Revision as of 23:36, 13 August 2010 editJeffro77 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers31,570 edits →Splitting the article← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:54, 21 September 2024 edit undoJeffro77 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers31,570 editsm →Accusation of bias | ||
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== Very important thing to mention! == | |||
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Consubstantiality is usually the superficial merger of the trinity, but Jehovah Witnesses don't accept the trinity. Ok with that. But consubstantiality - Greek: to homoousion means also that the person-god Jehovah the father alone is internally non divisible - doesn't have internal constituents. | |||
Some people say he has, some say no. Is the second definition (not about the trinity) of the ομοούσιον accepted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses? Add data about the innate consubstantiality of the person-god Jehovah as interpreted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
== Faithful and discreet slave == | |||
I find no reason that the topic about the ] should have its own article, since the information in that article is rather limited and it is about one single teaching that really could be discussed together with all the other docrines in the bigger article. What the faithful slave is and how it is important for the doctrine can fully be explained in that article. I suggest the merging of those articles. | |||
] (]) 13:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
:JWs have no position themselves on "consubstantiality", which is a subset of trinitarian belief, other than that they don't believe in it. It is not necessary for this article to elaborate on JW views of Catholic views.--] (]) 08:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC) | |||
*'''Strong oppose'''. The article has much more detail on the doctrine and its development than can be accommodated in the Beliefs and practices article. ] (]) 21:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
:I take notice of your comment, but there was in fact more than one article before that discussed various doctrines that now has been merged. Since this article is rather short and its information could be dealt with that way, why shoudn't we merge? At least, that is my personal view. ] (]) 17:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
== Memorial partakers == | |||
::] discusses the rationale for merging an article and lists four reasons why an article should be merged within another. None of those apply to ]. This subject rates just one sentence within ]. If you added the content of the FDS article, including the current WT teaching, its origin and criticism, it would instantly qualify as an article to be ]. ] (]) 21:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
There used to be statistics in the annual yearbook about those who chose to partake in the Memorial. This might be worth mentioning, since only the annointed can partake. The statistics stopped being published a few years ago. ] (]) 20:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
:No, the memorial partakers figures are still published annually on the official website as part of annual "Grand Totals". I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to elaborate on specific details of how many partakers there may be, as this article is a more general article about their beliefs.--] (]) 05:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC) | |||
* '''Strong Oppose'''. — ] (]) 15:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
::It would be interesting because according to Watchtower teaching, partakers have to be born again, and being born again ended in the late 1930s. In other words, no one has been born again since then. This is part of their end times teaching, so it would be interesting to see if the numbers are in fact going down. --] (]) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
What about adapting the article to merge ] with ], which could also do with expansion with any other mainstream interpretations that may exist.--] (]) 03:45, 31 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::That view was changed in 2007, and it is not current JW belief that only people born prior to the 1930s can be 'anointed'. Aside from that, the number claiming to be 'anointed' has indeed increased every year since 2005, but that doesn't bear directly on this article, particularly since the Watch Tower Society itself says that some 'partakers' may not 'really' be 'anointed'.--] (]) 01:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::Well nothing has been established as for the information above.All of us who know the Religion ,know the reasons why sometimes information change.i hope many of us here are just ignorant If for reasons of not knowing some information.It would be sad and selfish if someone is twisting information knowingly. | |||
::::I can see Jehovah witness dont establish all believes and it's for a reason,to those of you who don't know!That reason is ,they fully believe in the bible but they don't trust themselves(truly humble(bible teaching into consideration)and they know their own judgement can be false. That means if something is established by them they have looked the information over and over again.Then they publish it and show it to the public.Intresting of all things ,we can backtrack all their believes and doings.Understanding is key | |||
::::.I'm not a Jehovah witness.I have a non biased opinion just like this page. ] (]) 15:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::::You don't seem to be suggesting anything relevant to article content. This Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not providing general opinions or speculation about JWs. See also ].--] (]) 07:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
::The connection is obvious, but I don't see it as an easy fit. The parable article contains information of general interest on a Bible subject; the "faithful and discreet slave class" is a teaching unique to Jehovah's Witnesses that effectively transforms <s>a parable</s> one figure of a parable into an organizational statum. Because the FDS article has significantly more information, it's also likely to swamp the Bible article. The articles can certainly cross-link, but I don't like the idea of a merge. ] (]) 06:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree that in its current form, it would certainly swamp the parable article. However, the current form does seem to give undue weight to a belief of a minor religion, with not a great deal of third party sources. The existing parable article should also be expanded to include other interpretations that may exist.--] (]) 06:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
::::A better solution would be to rename the FDS article as '''Faithful and discreet slave class''' and allow it to remain focused on the JW doctrine. That teaching, after all, is one of the central JW teachings about the basis of its authority and the claims of the channel of communication between God and mankind. A link would remain to the ] article. ] (]) 07:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC) | |||
:::::'''Oppose.'''<br />Anyway, aside from ], does any other translation of read <br />If not (I believe not), there is no reason to append "class" to the name to distinguish this from a teaching wholly unrelated to Jehovah's Witnesses. Incidentally, why not move this talk section to ]?<br />--] (]) 22:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Accusation of bias == | |||
== Obsolete and Innacurate Article Provokes Vandalism == | |||
After adding an innocuous wikilink to this article, an IP editor {{User|24.78.228.96}} claimed at ] that the previous absence of the wikilink is an example of "glaring bias". The page where the IP editor complained is a defunct WikiProject and is therefore unlikely to get much response there. I have therefore copied the existing discussion from there below.--] (]) 07:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
A recent act of vandalism on this article identified the reason why this article experiences vandalism: "This article is incorrect in many areas and does not represent the history or beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses." | |||
:{{User|24.78.228.96}}, I must confess I am confused. Your internal wikilink is still present and the only edit {{User|Jeffro77}} made was to remove the underscore. That edit didn't change the internal link or even render it inert. Your added link is still there, it still works, there was no attempt to "wipe it away". What is the problem here? I would also like it to be known that {{User|24.78.228.96}} has posted on a semi-retired user's talk page, questioning to move of this discussion. ] (]) 11:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
::You’re right to be confused. They seem to believe that the previous absence of the wikilink constitutes some fundamental attack on Christianity. Their personal attack in the discussion below is quite odd too. My removal of the underscore from the link was made a few hours ''after'' their initial complaint and was entirely incidental cleanup.—] (]) 11:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Did you realise it is possible to Google-search for questions about Witness's believe. Select sources at: WOL.JW.ORG and find out what they believe from them, not those who hate them. | |||
:The Witnesses not 'fooled', but are kind, happy people. | |||
:Folks owe it to themselves to search for truth, and avoid hate talk. ] (]) 15:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::You don't seem to be suggesting any change to the article. Aside from that, I could also ask the (hypothetical) creepy guy who drives his van around schools to find out what he says about himself too. So why should people restrict themselves only to your preferred denomination's website rather than get a third-party perspective?--] <span style="padding:2px 4px;background-color:#eee;color:#000;border:1px solid #000;font-size:12px;border-radius:4px;">]</span> 01:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
As much effort as was put into hunting down information that was obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed, to contradict current information about the subject of this article - and to maintain the edit war required to keep it there - if a small fraction of this effort were put instead into providing current information, there would not be this edit war between obsoletionists and members of the public who have little concept how to edit Misplaced Pages, but who know enough about the subject to recognize misinformation when they see it. ] (]) 18:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Discussion copied from '']''=== | |||
I can't believe that after all this time there is bias in these articles and twisting of the facts and truth. | |||
:Articles associated with Jehovah's Witnesses have always attracted vandalism. The statement you removed was probably outdated, though it was certainly revealing of the attitudes of Watch Tower Society of just a few decades ago. But "oudated" statements are certainly not the sole reason why idiots feel the need to mark their territory on this website. It is a common occurrence for users, both anonymous and account holders, to remove indisputable facts about Witnesses from the article simply because they find them uncomfortable. ] (]) 19:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I start reading and right in the second paragraph some one has added a note about some dissemination of some news. | |||
This isn't some news that no one else is talking about that can be glossed over like that. | |||
There are bible translations out there that use the very phrase "]" because it refers to ], | |||
that every Christian denomination refers to. | |||
So I changed it to what it should be and even added and internal link to the article for "The Gospel" which says in the first line, also referred to as "The Good News." These are the And I am worried that this twisting of the facts by omission is shows a glaring bias. And I request that it be observed for a period, placed on a watch list, or whatever is official done at this project. Thank you. ] (]) 06:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:It seems as though you may be over-reacting. You added a wikilink to the article, which was uncontested. It is not clear how the previous absence of that one wikilink indicates any 'twisting of facts', nor is it clear what other 'glaring bias' you're alluding to. You have not attempted to engage anyone at the article's Talk page regarding your concerns.--] (]) 09:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
::There he is, the man himself. I would want a second opinion on absolutely anything you have to say. As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern. I'm glad you're here to minimize that point, which also vindicates my concern. ] (]) 16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::And if the hypothetical boogeyman you've invented shows up, you can discuss their objections on the article's Talk page. The absence of a single wikilink that was overlooked because the context was already clear is not the conspiracy you imagine it to be. Apart from your pointless rhetoric here, there is no problem at all with the change you made to the article.--] (]) 04:00, 13 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::The term "good news", without a wikilink, was first introduced into the text of the original article ] by {{User|AuthorityTam}}, a pro-JW editor, on 2 April 2009. Elements of the subject relating to ''beliefs'' were split to ] on 14 August 2010, with the same wording retained, and the article was renamed ] later the same day. The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'. | |||
:::If you have any legitimate concerns of bias to discuss regarding the article, please start a section at the article's Talk page.--] (]) 04:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::I have reviewed every change made to the lead of the article in question. Apart from occasional section or page blanking by vandals (some being JW supporters trying to redirect traffic to the denomination's website), the only change made to the term "good news" in the lead was one removal of the quotations marks around the term on 23 December 2014, which was reverted the same day. But if the IP editor won't take my word for it, they are welcome to review the history of the article themselves and point out any instance where the absent wikilink was supposedly added and then removed due to some imagined 'bias'.--] (]) 05:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::As I've already said, when I came across the article, the term "The Good News" (as a reference to Gospel's purpose, of every Christian denomination) was NOT there. What was there was written as some , which is a smear and a slight on this religion. No proverbial wheelbarrel full of distraction you bring into this can change that. ] (]) 22:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::More than happy to hear whether other contributors here, or at the article’s Talk page where you should have raised your objection, agree with your novel reasoning on this matter.—] (]) 23:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::I would also add that Jehovah's Witnesses do not capitalise the term "good news" (even when referring to the gospel). Additionally, the original editor who added the term included an extended quotation (which is still present 12 years later) in the supporting citation showing the use of "good news" explicitly in the context of Christian "proselytizing" (and the cited source explicitly explains that no negative connotation of the term "proselytize" is meant). The wikilink that has been added (which the IP editor imagines will be attacked for some bizarre reason) is entirely appropriate, but its absence was by no stretch of the imagination any attempt at 'smearing Christianity'.--] (]) 01:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
(1) "smearing Christianity" is not what I wrote, either you don't understand my point, you are pretending not to understand my point, or just twisting my words right in plain sight. <br> | |||
(2) "posted on a semi-retired user's talk page" is relevant only if you ignore that all those names are still on the project participant list. <br>] (]) 11:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:Your exact words were “smear and a slight on this religion” and paraphrasing as ‘smearing Christianity’ is accurate. (''Jehovah's Witnesses'' is a ''denomination'' of ''Christianity'' which is a ''religion''. I am not responsible for your possible misuse of the terms.) I’m not interested in childish semantic debates. It remains the case that your accusations and personal attacks are entirely unfounded. If you have any legitimate concerns of bias in the article, present them.] (]) 11:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
::User:Jeffro77, You are false, and your accusation of semantics is false, I wrote my statement on the "Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs" page not the "Christianity" page, so you paraphrasing is exactly what I called it, "twisting my words." If I'm writing "this religion" on a Jehovah's Witness talkpage, you can't reinterpret it as all of Christianity, that's your falsehood not my semantics. You've managed to double down on your tunnel vision this time, the first time was not bothering to note that any old news is not the Good News. ] (]) | |||
::: This entire ‘dispute’ exists only in your own mind. I already indicated in a previous response to your unfounded personal attack that the context of the ‘good news’ in the article was clearly in reference to ‘the gospel’ and not ‘news’ generically. I’m sorry that you’re so disheartened by the absence of a wikilink that someone other than me failed to add when they made a change 12 years ago, but unless you can provide me with a time machine, there is nothing I can do about it. Just calm down.--] (]) 23:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:: I hadn't realised that you had sent out a Group Notice when I saw your change from the 'Recent Changes' list. Due to the large edit size and the summary only being 'gn' it looked suspiciously like vandalism. I caution you that you must assume good faith ], we are not trying to silence you or twist your words, we are confused as to your actions. '''Your edit still stands, the link still works, please explain what the problem is more clearly.''' | |||
::Side-note: | |||
::If you're looking to get more involved with a religion wikiproject then I recommend ] or ] as they are much more active and not listed as 'Defunct'. You can continue to contribute towards ] and help reduce bias while being in a more active environment. I also recommend that you create an account, this is so your edits are tied to a single source as IP addresses for editors often change. Learn more about why creating an account is helpful at ]. | |||
::] (]) 12:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
== RfC about conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage == | |||
::What I replaced was most likely a historical fact, and may have a proper place in a historical section. ] (]) 20:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{archive top|result='''No content dispute, no actionable result.'''<br>Twelve years ago an editor wrote ''disseminating "good news"''. An IP editor changed it to ''disseminating "the good news"''. They made various allegations of deception/bias, and asserted that their edit would be opposed. There is apparently unanimous agreement that the edit is an improvement, and there is thus no content dispute here. | |||
:::Don't attempt to justify editors' vandalism of the article with claims that the article is inaccurate. What some editors claim is inaccurate is often simply objectionable to them because they feel it puts their religion in a bad light. If an editor believes information is untrue, they should discuss the specific points.--] (]) 22:10, 30 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Who was justifying anything? The "editing" that brought this particular obsolete information to our attention was very sloppy. There appeared to be odd bits of punctuation and reference tag left dangling afterward. | |||
An RFC to request to "review of the conduct" on a talk page is inappropriate. Conduct issues may be raised at ]. However the IP editor should be aware that there appears to be unanimous agreement of five editors (including myself) that the only conduct issue here was the assumption and assertion of deception/bias/conflict by the IP editor. Any conduct complaints at ] or elsewhere are likely to reach the same conclusion. I advise them to review our conduct guideline: ]. ] (]) 08:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)}} | |||
::::I'm trying to encourage the inclusion of up-to-date information, and the replacement of obsolete information in the article. If we don't want people doing such sloppy edits, we should have correct information in the first place. | |||
I would like a review of the conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage? | |||
::::However, since you bring up the subject of justification, when we add or restore information, the burden of evidence for the information we add or restore is on us. On the other hand, from http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence : | |||
The policy tag is there for a broader more neutral request <br> | |||
in this spirit of ] where things started. ] (]) 21:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC) <br> | |||
* '''Concerned:''' My request is vindicated by false accusations, such as "vandalism" for messaging project members. ] (]) 21:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::''Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations, and do not move it to the talk page.'' | |||
* I have (briefly) reviewed the conduct on the article, as well as on this, its talk page, of the IP user 24.78.228.96, and at ]. I did all this solely because I saw an RfC notice ]. My assessment is that nothing terrible has happened, except that 24.78.228.96 appears to be unduly incensed that a two-word phrase was never linked to a WP target page. 24.78.228.96 added the link, addressing the situation, causing no complaints or negative reactions by anybody on the planet, and still: 24.78.228.96 has fussed, complained, argued, sneered at or even ] another user and started an (IMO) unnecessary RfC.{{pb}}My advice would be for IP user 24.78.228.96 to calm down, maybe even take a short break, then look over their actions and try to see that what we've got here is a whole lot of overreaction by an IP user, and a whole lot of calm discipline on the part of the other (logged-in) editors. <i>— ] (])</i> 22:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
** I too have (slightly more than briefly, but not in-depth) looked at this conversation (as far as I can follow it). There is no actual problem to look at, despite the fact that the IP is requesting someone look at it. The edit is still in (a wiki-link of all things), '''and was never challenged'''. It appears their complaint is that it wasn't wiki-linked already. Jeffro clearly explained that it was simply an oversight when the edits to the page were originally made ("The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. '''At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'.'''"). The IP appears to be wanting an RFC because they THINK that something that hasn't occurred (the removal of their wiki-link) will occur at some point ("'''As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern.'''"). This appears to be completely pointless on every level. | |||
** One final note on the "attack" that can be seen via the link in JohnFromPinckney's above post: I do not believe it rises to the level of an actual attack. Declaring that you would want a second opinion because you don't trust the first person's is certainly rude and childish, but does not constitute an attack IMO. Unless there is another more blatant personal attack that the IP has done elsewhere that I have missed, I say we simply dismiss the RFC. ] (]) 00:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::It was a personal attack, as the wording was specifically targeted at me rather than a general statement about wanting a second opinion, though the specific motivation is unclear. However, the attack is ''trivial'' and as it is unlikely the editor will apologise, it can simply be ignored at this point unless the behaviour continues.--] (]) 00:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Comment''' - aside from spamming the former participants of the defunct WikiProject indicated previously (causing some degree of confusion, including but not limited to another editor initially thinking the group message might have been vandalism), the anonymous IP is continuing to ] for support of this RFC, though it is not clear what the editor is actually expecting to achieve.--] (]) 07:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Clarifying.''' Since I keep being misquoted. I originally was concerned with the wording of "a good news" (insinuating some other) since this is not a new article, there seemed to me to be bias in that it was left incorrectly worded (for so long) to suggest something it is not, in a lead paragraph no less. "a good news" is a different thing as "The Good News AKA the Gospel" and the minimizing struck me as an ugly dangerous bias. My concern about the correction of "a good news" (not the internal link) being reverted is only cautionary and the internal link is not the main concern I first raise, that has lead to these processes. All along the way though, User:Jeffro77 has twisted what I had to say to suite his purposes: Taking what I had to say at the ] away from that context, and then attacking me for referring to that context, by calling me a spammer for messaging members of that project, is to me good evidence of acting on bias. Saying I am referring to all of Christianity when I am talking about "this religion" on the "Jehovah's Witness beliefs" talkpage is another example of his twisting my words. User:Jeffro77 immediately misquoted me when her first saw that I was talking about the wording of the second lead paragraph, and started instead referring to the link I had added to take attention away from my actual concern, and everyone that has followed has critisized me for what he claims is my concern, not what I actually wrote at ]. I was not aware that the projects was left behind when I first went looking for the correct channel to complain about the bias in the lead paragraph. But having found that resource I tried to make full use of it. If User:Jeffro77 hadn't been taking me out of context and twisting what I had to say from the start this would not have escalated to where it is, because this behaviour served only to fuel my concerns about bias in this/these articles. Left in the context of concern for bias, if you look at it from the start, he has reveal himself through his edits here. ] (]) 18:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*:1. The article never said “a good news”, and no one has complained about your change to the article. The context was already evident from the supporting citation, but the introduction of “the” was an improvement. As with the wikilink, it is not the case that the word “the” was ever previously added and then subsequently removed from the phrase, due to alleged bias or for any other reason, since the term “good news” was added in 2009. Despite your false accusations that I have deliberately misquoted or misrepresented your intentions, you did initially only add the wikilink, and it was a few minutes later that you added "the", so it is not clear how I was expected to know your primary concern. I repeatedly said very clearly that there was no problem with your change. JW literature does not capitalise the term “good news” (even when referring to the gospel). (Also, various mainstream Bibles, including the "Good News Translation", contain the rendering "good news" without "the" at {{bibleref|Luke|4:18}}. Jehovah's Witnesses' ''New World Translation'' also has "good news" without "the" at that verse along with Luke 3:18; and 16:16.) | |||
*:2. I am in no way responsible for the wording chosen by another editor (and a supporter of the denomination in question) 12 years ago. | |||
*:3. The WikiProject you posted on was labelled as defunct in 2012. Everything you said at that page was copied to this page, with full context and clearly indicated as being moved from that page. | |||
*:4. Jehovah’s Witnesses is a denomination and Christianity is a religion. Your misuse of the terms is not my responsibility. | |||
*:5. You started this entire train wreck by crying out ‘bias’ over an edit you made that no one complained about. If you had just made the change and left it at that, reviewers such as myself would have casually thought, “oh, yeah, that’s better” and enjoyed the rest of our day.--] (]) 21:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*"Disseminating good news" is a deceptive minimizing spin on what they do, because it suggests something other than "The Gospel," AKA the Christian Good News. You will never get me to agree to anything different from that statement. Having accepted that it is deceptive, the bias is clear. You will never get met to agree to anything different from that either. There is no point in arguing with you, you just don't want to see it. ] (]) <!--Template:Undated--><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added 09:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
*:At this point, I don't really care if you 'agree'. You made an edit that was uncontested, and your opinion of me is irrelevant. If you have any ''actual'' concerns with article content, present those concerns. Otherwise, just go away. If you continue with any irrelevant personal attacks, you will be reported to admins.--] (]) 14:03, 20 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*:The previous wording that you insist is ‘biased’ was added by a pro-JW editor 12 years ago, so you ordinarily would need to take up your concerns with that editor. But the editor hasn’t been active for several years, so I guess you can just relax.—] (]) 22:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
*'''Note:''' I have removed the RfC tag, as the topic raised by the OP is entirely unsuitable as subject matter for an RfC: RfCs are intended to be used solely to solicit feedback regarding content matters, not behavioural issues and disputes--the RfC/U process was retired by the community seven years ago for exactly this reason. Since there is no live editorial dispute identified in this "RfC" prompt, let alone a narrowly defined one with a specific proposal/solution to !vote on or otherwise engage with to the benefit of the article, this entire discussion is not only not appropriate to the process, it really ought to be hatted. I suggest that if the OP still has concerns about the conduct of other editors here, they have the option to use ] or another appropriate forum for reporting behavioural issues. Although, frankly, viewing just as much of the exchange here as regards this thread and the related dispute, I would not necessarily recommend it as I think a ] block for a combination of disruption and CIR concerns would be the most likely outcome. In short, 24.78.228.96, I would take your win on the content issue (which if I am reading the forgoing discussion correctly, was not even being blocked with regard to your preferred approach) and walk with it. ''] ]'' 12:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
{{archive bottom}} | |||
===Summary of my edits=== | |||
::::"Puts their religion in a bad light" seems to mean the same thing as "might damage the reputation of living persons or organizations", and information based upon sources that were obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed seems to be "poorly sourced material". ] (]) 07:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
I'm thankful for everyone who took the time to explain the technicalities of Misplaced Pages. My intentions were never to buck the system or to misuse what I know. There used to exist an ''']''' dedicated to correcting the bias that crept into articles on religion here because there were contentious disagreements about how religion articles should be written on specific denominations because people with bias could hide behind user IDs and pretend to be in favour of improving an article while they sabotaged it with their edits. So when I read in the intro that this denominations activities were being minimized, "some news" which could mean anything rather than the Christian gospel "good news," I was struck with how what they do was being misrepresented, and I looked for help where ever I could, because it surprised me that this false bit of information and misrepresentation had been in the introduction of the article for so long, for 12 years it turns out. Whether it was added by a real JW or a false JW 12 years ago who can know. But my RfC was not about user conduct specifically. My point is the '''single most important''' bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented for a very long time, right in the introduction, and who knows how many other JW articles have this kind of sabotage in them? You can see from the above discussion that I tried to highlight that it was a concern for me, and it was just brushed under the carpet. My edit wasn't just adding an internal link, my edit wasn't just a small rewording, an addition of an internal link which had yet to be contested, but that I had to make it in the first place after 12 years. If you don't care about the correctness of the information in the article then it wouldn't matter to you that it had been wrong for 12 or so years. But the point is that all of Christianity revolves around "the good news" (AKA The Gospel) and if you take that away from Jehovah's Witnesses you're sabotaging their place as a Christian denomination, their place as Christians and Christianity. And that this article was misrepresenting an entire denomination's prime doctrine for 12 or so years, is a '''shame''' on this encyclopedia. Technically what I did may have been the wrong approach, backwards approach, but the record now exists of how my intention was received and how my points were minimized and/or twisted. Like saying it was "just a link" (paraphrase, see above) is taking what I wrote out of context by ignoring the other half. So I am thankful that this record exists, I'm sorry I'm not perfectly fluent in Misplaced Pages syntax & procedure, but I have no doubt in this case that the ends justifies the means. ] (]) 12:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::Without indicating exactly ''what'' was supposedly "obsolete before Misplaced Pages even existed", this discussion is meaningless. Obsolete information is neither a cause nor a justification for vandalism; the two things are entirely independent. Perhaps someone would care to indicate ''what'' they consider "obsolete" or "innacurate ".--] (]) 07:35, 31 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
:You're still complaining about a perceived problem over the inclusion of a link and one word, which has already been addressed. There is no actionable request here. Just to be clear, your claim that "the '''single most important''' bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented" is completely false, as the source added 12 years ago included a quote stating very clearly that the "good news" refers to the Christian 'gospel' and not some vague general sense. Perhaps, if you imagine there to be some broad problem with the way the denomination is presented in Misplaced Pages, you could focus on what you imagine to be the most serious concern rather than this ultimately mundane oversight that has already been corrected.--] (]) 03:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC) | |||
:I'm a bit confused here. JWs would deny that their organization is a denomination of Christianity, as they believe they are the only Christians in the universe. What most people call "Christianity" they would denounce as demonic. And they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion. ] (]) 23:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, it ''doesn't matter'' that JWs don't consider other Christian denominations to be 'real Christians', for the same reason that it doesn't matter that some other Christians don't consider JWs to be 'real Christians'. Your statement that "they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion" is simply false.--] (]) 01:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
== God's throne in the Pleiades == | |||
::::::There is no justification for destructive editing. Why do you keep bringing that up? However, there is no need to provoke it, either. | |||
This used to be taught - should it be mentioned? I don't think it has ever been officially denied. https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/34882/our-father-who-art-pleiades --] (]) 00:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::Meanwhile, obsolete information doesn't provoke anything. However, inaccurate information that damages the reputation of people or organizations does. | |||
:No. A) It's a very old teaching that wasn't particularly prevalent or highlighted even when it was taught. And B) the website you gave literally denies it in the quote from the 1953 WT. ] (]) 00:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::It certainly isn't noteworthy in the scope of their current beliefs. However, I have added it at ].--] (]) 01:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::Beginning with: 20:59, March 29, 2010 76.105.149.144 (talk) (87,201 bytes) (→Evangelism) (undo) (Tag: references removed) until now, most if not all editing done in the Evangelism section of this article have involved the deletion, restoration, replacement, supplementing, or tweaking of statements about pioneering, that were originally partly sourced from a 1955 ''Watchtower'' and 1973 ''Our Kingdom Ministry'', and partly unsourced. Ironically, only the unsourced information, (the explanation that pioneering means 70 hours of evangelizing), turned out to be correct when checked against reasonably current sources. | |||
::::::Interspersed between destructive editing from 76.105.149.144 and my attempts to replace the obsolete information, at least 2 established editors restored obsolete information that has been criticized as a guilt trip. | |||
::::::BTW, thank you for your efforts to improve it! ] (]) 18:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
== Theocratic warfare == | |||
* Moved to ], along with subsections.<br /> | |||
===Tolerating evasiveness is not distinct=== | |||
* Moved to ] | |||
===Related question=== | |||
* Moved to ] | |||
===Coatrack=== | |||
* Moved to ] | |||
See --] (]) 20:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Use of scriptures== | |||
I am new to wiki,but while I am reading this article I feel the article does not contain information for a research.It just states there beliefs rather than why? Also in the quality scale rated as B were its defined as "Readers are not left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher". | |||
So my point is if a theology student want to make a serious understanding of their beliefs won't it be good to just mention the scriptures which Jehovah's witnesses use to make their stand? | |||
For example it is given that they base there beliefs on bible;So if they believe Jehovah is their God to worship,then won't it be good to add an informative statement like "They use these scriptures( just include the scripture location) to endorse or interpret this belief". won't it be more informative to the reader? | |||
Or Am I wrong? Is there any rule in wiki that not to mention any scriptures? | |||
I suggest to include some scriptures they use to interpret their beliefs to make the article informative..] (]) 15:55, 11 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:A number of scriptural references already exist in the article to make clear where some of those beliefs are drawn from. I don't see any statements of belief that appear to need scriptures ... but if you disagree, please indicate which beliefs you refer to. ] (]) | |||
::], it is sometimes appropriate to explain that a particular JW believe is based on a particular scripture, particularly if there is a specific phrase in a scripture being discussed. However, scriptures should not simply be stated in the fashion employed in ''The Watchtower'', as if to imply that a particular scripture can be interpreted only the JW way or that applying a particular scripture a certain way is uncontested. Please see ].--] (]) 08:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Yes I do accept with your point that not to mention scriptures in brackets as in watchtower.But I have added a summary at last,which is informative and the user could easily get an idea what they believe and the scriptures they use to interpret.It is vital because many beliefs mentioned in the summary are not included inside the article.And a general reader won't see scriptures but for a serious reader it is surely helpful.It does not violate any wiki policies because it is informative.regards..] (]) 09:23, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Using the entire table the way you have done could be a copyright violation. Some of the wording may need to be cleaned up for a more encyclopedic style and to reduce the jargonish feel. Also not entirely convinced that a long table containing points on many different subjects that are not clearly delineated is entirely helpful as a summary.--] (]) 10:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Also note that the article should not attempt to ''teach'' (that is ''convince'') readers that JW beliefs are ''true'' (or ''false'') by using the Bible as an ']', as is clearly the purpose in the document the table is lifted from.--] (]) 10:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for comments,may be we need to change some words to make it an encyclopedic style.I don't think it have a copyright problem once we change some vocabulary,further most of those scriptures are also present in many of their books and known to the adherents of JW. The article does not teach or convince because in header it says "Scriptures on which '''their''' interpretation is based". Its just gives a clear idea of most of their belief's and if we try to explain each one in separate headings it would be too big. So this table is easy to understand and helps the common readers to have a basic understanding of most teachings, whereas an advanced reader could have a detailed view on their interpretations..regards..] (]) 11:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::The table isn't exactly brief. Some adaptation of this could work, possibly broken into smaller subject-based tables in relevant subsections. I'll think about possible alternative presentation. Assessing its suitability will also require input from other editors, and maybe a ] from an uninvolved party.--] (]) 11:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::Much of the content of the table repeats material already in the body of the article. Scriptural citations are unnecessary for many statements of belief and pointless in others. How do Galatians 3:13 and Acts 5:30 support a view that Jesus died on a stake when those scriptures refer to a tree? How does Matthew 15:3 support the view that the Bible is more reliable than tradition? How does Psalms 72:1-4 support a view that the "Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth"? I'm not here to debate the truth or logic of those statements, but taking up such a huge section of the article with spurious and tenuous citations is excessive. Brief summaries of their core beliefs, as already present in the article, are sufficient. ] (]) 12:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::I agree that it is not necessary to include everything that is in the table (which is verbatim from a JW webpage). It might be suitable to summarise key beliefs with the more commonly used scriptures for the ''most significant'' doctrinal views in ''some'' of the relevant sections; also, for points that are not distinctive of JWs, it is almost certainly unnecessary to provide specific scriptures. I'm assuming the specific questions above are rhetorical. The table in its current format seems to seek to 'prove' that JWs base their beliefs on the Bible, and that should not be the intent of the article.--] (]) 13:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:'''About keeping scriptures:'''It is vital to include scriptures because most people see JW with bible and arguing with people.And hence people are curious to know what scriptures they use and (may be they could use them for debate). As I mentioned the topic is about the '''beliefs of JW's''' and '''not some other religion''' .Hence,As it is mentioned they reject many usual Christianity teaching and base on bible,it would useful atleast to give info regarding the scriptures they use to make their beliefs..] (]) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not convinced that it is "vital" to include scriptures, and certainly not for ''all'' of the entries in the table. (On what do you base your ideas about "most people"?) Many of the entries are typical Christian beliefs, and do not require special elaboration from scripture in this article. It is POV to say that JWs "reject many usual Christianity teaching and base on bible", because other Christian religions also have their own ''interpretations'' of the Bible consistent with their own beliefs. I'm not aware that articles about other religions have a similar table, though such a tabulation of selected scriptural interpretations would be equally possible.--] (]) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::So you say some beliefs are common to other Christians so u are going to trim it right?Then please mention at the heading I given below about which are the beliefs u feel common and then trim?.Don't compare other religion because JW are always put in debate. Other religion theologists are in debate about there own beliefs itself.But you may note that although other religious articles don't use much scriptures they have explained the evolution of their traditional theology.So they may can't make a table with their general beliefs with scriptures,but they may be able to make a table with the time-line of traditional doctrine evolution.But as JW's not believe in tradition more points are to be included from scriptures as in the table.Because of this only JW even though they form a low population their articles are always highly important.Why cant people here add some criticisms to other religions sex abuse cases or detestable things they do in a detailed way or have some genuine interest in criticisms of other religions.Because people are uncomfortable here with JW.Be positive..] (]) 14:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:'''About link to JW home page:'''I agree with the argument that the reference given will make people to visit to JW website.So I had removed the link,And added a reference to that magazine name(Who are JW?What they beleive?) citing the page..] (]) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I'm not aware that anyone complained that "the reference given will make people to visit to JW website", though if you had that impression yourself, then you're probably right.--] (]) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I remember there was an argument tasting like that so only I mentioned..] (]) 15:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:'''About breaking the table:'''Most readers don't want to read all the history and content given above,rather they are satisfied by have an understanding about their beliefs line by line as given in summary.If we remove some points because it is mentioned earlier or split it would be inconvenient to the reader as there would be no option for a quick view about all their beliefs in an easyway...] (]) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I agree somewhat that it is convenient to have a concise summary of beliefs, but disagree that it's necessary to include the entire list merely because that was what exists on the JW website it's copied from (verbatim). I see no reason to include entries that are not distinctive of JWs. I will trim and probably redistribute the list when I have more time.--] (]) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Another problem with this particular table from the JW source is that it only includes scriptures about topics they want to address, rather than a neutral selection of distinctive beliefs. Additionally, readers wanting something concise probably aren't going to look up the cited scriptures, and just stating a scripture reference can imply support where no real explicit support exists; e.g. the scriptures about blood say absolutely nothing about 'taking blood into the veins', etc, yet they are offered as 'support'.--] (]) 14:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::what things u going to trim plz notify in the heading I given just below with the reasons? If it is same as other all mainstream Christians I am ok .'''U said distinctive,I feel almost all are distinctive and required'''.If u find some beleifs are same please mention there and then change after talks are over.Also include details about your finding in neutral selection. About blood we shall change the heading to '''witnesses do not take blood''',instead of as it is given now.So it makes ok for both side. About the argument that people will believe it is right when given in scriptures...we can make links to bible gateway and people have their own options and as JW are always under debate they at least know there basic beleifs with the scriptures JW's use..] (]) 14:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:'''About the debate''': The scriptures put at debate (about death in cross or stake) for that we could add the specific translation they use (NW) in bracket. Also its JW's own interpretation and readers are aware of that..And about psalms (good living conditions) it is '''JW's own interpretation as in the heading'''. So nothing we can say about the scriptures they use as it is JW's own interpretation.Readers are aware have there own opinions.'''But our duty is to mention their beliefs and scriptures they use to interpret without arguing to any side and hence we keep neutrality''''..] (]) 13:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Falling back on things being "their interpretation" sounds like a bit of a slippery slope toward justifying preachiness.--] (]) 14:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::No slopping its neutral..people have there own options but it is important to at least mention their most beleifs..] (]) 14:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
===neutral selection of non distinctive beliefs from table=== | |||
If you intend to trim some beliefs from the summary table because you feel that the belief is not distinctive for JW when compared to mainstream Christians or it is not neutral then please mention the belief here and then make decision after the talk is over.Because I feel almost all the beliefs given there are distinctive when compared to mainstream Christians and are hence required.Also please note that Jehovah's witnesses are not included in mainstream Christianity category.] (]) 14:52, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Breaking of the table=== | |||
I have argued with reasons above to keep the table without splitting in to other places.I feel the table given at last makes it easy for the common reader who don't want much details to get most of JW beliefs easily without much reading.Also it contains many distinctive teaching of JW which are not mentioned in the article.Finally, a summary(means recap or shorter version of whole concept) is always written at the end of the article. But if someone intend to split please notify here first with the reasons and then make decision after having the talk..] (]) 15:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I have removed the table for now, as it may be a ]. It can still be discussed, however in its current form, it is neither appropriate, nor a summary of the article.--] (]) 09:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
===Use of scriptures in the table=== | |||
please keep in mind the scriptures given in the table are '''interpreted by JW only''' as given in the table heading. It is used to give information to the advanced reader about the scriptures JW use to interpret their own beliefs. And it does not mean to coerce the reader as the topic is dedicated to JW beliefs. Also the reader is aware the interpretations are JW's own and not accepted generally .What ever JW believe we have included it in a neutral way.And hence I ask u all '''not to make a religious debate with the scripture'''. But for other reasons please inform here and then make decision once the talk is over.] (]) 15:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:The table is excessively long and detailed for an encyclopedia article and repeats material already in the article. Some of the scriptures offer only dubious support for the statements. It is effectively hijacking the article to present argumentive detail. Readers seeking such content would be better served by simply providing an external link to that table at the JW website. ] (]) 21:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::The table when compared to the long article is short and simple.As the topic is dedicated to beliefs and practices of JW's only, it should be noted that an Encyclopedia(means A comprehensive reference work with numerous aspects of particular field) is expected to give almost all JW's believes with explanation.But here only core beleifs or not even all core beliefs are given in article.'''You think it would be then large to fit inside the page.If you feel like that one option is to keep beliefs and practices separately in two articles.Or another option is what I did here with the table.'''Readers are not hijacked, are you? probably No.Hijacked or not Hijacked cannot be supported as a reason for keeping things as it should be kept. You may not worried about what you said Dubious support for statements because,any Reader who is so serious about religion could too understand it is dubious as you said if he is interested like you or if he is thinking of changing religion.Further if someone reduce the scriptures by keeping only the scriptures that are directly supporting the belief,then he would be probably making the article to support the beliefs strongly from scripture.So it is advisable to keep all scriptures JW's use to interpret, whether it could be understood directly or indirectly that shouldn't be bothered.Further our aim is not mix argument rather to include some useful information about JW beliefs. Also '''you said it is repetitive,but don't you know a summary means a recap or shorter version of whole concept?''' so it is important for an encyclopedia to include such things otherwise we can call it as a dictionary.Simply providing an external link may be necessary in case we want to have a detailed explanation of each belief.But for merely stating all their general beliefs the table is easy and simple to comprehend by a first look....] (]) 04:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::]--] (]) 09:03, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::'''If the article is too big instead of trying to remove some important distinct beliefs divide it separately in to practices and beliefs'''..] (]) 09:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::In this instance, it was your repetitive multi-section ''responses'' that were too long; I was not referring to the (copyvio) table (though that also is too long as a 'summary').--] (]) 09:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::The fundamental problem with this table, being lifted straight from a JW webpage, is that it is ''not'' a summary of this article. It contains elements that are not considered at this article ''at all'' (some of which might be notable enough to add), and there are elements in the article that are not summarised by the table ''at all''.--] (]) 09:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::U keep saying again and again the phrase "lifted from JW page",but where can one expect the correct beliefs of JW other than from their own website or their own magazines? The table contains beliefs followed by JW but in addition there are some important distinct beliefs missing too.So if those missing beliefs are not in the article its our duty to include them to in the article with interpretation they give.Otherwise what is the need of encyclopedia article specially dedicated for their beliefs and practices? So it is good to use the table content which can not only summarize the article but also can at least state other major beliefs of them which are not mentioned in the article.I will be trying to find those beliefs which you said not in article and add data too..] (]) 09:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Either the table, lifted from the WT website, has to be reworded completely to avoid the problem of copyright violation, or be removed entirely and an external link added. It's not acceptable to copy such work from a website to Misplaced Pages. This encyclopedia is ''based'' on sources, it doesn't simply reproduce them. ] (]) 09:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::The content of the table does not correspond to the content of the article. I am not saying that JW literature cannot be used to cite JW beliefs. However, there is limited value in a somewhat arbitrary selection of beliefs in a table in comparison to what is actually in the article. As ''already'' stated, some of the concepts missing from the article but present in the table could be added, however, what about the reverse?? What about the elements that are '''not''' covered in the table? Are you going to suggest a synthesis of other elements, or do you want to just ignore them entirely because they're not from the JW site? Also, it would be better to have the relevant parts of each table in each relevant section rather than a 'summary' that is longer than many of the sections combined.--] (]) 09:45, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Nope I am not saying to ignore some beliefs what you said to ignore,but I don't remember any other major belief their ignored.I found holy spirit was ignored and hence added.Also I checked the article with the summary.'''Almost all the points in the summary are being mentioned in the article directly or indirectly.'''..] (]) 09:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::It ''might'' be that ''the article covers what is in the table'' but the ''reverse'' is definitely not true. '''The table does not cover everything that is in the article'''. It is therefore '''not''' a "summary". It ''is'', however against Misplaced Pages's copyright policy, so I have removed the table.--] (]) 09:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::.The removed part of article is subjected to fair use.It should be reverted.Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, '''teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use)''', scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include: | |||
::::::::::*the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a '''commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes''' | |||
::::::::::*the nature of the copyrighted work | |||
::::::::::*the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole | |||
::::::::::* '''the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.''' | |||
::::::::::'''When Considering the nature of copyrighted work the watchtower publications,they are of non-profit distribution and hence can be used under educational purpose here.''' Hence the article is under fair use policy of Misplaced Pages.so it should be reverted..] (]) 12:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Table reflected the summary of article,and only a small portion of the JW magazine is copied here.The arguements by user Jehonathan was not satifactorly answered and user Jeffro had done decision wrongly without considering fair copyright.But table is useful as per above talks though some changes may necessary.] (]) 12:26, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:One JW's and tons of uncomfortable ex-JW's ha ha..I am at 20 and proud no one here could stop my reasonable arguments and finally as they found no other way to stop my arguments simply deleted the table with a treacherous copyright scheme. Any way remember even if u die here you people cannot stop JW's anywhere.The one who is wise and humble he will attain godly wisdom,others who think they are wiser than Godly organization which helped them to attain basics are mere fools.I will be around in my mother tongue Malayalam Misplaced Pages then.There no much people like you who are so much discomforted by JW's rather they encourage me to write.At least there I could write neutral articles exposing what we believe with the table of scriptures.Learn Malayalam and come there to delete because I am going to hijack(as you fear) many there to JW with bible.One thing also don't forget please delete this comment,otherwise you won't be comfortable in your seat.."Happy is the men who not sit beside ridicules and fools,but whose delight in the law of Jehovah"..Goodbye to English Misplaced Pages..:) ] (]) 10:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::Request has been given for third opinion..] (]) 12:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::It is an entirely false claim that the table is a representative summary of the article in which it has been pasted (that is, it ''does not accurately correspond to the article content'' - '''there are elements in the table not considered in the article, and there are elements in the article not considered in the table'''). If the information is to be retained, it needs to be separated with the relevant points in the relevant sections. The bulky table separate from the relevant sections is not helpful as a 'summary' and is longer than many of the sections combined. If the elements of the table are to be retained, there should be adequate balance by providing similar information for other sections in the article for which the table is not at all representative. Additionally, using the entire table as is would certainly seem to be an "Excessively long copyrighted excerpt" (]). Using that particular table just because it's from the official JW site is not neutral. Vying for its retention when it is not a representative summary of the article about which its proponent ''claims'' it is, is clearly biased.--] (]) 12:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::]: "even if u die here you people cannot stop JW's anywhere ... others who think they are wiser than Godly organization which helped them to attain basics are mere fools" - please quit the religious rhetoric. If you were honest, you would note that I have ''supported'' including scriptures JWs use to interpret the points ''in the various sections in the article'', but '''not''' using some table claiming to be a 'summary' that is ''not actually a summary of the sections in this article''.--] (]) 12:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
* Are you still seeking a Third Opinion on this issue? That is for situations in which there is a dispute between two editors, but I see more than two here. (Easy mistake to make, I've done it myself). ] (]) 22:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
==Splitting the article== | |||
The article is large having two different vast concepts namely belief and practice(99 kb).I Strongly suggest to split the article as per wiki rules. | |||
* >60 KB -> Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time) | |||
In our case we cannot justify because the scope itself can be split and is a large subject to fit together..] (]) 12:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I would support splitting to two separate articles.--] (]) 12:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
*Had been split...need clean up and adjustment as necessary..] (]) 18:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::These splits normally are discussed for more than a few hours before being implemented.<br />Also, this opportunity may be used to bring this article title in line with the general trend of listing the religion, philosophy, or group first and the word "beliefs" afterward. Consider these article names: | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
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:::By contrast, I could find only two other articles on group beliefs which begin with the word "Beliefs of": | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::# ] | |||
:::I recommend changing the article name to ] (and ]). | |||
:::--] (]) 19:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
:I was not aware of that hours rule,but was bold enough to split .There it states "If an article meets the criteria for splitting, '''editors can be bold''' and carry out the split, although discussion on the article talk page or associated Wiki Project is a way of seeking a consensus"..Thank you..humblefool 20:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Yes you are right.Shall Change it to Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs..Thank you for your nice illustration.At least you here supportive for a neutral argument..] (]) 19:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC) | |||
::There was clear delineation between the main sections of the article. There may be some need to shift (or copy and adapt) some thoughts from one article to the other that could relate to both ''beliefs'' and ''practices'', though that doesn't mean duplicating entire sections. I'll look at that more closely later.--] (]) 23:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Very important thing to mention!
Consubstantiality is usually the superficial merger of the trinity, but Jehovah Witnesses don't accept the trinity. Ok with that. But consubstantiality - Greek: to homoousion means also that the person-god Jehovah the father alone is internally non divisible - doesn't have internal constituents.
Some people say he has, some say no. Is the second definition (not about the trinity) of the ομοούσιον accepted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses? Add data about the innate consubstantiality of the person-god Jehovah as interpreted officially by the Jehovah Witnesses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:411B:BA00:B547:9A81:559A:8897 (talk) 15:24, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
- JWs have no position themselves on "consubstantiality", which is a subset of trinitarian belief, other than that they don't believe in it. It is not necessary for this article to elaborate on JW views of Catholic views.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
Memorial partakers
There used to be statistics in the annual yearbook about those who chose to partake in the Memorial. This might be worth mentioning, since only the annointed can partake. The statistics stopped being published a few years ago. 2001:1970:5A9F:C200:F16C:D508:FF47:6FBE (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
- No, the memorial partakers figures are still published annually on the official website as part of annual "Grand Totals". I'm not sure it's necessary for this article to elaborate on specific details of how many partakers there may be, as this article is a more general article about their beliefs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- It would be interesting because according to Watchtower teaching, partakers have to be born again, and being born again ended in the late 1930s. In other words, no one has been born again since then. This is part of their end times teaching, so it would be interesting to see if the numbers are in fact going down. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- That view was changed in 2007, and it is not current JW belief that only people born prior to the 1930s can be 'anointed'. Aside from that, the number claiming to be 'anointed' has indeed increased every year since 2005, but that doesn't bear directly on this article, particularly since the Watch Tower Society itself says that some 'partakers' may not 'really' be 'anointed'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well nothing has been established as for the information above.All of us who know the Religion ,know the reasons why sometimes information change.i hope many of us here are just ignorant If for reasons of not knowing some information.It would be sad and selfish if someone is twisting information knowingly.
- I can see Jehovah witness dont establish all believes and it's for a reason,to those of you who don't know!That reason is ,they fully believe in the bible but they don't trust themselves(truly humble(bible teaching into consideration)and they know their own judgement can be false. That means if something is established by them they have looked the information over and over again.Then they publish it and show it to the public.Intresting of all things ,we can backtrack all their believes and doings.Understanding is key
- .I'm not a Jehovah witness.I have a non biased opinion just like this page. 104.173.37.138 (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- That view was changed in 2007, and it is not current JW belief that only people born prior to the 1930s can be 'anointed'. Aside from that, the number claiming to be 'anointed' has indeed increased every year since 2005, but that doesn't bear directly on this article, particularly since the Watch Tower Society itself says that some 'partakers' may not 'really' be 'anointed'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It would be interesting because according to Watchtower teaching, partakers have to be born again, and being born again ended in the late 1930s. In other words, no one has been born again since then. This is part of their end times teaching, so it would be interesting to see if the numbers are in fact going down. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 23:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- You don't seem to be suggesting anything relevant to article content. This Talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not providing general opinions or speculation about JWs. See also WP:FORUM.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
Accusation of bias
After adding an innocuous wikilink to this article, an IP editor 24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs) claimed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion#Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs that the previous absence of the wikilink is an example of "glaring bias". The page where the IP editor complained is a defunct WikiProject and is therefore unlikely to get much response there. I have therefore copied the existing discussion from there below.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- 24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs), I must confess I am confused. Your internal wikilink is still present and the only edit Jeffro77 (talk · contribs) made was to remove the underscore. That edit didn't change the internal link or even render it inert. Your added link is still there, it still works, there was no attempt to "wipe it away". What is the problem here? I would also like it to be known that 24.78.228.96 (talk · contribs) has posted on a semi-retired user's talk page, questioning to move of this discussion. Jthekid15 (talk) 11:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- You’re right to be confused. They seem to believe that the previous absence of the wikilink constitutes some fundamental attack on Christianity. Their personal attack in the discussion below is quite odd too. My removal of the underscore from the link was made a few hours after their initial complaint and was entirely incidental cleanup.—Jeffro77 (talk) 11:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Did you realise it is possible to Google-search for questions about Witness's believe. Select sources at: WOL.JW.ORG and find out what they believe from them, not those who hate them.
- The Witnesses not 'fooled', but are kind, happy people.
- Folks owe it to themselves to search for truth, and avoid hate talk. OzarkJohnny (talk) 15:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- You don't seem to be suggesting any change to the article. Aside from that, I could also ask the (hypothetical) creepy guy who drives his van around schools to find out what he says about himself too. So why should people restrict themselves only to your preferred denomination's website rather than get a third-party perspective?--Jeffro77 Talk 01:52, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Discussion copied from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion#Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs
I can't believe that after all this time there is bias in these articles and twisting of the facts and truth. I start reading and right in the second paragraph some one has added a note about some dissemination of some news. This isn't some news that no one else is talking about that can be glossed over like that. There are bible translations out there that use the very phrase " The Good News" because it refers to The Gospel, that every Christian denomination refers to. So I changed it to what it should be and even added and internal link to the article for "The Gospel" which says in the first line, also referred to as "The Good News." These are the diffs. And I am worried that this twisting of the facts by omission is shows a glaring bias. And I request that it be observed for a period, placed on a watch list, or whatever is official done at this project. Thank you. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 06:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- It seems as though you may be over-reacting. You added a wikilink to the article, which was uncontested. It is not clear how the previous absence of that one wikilink indicates any 'twisting of facts', nor is it clear what other 'glaring bias' you're alluding to. You have not attempted to engage anyone at the article's Talk page regarding your concerns.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- There he is, the man himself. I would want a second opinion on absolutely anything you have to say. As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern. I'm glad you're here to minimize that point, which also vindicates my concern. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- And if the hypothetical boogeyman you've invented shows up, you can discuss their objections on the article's Talk page. The absence of a single wikilink that was overlooked because the context was already clear is not the conspiracy you imagine it to be. Apart from your pointless rhetoric here, there is no problem at all with the change you made to the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:00, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- The term "good news", without a wikilink, was first introduced into the text of the original article Beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses by AuthorityTam (talk · contribs), a pro-JW editor, on 2 April 2009. Elements of the subject relating to beliefs were split to Beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses on 14 August 2010, with the same wording retained, and the article was renamed Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs later the same day. The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'.
- If you have any legitimate concerns of bias to discuss regarding the article, please start a section at the article's Talk page.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:42, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I have reviewed every change made to the lead of the article in question. Apart from occasional section or page blanking by vandals (some being JW supporters trying to redirect traffic to the denomination's website), the only change made to the term "good news" in the lead was one removal of the quotations marks around the term on 23 December 2014, which was reverted the same day. But if the IP editor won't take my word for it, they are welcome to review the history of the article themselves and point out any instance where the absent wikilink was supposedly added and then removed due to some imagined 'bias'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:47, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- As I've already said, when I came across the article, the term "The Good News" (as a reference to Gospel's purpose, of every Christian denomination) was NOT there. What was there was written as some diminished less maybe local joke of a new, which is a smear and a slight on this religion. No proverbial wheelbarrel full of distraction you bring into this can change that. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- More than happy to hear whether other contributors here, or at the article’s Talk page where you should have raised your objection, agree with your novel reasoning on this matter.—Jeffro77 (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- I would also add that Jehovah's Witnesses do not capitalise the term "good news" (even when referring to the gospel). Additionally, the original editor who added the term included an extended quotation (which is still present 12 years later) in the supporting citation showing the use of "good news" explicitly in the context of Christian "proselytizing" (and the cited source explicitly explains that no negative connotation of the term "proselytize" is meant). The wikilink that has been added (which the IP editor imagines will be attacked for some bizarre reason) is entirely appropriate, but its absence was by no stretch of the imagination any attempt at 'smearing Christianity'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- As I've already said, when I came across the article, the term "The Good News" (as a reference to Gospel's purpose, of every Christian denomination) was NOT there. What was there was written as some diminished less maybe local joke of a new, which is a smear and a slight on this religion. No proverbial wheelbarrel full of distraction you bring into this can change that. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
- There he is, the man himself. I would want a second opinion on absolutely anything you have to say. As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern. I'm glad you're here to minimize that point, which also vindicates my concern. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 16:46, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
(1) "smearing Christianity" is not what I wrote, either you don't understand my point, you are pretending not to understand my point, or just twisting my words right in plain sight.
(2) "posted on a semi-retired user's talk page" is relevant only if you ignore that all those names are still on the project participant list.
24.78.228.96 (talk) 11:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Your exact words were “smear and a slight on this religion” and paraphrasing as ‘smearing Christianity’ is accurate. (Jehovah's Witnesses is a denomination of Christianity which is a religion. I am not responsible for your possible misuse of the terms.) I’m not interested in childish semantic debates. It remains the case that your accusations and personal attacks are entirely unfounded. If you have any legitimate concerns of bias in the article, present them.Jeffro77 (talk) 11:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- User:Jeffro77, You are false, and your accusation of semantics is false, I wrote my statement on the "Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs" page not the "Christianity" page, so you paraphrasing is exactly what I called it, "twisting my words." If I'm writing "this religion" on a Jehovah's Witness talkpage, you can't reinterpret it as all of Christianity, that's your falsehood not my semantics. You've managed to double down on your tunnel vision this time, the first time was not bothering to note that any old news is not the Good News. 24.78.228.96 (talk)
- This entire ‘dispute’ exists only in your own mind. I already indicated in a previous response to your unfounded personal attack that the context of the ‘good news’ in the article was clearly in reference to ‘the gospel’ and not ‘news’ generically. I’m sorry that you’re so disheartened by the absence of a wikilink that someone other than me failed to add when they made a change 12 years ago, but unless you can provide me with a time machine, there is nothing I can do about it. Just calm down.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- I hadn't realised that you had sent out a Group Notice when I saw your change from the 'Recent Changes' list. Due to the large edit size and the summary only being 'gn' it looked suspiciously like vandalism. I caution you that you must assume good faith WP:GF, we are not trying to silence you or twist your words, we are confused as to your actions. Your edit still stands, the link still works, please explain what the problem is more clearly.
- Side-note:
- If you're looking to get more involved with a religion wikiproject then I recommend WP:X or WP:RELI as they are much more active and not listed as 'Defunct'. You can continue to contribute towards WP:NPOV and help reduce bias while being in a more active environment. I also recommend that you create an account, this is so your edits are tied to a single source as IP addresses for editors often change. Learn more about why creating an account is helpful at WP:LOGIN.
- Jthekid15 (talk) 12:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- User:Jeffro77, You are false, and your accusation of semantics is false, I wrote my statement on the "Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs" page not the "Christianity" page, so you paraphrasing is exactly what I called it, "twisting my words." If I'm writing "this religion" on a Jehovah's Witness talkpage, you can't reinterpret it as all of Christianity, that's your falsehood not my semantics. You've managed to double down on your tunnel vision this time, the first time was not bothering to note that any old news is not the Good News. 24.78.228.96 (talk)
RfC about conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage
No content dispute, no actionable result.Twelve years ago an editor wrote disseminating "good news". An IP editor changed it to disseminating "the good news". They made various allegations of deception/bias, and asserted that their edit would be opposed. There is apparently unanimous agreement that the edit is an improvement, and there is thus no content dispute here. An RFC to request to "review of the conduct" on a talk page is inappropriate. Conduct issues may be raised at WP:ANI. However the IP editor should be aware that there appears to be unanimous agreement of five editors (including myself) that the only conduct issue here was the assumption and assertion of deception/bias/conflict by the IP editor. Any conduct complaints at WP:ANI or elsewhere are likely to reach the same conclusion. I advise them to review our conduct guideline: WP:Assume good faith. Alsee (talk) 08:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I would like a review of the conduct at this Religious Article's talkpage?
The policy tag is there for a broader more neutral request
in this spirit of this project where things started. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Concerned: My request is vindicated by false accusations, such as "vandalism" for messaging project members. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- I have (briefly) reviewed the conduct on the article, as well as on this, its talk page, of the IP user 24.78.228.96, and at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion. I did all this solely because I saw an RfC notice here. My assessment is that nothing terrible has happened, except that 24.78.228.96 appears to be unduly incensed that a two-word phrase was never linked to a WP target page. 24.78.228.96 added the link, addressing the situation, causing no complaints or negative reactions by anybody on the planet, and still: 24.78.228.96 has fussed, complained, argued, sneered at or even attacked another user and started an (IMO) unnecessary RfC.My advice would be for IP user 24.78.228.96 to calm down, maybe even take a short break, then look over their actions and try to see that what we've got here is a whole lot of overreaction by an IP user, and a whole lot of calm discipline on the part of the other (logged-in) editors. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 22:46, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- I too have (slightly more than briefly, but not in-depth) looked at this conversation (as far as I can follow it). There is no actual problem to look at, despite the fact that the IP is requesting someone look at it. The edit is still in (a wiki-link of all things), and was never challenged. It appears their complaint is that it wasn't wiki-linked already. Jeffro clearly explained that it was simply an oversight when the edits to the page were originally made ("The context of the statement apparently seemed obvious to the editor who added the phrase and subsequent editors. At no point was a wikilink added to the term in question and then subsequently removed due to any supposed 'bias'."). The IP appears to be wanting an RFC because they THINK that something that hasn't occurred (the removal of their wiki-link) will occur at some point ("As I wrote, I expect an attempt to be made to wipe away the internal link I added. The fact that I had to make that edit to the wording after all this time is a real concern."). This appears to be completely pointless on every level.
- One final note on the "attack" that can be seen via the link in JohnFromPinckney's above post: I do not believe it rises to the level of an actual attack. Declaring that you would want a second opinion because you don't trust the first person's is certainly rude and childish, but does not constitute an attack IMO. Unless there is another more blatant personal attack that the IP has done elsewhere that I have missed, I say we simply dismiss the RFC. Vyselink (talk) 00:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- It was a personal attack, as the wording was specifically targeted at me rather than a general statement about wanting a second opinion, though the specific motivation is unclear. However, the attack is trivial and as it is unlikely the editor will apologise, it can simply be ignored at this point unless the behaviour continues.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - aside from spamming the former participants of the defunct WikiProject indicated previously (causing some degree of confusion, including but not limited to another editor initially thinking the group message might have been vandalism), the anonymous IP is continuing to canvas for support of this RFC, though it is not clear what the editor is actually expecting to achieve.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:48, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- Clarifying. Since I keep being misquoted. I originally was concerned with the wording of "a good news" (insinuating some other) since this is not a new article, there seemed to me to be bias in that it was left incorrectly worded (for so long) to suggest something it is not, in a lead paragraph no less. "a good news" is a different thing as "The Good News AKA the Gospel" and the minimizing struck me as an ugly dangerous bias. My concern about the correction of "a good news" (not the internal link) being reverted is only cautionary and the internal link is not the main concern I first raise, that has lead to these processes. All along the way though, User:Jeffro77 has twisted what I had to say to suite his purposes: Taking what I had to say at the Project against religious bias away from that context, and then attacking me for referring to that context, by calling me a spammer for messaging members of that project, is to me good evidence of acting on bias. Saying I am referring to all of Christianity when I am talking about "this religion" on the "Jehovah's Witness beliefs" talkpage is another example of his twisting my words. User:Jeffro77 immediately misquoted me when her first saw that I was talking about the wording of the second lead paragraph, and started instead referring to the link I had added to take attention away from my actual concern, and everyone that has followed has critisized me for what he claims is my concern, not what I actually wrote at Project against religious bias. I was not aware that the projects was left behind when I first went looking for the correct channel to complain about the bias in the lead paragraph. But having found that resource I tried to make full use of it. If User:Jeffro77 hadn't been taking me out of context and twisting what I had to say from the start this would not have escalated to where it is, because this behaviour served only to fuel my concerns about bias in this/these articles. Left in the context of concern for bias, if you look at it from the start, he has reveal himself through his edits here. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- 1. The article never said “a good news”, and no one has complained about your change to the article. The context was already evident from the supporting citation, but the introduction of “the” was an improvement. As with the wikilink, it is not the case that the word “the” was ever previously added and then subsequently removed from the phrase, due to alleged bias or for any other reason, since the term “good news” was added in 2009. Despite your false accusations that I have deliberately misquoted or misrepresented your intentions, you did initially only add the wikilink, and it was a few minutes later that you added "the", so it is not clear how I was expected to know your primary concern. I repeatedly said very clearly that there was no problem with your change. JW literature does not capitalise the term “good news” (even when referring to the gospel). (Also, various mainstream Bibles, including the "Good News Translation", contain the rendering "good news" without "the" at Luke 4:18. Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation also has "good news" without "the" at that verse along with Luke 3:18; and 16:16.)
- 2. I am in no way responsible for the wording chosen by another editor (and a supporter of the denomination in question) 12 years ago.
- 3. The WikiProject you posted on was labelled as defunct in 2012. Everything you said at that page was copied to this page, with full context and clearly indicated as being moved from that page.
- 4. Jehovah’s Witnesses is a denomination and Christianity is a religion. Your misuse of the terms is not my responsibility.
- 5. You started this entire train wreck by crying out ‘bias’ over an edit you made that no one complained about. If you had just made the change and left it at that, reviewers such as myself would have casually thought, “oh, yeah, that’s better” and enjoyed the rest of our day.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
- "Disseminating good news" is a deceptive minimizing spin on what they do, because it suggests something other than "The Gospel," AKA the Christian Good News. You will never get me to agree to anything different from that statement. Having accepted that it is deceptive, the bias is clear. You will never get met to agree to anything different from that either. There is no point in arguing with you, you just don't want to see it. 24.78.228.96 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 09:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- At this point, I don't really care if you 'agree'. You made an edit that was uncontested, and your opinion of me is irrelevant. If you have any actual concerns with article content, present those concerns. Otherwise, just go away. If you continue with any irrelevant personal attacks, you will be reported to admins.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- The previous wording that you insist is ‘biased’ was added by a pro-JW editor 12 years ago, so you ordinarily would need to take up your concerns with that editor. But the editor hasn’t been active for several years, so I guess you can just relax.—Jeffro77 (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Note: I have removed the RfC tag, as the topic raised by the OP is entirely unsuitable as subject matter for an RfC: RfCs are intended to be used solely to solicit feedback regarding content matters, not behavioural issues and disputes--the RfC/U process was retired by the community seven years ago for exactly this reason. Since there is no live editorial dispute identified in this "RfC" prompt, let alone a narrowly defined one with a specific proposal/solution to !vote on or otherwise engage with to the benefit of the article, this entire discussion is not only not appropriate to the process, it really ought to be hatted. I suggest that if the OP still has concerns about the conduct of other editors here, they have the option to use WP:ANI or another appropriate forum for reporting behavioural issues. Although, frankly, viewing just as much of the exchange here as regards this thread and the related dispute, I would not necessarily recommend it as I think a WP:BOOMERANG block for a combination of disruption and CIR concerns would be the most likely outcome. In short, 24.78.228.96, I would take your win on the content issue (which if I am reading the forgoing discussion correctly, was not even being blocked with regard to your preferred approach) and walk with it. Snow 12:33, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Summary of my edits
I'm thankful for everyone who took the time to explain the technicalities of Misplaced Pages. My intentions were never to buck the system or to misuse what I know. There used to exist an entire project dedicated to correcting the bias that crept into articles on religion here because there were contentious disagreements about how religion articles should be written on specific denominations because people with bias could hide behind user IDs and pretend to be in favour of improving an article while they sabotaged it with their edits. So when I read in the intro that this denominations activities were being minimized, "some news" which could mean anything rather than the Christian gospel "good news," I was struck with how what they do was being misrepresented, and I looked for help where ever I could, because it surprised me that this false bit of information and misrepresentation had been in the introduction of the article for so long, for 12 years it turns out. Whether it was added by a real JW or a false JW 12 years ago who can know. But my RfC was not about user conduct specifically. My point is the single most important bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented for a very long time, right in the introduction, and who knows how many other JW articles have this kind of sabotage in them? You can see from the above discussion that I tried to highlight that it was a concern for me, and it was just brushed under the carpet. My edit wasn't just adding an internal link, my edit wasn't just a small rewording, an addition of an internal link which had yet to be contested, but that I had to make it in the first place after 12 years. If you don't care about the correctness of the information in the article then it wouldn't matter to you that it had been wrong for 12 or so years. But the point is that all of Christianity revolves around "the good news" (AKA The Gospel) and if you take that away from Jehovah's Witnesses you're sabotaging their place as a Christian denomination, their place as Christians and Christianity. And that this article was misrepresenting an entire denomination's prime doctrine for 12 or so years, is a shame on this encyclopedia. Technically what I did may have been the wrong approach, backwards approach, but the record now exists of how my intention was received and how my points were minimized and/or twisted. Like saying it was "just a link" (paraphrase, see above) is taking what I wrote out of context by ignoring the other half. So I am thankful that this record exists, I'm sorry I'm not perfectly fluent in Misplaced Pages syntax & procedure, but I have no doubt in this case that the ends justifies the means. 24.78.228.96 (talk) 12:01, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
- You're still complaining about a perceived problem over the inclusion of a link and one word, which has already been addressed. There is no actionable request here. Just to be clear, your claim that "the single most important bit of teaching/doctrine of this denomination had been misrepresented" is completely false, as the source added 12 years ago included a quote stating very clearly that the "good news" refers to the Christian 'gospel' and not some vague general sense. Perhaps, if you imagine there to be some broad problem with the way the denomination is presented in Misplaced Pages, you could focus on what you imagine to be the most serious concern rather than this ultimately mundane oversight that has already been corrected.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:32, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused here. JWs would deny that their organization is a denomination of Christianity, as they believe they are the only Christians in the universe. What most people call "Christianity" they would denounce as demonic. And they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion. 2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, it doesn't matter that JWs don't consider other Christian denominations to be 'real Christians', for the same reason that it doesn't matter that some other Christians don't consider JWs to be 'real Christians'. Your statement that "they would deny that their belief system constitutes a religion" is simply false.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:13, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
God's throne in the Pleiades
This used to be taught - should it be mentioned? I don't think it has ever been officially denied. https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/34882/our-father-who-art-pleiades --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:28EF:2259:6821:F44A (talk) 00:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- No. A) It's a very old teaching that wasn't particularly prevalent or highlighted even when it was taught. And B) the website you gave literally denies it in the quote from the 1953 WT. Vyselink (talk) 00:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It certainly isn't noteworthy in the scope of their current beliefs. However, I have added it at Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)