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== Character list == == Plot summary for lead ==
I have listed the characters here, but the voice types in the score I got the characteras from seem a bit odd. For example I doubt that the third lady is actually a soprano (due to the low nature of the role). So, I consolted another score (also German) http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/vaa0618/large/index.html and found the same labels. Perhaps this is a German system that I am not farmiliar with. Either way, I think that they SHOULD be labled the way they are cast in America. Anyone with a good idea of what that would be is welcome to do that.


I replaced
Also, perhaps the characters should be listed in English with the German in ( ) insted of the way i have done it, as this is a English encyclopedia.


''The allegorical plot was influenced by Schikaneder and ] and concerns the initiation of Prince Tamino. Enlisted by the Queen of the Night to rescue her daughter Pamina from the high priest Sarastro, Tamino comes to admire the high ideals of Sarastro. He and Pamina both join Sarastro's community, while the Queen and her allies are vanquished.
:During Mozart's time, the notion of a mezzo-soprano or contralto had not yet developed. All female singers were called sopranos. I will update to typical casting. ] 21:29, 2005 August 16 (UTC)


with an older version:
::Thanks a bunch ]


''In the opera the Queen of the Night persuades Prince Tamino to rescue her daughter Pamina from captivity under the high priest Sarastro; instead, he learns the high ideals of Sarastro's community and seeks to join it. Separately, then together, Tamino and Pamina undergo severe trials of initiation, which end in triumph, with the Queen and her cohorts vanquished. The earthy Papageno, who accompanies Tamino on his quest, fails the trials completely but is rewarded anyway with the hand of his ideal female companion Papagena.
== Other sites ==


Reasons:
Does anyone konw of any other sites with analysis of the Magic Flute (Die Zauberflote)
* The view that the plot is allegorical (i.e. about Maria Theresia) is controversial, and perhaps is even acquiring the status of a crackpot theory; see ] for discussion.

* The Freemasonry claim is certainly common but it is now called into question by thoughtful people; see again ]. While it may still have adherents, in general we don't put controversial speculation into the lead as if it were fact.
== Title ==
* The old plot summary I restored is hardly any longer but has some really essential things: the trials the characters undergo, and the character Papageno (who I suspect has more stage time than anyone else).

] (]) 00:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
] says, "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." In my experience, English speakers are more likely to speak of "The Magic Flute" than "Die Zauberflöte". Shouldn't the page be at the common English title? (See also ].)

Unless anyone objects in the next day or so, I think I'll move the page to ]. —] (] • ]) 04:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

:Done. I've also taken care of the redirects in the main namespace. —] (] • ]) 06:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

:You have posted your question on the 13. November 2005, and waited only for 1 day and then moved the page. While it is good that you asked first, I think more time is in order to discuss this serious topic first. Or at least a moving tab with discussion should have been posted. ] 15:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

::I apologize if my move was premature. I just thought I was ''']''' and acting in accordance with the naming conventions. Is there a WikiProject that covers this sort of topic, to which we might appeal to find the best solution? ] (] • ]) 01:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

:I don't expect to have all of you with me on this one, but I for one would rather see a change of the naming conventions. That would, as I see it, be completely in line with how I recognize Misplaced Pages as always being very "correct". By that I mean presenting well thought-through formulations of matters rather than just resigning to lazy traditions. For example, I don't expect Misplaced Pages to use "]" when it really intends to say "]". ] 20:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

== Another audio example ==

I'm sad to say that the current audio example (Der Hölle Rache) does not reach very high standards. Having one would still be nice, though. Are there perhaps another one we can use? ] 21:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
==Requested move==
] as per policy. This would be especially timely, since the ] broadcast it last week. No, ''Cosí Fan Tutte'' should ''not'' be moved. :} ], ]'s film, should be moved to TMF(fim) or TMF(Bergman).



===Voting===
:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''
*'''Support''' Nominator vote. ] 06:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Die Zauberflote is the real name of the opera. Would we also change the names of La Traviata or La Boheme? Should then Luciano Pavorotti be Luke? Consider the opera itself is German, then the title should remain in German. ] 16:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' — the rule is fairly simple: how is the work most widely known to speakers of English? ''La Boheme'' is known as ''La Boheme'', not "The Bohemian"; this opera, although occasionally performed in the Anglophone world as ''Die Zauberflöte'', is most widely known as ''The Magic Flute''. That's how the article should be named. See both ] and ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

* '''Support''' -- In the English-speaking world, this opera seems to be known as ''The Magic Flute''. ] 17:13, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

*Reluctant '''Support''' -- I consider this an exception because among English speaking people, the opera has better name recognition as ''The Magic Flute'' than ''Die Zauberflöte''. There are only a handful of operas like this: ''Il Barbiere di Siviglia'', perhaps. &ndash;] (]) 20:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' -- Some, believing they advocate consistency, say "all titles should be in the works' original language", but the only way to be consistent is to reflect most-common usage, which is clearly, in this ''one'' case "The Magic Flute." ] 21:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' --] (],]) 22:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' this would clash with the current ]. ] 01:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
*:Just to clarify, my support (and I assume other peoples' support) is to also move ] to ] as suggested in the proposal --] (],]) 12:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' ] 12:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' following policy and using the much more widely recognized English name. ] 21:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - finally persuaded that there are perhaps a dozen popular operas where the English name is significantly more common and we don't have to worry too much about the borderline cases. -- ] 09:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''' --] 17:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments''
Branagh is also doing a film, so disambiguate them now is probably a good idea. ] 06:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. In the world of opera an opus is generally called by its original name, because it is almost always the language it is performed in. Performances in English translations (I don't know why) have become uncommon. So the Metropolitan Opera shows "Die Zauberflöte", "Il Barbiere di Siviglia", "Die Entführung aus dem Serail", "La Forza del Destino" etc.
If we chose, however, to change it to its English name, this rule should apply to all other foreign operas listed in Misplaced Pages as well. Currently you'll find ], ], ], ], ], ], ] and so on. Those would have to be renamed, too. ] 08:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
::I disagree that this is usage. English usage for ''this'' opera appears to be strongly ''The Magic Flute'' (the Met, which I checked, is an exception; and their broadcast used both). Of the above six operas (and ]) usage is strongly against translation, except on ''The Turk in Italy'' and ''The Faithful Shepherd'' (probably because the original sounds so canine in English). And it's not clear enough to move those. ] 20:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
:I'm conflicted on this one. In general I strongly support ] and this is an opera which is frequently known by its English translation &mdash; sufficiently so that I could support the move. However with operas in general, most are known by the title of their original libretto and it is only the most popular ones that become known by their English translation. The problem is what to do on the borderline cases such as '']'' which is occaisionally performed as ''The Bat'' but probably not enough to warrant moving the article to the English title. As such it might be safest to agree to an exception to ] for operas.
:Counter examples might be famous foreign language books ('']'' is at its English title) and famous foreign language films ('']'' is at its English title). Ultimately, 'What links here' should be your guide and it is clear from that several people are actually trying to link to the opera. Whatever happens, the Bergman film should be moved to ] (or ] since it looks like another film by ] is due this year) and ] should become/redirect-to the opera. -- ] 12:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
::I do recognize the appeal of having a standard of "accuracy" to avoid tedious case-by-case arguments, but I feel that this particular case is fairly strong. In addition to the "What links here" test Solipsist mentions, an English-language ] for "The Magic Flute" gives ; an English-language search for "Die Zauberflote" gives only . (I deliberately omitted the umlaut, since this includes both entries with and without it in the search; if one searches for "Die Zauberflöte", there are only 194,000 results.) Most other operas are best known in the Anglophone world in their original titles, so there would be no need to move ''La Traviata'' or ''Der Rosenkavalier''.

::However, this opera is referred to as "The Magic Flute" in sources as widespread as the letters of ] and an episode of '']'' (which, by a staggering coincidence, I happened to watch just last night). Misplaced Pages's policy favors common usage over accuracy ''in article naming'' — this does not mean that the article should be inaccurate, but that we should work to increase the probability that a casual user searching for a subject will find the article he or she is looking for without having to go through a redirect or disambiguation. I think the opera should be at ], with a disambiguation page (] pointing readers to the Bergman film at ] and the Branagh film at ]. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I regret that a straw man may be seen in this discussion. I said I didn't want to move ''Cosí Fan Tutte''. I don't want to move ''La Traviata'' or ''La Bohême'' either. ] 20:20, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not referring to me with your remark about "the straw man", Septentrionalis. If you feel that way, I am very sorry, but I was just trying to make a point with ''La Traviata'' by applying the same standard. And if the Met does, I thought I was in good company. But if the others agree with you, that’s perfectly fine with me. You called for a discussion, I made my point. ] 15:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
:Yes, but your point appears to be based on an inaccurate understanding of what's being proposed. Just to clarify, the standard being suggested is ''not'' "put all opera articles under English names", but "put operas which are most widely known in the Anglophone world under English names under English names". "La Traviata" is irrelevant. —] <small>(] • ])</small> 17:33, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:02, 9 November 2024

The contents of the Arctic Magic Flute page were merged into The Magic Flute on 16 December 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
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Plot summary for lead

I replaced

The allegorical plot was influenced by Schikaneder and Mozart's interest in Freemasonry and concerns the initiation of Prince Tamino. Enlisted by the Queen of the Night to rescue her daughter Pamina from the high priest Sarastro, Tamino comes to admire the high ideals of Sarastro. He and Pamina both join Sarastro's community, while the Queen and her allies are vanquished.

with an older version:

In the opera the Queen of the Night persuades Prince Tamino to rescue her daughter Pamina from captivity under the high priest Sarastro; instead, he learns the high ideals of Sarastro's community and seeks to join it. Separately, then together, Tamino and Pamina undergo severe trials of initiation, which end in triumph, with the Queen and her cohorts vanquished. The earthy Papageno, who accompanies Tamino on his quest, fails the trials completely but is rewarded anyway with the hand of his ideal female companion Papagena.

Reasons:

  • The view that the plot is allegorical (i.e. about Maria Theresia) is controversial, and perhaps is even acquiring the status of a crackpot theory; see Libretto of the Magic Flute for discussion.
  • The Freemasonry claim is certainly common but it is now called into question by thoughtful people; see again Libretto of the Magic Flute. While it may still have adherents, in general we don't put controversial speculation into the lead as if it were fact.
  • The old plot summary I restored is hardly any longer but has some really essential things: the trials the characters undergo, and the character Papageno (who I suspect has more stage time than anyone else).

Opus33 (talk) 00:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

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