediaWiki resizing return? ==

Static GIF resizing by MediaWiki worked fine years ago. Then some <s>idiot</s> ''Wikimedia developer saint'' turned it off, and the rest of the developers left it turned off for years (except for a few months). See ] and ]

See ] or any category with lots of charts, graphs, diagrams, or maps in GIF form. They take many minutes for dialup users to load. The Octave Uzanne thumbnail images look blurry now, but looked sharp when MediaWiki resized them. --] (]) 18:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
:For that particular issue, ] When properly done and then run through optimization software, the file size is often less. ] and ] (here, not on Commons) used to automatically process GIF images tagged with {{tl|ShouldBePNG}} (where conversion results in a file-size reduction of the ''full size image''), but that task does not seem to be active anymore. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::Unnecessary. ] is an accepted copyright-free format for ] and ] images such as ]. Graphics such as ], ], ], ], ], ], ]s, ], ] designs, ], ], ], ], and ]. GIF is a ] format that works fine for graphics with less than 256 colors (which is true for most graphics).

::See also: ]. GIF images are fully accepted. Conversion to PNG might be necessary for some GIFs that use transparency. By the way, if you want an easy way to make ] images smaller (in kilobytes) I recommend ]. It can losslessly compress PNG images so as to use less kilobytes for the same image without any loss in image quality. Install the too. It installs instantly and includes even better PNG compression, ], which is easy to use in Irfanview. --] (]) 10:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

]
:] still applies even if you're talking about a paid staff member. They're still a member of the Wikimedia community. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 21:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
::See also ]. —] (] • ]) 00:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Lol. I repent. I will do 3 "Hail Jimbos" and smoke a fatty to calm down. Love the image. --] (]) 10:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Can some developers please respond? --] (]) 10:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems like it works to me: ]]] —] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 18:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

:The browser, not MediaWiki, is doing the GIF image scaling. The number of kilobytes downloaded for a thumbnail is the same as for the full-size GIF image. See ] for example. Check the image properties for some thumbnail GIF images there. You might have to use MS Internet Explorer to get the image properties if you are not using the most recent version of Firefox. Example thumbnail info: "327.96 KB (335,832 bytes)," and "1,971px × 2,714px (scaled to 87px × 120px)". That scaling is done in the browser. The full 327 KB is being downloaded for that tiny thumbnail GIF.

:That particular category has sharp, not blurry, thumbnails when MediaWiki does the scaling. Viewing that category's thumbnails is an easy way to tell if MediaWiki scaling of static GIF images has been turned on. --] (]) 23:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== Diff bugs ==

I suppose this is a waste of time. I keep begging for the stupid bugs in Misplaced Pages's diff generation to be fixed, but nothing ever happens. I despair. Is it just me?

Typical example of what I mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Amir_Khan_%28boxer%29&action=historysubmit&diff=353069392&oldid=348362877

Look at the vast amounts of red ink where, in fact, nothing at all has changed.

Please don't bother replying with hard luck stories about how difficult this stuff is to code. These are FUNDAMENTAL, GLARING BUGS, not esoteric niceties. Rant over for now, but I would so love it if you could help get this fixed. ] (]) 01:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC).
: Agreed. I suggest using ] for a better diff tool. You'll need an account to use it, though, of course. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 01:43, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::@IP_Address It's open source, send patches, if you so clearly understand how this is done. —] (] • ]) 02:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::Indeed, if they are FUNDAMENTAL and GLARING then you should be able to correct them yourself. ] <small>(] • ])</small> 12:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Total nonsense, OrangeDog, and you know it! ] (]) 23:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC).

== A bit of CSS signature help... ==

Well, I have spent sometime reading, and have tried to make my self a signature. What I have come up with is this:
:]]</span></font>
However, I get an "Invalid raw signature, check HTML tags" error when I attempt to use it. I have it at ~253 characters, did I miss something?
:P.S. - The full code is available at my ].<small>&nbsp;<span style="border:2px solid #000;padding:1px;">&nbsp;]&nbsp;</span>]</small> 03:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:: should do it. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 03:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this instead? :D :p
:<span title="Don't let me get in the way of your individuality. :p I don't mean to encourage conformism for conformism's sake, I just find highly customized sigs pretty distracting/confusing/unhelpful." style="border:2px solid lime;color:lime;padding:1px;background:fuchsia"><font style="text-decoration: blink;" color="yellow">A p<font color="lime">3</font>rson</font>]]]</span></font>
¦ ] (]) 12:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::NB, blinking signatures are disallowed per ] – <font color="#7026DF">╟─]]►]─╢</font> 17:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Mmm, but according to ], a policy, both policies and guidelines are meaningless because of ], a policy; and even if they weren't, they'd be meaningless because of ], a policy; and even if they weren't… % ¦ ] (]) 18:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::You clearly misunderstand ]. <font color="#A20846">╟─]]►]─╢</font> 06:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::::just musing, but it's probably best not to argue policy on a matter that does not help to improve the encyclopedia. --] 19:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::::: I think the blink tag tends to incite violence. It is dangerous, do not use it. <font face="Verdana">]&nbsp;(])</font> 20:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Was just mockery, anyways. ¦ ] (]) 20:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== Weird ==

So this was on ] for around 12 hours, "The following 193 pages are in this category, out of 197 total. This list may not reflect recent changes." It's not all that bad except for the fact that there is no second page. Any ideas? I'm going to finish emptying the category right now, but it's really weird that it's saying that. ] (]) 17:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== Long help desk archive page won't load ==

It doesn't even have "history" or "edit" at the top, or my name or links to my talk page and contributions. Usually it just takes a while, but this time it only loads the portion up to Oct. 10, 2006 and it appears to be at the bottom. Regardless of how many times I try. But I know I've seen the page as far as Oct. 15.]&nbsp;'''·''' ]&nbsp;'''·''' ]&nbsp;'''·''' 18:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. I'm curious about why it did that, though. Normally it doesn't just quit like that.]&nbsp;'''·''' ]&nbsp;'''·''' ]&nbsp;'''·''' 18:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:It's probably just the size of the page. It looks like there was an error that resulted in many of threads being duplicated (between 2.287 and 2.511, although a few have additional comments); this is a possible explanation for the length of that archive. ] (]) 23:54, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

== Script help ==

I use ], its incredibly useful to me for things like attack pages and requests for unblock etc, but because I'm in the UK and we're forward an hour now, new pages in the categories i'm watching appear are listed as being an hour earlier than they are to me, so I keep missing them. Is there anyway to change that in my vector.js?--]] 22:00, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:] → Date and time → Time offset. ---'''''—&nbsp;]<span style="color:darkblue">&nbsp;'''''</span><sup>]</sup> 22:59, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::But that would change my whole watchlist. Is there anyway to change it so the category items are listed an hour later?--]] 00:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

== Table rendering ==

Can somebody tell me why this table isn't rendering?

<pre>
{| {{table}}
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Conference'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Year'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Date Held'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Venue'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Host'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Theme'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Programme Chairs'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Conference Chairs:'''
| align="center" style="background:#f0f0f0;"|'''Site'''
|-
| WWW1||1994||May 25-27||Geneva, Switzerland/France||Cern||?||?||?||?
|-
|
|}
</pre>

I got it using http://excel2wiki.net/index.php where I pasted
<pre>
Conference Year Date Held Venue Host Theme Programme Chairs Conference Chairs: Site
WWW1 1994 May 25-27 Geneva, Switzerland/France Cern ? ? ? ?
</pre>

Any help would be appreciated!] (]) 23:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

:It can be fixed by removing the <code><nowiki>{{table}}</nowiki></code>, which doesn't appear to have any purpose. ] (]) 23:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
::That works! Was a template updated...I always used to include the {{tl|table}} template...do you know if there are broken tables because of this?] (]) 23:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
:::I've never seen the template before, but it looks like combining the two types of table causes problems. The {{tl|table}} template isn't transcluded in a large number of pages so maybe you could identify where it was used in ]. ] (]) 00:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

: Editors should use the updated WP-specific tool: . See ] for more information. ] (]) 03:58, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::See also: ] --] (]) 09:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
{{tl|table}} has always been useless in this case. It was never intended to be used like that. It doesn't do anything without any parameters, so the template was recently changed changed to spit out an error if it lacked parameters. But if you put the template where you did, the error message breaks the table and the error is never seen. Oops. That may be difficult to detect and fix, because as far as I can tell not even categories will work there. ] 18:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

== Templates on articles and talk pages to avoid perennial issues ==

At the Harry Potter articles, editors keep changing the title '']'' (correct, it's a Brtish book & author) to ''Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone'' (US market only). How can I show a banner at articles and talk pages to tell the world which is the correct title - I'm fed up with reverting. In talk pages, I'd like the banner to fix at the top even if the page is archived. --] (]) 06:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:Page can be move protected, and we could add an editintro warning about the title I guess. —] (] • ]) 11:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::AFAIK move protection works only for the article '']''. Unfortunately the title of the 1st book appears in many articles and talk pages - possibly all, because of the infobox - so all these articles and their talk pages need banners. --] (]) 16:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::People are going to change it with or without the big ugly banner at the top of the article. --]]] 16:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::::But when they do, at least there's something to refer to, rather than starting the debate from scratch each time. I've seen {{tl|tmbox}} used in talk page headers for this purpose, e.g.
{{tmbox|type=style|text=This article is about a British book. Agreement has been reached for the article to use the original British title, ''Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone''. }}
::::] (]) 17:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Something on the talk page, sure. Hidden comment or editnotice on the article, sure. Notices at the top of the articles, like now appear on ] and ], I don't like it. Also, between those two articles, the name was changed once in the past month. I can't think of any other article where that type of notice is at the top of the page. --]]] 17:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::Ew. Yeah, messages like that should not be in the article itself. The talk page and the editnotice is the correct place for that. ] 18:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::See . If there's no banner on the article to minimise the number of incorrect edits, I won't bother fixing the title of the 1st book - which appears in the articles about the books and on ]. --] (]) 22:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

::::::], see ] --] (]) 23:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

== Talk page comments on same indent level are not vertically separated as much as other comments—bug? ==

I've noticed for a while that if I add a talk page comment on same indent level as the one above it, I must add a linespace first, or the rendering doesn't vertically separate those two comments as much as it does comments on different levels of indentation. This discrepancy can produce the impression that the lower comment is a continuation of the higher, because the line spacing is the same as when a line wraps within a paragraph. The two different vertical spacings can be seen in the example at ] (second table, George's reply to Jane is too high: compare it with her reply to John above). In that example, it doesn't matter too much because the comments are so short they don't reach the right margin. But typically, comments do reach the right margin, and, depending how long the last line is, at a glance it's not always obvious that there's a break between two comments in this scenario. Is this a wikimedia bug? Or perhaps a css issue? I expect there might be a way to fix my css to make it look different to me, but obviously any fix should really produce the correct rendering for the default user, not just those who fix their own view. Anyone know a global fix for this? (Same in FF, Opera and IE, btw.) ] (]) 15:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:I think it's working as intended.
:So that people can seperate thoughts on different lines.
:Use a line break to seperate yourself from the poster above you. –]] 15:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

::Interesting that you consider the feature to ''allow'' that; I'd have said it ''afflicts'' it in just the same way! Those are paragraphs too (and may of course extend for more than a single line), so paragraph spacing (as opposed to wrapped line spacing) would be appropriate there too. So you think we should merely update ] and its examples to advise adding an extra linebreak in this scenario? ] (]) 16:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

::Putting the blank line in between seems to work for me (this post is the evidence). I do not think MediaWiki has "real" indentation. What most people call indentation is a special case of the definition list syntax where there is no defined term, not semantically correct. (Defined terms are lines starting with semicolons.) The closest we could have to "real" talk page indentation (without changing MediaWiki) would be to create a template similar to ]. The first parameter is the number of half-tabs to indent by; the second (2=) is the message. Use <nowiki><p></nowiki> to start a new paragraph. ] has a line separating each post to a talk page. Of course all this is avoided in LiquidThreads, but when would that be implemented? ] <sup>]</sup> 19:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::LQT is already enabled on some Wikimedia wikis, such as mediawiki.org (where it's optional page-by-page). I'd be mildly surprised if it weren't enabled optionally on most of the wikis within a year, although performance might need some work for the biggest ones. —] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 18:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

If this really bothers anyone, you could change the CSS to adjust spacing however you like. The : feature isn't really meant for indenting, though, it's meant for definition lists, like:

; Item 1 : Description/definition/etc.
; Item 2 : Description/definition/etc.
; Item 3 : Description/definition/etc.


=== Background ===
The spacing is meant for this case, not for talk page discussions. —] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 18:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
I have tested several VPNgate IPs, and very few of them are currently blocked. According to Misplaced Pages's policy on open proxies and VPNs (per ]), these should be blocked. Given the volume of VPNgate IPs, I propose using a bot to automate this process.
:See post above ("What most people call indentation..."); I already noticed that. Definition lists have some correct uses, for example, on my user page, and in ]. They are mostly used incorrectly though. And by the way, the CSS (to "fix" the formatting where a blank line is not left) is <code>dd { margin-top: 1em; }</code>, but that is far from perfect. It breaks multi-paragraph comments up because of the semantic incorrectness. ] <sup>]</sup> 04:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


This is building off ] on ].
== output of OS mapping API in wikipedia ==


I am posting here to gauge consensus needed for a ].
Today (1st April) the UK government agency the Ordnance Survey (OS) has released a new API & totally changed the licencing agreements which should allow the use of the best UK mapping data free for non-commercial purposes. It would be great to be able to use this to illustrate UK place & geography articles. & are available. I have generated a map (of ]) without any markers or routes which can be included, just to test the inclusion in wikipedia. I have stripped out the header code <nowiki>"<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">"</nowiki> closing <nowiki>"</html>"</nowiki> as they suggest if embedding the map in another application & put it on a page in my sandbox - ]. I am unable to get it to display the map. Any help appreciated. NB if editing it you must leave the API Key <nowiki><script type="text/javascript" src="http://openspace.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/osmapapi/openspace.js?key=832E76B2051F6AB8E0405F0ACA6011DE"></script></nowiki> alone as this tells the OS that it can be run on <nowiki>http://en.wikipedia.org/</nowiki>.&mdash; ] <sup>]</sup> 20:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:It is not possible to embed just any html into Misplaced Pages. In order to support it like this, you either need to export it to an image, or you should create a MediaWiki extension. But I would like to point out that Misplaced Pages does not accept or use material that is allowed only for non-commercial purposes. So in terms of Misplaced Pages usage, this material is useless. —] (] • ]) 20:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::I have no idea how to create a mediawiki extension - I just think these maps could be a really useful addition to UK geography articles. The phrase non-commercial is mine - not from their rules. On checking it doesn't say that - where would be the best place to get advice on the suitability (or otherwise) of using this API on wikipedia? I have already put requests for help/opinion on ] & ]. &mdash; ] <sup>]</sup> 21:34, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Problems that I see
:::#"Usage of the API is subject to Usage Limits and system capacity", yet we it seems we are not allowed to duplicate the service and provide our own resources to host it either.
:::#"This Agreement conveys a limited licence for You to use the API Key, Ordnance Survey Data, Developer Documentation and trade mark OS OpenSpace solely for the purposes of creating, delivering and maintaining a Web Application" so that means the material is not usable for books or other non-web application uses. This is a sever usage restriction
:::#"You may create Derived Data, and You may permit End User's to create Derived Data, in connection with Your Web Application. In the event that You or any End User creates Derived Data, such Derived Data shall be owned by Us" YUCK !!! you subsequently (5.4.2) get a license for your own work, which they can revoke if they stop liking you.
:::# (6.2) "Your Web Application must not fall into any one or more of the categories listed below." again a usage restriction
:::# (6.6) "Your Web Application must not be undertaken for, or in connection with, nor must it result in any Unacceptable Financial Gain. For the avoidance of doubt, this means that You are not permitted (nor may You permit others to) charge End Users any subscription or other fee for accessing and using the whole or any part of Your Web Application or the Ordnance Survey Data." commercial usage not allowed
:::# (6.8) "You must ensure that a copy of the EULA is made accessible to End Users through a hypertext link at the bottom of each page of Your Web application." that will NEVER happen on Misplaced Pages, we don't allow such things.
:::# (6.9) "You may only allow End Users to print a maximum of ten (10) paper copies, no greater than A4 (625 cm2) in size of any screen shot." Seriously ? that's not even close to being compatible with Misplaced Pages
::::I'm stopping here, because I think the point is clear, but there is plenty more where that came from. —] (] • ]) 21:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Having said all that. The data itself is licensed per the OpenData license and mostly available . It's just the API that has a crazy set of unneeded restrictions. —] (] • ]) 22:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


=== Proposal ===
::As far as I'm concerned, any product that hires a gazillion lawyers to draw up something as unreadable , isn't worthy of using the name "Open" btw. —] (] • ]) 21:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I propose a bot to automate blocking these VPNgate IPs using the following steps:


# The bot will use provided by VPNgate, which contains OpenVPN configuration files in Base64 format. The provided "IP" value is only the one that your computer uses to talk to the VPN (and sometimes wrong), not the one used for the VPN to talk to Misplaced Pages/external internet - this requires testing to uncover.
:We can already use ] maps. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (User:<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 22:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
# The bot will iterate through each config file and use OpenVPN to test if it can connect. If successful, it will then use the VPN to send a request to to determine the real-world IP address used by each VPN to connect to Misplaced Pages. This is sometimes the same as the IP used to talk to the VPN - but sometimes completely different, see the demo edit I did using VPNgate on the Bot Requests discussion linked above and I also did one as a reply to this post. Also, testing is needed before blanket blocking because VPNgate claim to fill the list with fake IPs to prevent it from being used for blocking, again see the BR discussion.


'''Blocking or Reporting''':
== Could be helpful ==
* If the bot is approved as an admin bot, it will immediately block the identified IPs or modify block settings to disable TPA (see Yamla's recent ANI discussion per the necessity for this) and enable auto block.
* If the bot is not approved to run as an admin bot, it will add the IPs to an interface-protected JSON file in its userspace for a bot operated by an admin to actually do the blocking.


=== Additional Information ===
It would be helpful for editors with hundreds of articles on their watchlist, if the list was automatically adjusted (shortened) as they process it. What I mean is that when they tick ''diff'' on an entry on their watchlist, that particular notification would disappear from the list as they went off to see the change they were being alerted to, (but of course any subsequent change would appear later on the list). This would automatically decrease the clutter of the user's watchlist. Perhaps it could be added as an option in users' watchlist preferences. Comments? ] (]) 00:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
* I have already developed and tested this bot locally using Pywikibot. I have tested it on a local MediaWiki install and it successfully prevents all VPNgate users from editing (should they not be IP block exempt).
:I thought something like this would be useful, so I created a Windows application for myself that does something similar: ]. ] (]) 01:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
* I’m posting here to gauge broader community consensus beyond the original ] discussion.


=== Poll Options ===
:On the ], they have it set to bold any new changes, but this affects all the edits of the article, not just the ones changed since you last visited. Of course, you also have to refresh your list. ] (]) 02:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': Object to the bot proposal. Feel free to explain why.
* '''Support''' options:
# '''Admin Bot (admin given code)''': An admin will run the bot, and I will provide the code for them to run, as well as desired environment setup etc. and will need to send any code changes or packages updates to them to perform. ''Admin needs to be quite technically competent.''
# '''Admin Bot (admin gives me token)''': An admin provides me with the bot token (scoped per Anomie below) of a newly created account only for this purpose, allowing me to run the code under myself on Toolforge and fully manage environment setup (needs install and config of multiple python and brew packages not needed for standard pywikibot) as well as instantly deploy any needed code changes or dependency updates without bottlenecks. ''Admin only needs to know how to use Misplaced Pages UI and navigate to ], check some boxes, and then submit.''
# <s>'''Admin Bot (I run it)''': For this specific case I am permitted to run my own admin bot.</s> Withdrawn per Rchard2scout and WMF <code>viewdeleted</code> policy.
# <s>'''Bot without Admin Privileges''': The bot will report IPs for potential blocking without admin privileges. ''Not recommended per large volume.''</s> Withdrawn per 98 IPs/hour volume, too much for a human admin.
# '''Non-admin bot v2 (<u>preferred by me</u>)''': My bot, ] is '''not''' an admin bot. It can, however, add IP addresses that it finds are the egress of open VPNgate proxies to ] (editable only by the bot and ]/interface admins). This means I can run the code for it and manage the complex environment. An admin's bot will be running the uncomplicated code (doesn't require the complex environment and OpenVPN setup for this bot) to just monitor that page for changes and block any IPs added.


=== Poll ===
== Will $2 million Google donation be used to actually FIX BUGS? ==
* <s>'''Oppose''' for now. From reading that discussion, it looks like the IPs available through the API are only the "ingress" IPs, which is what you connect to on their side when using the VPN (and even then, it seems like the VPN client might sometimes use another IP instead?). If there's actually a publicly available list of outgoing IPs available, I'd be very surprised. From an operational standpoint, those IPs don't need to be public, and if they are, that's a serious error on their side. If we do somehow get our hands on a list, I'd be in favour of '''option 1'''. There's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --] (]) 08:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)</s>
*:Hi {{u|rchard2scout}}, I think you misunderstand the bot. The bot connects to each "ingress" IP and then finds out the "egress" IP that it uses by sending a request to a "what is my IP address API" (not associated with VPNGate in any way), then blocking the egress. This fully disables VPNgate on my local instance of MediaWiki. Thus, a list of egress IPs are not required, because it makes it own by connecting to each of the ingress ones and sending a request. I apologize if my documentation wasn't clear. ] <sup>]]</sup> 08:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*::Noting that I currently do have a complete list of "egress" IPs from my local run of the bot, so should I take your vote as a '''support''' of option 1 like you stated? Thank you. ] <sup>]]</sup> 08:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Oops, you're right, I somehow missed this. Hadn't had my first coffee yet ;). Striking, adding new vote.
*::That's so fine, my brain is a little laggy in the early morning as well! My technical/documentation writing probably needs some work as well, it's not my best skill (anyone please feel free to edit this post and make it clearer, if it's wrong I'll just fix it). Thank you for your time in reviewing this even though it's still the early morning where you are! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 09:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support option 1'''. Options 2 and 3 are probably incompatible with our local and WMF policies, because an admin bot can do anything an admin can do, and you haven't gone through RfA, so you're not allowed access to rights like {{mono|viewdeleted}}. Or (@ anyone who know this) are OAuth permissions granular enough that an admin can generate a token that allows a bot access to {{mono|block}} but not to other permissions? In any case, I think option 1 is the easiest and safest way, there's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --] (]) 08:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*: Hi {{u|Rchard2scout}}, thank you for your new comment and feedback. I hope your morning is going well! Ah yes <code>viewdeleted</code>, silly me to forget about that (I have the opposite problem as you before, it is far too late at night where I live!), I do recall it from someone else's declined proposal of admin sortion, I've struck Option 3 now per WMF legal policy. Re OAuth permissions, I know from using Huggle that when you create a bot token there's a very fine grained list of checkboxed for you to tick, and "block" is in fact one of them, so it is that granular as to avoid all other admin perms, I've expanded Option #2 above to clarify this and more circumstances. I do believe this would be my preferred option, per the reasons I've placed in my expansion, but are really happy with anything as long as we can deal with this LTA. Anyway, enjoy your morning! ] <sup>]]</sup> 11:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*: There's no grant allowing <code>block</code> but no other permissions. The minimum additional admin permissions would be <code>block</code>, <code>blockemail</code>, <code>unreviewedpages</code>, and <code>unwatchedpages</code>. ]] 12:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*: '''Support option 5''' as well, and that doesn't even need a BRFA or an RFC. We do then need consensus for the adminbot part of that proposal, so perhaps this discussion can focus on that. --] (]) 10:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*'''Option 1'''. I believe this is the only option allowed under policy. Admins need to run admin bots. This RFC is a bit complicated. Usually an RFC of this type would just get consensus for the task ("Is there consensus to run a bot that blocks VPNGate IP addresses?"), with implementation details to be worked out later. –] <small>(])</small> 12:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:'''Option 5''' is fine if the bot doesn't need to do any blocking and is just keeping a list up-to-date. Don't even need this RFC or a BRFA if you stick the page in your userspace (]). –] <small>(])</small> 09:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*I'd like to suggest an alternative approach: Write a bot or Toolforge tool that generates a data feed of IP addresses, starting with VPN Gate egress IP addresses, perhaps including the first seen timestamp and last seen timestamp for each egress. The blocking and unblocking portion of the process is relatively simple and a number of administrators could write, maintain, and run a bot that does that. (I suspect most administrators that run bots would prefer to write their own code to do that.) ] (]) 23:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Well, I started writing this suggestion before option 5 was added. Since it looks like this is basically the same as that option, put me down as being in favor of '''Option 5'''. ] (]) 23:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
** Hahaha, great minds think alike I guess! Thank you for your input. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
* Courtesy ping for {{u|Rchard2scout}} and {{u|Novem Linguae}} notifying them of the new preferred option 5 above, which I believe makes everything easier for both myself and the admin who wishes to help me (I'll leave a note on AN asking nicely once BRFA passes for MolecularBot). Also, {{u|Skynxnex}}, you expressed support for option 5 below, did you mean to format that as a support !vote in this section (my apologies for the confusing layout of everything here). Thank you very much to everyone for your time in reviewing this proposal and leaving very helpful feedback. ] <sup>]]</sup> 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*:I don't feel like I've thought about the different aspects to do a bolded !vote yet. ] (]) 15:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*::That's so fine, thank you anyway for your feedback! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 23:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)


=== Discussion ===
Or will it be used for Jimbo to try to invent another search engine, or for further development of the near-useless Liquid Threads?
*Hey, it's me, ] on VPNgate. This VPN is listed as 112.187.104.70 on VPNgate cause that's what my PC talks to. But, this VPN when talking to Misplaced Pages, uses 121.179.23.53 as shown which is <u>completely different</u> and '''not listed anywhere on VPNgate''', showing the need for actually testing the VPNs and figuring out the output IPs are my bot does. Can this IP please be ] blocked? ] (]) 06:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
**Can confirm this is me! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 06:24, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
* There is a relevant Phabricator ticket: {{phab|T380917}}. – ] <small>(])</small> 12:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
* I don't think non-admins can run admin bots. Perhaps you would like to publicly post your source code, then ask an admin to run it? cc {{u|Daniel Quinlan}}. –] <small>(])</small> 12:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
* I don't think blocking a single VPN provider will have the effect people want it to have. It's easy for a disruptive editor to switch VPNs. This is really a problem that needs to be solved by WMF. ] (]) 15:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:Hi {{u|Daniel Quinlan}}, I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the post but this is designed to work with existing WMF proposals that are being worked on. Both {{phab|T380917}} and {{phab|T354599}} block/give higher edit filter scrutiny based on existing lists of "bad" IPs, this is the same as the old ST47ProxyBot (which actually does scanning but doesn't monitor "egress" IPs, it only attempts to connect to the "ingress" and then blocks it if successfully). This is great for a wide variety of proxy services because ingress/egress is the same, but for modern, more advanced services like VPNgate (and perhaps some services that because a problem for us in future) the ingress IP address is often '''not the same''' as the one used to edit Misplaced Pages, and so requires this solution (this bot). I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Misplaced Pages, and by blocking it this significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks. This also creates the infrastructure for easily blocking any future VPN services that use different ingress/egress IPs - the bot can be easily expanded to use new lists. ] <sup>]]</sup> 21:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*What is the actual expected volume per day of new IPs to block? It looks like the current list has 98 ingress IPs (if I'm understanding the configuration blocks correctly). I'll also say I have pretty strong concerns about sharing "personal" tokens of any kind between users, particularly admin permission ones with non-admins. ] (]) 19:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:The list available through frequently rotates. It only provides 98 ingress IPs at a time, as you stated and refetching the list without passing returns the same 98 IPs. After 1 hour (estimated) passes, a new 98 IPs are randomly selected to be provided to all users - but these may include some of the same IPs as before because they are picked by random selection from the whole list of 6057 (not available to the public), this has happened a couple times during my data gathering. Therefore re volume per hour, the ''maximum'' number of IPs to be blocked is '''98''', but it could be less due to already blocked IPs being included in that given hour's sample of 98, I hope this makes sense if there's anything that needs clarifying please don't hesitate to ask. ] <sup>]]</sup> 21:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*::Re "personal" tokens it's actually not a "personal" token to the admin's account, it would be (in theory) a token to an adminbot account with the only things it can be used for being those helpfully specified by Anomie above. However, regardless I see the concerns so I've added a proposal 5 which hopefully is a decent compromise above and ensures that I don't have access to any admin perms/tokens, but that there aren't any bottlenecks and that admins don't need to setup a complex running environment. Thank you for your time in commenting, {{u|Skynxnex}}. ] <sup>]]</sup> 22:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::I see bot tokens as fairly similar to personal tokens since bots are associated with an operator. I think proposal 5 has promise. ] (]) 23:08, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:VPN Gate claims they have about 6,000 servers which is fairly close to my own estimate of how many IPs they are using. If we block each IP for six months, we'd end up averaging about 33 blocks per day. There would be a pretty large influx at the start, but I would want to spread that out over at least several weeks to avoid flooding the block log as badly as ST47ProxyBot did. ] (]) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*::It's worth noting that an unknown amount of 'servers' are user computers that people have volunteered cpu time for (this information is somewhere on the website), so, like we see often with IP users, the IP that each server uses can and likely will change with time. This doesn't mean that an effort like this bot won't help, of course, but it's unknown how effective (as a percentage) it would be with just 33 blocks a day. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 23:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::33 blocks per day is a rough estimate, not a limit. Certainly there will be some delay when adding entries to any list generated as proposed above so the block rate will never reach 100%, but the egress IPs don't seem to change that much over time based on what I've seen. ] (]) 00:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::So, I'm posting this anonymously through VPNGate because I don't want people to start suspecting me of things just because I admit to having used a VPN service some others are abusing to make disruptive edits here. Due to its strong base in Japan, I've used VPNGate many times in order to shop at Japanese web stores that block purchases from outside Japan (they typically don't want to offer international support and see this as the easiest solution for avoiding that), and I know a number of other people who've used it for similar reasons (also for Korea, which often has even more hosts available than Japan).<br>
*:::In any case, while I've personally never enabled this on my PC, I can confirm what IP 2804: said: there's definitely a swarm of short-term volunteer IPs associated with this service who aren't part of VPNGate proper. The overlap between such people and good faith Misplaced Pages editors may not be large, but it's unlikely to be zero. Unless you have a good mechanism to avoid excessively punishing such users for popping up on your list for the short period of time they themselves use the VPN, maybe it's better to wait for and official WMF solution, which (based on the phabs) seems to intend to take "IP reputation" into account and would thus likely exclude such ephemerals, or at least give them very short term blocks compared to the main servers. Because getting blocked here for several months for having been part of VPNGate for a few hours hardly seems fair.<br>
*:::Actually, now that I think about it: if you're going to connect to VPNGate servers for the express purpose of determining and blocking their exit IPs, you'd probably be in violation of their TOS. While you might consider this an "ends justifying the means" situation, are you sure you want to associate the WMF with such unauthorized usage? There's a difference between port scanning or getting an IP list via an API and actually '''traversing''' the VPN in order to investigate it. This absolutely is ''not'' a legal threat ''by me'', but if VPNGate were to learn of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they took action. Aren't there enough services out there that provide VPN IP lists without having to roll your own scanner? It would seem a safer bet for the WMF to use something like that. ] (]) 16:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::Oh, you didn't have to anonymise yourself, we don't cast ] here and now you won't get a reply notification but that's okay! :) I checked the terms of service of their website before making their bot and it just says not to do anything IRL illegal otherwise they'll give your logged data to authorities if subpoenaed, but I will reach out to the VPNgate operators in Japanese (good practice opportunity, huh) when I have time just to double-confirm they're okay with everything. But btw, they encourage checking that your IP has changed to demonstrate it has worked in their how-to-guides, and this isn't 'tranaversing" as we're not collecting data on every single node but only the public IP of the exit node. Re short-term volunteers, that's a great point, and I'll update the JSON schema of its published data to include a "number of sightings" number, so that the blocking adminbot would escalate blocks as this increases so maybe it starts really short term like 2.5 days/60 hours (6000 active volunteers on average, divided by 100 checked every hour, minimum time to ensure the IP has truly stopped) if it's just 1 sighting but ramps up exponentially if it's seen again as an egress IP untill we're talking like 6months - 2 years blocks. Re WMF tickets, the distributed fact of VPNgate that anyone can start hosting means that most VPNgate IP addresses won't have a bad "reputation" (I checked a whole bunch on a variety of reputation lists and the egresses always had "good"" reputations) so reputation checking won't help (but they need short term blocks), also as you can't publically see the egress with VPNgate cause it's different to ingress (unlike most networks). So WMF solutions are actually quite innovative and smart for most VPN/proxy networks, it's just that VPNgate is a bit different needing a unique solution, this bot. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I guess I'm just too careful or chicken even if most people would refrain from casting aspersions.<br>
*:::::I don't quite understand why you say you're not traversing. You're not just touching the network from one side, you're passing through it and coming out on the other side, that's traversing. However if they don't mind it, then I guess you're in luck. Ecxept maybe if those Japanese laws they mention a mllion times in their documents have a problem with something like this.<br>
*:::::I don't know what the WMF is basing its reputation measurements on. My meaning was that sites like browserleaks.com almost always seem to know about the VPN status of the exit nodes I've used over time. I don't know where they're getting this information from exactly, but that's what I meant by reputation, not whether they're good or bad but what they're known to engage in, like being a VPN node. And that database is probabably built either through collaboration or by specialized services, which the WNF can use as well. Like email providers use common antispam databases instead of each rolling their own.<br>
*:::::In any case, good luck with your bot, because I'm afraid these persistent abusers you want to keep out by this probably won't be averse to paying for commercial VPNs if they have to, and many of those only cost a handful of bucks a month. Commercial companies will almost certainly have a TOS that would prohibit your bot, so to counter them the WMF would in the end still have to resort to a specialist or collaborative VPN IP list of some kind. You can probably cut down on casual troublemakers by tracking VPNGate but I don't think it'll help all that much much against anyone highly motivated. They can even continue using VPNGate, it'll just be less convenient because they have to find brand new nodes before you catch those.
*::::: ] (]) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::I'm not sure what you mean by "Japanese Laws" they keep mentioning they don't seem to mention any, when I told you that the ToS said don't do anything irl illegal I was referring to which doesn't mention any "Japanese Laws" but just says don't do anything like CSAM like your government can subpoena us for, because we'll comply (and directions for LEOs to request this). Re reputation yes, the major VPNgate nodes that have done it for a while do have bad reputations, particularly 219.100.37.0/24 which is the example servers run by the university themselves - but as you said, because anyone can start a VPNgate server and then there's always brand new nodes that won't have bad reputations and can be abused. But - as I've stated in a different discussion above, the list of VPN servers to connect to only updates with new servers hourly, so while reputation services won't catch the new exit nodes (because they won't be used poorly enough to trigger flagging for a white), the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs. Re commercial services generally, unlike VPNgate, they use datacenters and static IPs that are assigned to "Hotspot Shield, Inc." (as an example) so it's easy to CIDR range block them and also the reputation of those deteriorates over time as they do bad things - the companies don't randomly get new IPs in random locations around the world, like VPNgate. In fact commercial reputation services excel at identifying commercial services (from my testing), but VPNgate is community distributed, like Misplaced Pages, and needs a unique approach. And yes, as I said to Daniel, I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Misplaced Pages (the bot currently has 146 IPs in its ] and as shown by the stats section of the , ~60% are currently unblocked (and this is an underestimate because the list is mainly the "obvious" ones that are always provided first in the 98 hourly sample, like 219.100.37.0/24. This is because the bot has only had 1 full run of all IPs in a given hour's list, and many failed partial runs of just the first couple. I think blocking VPNgate significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks - only looking at only 10 of the blocked IPs I see link spam, edit warring, block evasion, vandalism and our favourite ]. ] <sup>]]</sup> 08:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::They mention Japanese laws repeatedly in the texts shown when you click the licence and notice buttons under Help > About of the SoftEther VPN Client Manager. It's a canned statement saying they only comply with Japanese laws because they can't possibly follow every law worldwide.<br>
*:::::::{{tq|the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs}} Are you going to run multiple instances of the bot in parallel, because the 98 IP list you get per hour seems far from sufficient for make claims about a strong level of protection if there are ~6000 egresses, many of which churn. With your current setup, an abuser can get their own list refresh, which would be different from what the bot gets, run it past your very helpful :) IP check tool and then make edits from any IP not covered. Which may not be many, but they only need one out of their 98, so it's likely they'll get something as long as the volunteer swarm keeps changing.<br>
*:::::::Getting a bit more facetious, VPNGate could conversely determine the IP of your bot and block it as a censorship agent. :) I really think it contradicts the spirit of their operation even if they haven't prohibited it explicitly, since you don't happen to be a state agent. This is just my conjecture, but I'm guessing that if you looked at your IP list edits without focusing solely on the abuse, you'd also see constructive edits coming from them, quite possibly from people using VPNGate to bypass state firewalls. I am well aware of Misplaced Pages open proxy policy, but it can make editing somewhat difficult for such people.<br>
*:::::::These remain my two sticking points: while useful, the bot won't be quite as effective as you represent; and you're arguably abusing their service to operate yours.<br>
*:::::::Once this bot starts issuing blocks, you should probably amend ] to include verbiage about having used a VPN in the recent past, because this situation isn't really covered by the "you are using a VPN" or collateral damage statements. ] (]) 15:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::VPNgate does not have as firm of a ground as you claim. Yes, companies have terms of use and those terms of use often have clauses of disputes being filed in their local country. However, as multiple attourneys have pointed out, this local dispute solving when dealing with an customer from abroad does not really work. In reality, VPNgate is forced to deal with international laws, because otherwise they will just lose their case. (one of the legal opinions supporting this: https://svamc.org/cross-border-business-disputes-company-use-international-arbitration/ )
*::::::::As far as blocks go, yes, they could block one user, but let me remind you that there are 120,000 active wikipedia users. The script could just be passed on between users until all of their IP ranges are blocked. They would lose that war, every time. ] (]) 20:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::I don't recall claiming anything about firm ground. I have a problem with the WMF or parties associated with it engaging in somewhat questionable practices, even if it is for a good cause. I'm OK with port scanning or getting data from an API, because that's external probing, but actually passing through someone's premises with the intent of later restricting their users is something I find objectionable, and it is my conjecture that VPNGate would think likewise. If VPNGate blocked one user's bot, that would simply be an indication that they object to such activities, and having a million other users on the ready to take over would change nothing about that, and I'm fairly certain the WMF does not subscribe to this sort of hackerish way of thinking anyway. VPNGate aren't outlaws against whom anything goes, they operate a prefectly legitimate service, albeit one that some people abuse. It's also possible that it's just me, and VPNGate themselves have no objection to any of this. The OP was going to ask them, so I presume they'll inform everyone about the response sometime soon. ] (]) 11:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Yes, this is definitely not something that should be adversarial or "us against them" and if they express concerns about this behaviour, we should totally not try and evade it - after all VPNgate does share our mission of spreading free knowledge to the world (and are very useful to spreading Misplaced Pages and other websites around the globe, it's just some bad actors taking advantage of the kind service of both the university and the volunteers creating a problem). We just need to find a way to work together to ensure that we both can continue to do our things. Being the holiday season, it's pretty busy for me and I'm sure the ] for the operators so I will reach out in the new year re their thoughts on this. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Hi! The abuser can't get their own list refresh seperate from what the bot sees, I guess I wasn't clear before but what I meant was that '''everyone''' gets the '''same''' 98 IPs every hour, and then the next hour another 98 are randomly selected to be shown to everyone.
*::::::::Re censroship/state agencies this doesn't help state agents or censorship at all, because they want to block the input/ingress IP addresses that citizens would use to connect to the VPN network, and knowing the egress that the VPN network uses to connect to servers doesn't help them at all. I have clarified this in the README.md now so anyone who sees the project will know that it can't be used for censorship.
*::::::::Re users bypassing state firewalls, they can still read and if they want to edit we have ] for that (abusers could go through acc I guess, but then they can't block evade once their account gets indef'ed - and VPNgate has been used a lot by link spammers, people who want to edit war (especially someone who got really upset about ]s, I've seen a lot of edit warring from detected IPs about that) to evade the blocks on their main account).
*::::::::Btw, thank you for calling my tool helpful, I'm not the best at UI design but I tried to put some effort in and make it looks nice and have useful functions. Thank you to you as well for your time in providing soooo much helpful feedback to make the bot better. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::Also thanks for reminding me to provide guidance to users on this, I think the current ] block message doesn't really fit with the VPNgate mode of temporary volunteers (who the user effected might not even know about but could get a dynamic assignment with an IP blocked for a few days). I'll make a custom block template! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Tada I guess... {{tl|Blocked VPNgate}} Anyone reading this please feel comfortable to be ] and make it better if you'd like, it's still a very early draft. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 10:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::While tone of you thanks seems to include some aspersions :), you're welcome if what I've said has helped you. If the list is the same for everyone, you can indeed be a lot more effective. My point about censorship was less about you helping state censors and more about you using the loophole that VPNGate haven't said anything about private actors, and giving the impression that abuse is the ''only'' thing it is being used for. ] (]) 11:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::Oh no I'm really sad now, please don't take my tone when I thanked you in the wrong way (it can be both hard to express and pick up on the internet)! Maybe saying "sooooo" was a bit over the top, but you've genuinely gone back and forth with me a lot of times and always written detailed, logical suggestions or concerns to help, so genuinely, no sarcasm, thank you!!! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::All right then, and sorry about my tendency to lean a bit on the paranoid side. ] (]) 09:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::::That's so fine! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 05:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::How feasible would it be to make the list of IPs private/admin-only? I mean, they're still going to get blocked, and that's public, but I feel like making a ''public'' list, even if one may or may not already exist, might be an unnecessary step?
*:::::::::::If I ran a VPN service I'd be a lot less upset about Misplaced Pages defending itself than Misplaced Pages creating a public up-to-date list of VPN IPs that everyone can use, without effort, to mass block most of my VPN. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 02:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::::I'm not really sure, I don't think there's a way to restrict viewing a page on EnWiki (I could whip up a MediaWiki extension enabling "read protection" of a page, but I doubt the WMF would install it), but we do have things like checkuserwiki, arbcomwiki etc. which have limited viewership so prep haps the bot could operate on a new antiabusewiki (but this would require even more work from WMF than installing the extension) and then a stewardbot could issue global blocks from there? I would also have to take down and the (that anyone could just download code and run it to get their own list). But even if we don't have a list, it's trivial to query the MediaWiki API for block status (that's what the toolforge tool does in addition to seeing if the IP is listed at ] when you lookup an IP or generate stats), there's very high ratelimits for this, and you just need to check if the block reason is {{tl|Blocked VPNgate}} or whatever message the adminbot/stewardbot leaves. ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)


== contentious topics/aware plus "topic code" ==
How about we use the money to fix most of the around 4000 open bugs?


i want to add the contentious topics/aware template to the top of my talkpage, but ] says to substitute the template so i did but the israel/palestine topic code did not display. how do i include the topic code? ] (]) 19:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
How about spending money on some simple usability fixes such as integrated watchlists, talk page section watchlisting, GIF scaling, and so on.


:@] You don't need to subst that template, you would just do {{tlx|Contentious topics/aware|a-i}}. <span class="nowrap">--] (])</span> 19:51, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
When Firefox's Mozilla Foundation got millions of dollars from Google over the years, they wasted a lot of it in my opinion. They worked on grandiose plans, and failed to listen to people about fixing all the many Firefox bugs. They ignore their discussion boards much of the time.
::the topic codes page states that the template should be substituted. perhaps that should be removed, to avoid new people from make my same mistake? thank you ]. :) ] (]) 00:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Daddyelectrolux}} You wanted to use ] which doesn't say to use subst. ] is used to document other templates and it varies whether they require subst. I have added this to the documentation. ] (]) 12:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
::::To be fair, up until yesterday ] just linked to ]. I updated it so that it properly transcludes the table, which hides the <code>subst:</code> syntax. <span class="nowrap">--] (])</span> 15:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)


== Site is under maintenance ==
So what exactly are Misplaced Pages's plans for using the $2 million as concerns the many technical problems discussed in places such as this technical village pump? Where else but here can this be best openly discussed? Or is this one area where the Misplaced Pages consensus process (or at least open discussion) goes underground to unaccountable boards? --] (]) 12:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:As far as I know this money has not specifically been allocated, but I'm quite sure that it was one of the donations that convinced the foundation that it would be possible to extent the contracts of the Usability Initiative team, which would otherwise have reached the end of their contracts and objectives in the coming two months. The only proper place to discuss this is on the Foundation wiki, or the foundation mailinglist I suspect. —] (] • ]) 13:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
::This is a village pump where we discuss technical issues. Other wikis, such as the Foundation wiki, get very little traffic and community participation due to the lack of one of the feature/bugs I mentioned, ]. The mailing lists do not get much community participation due to the email list format, and because one's email address is exposed in the public archives. Same as at Bugzilla. That is another requested bug/feature, by the way, that has been ignored for years. I am talking about hiding email addresses in Bugzilla and the mailing list archives, as has long been done in most blog comments, major media page comments, Misplaced Pages, etc..


I was unable to complete an edit a few minutes ago. I got an error message saying the site was under maintenance. Clicking on "back" did get me the edit I was trying to make and a few seconds later I was successful.
::It is good to extend the contracts of those members of the Usability Initiative team that are making progress worthy of their pay. There needs to be open discussion though in my opinion about the balance between what is being budgeted for major initiatives such as the Usability Initiative, versus fixing bugs, and implementing long-requested bug/features. How do they blend together too? --] (]) 17:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


I posted just for documentation but I am having difficulty with a site that is very slow and I came here to do an edit to have something to do while waiting for pages on that slow site to come up. The slow site slows everything else down.— ]&nbsp;• ]&nbsp;• ]&nbsp;• 21:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)


== Blacklisted website not on any blacklist ==
:I'm not sure what integrated watchlists are, but I believe talk page section watchlisting is something that will be accomplished with the "near-useless Liquid Threads", it would not be in any way simple to do with the current discussion page format. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 15:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Implementing talk page section watchlisting would be simpler to do than fixing everything wrong with ] in my opinion. My experience with LiquidThreads at http://liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org was not good. I left many suggestions for improvement as did many others. --] (]) 17:19, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Most of the fixes you suggested seem to be mainly UI improvements. That is still far easier than redesigning almost the entire watchlist system, which is what would be required to do that with the current discussion page system. Adding individual talk page threads to watchlists (without redesigning how talk pages work in the process, which is how liquidthreads does it) is probably one of the least-simple commonly requested features, which is why it hasn't been done. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 19:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::I think I read that watchlisting individual sections of watchlists was a numbering problem. People sometimes add more sections higher up on a talk page. Section breaks and so on. So a basic fix might be implemented now, but it wouldn't be perfect. I would settle for that, even if some of my watched sections break now and then. I think a lot of problems occur when people try for perfection when mediocrity will suffice. ;)


I wanted to save an edit containing a link to tradingview.com but it keeps showing a message:
:::::Kind of like the GIF scaling problem. Static GIF scaling worked fine. Animated GIF scaling became a problem. Rather than separate the two, the developers tried for one massive fix of both together. Turned out to be a big mistake. Should have kept what worked. How does the saying go,... If it aint broke, don't fix it. --] (]) 23:21, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
::::::That's only part of the problem. The other part is that the watchlist system is designed with the assumption that only entire pages are watched. There currently isn't even a place in the database to put the section information. As for the GIF scaling fix, I believe it was turned off again because it ''was'' broken; it caused some animated GIFs to be displayed as still images or something similar. <span style="font-family:Broadway">]]</span> 00:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Please see: ] and ]. See also the related sections above and below them. Static GIF scaling/resizing has worked fine for years. The problem is with scaling/resizing animated GIFs. The solution is to separate the 2 tasks in MediaWiki. Problems pop up now and then with animated GIF scaling, due to the fact that scaling animated GIFs is far more complex, and there are many options on how to do it. It makes no sense to keep static and animated GIF scaling together. See the thread. It has been discussed there for months. --] (]) 12:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


"Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Misplaced Pages's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist. The following link has triggered a protection filter: tradingview.com "
:::::::Talk page section watchlisting would be most effective on Village Pump pages. That is where it is most needed in my opinion. Maybe if ] could be adjusted enough to fix the major problems, then maybe it could be tested on a Google $2 million dollar discussion page on a special village pump here on English Misplaced Pages. The main problem with Liquid Threads in my opinion is its lack of integration with current watchlists. We need ], not more separate watchlists. Plus Liquid Threads uses a really unsatisfactory form of "watchlist" called "new messages." It is not really even a watchlist. Most people prefer the simple scannable watchlists used everywhere else. --] (]) 12:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


::Talking of liquid threads (near useless or otherwise) - any news about when they're going to be deployed?--] (]) 15:40, 2 April 2010 (UTC) So I tried to figure out whether I shouldn't use that website as a source and on what blacklist that website is supposed to be but I couldn't find anything. Is that a bug? ] (]) 14:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
: It's on the global blacklist at ]. ]] 14:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::You might check here:
::Yeah. It was added in October 2017. See the ] and ]. &ndash;&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) <small>''Please do '''not''' ] on reply.''</small> 14:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::http://liquidthreads.labs.wikimedia.org
::Hm now I found it too, somehow the find tool in Safari wasn't able to find it. Thanks you both. Looks like I have to search for another source. ] (]) 14:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::]
:::] --] (]) 17:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


== ] ==
The $2 million is an unrestricted grant and will go toward Wikimedia's general budget. Much of that budget is spent on technical costs, including (increasingly) paid development. If you think that a few million dollars is enough to fix a significant number of bugs, though, you're mistaken. Even if it were entirely spent on hiring new developers, two million dollars would only get you two dozen or so. Many of the bugs users complain about the most would require weeks or months of developer time to properly fix. So it doesn't add up to thousands of bugs being fixed.


When I try to view this special page I just get the following error:
If you don't believe me, notice that Google made over $23 billion in profit for 2009, but there are in their browser, Chrome. Users of normal software inevitably outnumber developers by thousands to one, or (in our case) tens of millions to one or more. There is never any guarantee that the bugs you want fixed will be prioritized, unless you do it or pay for it yourself. That's reality for you. —] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) 18:43, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


{{!tq| 2024-12-21 18:40:02: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\RequestTimeout\RequestTimeoutException"}}
:You just gave me an interesting idea, although I have no idea whether it is reasonable: targeted donations to Wikimedia. I don't have enough money to fund something as big as Usability Initiative, but I would still like it if my few dollars would go towards fixing certain bug(s). Currently, there is no way I can do this, except maybe finding a developer and giving the money directly to him. ] (]) 20:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


Is anyone else getting this error when viewing that page? Thanks. ] (]) 18:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:Maybe we can put features/bugs to a vote. Get some discussion going, and find out what most editors would appreciate most, and how they would prioritize resources. Of course, let people know the difficulty involved with fixing particular bugs, or implementing certain features. Continue this process indefinitely. When it becomes apparent that some things are too resource-intensive, then move on to others if people feel that way. The board and staff can do what they want in the end, but at least they will have more grassroots perspectives to help in their decisions. --] (]) 23:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:It works now. Problems come and go. I had to restart my phone half an hour ago to get something to work. ''Extra: That was a problem with an app on my phone (nothing to do with Misplaced Pages).'' ] (]) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:I see a similar error when I try to check logs for ]. {{!tq| 2024-12-22 10:33:05: Fatal exception of type 'Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryTimeoutError'.}} – ] <small>(])</small> 10:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::Likely also worth noting that, above the error, it says {{tq|To avoid creating high database load, this query was aborted because the duration exceeded the limit.}} Though I suppose that's the definition of a timeout... &ndash;&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;•&nbsp;]) <small>''Please do '''not''' ] on reply.''</small> 15:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:Tracked at ]. – ] <small>(])</small> 18:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)


== Colors of images in {{tl|Infobox government agency}} are inverted in the dark mode ==
::Bugs in bugzilla already have votes, but I'm not sure whether developers actually consider them when deciding what to do. ] (]) 23:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


When the {{tl|Infobox government agency}} template is included into some page, SVG images inside it have their colors ] if the dark mode is on. See, for example, the article ], specifically the seal: it should have dark blue outter ring, white inner circle with a brown eagle, but instead you can see the seal with a bluish-white outter ring, black inner circle with an orange eagle. Looked at several other infobox templates, none of them have a simmilar issue. Also, only vector images are affected by this, raster images are not. I wanted to try to debug it, but the template is fully protected. ] (]) 17:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::Not really, AFAIK. I did create ] in an effort to improve (two-way) communication between devs and enwiki community. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:46, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


:@] it's most likely by {{ping|Jonesey95}} that has introduced the behaviour. Probably best discussed at ]. ] (]) 18:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::That is an idea. A dedicated Village Pump on Bug/Feature prioritization would get more traffic and discussion. If people could bookmark and watchlist the individual talk sections, then even more participation would occur.
::See ]. A more comprehensive fix is welcome. The sandbox is open for anyone to edit. – ] (]) 18:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::This is not an acceptable solution, please revert. ]&nbsp;] 20:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The reason skin-invert worked for signatures was that white writing paper is common and even though colors in pens is varied, the most commonly used ones are dark.
:::Logos are not created on the basis of a palette of colors, unlike signatures. Logos are created to be visible and understandable from far away and close up. As such, they should not be inverted at large.
:::I consider the edit request in the template to be unactionable, as it did not ask for any particular solution, not even a hint at one. ] (]) 23:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm not sure why people are continuing to reply here. This discussion will be lost in the archives of VPT; please post at the template talk page with comments, suggestions, proposed fixes, or requests. – ] (]) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::@]: I am not buying that argument for one second, also you are refusing to talk about the issue itself. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. Most issues are solved during discussion not after, it being "lost in the archive" is a non starter as an argument. Clearly neither myself or Sjoerddebruin are going to move this discussion to the template talk page. If you continue attempting to refrain from discussing about the issue itself, consider this your first warning. I would also like to voice my disappointment of how you are handling this, I do expect better than this. ] (]) 09:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::::Responding like this and bypassing the instructions that are clearly indicated at the top of the template page is really something, especially with an unsure edit summary. ]&nbsp;] 09:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::::::I wasn't discussing the issue here because of ]. See the template's talk page for further discussion. I have reverted the change and continue to welcome a better way to fix the problem that was identified and that is still present. – ] (]) 15:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Historical use of File:Wiki.png as the top-left logo ==
::::I found this interesting talk page that combines the standard talk page and Liquid Threads:
::::]
::::Standard talk page sections are on top. Liquid Threads is on the bottom. Note that the Liquid Threads topics can be watched individually, but "watched" means only that new replies show up in "new messages" linked from the top of the talk page. --] (]) 13:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


I wonder if anybody remembers some technical details of the use of File:Wiki.png for the logo in the top-left corner during the 2000s (not limited to enwiki). ] led me to asking this. I found some clues on Commons – quoting myself from the aforementioned discussion:
== IPA font rendering in Firefox ==
{{tq2|1=
The log for File:Wiki.png shows two interesting entries:


* protection, 11 July 2005: {{tq|it's the sitewide logo in the upper left corner. Very bad if it were to get vandalized.}}
Hi,
* deletion, 7 October 2005: {{tq|block upload of local logos for other wikis. Commons now uses ] as the site-wide logo. See also ].}}


] is also interesting. :
It seems that the .IPA class doesn't work correctly in Firefox 3.6 on Windows. See ].


{{tq2|1=] should be moved to a different name (already re-created at ]) as it currently is aliasing that name on every wiki project and therefore not allowing local logos on those projects. Tim has already changed the logo location, so it shouldn't break the commons logo, but we should wait about a week before moving it to give time for the caches to update. The logo is now hardcoded so there is no need to protect this specific image.}}
Can this be fixed without making users edit their private CSS?
}}


Does anybody remember any further details?
Thanks in advance. --] (]) 12:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


Thanks, ] (]) 20:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
== Issue with switchs and colors ==


:I don't really remember, but we have historical records of the configuration going back to 2012. The current system, where logos of each wiki are stored in the configuration, was introduced in 2015 in ] and other commits around that time. Wikis had the option to use the locally uploaded Wiki.png as a logo until 2017, when it was removed in ]. Alas I don't really know the historical context around these changes, I just found them in the history. ] <small>]</small> 14:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
See ] for the problem. {{para|text-color}} isn't treated correctly when a hex-color is given. See {{tl|saved book}} and {{t|pp-book-cover}} for the templates used to generate the text. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] / ] / ] / ]}</span> 17:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks. ] (]) 14:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)


== Log out ==
:I fixed it with a &amp;nbsp; hack for the moment. I'll need to look more carefully as to why it's happening (because it shouldn't be). --] 18:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


I keep logging out every time I close the browser on my phone. ] (]) 22:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::<nowiki>{{#if: #ee2222| #ee2222|CornFlowerBlue}}</nowiki>seems to introduce a linebreak for some reason. Strange... —] (] • ]) 18:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


:Do you have some sort of ad blocker or privacy thing enabled that isn't allowing you to save cookies perhaps ? —] (] • ]) 22:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
:::The problem is this switch statement snippet: <code><nowiki>{{#switch:{{lc:{{{cover-color|}}} }} |black={{{text-color|black}}} |{{{text-color|}}} }}</nowiki></code>. for instance, if you test just this, like so:
::{{ping|TheDJ}} I have some sort of ad blocker enabled. ] (]) 22:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
<pre>AAA{{#switch:{{lc:{{{cover-color|black}}} }} |black={{{text-color|#96e}}} |{{{text-color|#e69}}} }}BBB</pre>
:::what you get is
AAA{{#switch:{{lc:{{{cover-color|black}}} }} |black={{{text-color|#96e}}} |{{{text-color|#e69}}} }}BBB
:::Notice how (for some reason) the SWITCH statement is adding a carriage return, which then forces the #-sign to get interpreted as a list element. seems like a bug to me. adding the non-breaking spaces fixes it by keeping the #-sign from being the first character on the line, but it ''is'' a hack. --] 18:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


== Cat-a-lot gadget ==
:::::&amp;nbsp; breaks things since it's not allowed in the css. &amp;#32; works however. Thanks for the help. <span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] / ] / ] / ]}</span> 01:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi. To follow up a query ] had on my talk page, I wanted to see if there was any way that edits using ] could be marked as minor by default? At present there is now way I am aware of to mark these edits as minor. Alternatively, would there be another way these edits could be filtered out of watchlists? We have a tick box to hide "page categorization", so could they maybe be included in that for example? Thanks. ] (]) 23:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
::::I think this is another instance of {{bug|12974}}. ] (]) 18:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


:] says there's a preference for that, it also shows this image: ]... is that just outdated info? does the interface still look anything like that?
I′ll let you consider the following and draw your own conclusion. ―] 21:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
:Edit: erm, right, ] also shows how to set preferences with javascript, which I think is what you might have to do if there is no option (due to it not being a gadget on Misplaced Pages? You installed it as an user script, at least.) &ndash; ] (]) (]) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
{| class="wikitable" style="margin:0px;"
::Aha! The userscript you imported the gadget from (], you import them ]), manually sets the preference, including a <code>minor: '''false'''</code>!
! input !! output !! html
::I'm pretty sure you can overwrite that by just adding a line setting the preference after you import the script, but you could aso just copy their script into your common.js (replacing the import) and change that part to <code>minor: '''true'''</code>, that would also do what you want. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 02:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
|- style="vertical-align:top;"
:::Hi. Thanks for this. I've updated ], but this doesn't seem to have changes things. Perhaps I've not done it right? ] (]) 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
| <pre style="margin:0px;">
::::Then I'm really not sure hm, looking at how other people did it, like ] (which seemed to work: ]), but I'm not really seeing much different? I mean it's set after the import, I guess. Well that and they are importing the gadget two different times, in two different ways...
{| style="background:{{#ifeq:a|a|#ffaaaa|green}};"
::::I did find ], but I cannot confirm that it works, since Liz seemingly never used it.
| pink
::::If those don't work then I don't know, I'm sorry. Can't test it without an account anyways - maybe someone else will know. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 21:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
| style="background:{{#switch:z|x = yellow| z = #aaaaff}};" | blue
:::::Huh... the script you used was intentionally set to false this year: ]
|}</pre>
:::::Because ] says adding and removing categories is not a minor edit... &ndash; ] (]) (]) 21:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
|
::::::Good find. I have to admit this isn't a guideline I could recall. Think it's generally an accepted practise to mark as minor any automated cat additions done on mass, as long as they're not in contentious topic areas or especially BLP sensitive etc. It was an admin that made this request to me after all. At any rate, you've definitely solved the cause of the issue here. Appreciate your help. ] (]) 01:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
{| style="background:{{#ifeq:a|a|#ffaaaa|green}};"
| pink
| style="background:{{#switch:z|x = yellow| z = #aaaaff}};" | blue
|}
| <pre style="margin:0px;">
<ol>
<li>ffaaaa;"</li>
</ol>
<table>
<tr>
<td>pink</td>
<td>style="background:
<ol>
<li>aaaaff;" | blue</li>
</ol>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</pre>
|- style="vertical-align:top;"
| <pre style="margin:0px;">
<table style="background:{{#ifeq:a|a|#ffaaaa|green}};">
<tr>
<td> pink </td>
<td style="background:{{#switch:z|x = yellow| z = #aaaaff}};"> blue </td>
</tr>
</table>
</pre>
|
<table style="background:{{#ifeq:a|a|#ffaaaa|green}};">
<tr>
<td> pink </td>
<td style="background:{{#switch:z|x = yellow| z = #aaaaff}};"> blue </td>
</tr>
</table>
| <pre style="margin:0px;">
<table style="background: #ffaaaa;">
<tr>
<td>pink</td>
<td style="background: #aaaaff;">blue</td>
</tr>
</table>
</pre>
|}


== Is it unproblematic to use `lang=` spans in section headers? ==
:hmmm... the conclusion I draw from that is that the template should be rewritten with HTML rather than wikitext. is that what you were aiming at? {{=)}} happy to do it, if so... --] 05:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
That probably would be safer than the predescribed hack which relies upon the software changing {{code|&#32;}} to a literal space, but not doing it too early. ―] 06:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
::That doesn't explain why these parserfunctions introduce linebreaks in the first place in this case though. —] (] • ]) 13:19, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
:::] —] (] • ]) 13:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


Of course, I know it's wrong to use templates like {{tlx|lang}} in section headers, but I know anchors work correctly in the transcluded HTML, so is there any reason a header like <code><nowiki>=== <span lang="la">Tu quoque</span> ===</nowiki></code> would break something? <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
== Logging in ==


:Considering how {{tls|anchor}} works in section headings, this ''should'' be fine. I tested it in the sandbox and nothing went immediately wrong. ] (]) 05:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I can browse and edit wikipedia as an IP address, but for the last several weeks, if I try to log in, then it says "Log in successful" but the page won't load, and then wikipedia becomes completely inaccessible. Once this happens, I try clearing all the cookies and cache but there is still no connection to wikipedia. I try switching to a different browser but once wikipedia won't load then it won't load via any browser. The only thing that seems to work is: logging in, closing the tab, wait for about 10 minutes then try wikipedia again. Why is this happening? Why the 10 min wait?
:When considering whether markup is OK in headings, there are several things to check - these include:
:*Whether the heading is actually broken, such as the appearance of the terminal equals signs in the rendered page
:*Whether inward links work from normal Wikitext
:*Whether inward links work from special pages (e.g. the little arrows in a watchlist)
:There may be others. But generally, a {{tag|span}} tag pair is fine. --] &#x1F98C; (]) 11:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)


== Question from ] ==
Sometimes switching the broadband on and off again in order to get a new dynamically assigned IP address works, but not always. I've tried turning off all firewall and anti-virus software but the problem persists even then. The problem is erratic - sometimes the login works fine. I'm from the UK on a BT broadband. Is there a problem between Misplaced Pages and BT? When this happens I can still access the rest of the internet and use a web-proxy to browse Misplaced Pages (but not edit). BT says it must be something at Misplaced Pages causing this. Is Misplaced Pages blocking connections from BT? Is BT secretly blocking access to Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 12:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
:What do you mean by “the page won't load”? Do you get any error? Or is the loading taking forever? ] (]) 12:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
::I mean it takes forever, and if I close the tab and try to load any other wikipedia page then it comes up with a conection error message. ] (]) 14:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


Hello everyone, i created my own template &mdash; <nowiki>{{Golden Badge Award}}</nowiki>, but it does have documentation, could someone explain to me how i could add documentation in the template. &‐] (]) 12:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::It is also possible that you have CSS or JS installed that is broken. An administrator can help you if you give your username. If you don't want to do that here, I suggest going into . Do "!admin I need help" and wait until an administrator is available to help you. —] (] • ]) 13:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
:{{ping|Raph Williams65}} I guess you meant it does ''not'' have documentation. After posting here you created ] which is shown at ]. Is there still something you want help with? ] (]) 21:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
:::I've started new usernames. The same problem persists with any new username. ] (]) 14:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
::{{ping|PrimeHunter}} after i asked the question, i went to ] and found my answer. &mdash;] (]) 04:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
‐


== Delivering pings on the watchlist page ==
== Help reverse redlinks ==


Apologies if this is old hat. Like many people, I sit on my watchlist page, clicking the "View new changes" link every so often. This would keep me up to date with stuff that I wish to be informed of, ''except'' that pings are not delivered. (By "delivered" I mean that the ping icon appears at the top of the page.) I only see that I have been pinged if I go to some other page. Would it be easy to deliver pings on the watchlist page too? For example, clicking the "View new changes" link could be added to the actions that cause ping delivery. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Rich put together a great list of derm ICD9 codes at ]. However, many times the redlinks utilize a comma, like ]. Therefore, I wanted to know if someone would help reverse all the redlinks with commas. So, with the previous example, the redlink would be changed to ]. Thanks in advance! ---] (]) 17:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:Working on it automatically using ] (assumptions will be made about capitalisation which you may want to check). All links, blue or red, will also be affected. - ]&nbsp;<sup>]? ].'']</sup> 14:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 04:01, 26 December 2024

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VPNgate blocking bot

I am seeking consensus on a proposal to develop and deploy a bot to help block VPNgate IP addresses used by a particular WP:LTA. For WP:DENY/WP:BEANS reasons, I cannot provide full details, but users familiar with the LTA in question will understand the context.

Background

I have tested several VPNgate IPs, and very few of them are currently blocked. According to Misplaced Pages's policy on open proxies and VPNs (per WP:NOP), these should be blocked. Given the volume of VPNgate IPs, I propose using a bot to automate this process.

This is building off this discussion on WP:BOTREQUESTS.

I am posting here to gauge consensus needed for a WP:BRFA.

Proposal

I propose a bot to automate blocking these VPNgate IPs using the following steps:

  1. The bot will use this list provided by VPNgate, which contains OpenVPN configuration files in Base64 format. The provided "IP" value is only the one that your computer uses to talk to the VPN (and sometimes wrong), not the one used for the VPN to talk to Misplaced Pages/external internet - this requires testing to uncover.
  2. The bot will iterate through each config file and use OpenVPN to test if it can connect. If successful, it will then use the VPN to send a request to this WhatIsMyIPAddress API to determine the real-world IP address used by each VPN to connect to Misplaced Pages. This is sometimes the same as the IP used to talk to the VPN - but sometimes completely different, see the demo edit I did using VPNgate on the Bot Requests discussion linked above and I also did one as a reply to this post. Also, testing is needed before blanket blocking because VPNgate claim to fill the list with fake IPs to prevent it from being used for blocking, again see the BR discussion.

Blocking or Reporting:

  • If the bot is approved as an admin bot, it will immediately block the identified IPs or modify block settings to disable TPA (see Yamla's recent ANI discussion per the necessity for this) and enable auto block.
  • If the bot is not approved to run as an admin bot, it will add the IPs to an interface-protected JSON file in its userspace for a bot operated by an admin to actually do the blocking.

Additional Information

  • I have already developed and tested this bot locally using Pywikibot. I have tested it on a local MediaWiki install and it successfully prevents all VPNgate users from editing (should they not be IP block exempt).
  • I’m posting here to gauge broader community consensus beyond the original WP:BOTREQUESTS discussion.

Poll Options

  • Oppose: Object to the bot proposal. Feel free to explain why.
  • Support options:
  1. Admin Bot (admin given code): An admin will run the bot, and I will provide the code for them to run, as well as desired environment setup etc. and will need to send any code changes or packages updates to them to perform. Admin needs to be quite technically competent.
  2. Admin Bot (admin gives me token): An admin provides me with the bot token (scoped per Anomie below) of a newly created account only for this purpose, allowing me to run the code under myself on Toolforge and fully manage environment setup (needs install and config of multiple python and brew packages not needed for standard pywikibot) as well as instantly deploy any needed code changes or dependency updates without bottlenecks. Admin only needs to know how to use Misplaced Pages UI and navigate to Special:BotToken, check some boxes, and then submit.
  3. Admin Bot (I run it): For this specific case I am permitted to run my own admin bot. Withdrawn per Rchard2scout and WMF viewdeleted policy.
  4. Bot without Admin Privileges: The bot will report IPs for potential blocking without admin privileges. Not recommended per large volume. Withdrawn per 98 IPs/hour volume, too much for a human admin.
  5. Non-admin bot v2 (preferred by me): My bot, User:MolecularBot is not an admin bot. It can, however, add IP addresses that it finds are the egress of open VPNgate proxies to User:MolecularBot/IP HitList.json (editable only by the bot and WP:PLIERS/interface admins). This means I can run the code for it and manage the complex environment. An admin's bot will be running the uncomplicated code (doesn't require the complex environment and OpenVPN setup for this bot) to just monitor that page for changes and block any IPs added.

Poll

  • Oppose for now. From reading that discussion, it looks like the IPs available through the API are only the "ingress" IPs, which is what you connect to on their side when using the VPN (and even then, it seems like the VPN client might sometimes use another IP instead?). If there's actually a publicly available list of outgoing IPs available, I'd be very surprised. From an operational standpoint, those IPs don't need to be public, and if they are, that's a serious error on their side. If we do somehow get our hands on a list, I'd be in favour of option 1. There's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hi rchard2scout, I think you misunderstand the bot. The bot connects to each "ingress" IP and then finds out the "egress" IP that it uses by sending a request to a "what is my IP address API" (not associated with VPNGate in any way), then blocking the egress. This fully disables VPNgate on my local instance of MediaWiki. Thus, a list of egress IPs are not required, because it makes it own by connecting to each of the ingress ones and sending a request. I apologize if my documentation wasn't clear. MolecularPilot 08:44, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Noting that I currently do have a complete list of "egress" IPs from my local run of the bot, so should I take your vote as a support of option 1 like you stated? Thank you. MolecularPilot 08:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Oops, you're right, I somehow missed this. Hadn't had my first coffee yet ;). Striking, adding new vote.
    That's so fine, my brain is a little laggy in the early morning as well! My technical/documentation writing probably needs some work as well, it's not my best skill (anyone please feel free to edit this post and make it clearer, if it's wrong I'll just fix it). Thank you for your time in reviewing this even though it's still the early morning where you are! :) MolecularPilot 09:38, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Support option 1. Options 2 and 3 are probably incompatible with our local and WMF policies, because an admin bot can do anything an admin can do, and you haven't gone through RfA, so you're not allowed access to rights like viewdeleted. Or (@ anyone who know this) are OAuth permissions granular enough that an admin can generate a token that allows a bot access to block but not to other permissions? In any case, I think option 1 is the easiest and safest way, there's plenty of admins available who are able to run bots. --rchard2scout (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hi Rchard2scout, thank you for your new comment and feedback. I hope your morning is going well! Ah yes viewdeleted, silly me to forget about that (I have the opposite problem as you before, it is far too late at night where I live!), I do recall it from someone else's declined proposal of admin sortion, I've struck Option 3 now per WMF legal policy. Re OAuth permissions, I know from using Huggle that when you create a bot token there's a very fine grained list of checkboxed for you to tick, and "block" is in fact one of them, so it is that granular as to avoid all other admin perms, I've expanded Option #2 above to clarify this and more circumstances. I do believe this would be my preferred option, per the reasons I've placed in my expansion, but are really happy with anything as long as we can deal with this LTA. Anyway, enjoy your morning! MolecularPilot 11:29, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    There's no grant allowing block but no other permissions. The minimum additional admin permissions would be block, blockemail, unreviewedpages, and unwatchedpages. Anomie⚔ 12:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Support option 5 as well, and that doesn't even need a BRFA or an RFC. We do then need consensus for the adminbot part of that proposal, so perhaps this discussion can focus on that. --rchard2scout (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Option 1. I believe this is the only option allowed under policy. Admins need to run admin bots. This RFC is a bit complicated. Usually an RFC of this type would just get consensus for the task ("Is there consensus to run a bot that blocks VPNGate IP addresses?"), with implementation details to be worked out later. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Option 5 is fine if the bot doesn't need to do any blocking and is just keeping a list up-to-date. Don't even need this RFC or a BRFA if you stick the page in your userspace (WP:EXEMPTBOT). –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I'd like to suggest an alternative approach: Write a bot or Toolforge tool that generates a data feed of IP addresses, starting with VPN Gate egress IP addresses, perhaps including the first seen timestamp and last seen timestamp for each egress. The blocking and unblocking portion of the process is relatively simple and a number of administrators could write, maintain, and run a bot that does that. (I suspect most administrators that run bots would prefer to write their own code to do that.) Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Well, I started writing this suggestion before option 5 was added. Since it looks like this is basically the same as that option, put me down as being in favor of Option 5. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Courtesy ping for Rchard2scout and Novem Linguae notifying them of the new preferred option 5 above, which I believe makes everything easier for both myself and the admin who wishes to help me (I'll leave a note on AN asking nicely once BRFA passes for MolecularBot). Also, Skynxnex, you expressed support for option 5 below, did you mean to format that as a support !vote in this section (my apologies for the confusing layout of everything here). Thank you very much to everyone for your time in reviewing this proposal and leaving very helpful feedback. MolecularPilot 09:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't feel like I've thought about the different aspects to do a bolded !vote yet. Skynxnex (talk) 15:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    That's so fine, thank you anyway for your feedback! :) MolecularPilot 23:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Hey, it's me, User:MolecularPilot on VPNgate. This VPN is listed as 112.187.104.70 on VPNgate cause that's what my PC talks to. But, this VPN when talking to Misplaced Pages, uses 121.179.23.53 as shown which is completely different and not listed anywhere on VPNgate, showing the need for actually testing the VPNs and figuring out the output IPs are my bot does. Can this IP please be WP:OPP blocked? 121.179.23.53 (talk) 06:22, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • There is a relevant Phabricator ticket: T380917. – DreamRimmer (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't think non-admins can run admin bots. Perhaps you would like to publicly post your source code, then ask an admin to run it? cc Daniel Quinlan. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't think blocking a single VPN provider will have the effect people want it to have. It's easy for a disruptive editor to switch VPNs. This is really a problem that needs to be solved by WMF. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hi Daniel Quinlan, I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the post but this is designed to work with existing WMF proposals that are being worked on. Both T380917 and T354599 block/give higher edit filter scrutiny based on existing lists of "bad" IPs, this is the same as the old ST47ProxyBot (which actually does scanning but doesn't monitor "egress" IPs, it only attempts to connect to the "ingress" and then blocks it if successfully). This is great for a wide variety of proxy services because ingress/egress is the same, but for modern, more advanced services like VPNgate (and perhaps some services that because a problem for us in future) the ingress IP address is often not the same as the one used to edit Misplaced Pages, and so requires this solution (this bot). I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Misplaced Pages, and by blocking it this significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks. This also creates the infrastructure for easily blocking any future VPN services that use different ingress/egress IPs - the bot can be easily expanded to use new lists. MolecularPilot 21:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
  • What is the actual expected volume per day of new IPs to block? It looks like the current list has 98 ingress IPs (if I'm understanding the configuration blocks correctly). I'll also say I have pretty strong concerns about sharing "personal" tokens of any kind between users, particularly admin permission ones with non-admins. Skynxnex (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    The list available through this API frequently rotates. It only provides 98 ingress IPs at a time, as you stated and refetching the list without passing returns the same 98 IPs. After 1 hour (estimated) passes, a new 98 IPs are randomly selected to be provided to all users - but these may include some of the same IPs as before because they are picked by random selection from the whole list of 6057 (not available to the public), this has happened a couple times during my data gathering. Therefore re volume per hour, the maximum number of IPs to be blocked is 98, but it could be less due to already blocked IPs being included in that given hour's sample of 98, I hope this makes sense if there's anything that needs clarifying please don't hesitate to ask. MolecularPilot 21:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    Re "personal" tokens it's actually not a "personal" token to the admin's account, it would be (in theory) a token to an adminbot account with the only things it can be used for being those helpfully specified by Anomie above. However, regardless I see the concerns so I've added a proposal 5 which hopefully is a decent compromise above and ensures that I don't have access to any admin perms/tokens, but that there aren't any bottlenecks and that admins don't need to setup a complex running environment. Thank you for your time in commenting, Skynxnex. MolecularPilot 22:23, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    I see bot tokens as fairly similar to personal tokens since bots are associated with an operator. I think proposal 5 has promise. Skynxnex (talk) 23:08, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    VPN Gate claims they have about 6,000 servers which is fairly close to my own estimate of how many IPs they are using. If we block each IP for six months, we'd end up averaging about 33 blocks per day. There would be a pretty large influx at the start, but I would want to spread that out over at least several weeks to avoid flooding the block log as badly as ST47ProxyBot did. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    It's worth noting that an unknown amount of 'servers' are user computers that people have volunteered cpu time for (this information is somewhere on the website), so, like we see often with IP users, the IP that each server uses can and likely will change with time. This doesn't mean that an effort like this bot won't help, of course, but it's unknown how effective (as a percentage) it would be with just 33 blocks a day. – 2804:F1...33:D1A2 (::/32) (talk) 23:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
    33 blocks per day is a rough estimate, not a limit. Certainly there will be some delay when adding entries to any list generated as proposed above so the block rate will never reach 100%, but the egress IPs don't seem to change that much over time based on what I've seen. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 00:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
    So, I'm posting this anonymously through VPNGate because I don't want people to start suspecting me of things just because I admit to having used a VPN service some others are abusing to make disruptive edits here. Due to its strong base in Japan, I've used VPNGate many times in order to shop at Japanese web stores that block purchases from outside Japan (they typically don't want to offer international support and see this as the easiest solution for avoiding that), and I know a number of other people who've used it for similar reasons (also for Korea, which often has even more hosts available than Japan).
    In any case, while I've personally never enabled this on my PC, I can confirm what IP 2804: said: there's definitely a swarm of short-term volunteer IPs associated with this service who aren't part of VPNGate proper. The overlap between such people and good faith Misplaced Pages editors may not be large, but it's unlikely to be zero. Unless you have a good mechanism to avoid excessively punishing such users for popping up on your list for the short period of time they themselves use the VPN, maybe it's better to wait for and official WMF solution, which (based on the phabs) seems to intend to take "IP reputation" into account and would thus likely exclude such ephemerals, or at least give them very short term blocks compared to the main servers. Because getting blocked here for several months for having been part of VPNGate for a few hours hardly seems fair.
    Actually, now that I think about it: if you're going to connect to VPNGate servers for the express purpose of determining and blocking their exit IPs, you'd probably be in violation of their TOS. While you might consider this an "ends justifying the means" situation, are you sure you want to associate the WMF with such unauthorized usage? There's a difference between port scanning or getting an IP list via an API and actually traversing the VPN in order to investigate it. This absolutely is not a legal threat by me, but if VPNGate were to learn of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they took action. Aren't there enough services out there that provide VPN IP lists without having to roll your own scanner? It would seem a safer bet for the WMF to use something like that. 125.161.156.63 (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Oh, you didn't have to anonymise yourself, we don't cast WP:ASPERSIONS here and now you won't get a reply notification but that's okay! :) I checked the terms of service of their website before making their bot and it just says not to do anything IRL illegal otherwise they'll give your logged data to authorities if subpoenaed, but I will reach out to the VPNgate operators in Japanese (good practice opportunity, huh) when I have time just to double-confirm they're okay with everything. But btw, they encourage checking that your IP has changed to demonstrate it has worked in their how-to-guides, and this isn't 'tranaversing" as we're not collecting data on every single node but only the public IP of the exit node. Re short-term volunteers, that's a great point, and I'll update the JSON schema of its published data to include a "number of sightings" number, so that the blocking adminbot would escalate blocks as this increases so maybe it starts really short term like 2.5 days/60 hours (6000 active volunteers on average, divided by 100 checked every hour, minimum time to ensure the IP has truly stopped) if it's just 1 sighting but ramps up exponentially if it's seen again as an egress IP untill we're talking like 6months - 2 years blocks. Re WMF tickets, the distributed fact of VPNgate that anyone can start hosting means that most VPNgate IP addresses won't have a bad "reputation" (I checked a whole bunch on a variety of reputation lists and the egresses always had "good"" reputations) so reputation checking won't help (but they need short term blocks), also as you can't publically see the egress with VPNgate cause it's different to ingress (unlike most networks). So WMF solutions are actually quite innovative and smart for most VPN/proxy networks, it's just that VPNgate is a bit different needing a unique solution, this bot. MolecularPilot 04:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I guess I'm just too careful or chicken even if most people would refrain from casting aspersions.
    I don't quite understand why you say you're not traversing. You're not just touching the network from one side, you're passing through it and coming out on the other side, that's traversing. However if they don't mind it, then I guess you're in luck. Ecxept maybe if those Japanese laws they mention a mllion times in their documents have a problem with something like this.
    I don't know what the WMF is basing its reputation measurements on. My meaning was that sites like browserleaks.com almost always seem to know about the VPN status of the exit nodes I've used over time. I don't know where they're getting this information from exactly, but that's what I meant by reputation, not whether they're good or bad but what they're known to engage in, like being a VPN node. And that database is probabably built either through collaboration or by specialized services, which the WNF can use as well. Like email providers use common antispam databases instead of each rolling their own.
    In any case, good luck with your bot, because I'm afraid these persistent abusers you want to keep out by this probably won't be averse to paying for commercial VPNs if they have to, and many of those only cost a handful of bucks a month. Commercial companies will almost certainly have a TOS that would prohibit your bot, so to counter them the WMF would in the end still have to resort to a specialist or collaborative VPN IP list of some kind. You can probably cut down on casual troublemakers by tracking VPNGate but I don't think it'll help all that much much against anyone highly motivated. They can even continue using VPNGate, it'll just be less convenient because they have to find brand new nodes before you catch those.
    92.253.31.37 (talk) 17:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not sure what you mean by "Japanese Laws" they keep mentioning they don't seem to mention any, when I told you that the ToS said don't do anything irl illegal I was referring to this ToS page which doesn't mention any "Japanese Laws" but just says don't do anything like CSAM like your government can subpoena us for, because we'll comply (and directions for LEOs to request this). Re reputation yes, the major VPNgate nodes that have done it for a while do have bad reputations, particularly 219.100.37.0/24 which is the example servers run by the university themselves - but as you said, because anyone can start a VPNgate server and then there's always brand new nodes that won't have bad reputations and can be abused. But - as I've stated in a different discussion above, the list of VPN servers to connect to only updates with new servers hourly, so while reputation services won't catch the new exit nodes (because they won't be used poorly enough to trigger flagging for a white), the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs. Re commercial services generally, unlike VPNgate, they use datacenters and static IPs that are assigned to "Hotspot Shield, Inc." (as an example) so it's easy to CIDR range block them and also the reputation of those deteriorates over time as they do bad things - the companies don't randomly get new IPs in random locations around the world, like VPNgate. In fact commercial reputation services excel at identifying commercial services (from my testing), but VPNgate is community distributed, like Misplaced Pages, and needs a unique approach. And yes, as I said to Daniel, I'll admit that blocking VPNgate won't fully stop this LTA or all proxy vandals but VPNgate is quite a large and widely used network (claiming a total of 18,810,237,498 lifetime connections) that is currently almost fully permitted to edit Misplaced Pages (the bot currently has 146 IPs in its list and as shown by the stats section of the toolforge frontend, ~60% are currently unblocked (and this is an underestimate because the list is mainly the "obvious" ones that are always provided first in the 98 hourly sample, like 219.100.37.0/24. This is because the bot has only had 1 full run of all IPs in a given hour's list, and many failed partial runs of just the first couple. I think blocking VPNgate significantly reduces the surface area for proxy attacks - only looking at only 10 of the blocked IPs I see link spam, edit warring, block evasion, vandalism and our favourite WP:LTA. MolecularPilot 08:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    They mention Japanese laws repeatedly in the texts shown when you click the licence and notice buttons under Help > About of the SoftEther VPN Client Manager. It's a canned statement saying they only comply with Japanese laws because they can't possibly follow every law worldwide.
    the bot constantly waits for updates to the list and then immediately tests it to determine the new egress IPs Are you going to run multiple instances of the bot in parallel, because the 98 IP list you get per hour seems far from sufficient for make claims about a strong level of protection if there are ~6000 egresses, many of which churn. With your current setup, an abuser can get their own list refresh, which would be different from what the bot gets, run it past your very helpful :) IP check tool and then make edits from any IP not covered. Which may not be many, but they only need one out of their 98, so it's likely they'll get something as long as the volunteer swarm keeps changing.
    Getting a bit more facetious, VPNGate could conversely determine the IP of your bot and block it as a censorship agent. :) I really think it contradicts the spirit of their operation even if they haven't prohibited it explicitly, since you don't happen to be a state agent. This is just my conjecture, but I'm guessing that if you looked at your IP list edits without focusing solely on the abuse, you'd also see constructive edits coming from them, quite possibly from people using VPNGate to bypass state firewalls. I am well aware of Misplaced Pages open proxy policy, but it can make editing somewhat difficult for such people.
    These remain my two sticking points: while useful, the bot won't be quite as effective as you represent; and you're arguably abusing their service to operate yours.
    Once this bot starts issuing blocks, you should probably amend Help:I have been blocked to include verbiage about having used a VPN in the recent past, because this situation isn't really covered by the "you are using a VPN" or collateral damage statements. 211.220.201.217 (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    VPNgate does not have as firm of a ground as you claim. Yes, companies have terms of use and those terms of use often have clauses of disputes being filed in their local country. However, as multiple attourneys have pointed out, this local dispute solving when dealing with an customer from abroad does not really work. In reality, VPNgate is forced to deal with international laws, because otherwise they will just lose their case. (one of the legal opinions supporting this: https://svamc.org/cross-border-business-disputes-company-use-international-arbitration/ )
    As far as blocks go, yes, they could block one user, but let me remind you that there are 120,000 active wikipedia users. The script could just be passed on between users until all of their IP ranges are blocked. They would lose that war, every time. Snævar (talk) 20:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
    I don't recall claiming anything about firm ground. I have a problem with the WMF or parties associated with it engaging in somewhat questionable practices, even if it is for a good cause. I'm OK with port scanning or getting data from an API, because that's external probing, but actually passing through someone's premises with the intent of later restricting their users is something I find objectionable, and it is my conjecture that VPNGate would think likewise. If VPNGate blocked one user's bot, that would simply be an indication that they object to such activities, and having a million other users on the ready to take over would change nothing about that, and I'm fairly certain the WMF does not subscribe to this sort of hackerish way of thinking anyway. VPNGate aren't outlaws against whom anything goes, they operate a prefectly legitimate service, albeit one that some people abuse. It's also possible that it's just me, and VPNGate themselves have no objection to any of this. The OP was going to ask them, so I presume they'll inform everyone about the response sometime soon. 220.81.178.129 (talk) 11:44, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, this is definitely not something that should be adversarial or "us against them" and if they express concerns about this behaviour, we should totally not try and evade it - after all VPNgate does share our mission of spreading free knowledge to the world (and are very useful to spreading Misplaced Pages and other websites around the globe, it's just some bad actors taking advantage of the kind service of both the university and the volunteers creating a problem). We just need to find a way to work together to ensure that we both can continue to do our things. Being the holiday season, it's pretty busy for me and I'm sure the same is true for the operators so I will reach out in the new year re their thoughts on this. MolecularPilot 04:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    Hi! The abuser can't get their own list refresh seperate from what the bot sees, I guess I wasn't clear before but what I meant was that everyone gets the same 98 IPs every hour, and then the next hour another 98 are randomly selected to be shown to everyone.
    Re censroship/state agencies this doesn't help state agents or censorship at all, because they want to block the input/ingress IP addresses that citizens would use to connect to the VPN network, and knowing the egress that the VPN network uses to connect to servers doesn't help them at all. I have clarified this in the README.md now so anyone who sees the project will know that it can't be used for censorship.
    Re users bypassing state firewalls, they can still read and if they want to edit we have WP:ACC for that (abusers could go through acc I guess, but then they can't block evade once their account gets indef'ed - and VPNgate has been used a lot by link spammers, people who want to edit war (especially someone who got really upset about castes, I've seen a lot of edit warring from detected IPs about that) to evade the blocks on their main account).
    Btw, thank you for calling my tool helpful, I'm not the best at UI design but I tried to put some effort in and make it looks nice and have useful functions. Thank you to you as well for your time in providing soooo much helpful feedback to make the bot better. :) MolecularPilot 03:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Also thanks for reminding me to provide guidance to users on this, I think the current WP:OPP block message doesn't really fit with the VPNgate mode of temporary volunteers (who the user effected might not even know about but could get a dynamic assignment with an IP blocked for a few days). I'll make a custom block template! :) MolecularPilot 03:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Tada I guess... {{Blocked VPNgate}} Anyone reading this please feel comfortable to be WP:BOLD and make it better if you'd like, it's still a very early draft. :) MolecularPilot 10:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    While tone of you thanks seems to include some aspersions :), you're welcome if what I've said has helped you. If the list is the same for everyone, you can indeed be a lot more effective. My point about censorship was less about you helping state censors and more about you using the loophole that VPNGate haven't said anything about private actors, and giving the impression that abuse is the only thing it is being used for. 220.81.178.129 (talk) 11:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
    Oh no I'm really sad now, please don't take my tone when I thanked you in the wrong way (it can be both hard to express and pick up on the internet)! Maybe saying "sooooo" was a bit over the top, but you've genuinely gone back and forth with me a lot of times and always written detailed, logical suggestions or concerns to help, so genuinely, no sarcasm, thank you!!! :) MolecularPilot 04:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    All right then, and sorry about my tendency to lean a bit on the paranoid side. 159.146.72.149 (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
    That's so fine! :) MolecularPilot 05:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    How feasible would it be to make the list of IPs private/admin-only? I mean, they're still going to get blocked, and that's public, but I feel like making a public list, even if one may or may not already exist, might be an unnecessary step?
    If I ran a VPN service I'd be a lot less upset about Misplaced Pages defending itself than Misplaced Pages creating a public up-to-date list of VPN IPs that everyone can use, without effort, to mass block most of my VPN. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not really sure, I don't think there's a way to restrict viewing a page on EnWiki (I could whip up a MediaWiki extension enabling "read protection" of a page, but I doubt the WMF would install it), but we do have things like checkuserwiki, arbcomwiki etc. which have limited viewership so prep haps the bot could operate on a new antiabusewiki (but this would require even more work from WMF than installing the extension) and then a stewardbot could issue global blocks from there? I would also have to take down molecularbot2.toolforge.org and the GitHub repo (that anyone could just download code and run it to get their own list). But even if we don't have a list, it's trivial to query the MediaWiki API for block status (that's what the toolforge tool does in addition to seeing if the IP is listed at User:MolecularBot/IPData.json when you lookup an IP or generate stats), there's very high ratelimits for this, and you just need to check if the block reason is {{Blocked VPNgate}} or whatever message the adminbot/stewardbot leaves. MolecularPilot 04:54, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

contentious topics/aware plus "topic code"

i want to add the contentious topics/aware template to the top of my talkpage, but the list of topic codes says to substitute the template so i did but the israel/palestine topic code did not display. how do i include the topic code? Daddyelectrolux (talk) 19:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@Daddyelectrolux You don't need to subst that template, you would just do {{Contentious topics/aware|a-i}}. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:51, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
the topic codes page states that the template should be substituted. perhaps that should be removed, to avoid new people from make my same mistake? thank you User:Ahecht. :) Daddyelectrolux (talk) 00:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
@Daddyelectrolux: You wanted to use Template:Contentious topics/aware which doesn't say to use subst. Template:Contentious topics/table is used to document other templates and it varies whether they require subst. I have added this to the documentation. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
To be fair, up until yesterday Template:Contentious topics/aware/doc just linked to Template:Contentious topics/table. I updated it so that it properly transcludes the table, which hides the subst: syntax. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:27, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Site is under maintenance

I was unable to complete an edit a few minutes ago. I got an error message saying the site was under maintenance. Clicking on "back" did get me the edit I was trying to make and a few seconds later I was successful.

I posted just for documentation but I am having difficulty with a site that is very slow and I came here to do an edit to have something to do while waiting for pages on that slow site to come up. The slow site slows everything else down.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Blacklisted website not on any blacklist

I wanted to save an edit containing a link to tradingview.com but it keeps showing a message:

"Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Misplaced Pages's blacklist or Wikimedia's global blacklist. The following link has triggered a protection filter: tradingview.com "

So I tried to figure out whether I shouldn't use that website as a source and on what blacklist that website is supposed to be but I couldn't find anything. Is that a bug? Killarnee (talk) 14:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's on the global blacklist at meta:Spam blacklist. Anomie⚔ 14:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah. It was added in October 2017. See the request and link report. – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) Please do not ping on reply. 14:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Hm now I found it too, somehow the find tool in Safari wasn't able to find it. Thanks you both. Looks like I have to search for another source. Killarnee (talk) 14:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Special:Shortpages

When I try to view this special page I just get the following error:

2024-12-21 18:40:02: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\RequestTimeout\RequestTimeoutException"

Is anyone else getting this error when viewing that page? Thanks. 2A0E:1D47:9085:D200:E9BC:B9ED:405A:596B (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It works now. Problems come and go. I had to restart my phone half an hour ago to get something to work. Extra: That was a problem with an app on my phone (nothing to do with Misplaced Pages). Johnuniq (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I see a similar error when I try to check logs for Special:Log/ProcseeBot. 2024-12-22 10:33:05: Fatal exception of type 'Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryTimeoutError'. – DreamRimmer (talk) 10:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Likely also worth noting that, above the error, it says To avoid creating high database load, this query was aborted because the duration exceeded the limit. Though I suppose that's the definition of a timeout... – Daℤyzzos (✉️ • 📤) Please do not ping on reply. 15:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Tracked at phab:T325062. – DreamRimmer (talk) 18:00, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Colors of images in {{Infobox government agency}} are inverted in the dark mode

When the {{Infobox government agency}} template is included into some page, SVG images inside it have their colors inverted if the dark mode is on. See, for example, the article United States Department of State, specifically the seal: it should have dark blue outter ring, white inner circle with a brown eagle, but instead you can see the seal with a bluish-white outter ring, black inner circle with an orange eagle. Looked at several other infobox templates, none of them have a simmilar issue. Also, only vector images are affected by this, raster images are not. I wanted to try to debug it, but the template is fully protected. Tohaomg (talk) 17:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Tohaomg it's most likely this edit by @Jonesey95: that has introduced the behaviour. Probably best discussed at Template talk:Infobox government agency. Nthep (talk) 18:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
See the previous discussion. A more comprehensive fix is welcome. The sandbox is open for anyone to edit. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
This is not an acceptable solution, please revert. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 20:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
The reason skin-invert worked for signatures was that white writing paper is common and even though colors in pens is varied, the most commonly used ones are dark.
Logos are not created on the basis of a palette of colors, unlike signatures. Logos are created to be visible and understandable from far away and close up. As such, they should not be inverted at large.
I consider the edit request in the template to be unactionable, as it did not ask for any particular solution, not even a hint at one. Snævar (talk) 23:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure why people are continuing to reply here. This discussion will be lost in the archives of VPT; please post at the template talk page with comments, suggestions, proposed fixes, or requests. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: I am not buying that argument for one second, also you are refusing to talk about the issue itself. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. Most issues are solved during discussion not after, it being "lost in the archive" is a non starter as an argument. Clearly neither myself or Sjoerddebruin are going to move this discussion to the template talk page. If you continue attempting to refrain from discussing about the issue itself, consider this your first warning. I would also like to voice my disappointment of how you are handling this, I do expect better than this. Snævar (talk) 09:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Responding like this and bypassing the instructions that are clearly indicated at the top of the template page is really something, especially with an unsure edit summary. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 09:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I wasn't discussing the issue here because of WP:MULTI. See the template's talk page for further discussion. I have reverted the change and continue to welcome a better way to fix the problem that was identified and that is still present. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:55, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Historical use of File:Wiki.png as the top-left logo

I wonder if anybody remembers some technical details of the use of File:Wiki.png for the logo in the top-left corner during the 2000s (not limited to enwiki). This discussion led me to asking this. I found some clues on Commons – quoting myself from the aforementioned discussion:

The log for File:Wiki.png shows two interesting entries:

commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Archive/2005/09#Image:Wiki.png is also interesting. :

Image:Wiki.png should be moved to a different name (already re-created at Image:Wiki-commons.png) as it currently is aliasing that name on every wiki project and therefore not allowing local logos on those projects. Tim has already changed the logo location, so it shouldn't break the commons logo, but we should wait about a week before moving it to give time for the caches to update. The logo is now hardcoded so there is no need to protect this specific image.

Does anybody remember any further details?

Thanks, Janhrach (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't really remember, but we have historical records of the configuration going back to 2012. The current system, where logos of each wiki are stored in the configuration, was introduced in 2015 in change 209616 and other commits around that time. Wikis had the option to use the locally uploaded Wiki.png as a logo until 2017, when it was removed in change 359037. Alas I don't really know the historical context around these changes, I just found them in the history. Matma Rex talk 14:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. Janhrach (talk) 14:17, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Log out

I keep logging out every time I close the browser on my phone. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 22:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have some sort of ad blocker or privacy thing enabled that isn't allowing you to save cookies perhaps ? —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:15, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
@TheDJ: I have some sort of ad blocker enabled. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Cat-a-lot gadget

Hi. To follow up a query a user had on my talk page, I wanted to see if there was any way that edits using Cat-a-lot could be marked as minor by default? At present there is now way I am aware of to mark these edits as minor. Alternatively, would there be another way these edits could be filtered out of watchlists? We have a tick box to hide "page categorization", so could they maybe be included in that for example? Thanks. Jevansen (talk) 23:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#Preferences says there's a preference for that, it also shows this image: commons:File:2013-03-31-Gadget-Cat-A-Lot-prefscreen.png... is that just outdated info? does the interface still look anything like that?
Edit: erm, right, commons:Help:Gadget-Cat-a-lot#As your user gadget also shows how to set preferences with javascript, which I think is what you might have to do if there is no option (due to it not being a gadget on Misplaced Pages? You installed it as an user script, at least.) – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Aha! The userscript you imported the gadget from (User:קיפודנחש/cat-a-lot.js, you import them here), manually sets the preference, including a minor: false!
I'm pretty sure you can overwrite that by just adding a line setting the preference after you import the script, but you could aso just copy their script into your common.js (replacing the import) and change that part to minor: true, that would also do what you want. – 2804:F1...57:88CF (::/32) (talk) 02:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for this. I've updated User:Jevansen/common.js, but this doesn't seem to have changes things. Perhaps I've not done it right? Jevansen (talk) 21:02, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Then I'm really not sure hm, I had tried looking at how other people did it, like User:Roland_zh/common.js (which seemed to work: diff), but I'm not really seeing much different? I mean it's set after the import, I guess. Well that and they are importing the gadget two different times, in two different ways...
I did find User:Liz/cat-a-lot.js, but I cannot confirm that it works, since Liz seemingly never used it.
If those don't work then I don't know, I'm sorry. Can't test it without an account anyways - maybe someone else will know. – 2804:F1...26:F77C (::/32) (talk) 21:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Huh... the script you used was intentionally set to false this year: User talk:קיפודנחש/cat-a-lot.js#Minor: false
Because Help:Minor edit says adding and removing categories is not a minor edit... – 2804:F1...26:F77C (::/32) (talk) 21:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Good find. I have to admit this isn't a guideline I could recall. Think it's generally an accepted practise to mark as minor any automated cat additions done on mass, as long as they're not in contentious topic areas or especially BLP sensitive etc. It was an admin that made this request to me after all. At any rate, you've definitely solved the cause of the issue here. Appreciate your help. Jevansen (talk) 01:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Is it unproblematic to use `lang=` spans in section headers?

Of course, I know it's wrong to use templates like {{lang}} in section headers, but I know anchors work correctly in the transcluded HTML, so is there any reason a header like === <span lang="la">Tu quoque</span> === would break something? Remsense ‥ 论 16:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Considering how {{subst:anchor}} works in section headings, this should be fine. I tested it in the sandbox and nothing went immediately wrong. jlwoodwa (talk) 05:22, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
When considering whether markup is OK in headings, there are several things to check - these include:
  • Whether the heading is actually broken, such as the appearance of the terminal equals signs in the rendered page
  • Whether inward links work from normal Wikitext
  • Whether inward links work from special pages (e.g. the little arrows in a watchlist)
There may be others. But generally, a <span>...</span> tag pair is fine. --Redrose64 🦌 (talk) 11:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Question from Raph Williams65

Hello everyone, i created my own template — {{Golden Badge Award}}, but it does have documentation, could someone explain to me how i could add documentation in the template. &‐Raph Williams65 (talk) 12:31, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

@Raph Williams65: I guess you meant it does not have documentation. After posting here you created Template:Golden Badge Award/doc which is shown at Template:Golden Badge Award. Is there still something you want help with? PrimeHunter (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: after i asked the question, i went to Template:Documentation subpage and found my answer. —Raph Williams65 (talk) 04:01, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

‐

Delivering pings on the watchlist page

Apologies if this is old hat. Like many people, I sit on my watchlist page, clicking the "View new changes" link every so often. This would keep me up to date with stuff that I wish to be informed of, except that pings are not delivered. (By "delivered" I mean that the ping icon appears at the top of the page.) I only see that I have been pinged if I go to some other page. Would it be easy to deliver pings on the watchlist page too? For example, clicking the "View new changes" link could be added to the actions that cause ping delivery. Zero 02:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Category: