Revision as of 04:23, 10 September 2010 editLibiBamizrach (talk | contribs)324 edits →On the "conspiracy theory" category← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 01:42, 17 November 2024 edit undo750h+ (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers15,670 editsNo edit summary |
(288 intermediate revisions by 73 users not shown) |
Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
|
{{Talk header|search=yes|arpol=yes|disclaimer=no}} |
|
{{skiptotoctalk}} |
|
|
|
{{Article history|action1=FAC |
|
{{ArticleHistory |
|
|
|action1=FAC |
|
|
|action1date=22:13, 25 January 2010 |
|
|action1date=22:13, 25 January 2010 |
|
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Muhammad al-Durrah incident/archive1 |
|
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Muhammad al-Durrah incident/archive1 |
Line 7: |
Line 6: |
|
|action1oldid=340010517 |
|
|action1oldid=340010517 |
|
|currentstatus=FA |
|
|currentstatus=FA |
|
|
|maindate=30 September 2021 |
|
|
|otd1date=2023-09-30|otd1oldid=1177788526 |
|
|
|otd2date=2024-09-30|otd2oldid=1248563600 |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=FA|living=no|listas=Al-Durrah, Muhammad|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
{{NOINDEX}} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Palestine|importance=Mid|class=FA}} |
|
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Israel|importance=low|class=FA}} |
|
{{WikiProject Biography}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Photography|history=yes|importance=low}} |
|
{{WPBiography|living=no|class=FA|priority=Low|listas=Al-Durrah, Muhammad}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject HOP|class=FA}} |
|
{{WikiProject Journalism|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Media|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject France|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views}} |
|
|
{{WPMH|Middle-Eastern=y|Asian=y|Post-Cold-War=y}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{IP sanctions}} |
|
{{Not censored}} |
|
|
{{ARBPIA}} |
|
|
{{Notable citation|Goldman, Lisa. , ''+972'', October 11, 2010.}} |
|
|
{{tmbox|text=Sources for the development of this article can be found at ].}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 250K |
|
|
|counter = 14 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|
|algo = old(92d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{Press |
|
|
| subject = page |
|
|
| author = Phyllis Chesler |
|
|
| title = Palestinian Lies Never Die; Misplaced Pages and Google Keep Them Alive |
|
|
| org = ] |
|
|
| url = https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/04/27/palestinian-lies-never-die-wikipedia-and-google-keep-them-alive/ |
|
|
| date = 2020-04-27 |
|
|
| quote = Although Google continues to automatically link to Misplaced Pages, it eventually included the fact that a controversy about what happened to al-Dura actually exists. However, the controversy section appears at the very end of the Misplaced Pages entry, long after the false narrative has had its way with most readers. |
|
|
| archiveurl = |
|
|
| archivedate = |
|
|
| accessdate = 2020-04-29 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| subject2 = article |
|
'''Note''': |
|
|
|
| author2 = Omer Benjakob |
|
Because this is a featured article about a complex and sensitive issue, before making a substantive change to it —one that might reasonably attract an objection—please consider doing the following: |
|
|
|
| title2 = The Second Intifada Still Rages on Misplaced Pages |
|
|
| org2 = ] |
|
|
| url2 = https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-second-intifada-still-rages-on-wikipedia-1.9201705?lts=1601639306928 |
|
|
| date2 = 2020-10-01 |
|
|
| quote2 = As the debate swelled, it was decided that the entire Muhammad al-Durrah incident would be afforded an article of its own – a common solution on Misplaced Pages, meant to quell the growth of contentious articles. |
|
|
| archiveurl2 = |
|
|
| archivedate2 = |
|
|
| accessdate2 = 2020-10-02 |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{tmbox |
|
|
| type = notice |
|
|
| style = background: #DFE8FF; |
|
|
| text = As this is a featured article about a complex and sensitive issue, before making a substantive change to it—one that might reasonably attract an objection—please consider doing the following: |
|
#Post the proposed edit on this talk page as you would like to make it, and say where in the article you're proposing to place it. |
|
#Post the proposed edit on this talk page as you would like to make it, and say where in the article you're proposing to place it. |
|
#Post details of the source (name, title, publication, date, page number if appropriate), and if it's offline, type up here what it says. Consider posting what the source says even if it's online. |
|
#Post details of the source (name, title, publication, date, page number if appropriate), and if it's offline, type up here what it says. Consider posting what the source says even if it's online. |
Line 26: |
Line 68: |
|
#Open each of your suggestions in a new section. |
|
#Open each of your suggestions in a new section. |
|
#If a change you make is reverted, please do not restore it unless there is a clear consensus in support of it. |
|
#If a change you make is reverted, please do not restore it unless there is a clear consensus in support of it. |
|
|
|
|
Please keep your proposals and any responses succinct. Many thanks. |
|
Please keep your proposals and any responses succinct. Many thanks. |
|
*] |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|
|maxarchivesize = 140K |
|
|
|counter = 14 |
|
|
|minthreadsleft = 2 |
|
|
|algo = old(90d) |
|
|
|archive = Talk:Muhammad al-Durrah incident/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
{{Annual readership}} |
|
{{archives|search=yes|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90}} |
|
|
|
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article tools|1=Muhammad al-Durrah incident}} |
|
|
|
|
|
==Wording of the third paragraph== |
|
|
Some of the wording in the third paragraph is a bit off. |
|
|
<BLOCKQUOTE>"Over the months and years that followed, commentators questioned the accuracy of France 2's report."</BLOCKQUOTE> |
|
|
Doesn't this kind of sound like a trend? Like a lot of people didn't question it at first but then started questioning it, and that opinions decidedly changed after this? Especially as the first sentence of the lead's longest paragraph, this sets the tone.</br> |
|
|
<BLOCKQUOTE>"French journalists who saw the raw footage confirmed that France 2 had cut a final few seconds in which Muhammad appeared to lift his hand from his face; they acknowledged that he had died, but said the footage alone did not show it. France 2's news editor said in 2005 that no one could be sure who fired the shots."</BLOCKQUOTE> |
|
|
I don't understand how this could be taken from the source provided. That article is about how frustrated people from Channel 2 were that every time they address a rumor or accusation and disprove it, another one pops up. The full quote is this: "Every time we address one question, then another question surfaces. It's very difficult to fight a rumor. The point is that four years later, no one can say for certain who killed him, Palestinians or Israelis." In context, this specific part of the quote is more ambiguous than it would be on its own and should probably not be attributed to them in a way that makes it sound official or "Channel 2's view". In any case, while it is still not agreed upon what killed him, the "staged" argument is pretty groundless. In light of the circumstances it should really be handled more carefully than it is now. It reeks of those reports about people saying ] was "staged" and the kids are still alive. Since there's no way to disprove such rumours, don't expect these theories to ever be refuted. Media reported on it as they do with many fringe theories without necessarily endorsing them, but that doesn't mean it should be featured in the lead along with the main view. By the way: |
|
|
<BLOCKQUOTE>"Postage stamps in the Middle East carried the images; one of the images was visible in the background when Daniel Pearl, a Jewish-American journalist, was beheaded by al-Qaeda in 2002."</BLOCKQUOTE> |
|
|
Unless it's just me who can't find any prominent media attention for this... ]? ] (]) 00:39, 28 January 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Requested move 2 October 2020 == |
|
__TOC__ |
|
|
|
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
|
|
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. '' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
The result of the move request was: '''Page moved'''. <small>(])</small> ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 12:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
== Take away "Featured Article" == |
|
|
|
---- |
|
|
|
|
|
This article, from the first sentence, reads like propaganda. |
|
|
It should never have been granted "Featured Article" status. |
|
|
Mohammed al-Durrah was just one of at least 16 Palestinians killed in the first two days of an attack by Israel on civilians under their occupation. Nobody suggests the child was rioting, so "on the second day of the Second Intifada, amid widespread rioting throughout the Palestinian territories" is a deliberate distortion of his situation, including material that is completely irrelevant. No Israeli citizens in Israel were killed until November (B'tselem suggests 4 killed themselves in a booby-trapped car?) so the first retaliatory murder of murder may not have been until February of the following year. By which time over 300 Palestinians had been killed. Mohammed al-Durrah deserves a much fairer article, written by neutral outsiders not by anybody involved. ] (]) 18:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
:Do you have a specific proposal for a change, or is this just a rant? ] (]) 18:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
::Take out the POV phrases "widespread rioting throughout the Palestinian territories" in which MaD had no part. Then take out "caught in crossfire between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian security forces" for which there is no evidence offered. Take out "The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) accepted responsibility within three days" which is meaningless and looks like propaganda. No person neutral in regard to parties in this incident could possibly have ended up writing a version which reads so badly. Take away the "Featured article" status, which is undeserved. ] (]) 21:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
] → {{no redirect|Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah}} – Since the boy was killed, this is the proper title. ] (]) 02:35, 2 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
== More press distortions == |
|
|
|
<small>—'''''Relisting.''''' ] <small>(please ] on reply)</small> 11:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)</small> |
|
|
*'''Neutral''' on moving the article's main title header to ], but would '''support''' move to ]. This article appears under ], where the majority of entries use the form "Shooting of..." Even if there is no consensus that Muhammad al-Durrah was killed by shots fired by members of law enforcement, there is agreement that his death was caused by gunfire. —] <small>] • ]</small> 03:33, 2 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
:: I'm fine with that. Other voters: feel free to indicate whether you prefer killing of or shooting of. ] (]) 11:36, 2 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support move to ]''', a more typical formulation that has less of an implication of intent. —] (]) 22:43, 2 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' this request, YES, the boy was killed by the Israeli Occupation Forces.--] (]) 18:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Strong oppose''' per ]. The event is most commonly known as "Muhammad al-Durrah incident" and the article should stay at that title. (] · ]) ''']''' 01:37, 9 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' - I would prefer this page just be titled "Muhammad al-Durrah", but the proposed "]" is better than the current "]". Looking at Google books, ngrams, scholar, news, and web, I cannot find evidence that "Muhammad al-Durrah incident" is the common name, or even a common name, for this. I can find almost no examples in RSes, and those that I can find seem to be the product of ] originating in this article. "Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah" seems equally as prevalent, and I think it's a better choice than "incident", based on other "Killing of..." article titles for articles about homicides. "Incident" obscures what it is, and is euphemistic. However, I'm persuadable if there is evidence of common name. I notified ] and ] of this RM. I oppose "Shooting of" for reasons detailed at the concurrent discussion at ] (from whence I came). ]]] 05:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
*'''Support''' – No evidence the current title is the clear COMMONNAME. Looking through GBooks, it appears both "Death of ..." and "Killing of ..." are more prevalent. I can't tell which of the two is more common. As an apparent homicide with video footage to confirm, this is should be titled as ''']'''. --- ]&]]) 17:04, 15 October 2020 (UTC) |
|
|
---- |
|
|
: ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] --> |
|
|
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== "may not have been shot at all" == |
|
I notice that some English-language sources are claiming that a French court has recently ruled that the al Durrah case was "a hoax". However, this is just more of the distortion and flat-out lying that has characterised English-language reporting of Karsenty's litigation. AFP, which is where this story came from, is reporting nothing of the sort, as a look at demonstrates. I've created a separate section for this litigation - it's separate from the still-ongoing France 2 case - sourced to the French-language reporting. We need to be careful, as with the France 2 litigation, to follow the most reliable sources on this - the French media - rather than the ludicrously distorted accounts that have been propagated by English-language sources. -- ] (]) 18:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
:Ummmm... Ok. Do you have a suggestion for some kind of change or are you soapboxing? ] (]) 19:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
::Sorry, should have provided a link: -- ] (]) 19:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I looked at your recent edit, and largely agree with it. Rereading this article, I don't understand why there is so much content about the "Philippe Karsenty litigation". This could probably be summarized and forked (if it even passes notability), especially considering the fact that this article is too long. |
|
|
:::Additionally, I'm a little concerned by tidbits like "The court heard that the boy put his hand to his forehad and moved his leg, after the cameraman had said he was dead, and that there was no blood on the boy's shirt". This sorta misrepresents the source and facts and really ought to be removed. ] (]) 20:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I'm sure you're right - go for it. -- ] (]) 20:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Does anyone else feel the utter absurdity of the Israeli government conclusion that Muhammad al-Durrah may not have been shot, despite images of his corpse, his funeral, and examination of his corpse by doctors? I find his father's is quite apt: "Israel says my son isn't dead. He's not dead? Then bring him to me."''']''' <sub>(Please ] on reply)</sub> 20:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC) |
|
== On the "conspiracy theory" category == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:I agree. Per ], "<i>Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence</i>". Therefore they ought to be able to present the living boy if they are claiming their well documented death was a hoax. Otherwise the claims look no better than ] pushed by ] et. al. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
Does anyone else feel the "conspiracy theory" category here is inappropriate? It seems to me that the conspiracy theories that might exist around this event constitute ]. Similar to the whole "Elvis was taken by aliens" thing. Is it even worth categorizing it as a real conspiracy theory? ] (]) 00:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
:Not sure but for comparison ] isn't in that category despite there being an entire ] article (which is in a related category). <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 02:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
Arent conspiracy theories almost always fringe? // ] (]) |
|
|
:@] - To a certain point I agree. But some conspiracy theories are "more fringe" than others. For example, many people believe JFK's assassination was a conspiracy. Not many people believe the emergence of AIDs was a conspiracy to keep gay people down. The latter seems more "fringe" and less ] than the former. ] (]) 13:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
::I agree that the inclusion of that cat is inappropriate. I remain concerned by the weight given to Karentsky in this article. His thesis and the court battles tha ensued should be covered in a spin off article and summarized here. The main story was the boy's death and not Karentsky complaints about Charles Enderlin's reporting. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I'd agree ]. Unfortunately, when I've tried to make significant edits in the paste, there's been an army of editors cropping up shouting "It's a featured article. You can't change a featured article.". ] (]) 14:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
|
Yes, moving out the conspiracy theories to their own article is something I have suggested in the past, but it has never managed to get accepted. // ] (]) |
|
|
**Like someone says above all conspiracy theories are fringe theories this is a silly argument to say that the category must go because it is fringe. Of course it is, that is what a conspiracy theory is. It should definitely stay this is a good example and helps people navigate on wikipedia. ] (]) 04:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC) |
|
Some of the wording in the third paragraph is a bit off.
Doesn't this kind of sound like a trend? Like a lot of people didn't question it at first but then started questioning it, and that opinions decidedly changed after this? Especially as the first sentence of the lead's longest paragraph, this sets the tone.
I don't understand how this could be taken from the source provided. That article is about how frustrated people from Channel 2 were that every time they address a rumor or accusation and disprove it, another one pops up. The full quote is this: "Every time we address one question, then another question surfaces. It's very difficult to fight a rumor. The point is that four years later, no one can say for certain who killed him, Palestinians or Israelis." In context, this specific part of the quote is more ambiguous than it would be on its own and should probably not be attributed to them in a way that makes it sound official or "Channel 2's view". In any case, while it is still not agreed upon what killed him, the "staged" argument is pretty groundless. In light of the circumstances it should really be handled more carefully than it is now. It reeks of those reports about people saying Sandy Hook was "staged" and the kids are still alive. Since there's no way to disprove such rumours, don't expect these theories to ever be refuted. Media reported on it as they do with many fringe theories without necessarily endorsing them, but that doesn't mean it should be featured in the lead along with the main view. By the way:
Does anyone else feel the utter absurdity of the Israeli government conclusion that Muhammad al-Durrah may not have been shot, despite images of his corpse, his funeral, and examination of his corpse by doctors? I find his father's reaction is quite apt: "Israel says my son isn't dead. He's not dead? Then bring him to me."VR (Please ping on reply) 20:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)