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== Request for clarification: ] ==
'''Initiated by ''' ] (]) '''at''' 21:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


<includeonly>= ] =</includeonly><noinclude>{{If mobile||{{Fake heading|sub=1|Requests for clarification and amendment}}}}</noinclude>
''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
{{Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment/Header}}
*{{admin|Looie496}} (initiator)
<noinclude>{{-}}</noinclude>
*{{userlinks|Ferahgo the Assassin}}
]
*{{userlinks|Mathsci}}
]
*{{userlinks|WeijiBaikeBianji}}

=== Statement by Looie496 ===
This arises from ], filed by Ferahgo the Assassin, who is currently subject to a topic ban in the R&I domain. I believe that the AE request is an attempt to lawyer around the topic ban, but other admins are divided on this, hence this request for clarification. To keep this simple, I would like to propose that ArbCom endorse the following statement: ''"An editor subject to a topic ban imposed by ArbCom or resulting from ArbCom discretionary sanctions may only file arbitration enforcement requests that fall into the domain of the topic ban, or comment on such requests, if there is a reasonable possibility that a resulting enforcement action will directly affect that editor."'' Such a statement would disallow this enforcement request, and it would also disallow the comments that Mathsci has made in the request. Note that the statement as framed would have a scope that goes beyond the R&I case.

=== Statement by WeijiBaikeBianji ===

Thanks to Looie496 for raising this issue and for the notice of this request to my talk page. One observation about the policy behind this request is that decisions in cases should generally allow for certainty of disposition and for repose of persons who were not parties to the case. (I have legal training and was once a judicial clerk for an appellate court and then a lawyer in private practice, so these sorts of policy considerations come to mind.) I certainly acknowledge the wikipedian's privilege of any other editor to ask me questions about my editing behavior and especially to insist that my edits and '''all''' article edits be verifiable and neutral in point of view. But once an editor is under a topic ban, it seems to me that there has already been a finding that that editor (we hope only temporarily) is misunderstanding what proper sourcing is or what neutral point of view is, so it seems best to hear primarily from editors who are not under such bans about fresh editing disputes on the same topic. Arbiter Carcharoth has . It frustrates the purpose of the arbitration process to have content disputes continually relitigated in ArbCom rather than referred to article, user, and project talk pages for mutual discussion among editors who are not sanctioned. -- ] (]) 22:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*I don't think there's any need for such a sweeping statement. While this may have been a disappointing use of AE by Ferhago, we don't generally prohibit editors, even those that are topic banned, from reporting others; this would certainly invalidate a slew of the recent reports on AE. Whether or not a report is productive, useful or "necessary" can be left up to the discretion of the admins responding. Especially in cases where discretionary sanctions are active, prohibiting an editor from making reports (if they prove to be disruptive) is well within the realm of administrator discretion. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: ] ==
'''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 00:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Tony Sidaway}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|William M. Connolley}}
*{{userlinks|Polargeo 2}}
*{{userlinks|Thegoodlocust}}
*{{userlinks|Marknutley}}
*<s>{{userlinks|ChrisO}}</s> Has exercised right to vanish
*<s>{{userlinks|Minor4th}}</s> Has closed talk page and announced retirement
*{{userlinks|ATren}}
*{{userlinks|Hipocrite}}
*{{userlinks|Cla68}}
*{{userlinks|GregJackP}}
*{{userlinks|A Quest For Knowledge}}
*{{userlinks|Verbal}}
*{{userlinks|ZuluPapa5}}
*{{userlinks|JohnWBarber}}
*{{userlinks|FellGleaming}}

(All notifications linked above)

<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. Anyone else affected must be notified that the request has been filed,
immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. The line for username2 can be removed if no-one else is affected. -->

=== Statement by Tony Sidaway ===
The "Remedy 3" comprehensive topic bans are an important part of the case. As I understand it they are intended to give valuable editors a rest from the topic so that they can find ways of improving their collaborative skills and picking up once again the joy of editing.

But that isn't what's happening. I know the arbitrators are aware of the bickering and "toeing the line" that continues and some of them have opined on this . I won't go into my own abortive attempt to have this dealt with by the community, only to see it provide yet another forum for bickering by topic banned editors. Even this request is a gambit that may backfire, but I think arbcom and the clerks could deal with that.

At this point I think it would be useful to have arbitrators revisit this issue and clarify that behavior like this is unlikely to help Misplaced Pages and that it will be a consideration in any future appeal. This must sound obvious, but obvious it is not to some of these editors '''(though I hasten to add that most topic banned editors have not continued to obsess)'''. The Committee has spoken, but apparently not firmly enough for some editors. --] 00:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

This is a request for clarification, not an attempt to relegislate the arbitration. No evidence will be given or is required. Just a clarification. But as there is an ongoing case perhaps it might help to solidify the issue. --] 13:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Roger. I do feel quite strongly that an excess of "process" is what led to the polarization in the probation. That measure too was intended to strengthen the admin's discretion, but was quite quickly tamed into a discussion-heavy process that bred the warfare we still see cropping up even now. --] 20:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the enforcing admins are listening. Perhaps a new motion is needed. Misplaced Pages must make it plain to all that all topic banned editors, every single one, should just back away if the topic of climate change appears. They have nothing to gain from it, and Misplaced Pages has nothing to gain from it. Other Wikipedians exist. --] 01:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by uninvolved roux ===
I don't see why ArbCom needs to clarify anything here. A topicban is a topicban. That means '''stay away from the topic'''. If people are pushing the envelope, warn them, once. If they keep pushing the envelope, use the block mechanisms included in the decision. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;00:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)</small>

=== Statement by uninvolved Yopienso ===
I very much appreciate Tony's work toward creating a good working environment and his impartiality in dealing with William M. Connelley. William, however, persists in behavior he's been instructed to avoid. When Coren made a kind, constructive suggestion that he work on a maths page, William took offense. It seems he honestly doesn't get the point. Since it cannot be made more clear to him, he simply needs to be banned from the pages where he has been contentious in the past and from other related pages even if he has not caused trouble there. Posting comments on his talk page about points he disagrees with, whether or not he intends for watchers to run "fix" them, should be strictly prohibited.<br />
My understanding is that editors who refuse to comply with administrative decisions lose their accounts. It would be much better if William would accept correction and eventually be able to edit in those areas in which he is so knowledgeable and so passionately interested. --] (]) 06:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

: ''The following was addressed to Count Iblis and was originally posted as threaded discussion. --] 20:30, 24 October 2010 (UTC)''
:Before posting my uninvolved statement above, I deleted a comment saying that imo William should be allowed to snark to his heart's content on his own user page, and that while it reveals his attitude, if anyone finds it offensive they can simply stay away. I didn't post it because it disagrees with WP rules. I'm certainly not "against" him or wishing him any ill. His behavior, though, has been disruptive to the larger community.
:Wrt your statement, "Whether we like it or not, William's notifications on his talk page were necessary," I heartily disagree. First, as insinuated by others, you are confirming he was "editing" from what he and you consider a safe distance, while in actuality he was getting around a ban. More importantly, you are implying Misplaced Pages, at least in the CC area, cannot function without him. Even if he were a perfect editor, that would not be true. There may well be a temporary void now that so many editors were excluded, but the principle here is that after stress, equilibrium will be restored. WP articles never depend on one editor; that idea is contrary to our whole philosophy. --] (]) 20:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by involved TheGoodLocust ===

I'm not sure why TS bothered to inform me of this, but I'm been watching things a little bit and here are my observations.

1) ScienceApologist (who should have been topic banned) put up a message on his talk page basically offering to meat puppet for topic banned users - and he knew full well who would ask him. IRRC William Connolley availed himself of this offer.

2) William Connolley has posted at least two diffs on his talk page to get his talk page watchers to meatpuppet for him. Apparently he didn't like the fact that an editor called climate models "estimates." He then proceeded to strike out the diffs (i.e. "done") when his watchers had done his work for him.

3) William Connolley made an edit to a climate related article. Not a climate change article, but it seems to be a pattern with him to push the limits in order to provoke others.

I recommend that William Connolley's main account be banned so he can use the WMC account that was setup to prevent the watchpage temptation.

Cheers. ] (]) 00:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by previously involved LessHeard vanU ===
Is every single editor listed by TS involved in what I will term "envelope pushing"? If not, then it behooves TS (or another editor aware of such instances) to note who is doing so, and provide an example. Those who are not engaged in such practices should be shown good faith, assuming that they have taken ArbCom's comments to heart. Other editors, and here I agree with TS, may need a nudge or stronger from a Clerk. ] (]) 00:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by heavily involved Polargeo 2 ===
Remedy 3 encourages a battleground as did CC probation before it. I have argued right from the start that what is needed is a group of editors from differing views working together and encouraged to work together for their common goals, not banned by people who haven't got enough time to go into the intricacies of the case such as arbcom. ] (]) 10:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The more you force editors to take sides the more this turns into an Israel-Palestine situation. Now you may think this is the case already, but it is not, many editors have respondend positively to one another on many occasions, but distilled through the revenge culture that appears to be facilitated by arbcom this becomes a get your enemies blocked and score goals ]. It is sad that this is the case but it certainly is and will only be resolved when arbcom stops trying to force punitive resolutions and starts helping to get editors to work together. ] (]) 10:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

===Comment by Cla68===
It seems that much, if not all of WMC's entire Internet presence is centered on being an advocate the content of Misplaced Pages's CC articles (also check the comments to that post and WMC's responses to them). It's up to you guys on how to proceed from here, I offer no suggestions. ] (]) 12:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

===Comment by Count Iblis===
Whether we like it or not, William's notifications on his talk page were necessary. A day after Scibaby-like edits on a CC page that apparantly isn't checked out by many editors regularly, William put a link on his talk page. AWickert fixed the problem. Some time later a similar problem happened on the same page, and this time it was me who first fixed the problem after seeing William's notification (I didn't have that page on my watchlist). I later saw that the problem had persisted after that and that others were dealing with it. The page was ultimately protected.

Clearly, if William cannot place notifications on his talk page about these sorts of issues (we're not talking about engaging in disputes here), then we also have to make sure all CC pages (not just the most popular ones) are checked out on a regular basis. This would then help William to disengage entirely from the CC area here on Misplaced Pages.

''This reminds me of the eternal dispute between parents and their children as they grow up. Children want to topic ban their parents from parenting on ever more issues. The reactions to William's postings are in fact exactly of the same nature as that of the typical teenager who is caught doing something naughty his mother. Mother: "What is this! Are you smoking pot!? "Son: "Why do you always have to poke your nose in my private affairs, we had agreed you wouldn't do that!"'' ] (]) 15:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

===Comment by unindicted co-conspirator Short Brigade Harvester Boris===
Section 3.1 of the remedies states that editors topic-banned by the Committee are prohibited "from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles." Are the remarks here by topic-banned users ], ] and ] consistent with this prohibition? Or was it arbcom's intent that topic-banned editors may continue lobbying for sanctions against one another just as before? Clarification would be helpful. ] (]) 16:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

===Comment by MONGO===
Since Cla68 seems to think that we can/should be worried about what an editor is advocating off-wiki, then I suggest we also should have been worried about how Misplaced Pages Review has been used as a forum to arouse, collate, conspire and advocate for the attack on some of our editors on-wiki. I was angered by 9/11 conspiracy theory advocates using off-wiki forums to attack me or to plot on how to elminate the "official conspiracy theory" (meaning the "mainstream view") from our articles, but there was nothing I could do to stop it, nor did I assume that I could. So long as what goes on off-wiki is kept off-wiki and isn't something that would be brought here by a meatpuppet that would need to be oversighted due to various reasons, then what WMC posts elsewhere is surely beyond our control (it is anyhow). With that said, I encourage all topic banned editors to move on to new topics completely...but remind arbcom that it shouldn't be a surprise that there is going to be a lag time from when a decision is made and "defendents" move forward.--] 18:53, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Comment by TenOfAllTrades ===
The ArbCom appeared to be extremely explicit in defining the scope of the topic bans in this arbitration. Here is the exact wording, from the unanimously-approved ].

:3.1) Editors topic-banned by the Committee under this remedy are prohibited (1) from editing articles about Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (2) from editing biographies of living people associated with Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; and (3) from participating in any Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles.

::''Passed 7 to 0, 14:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)''

The bounds of this remedy are unusually clear. It appears that there are unsatisfied parties who wish to relitigate the arbitration to significantly widen a remedy less than two weeks after the case closed.

It should be noted that if there are editors who feel WMC should be further restricted from commenting &ndash; on his own talk page(?)(!) &ndash; about climate-change-related issues, then there are legitimate ways to go about it using the existing Arbitration remedies and framework. If WMC's conduct is deemed disruptive and he fails to respond to appropriate warnings, the case remedies permit uninvolved administrators to impose ]. ''However'', those remedies require WMC to be engaged in disruptive or damaging conduct &mdash; a condition that hasn't been met. So far, he has identified and intelligently commented on a couple of sources likely to be of relevance and interest to climate change editors, and he has flagged some suspicious article edits (which led to the identification and blocking of sockpuppets working through Tor nodes).

Shifting gears, one thing that this request (and the associated noticeboard discussions) ''has'' highlighted is the value to Wikipeda of imposing a mutual MYOB restriction on both WMC and Lar &mdash; there's nothing good that has ever or will ever come from letting them pick at each other. Once again, that is a remedy that ''can'' be imposed under the extant sanctions. ](]) 19:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

:Incidentally, I will note that the insertion of ZuluPapa5, Polargeo, Cla68, and Thegoodlocust into this request ''may'' be pushing the limits of ''their'' respective topic bans. (Cla68 has also seen fit to involve himself in a WP:AE request concerning Marknutley.) Is this page properly considered a 'Misplaced Pages process relating to those articles'? I also observe that most of the participants in this request for clarification &ndash; and in all the other little storms that have been ignited elsewhere &ndash; seem to be the same faces that were criticised or sanctioned in the CC arbitration (add Stephan Schulz to the other four editors I've identified, and note that Lar was the one who decided to open a can of worms about the decision's scope on the ArbCom Announcements talk page now that he is restricted from taking administrative action in this area). If we were to subtract all the players who were responsible for the battlefield of the Arbitration, is there actually anything left that needs to be done here? (That is, is there any ongoing harm to the project that would remain to be addressed?) The only reason, I suspect, that we keep seeing these new 'process' and 'clarification' requests is that these grizzled veterans can't find any other venue in which to keep poking at each other, and they are all restricted from directly seeking or applying sanctions on their own. ](]) 18:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

===Statement by Collect===

Perhaps the committee should consider a motion on the order of ''"The topic ban extends to the user pages of those named, and to posts concerning Climate Change or articles relating to Climate Change made on any other editor's user pages. Named editors are also reminded that discussing the Arbitration Committee decision regarding Climate Change, or seeking additional editors on the topic, outside Misplaced Pages may be regarded as violating the topic ban by any uninvolved administrator."'' Thus removing the "suggested edit" loophole once and for all, and making clear that posts outside Misplaced Pages which serve to maintain the topic at the boiling point are sufficiently contrary to the legitimate interests of the project that such acts may be considered in determining further bans on such editors. ] (]) 10:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

===Statement by ZuluPapa5 ===
I've been away (enjoying the refuge) from the topic and other editors, so can't comment on what's happening. However, knowing the battle game players, then coaching and clarifying specific cases of pushing the line might help before a full out site ban. ] (]) 18:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

*These articles may help guide the methods for dealing with a case of an abusive addict. ] and ] Prayers are about all I can offer, unless this case proceeds. ] (]) 18:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*I think it's common sense that in any appeal, we'd consider among other things whether the editor continued to engage in problematic behavior after the case was over. I would think that would go without saying, but since we've been asked, I'll say it. In particular, any continuation of bickering, name-calling, or other behavior of the types criticized in the decision should have stopped a long time ago, and certainly ought to stop now. (I am not opining on, or characterizing, anyone's specific behavior or comment; I hope it does not become necessary for the committee to do so.) ] (]) 02:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
*The decision spells out a number of things that the sanctioned editors ''must'' not do; there are a number of things beyond that which common sense dictates they ''should'' not do. Certainly, remaining engaged in the topic area by "suggesting" edits to do is about as bad as it can get without breaking the letter of the ruling. The ''point'' of the ruling is to get those editors to disengage. If they are unwilling or unable to do so, then we'll have no choice but to amend the decision to be more comprehensive and draconian for those editors. &mdash;&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup> 03:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
*In concurring with my colleagues, I restate that the purpose of the topic ban was not only to make editors disengage from the articles themselves but also to stamp out the interminable fires breaking out all over the encyclopedia. The discretionary sanctions regime in this case give administrators great leeway in restoring order and even gives guidance matching conduct to appropriate sanctions. These sanctions may be applied by any uninvolved administrators of their own volition, which means no prior process on any noticeboard is necessary. All that is required before an administrator acts is a "cease and desist" message on the editor's talk page. I expect the admin corps are as frustrated as the community at large by the conduct of some CC case editors. They now have the tools and the authorisation to deal with it summarily. &nbsp;] <sup>]</sup> 19:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
*I agree with the opinions of my colleagues above; they've pretty much covered this from all angles. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

== Request for clarification: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience ==
'''Initiated by ''' ] '''at''' 21:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''

Directly involved
*{{userlinks|Ludwigs2}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|ScienceApologist}} ()
Others are involved in the conversation and will be notified, but I don't want to commit anyone outside the direct discussion. (General notifications at the two below-noted discussions of this issue - , .)

=== Statement by Ludwigs2 ===
Clarification is needed on the use of skeptical sources in general, and the use of ] and ] as sources in particular. The current dispute centers around assertions of 'expertise' in skepticism. The pseudoscience decision does consider expert ''editors'', but does not deal with similar assertions of expertise ''by'' editors ''about'' sources.

See the discussions at:
*]
*]

==== Barrett in specific ====
In the specific case, ScienceApologist (and others) argue that Barrett can be used to critique the work of a minor historic scientist ] as pseudoscience, despite the facts that:
* Price's work would not have been considered pseudoscience at the time he was a publishing scientist.
* Barrett's critique is actually aimed at the ], an organization ostensibly formed around Price's (in current times) discarded theories, but which Price was never to my knowledge directly associated with.
* Barrett himself has no special training in the philosophy of science or the history of science, but is primarily notable for running the website QuackWatch.
The argument being used is that Barrett is considered an expert in the "field of quackbusting" ( assumedly by virtue of running QuackWatch), and this is defended by reference to the wording of ] , through the assertion that the following phrase:<blockquote>''Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.''</blockquote> implies that Barrett is an expert ''because'' he has been published in reliable third-party publications.

The obvious problems with this arguments (from my perspective) are:
# There is no scholarly or academic 'field' of 'quackbusting'
# There are no objective criteria for determining expertise in quackbusting, even if such a field could be argued to exist.
# Publication is reliable sources does not automatically confer the status of 'expert'
# There is no reason to assume that Barrett (a retired psychologist) has any particular training or skills that qualify him as an expert at scientific practice or methodology, aside from having once been a practicing scientist.
Barrett is certainly notable (though his notability is largely due to self-promotion and self-publication through his website), and certainly reliable as a noteworthy proponent of the skeptical point of view, but (IMO) should not be defended as an authoritative expert in a non-existent field for which he has no specific training.

==== Skeptical sources more generally ====
This type of problem occurs to a greater or lesser degree across a broad number of articles. A variety of skeptical sources - including individuals such as Barrett and collected materials or journals such as ] or the ] - are used as though they were authoritative experts on all fringe topics. I'd like to propose that the following clarifications be made to address this problem:
# Skeptical sources can be defined as follows:
#* They are sources which advocate against pseudoscience, fringe theories, alternate theories or other viewpoints that they considered unscientific.
#** Different sources may use any of several definitions of the term 'scientific'.
#* They are comprised of people, usually with scientific backgrounds, working as generalists rather than working in a particular field for which they are trained.
#* They use scientific arguments for refutation and often compile and use scientific research from other sources, but do not generally do research of their own and are not subject to peer review, accreditation, or the other systems that assure accuracy and objectivity in mainstream scientific research.
# Skeptical sources should not be taken to be scientific experts, but should be treated (depending on context) as:
#* Equivalent to informed journalistic sources.
#* As primary sources advocating for a particular viewpoint.
In general, this would mean that editors who use skeptical sources would have a raised bar with respect to clear attribution, specific quoting and verification of claims, neutral and balanced language, and in other ways be obliged to stick more closely to proper encyclopedic methods and style. This should result in a general improvement of the quality of fringe articles across the project. --] 21:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

==== Addendum ====
Just as a response to ScienceApologist's claim that this is beyond ArbCom's remit... A few points:
* This is not a mere content dispute on a single article - Barrett's is mentioned in 120+ mainspace articles, QuackWatch in 220+, and The Skeptic's Dictionary in 181. Almost all of those are examples where these sources are used as supposed experts.
* The use of these sources is always defended under the ArbCom pseudoscience ruling, citing the need to present mainstream sources as prominent, and then using the specious claims of expertise to argue that a skeptical source represents the mainstream viewpoint.
ArbCom had the remit to deal with sourcing issues in the original ruling, therefore it has the remit (and I would argue the obligation) to clarify its ruling. --] 01:05, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


=== Statement by ScienceApologist ===
This seems to me to be a content dispute: mainly beyond arbcom's remit. I include, below, a rationale for why Ludwigs2 is incorrect in specific claims he made above only for completeness as I do not expect arbcom to actually agree to post any clarification on the issue except maybe to clarify that they are not permitted to adjudicate sources (c.f. ]).
{{hat|Click show to see why Ludwigs2 is incorrect}}
] gives us a guide as to how to determine whether certain sources can or cannot be used. In particular, primary source documents of experts can be excepted when they are commenting on their area of expertise. Expertise is determined, according to the self-same policy, by publication record and evaluations of the status of the author by external reviewers. In the particular dispute referenced by Ludwigs, I noted that ] could be considered an expert on alternative medicine claims since he has a publication record in the field: , , , and a record of accolades from other experts who have evaluated his work: , . These are only illustrative examples. A more complete evaluation can be read at his Misplaced Pages biography.
{{hab}}
] (]) 23:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by BruceGrubb ===

In this specific case, the claims of Barrett regarding Price can be shown to be incorrect or out of date using reliable sources.
# Barrett's claims regarding what Price ignored are contradicted by Price's own book (published by Paul B. Hoeber, Inc; Medical Book Department of Harper & Brothers) (see ] as well as in a 1923 publication by Price called ''Dental Infections, Oral and Systemic''
# Barrett's claims regarding focal infection theory are shown to possibly out of date by
:* Saraf (2006)'' Textbook of Oral Pathology'' Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers; pg 188
:* Bergenholtz, Gunnar; Preben Hørsted-Bindslev, Claes Reit (2009) ''Textbook of Endodontology''; Wiley page 135-136
:* Henderson, Brian; Michael Curtis, Robert Seymour (2009) ''Periodontal Medicine and Systems Biology'', Wiley; Page 33
# With the exception of the focal infection none of Berrett's claims regarding Price have a reference.

This for me raises a lot of ] issues regarding the use of Berrett in a biography of a man who died in 1948 when the understanding and state of dentistry and nutrition was much different than it is now. Price's work might have been perfectly good ''for his time'' but later research may have showed underlying premises common to his time were flawed or simply wrong. The problem is with no references we can't tell if these claims regarding Price are just Berrett's opinion, were the view of Price's contemporaries, or were the view of later researchers critiquing Price. Coupled with the idea the focal infection statement may be out of date, lack of information as where most of the claims are coming from, and apparent contradiction with Price brings up the issue of "if this is flawed then ''what else'' in this article is flawed?" putting ] in the ICU.--] (]) 23:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

==== Addendum by BruceGrubb ====

I would like to add another reason for ArbCom to reconsider its remit; one editor seems to be using ] as a ] hammer to squelch meaningful challenges to ]'s expertise.
# It has been used to call another editor a drunk ()
# It in conjunction with ] has resulted in apparent ] (see , , , and )
# It has been used to claim that ], ], ] are off topic in the BLP noticeboard (an archive of the BLP Noticeboard is not on topic for the BLP Noticeboard? '''SAY WHAT'''?!?)

In short ''because'' of a lack of the requested clarification we effectively have possible '''conduct''' issues going on and will likely see this kins of problem in the future; I seriously doubt ArbCom had this mess in mind when it made its ruling. We really need to have clarification on how sites like can be used and if owner is the author how ] applies to them '''in the ''talk'' pages'''.--] (]) 07:37, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by Ronz ===
This is purely a content dispute. --] (]) 01:35, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

===Statement by Itsmejudith ===
It seems to me that we reasonable people on FTN rapidly reached a realistic consensus about Barrett/Quackwatch: a useful source in some circumstances but with limitations that need to be respected. That's true of any source, really. Although SA continues to demur from this, we can discuss such sources case by case like grown-ups. I can't see much that ArbCom can add. I agree with Ludwigs that "Quackbusting" isn't an area of expertise. The UK writers like ] and ] develop the phenomenon beyond Barrett's starting point. They make a point of referring to recognised experts, so we can use them as starting points and follow the cite trail to excellent sources. ] (]) 08:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by The Founders Intent===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->
It appears to me from sources in the Price article that Price was quite respected during his time. In fact he occupied a chairmanship position in research with the ADA, is the credit with several major technological breakthrough for his time. Furthermore his research in nutrition among aboriginal tribes in several regions is consider unique and rare due to the fact is could not be reproduced today, simply due to demographic changes. No one has been able to successfully determine that his work is flawed. At the time of his work, two opposing views in dentistry were being debated that of nutrition based the concept that caries were caused by system disease, and due to local infection from bacteria. Caried caused by local infection won the argument, and has guided dentistry for the most part since. Barrett's critique does not account for the context (time) of Price's research, and compares it to modern criteria. --]<sup>]</sup> <sub>]</sub> 01:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, I may have a potential breakthrough/course of action to discuss with you. --]<sup>]</sup> <sub>]</sub> 14:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by Griswaldo ===

] summarizes the situation well from my point of view. It is also unfortunate that it has needlessly escalated to this point. While Quackwatch is probably a good critical source for determining how some ''contemporary'' medical practices deviate from the ''current'' mainstream scientific consensus, Stephen Barrett is not a reliable source on the history of dentistry, nor is he a reliable source on the cross-cultural history of nutrition (and these facts have been well established in the various discussions of the topic over the last few days). It appears to me that some editors are unwilling to parse the reliability issues of Quackwatch on a case by case basis in line with relevant policies like ], and instead choose simply to defend the publication in its entirety at all times. In the end this is a reliability issue which can be settled on the relevant talk pages and noticeboards. I welcome Newyorkbrad and anyone else's input as editors in any of those venues.] (]) 15:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
* We're not going to rule on what is essentially a content dispute here, I see no conduct issues that need to be looked at. ] (]) 01:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
* Per Fozzie.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — ] • ] • </span> 18:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
* The good news is that I don't see any significant misconduct in the history of this disagreement so far. The bad news is that does leave the matter in the category of "content dispute, ArbCom can't help you." If you want my individual thoughts as an editor, feel free to ask me on my talkpage after this request is closed. ] (]) 02:08, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
*As everyone's said, this is something that needs to be handled via the usual community discussions. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:54, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: DIGWUREN ==
'''Initiated by ''' ] (]) '''at''' 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks|Petri Krohn}} (initiator)
<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. Anyone else affected must be notified that the request has been filed,
immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. The line for username2 can be removed if no-one else is affected. -->

=== Statement by Petri Krohn ===
I am seeking clarification on whether I made yesterday to ] '''a)''' constitutes edit warring, '''b)''' is a part of a BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, or '''c)''' is unrelated to any ongoing edit war in the article.

The article is under discretionary sanctions authorized in the Digwuren case limiting editors to 1RR per day.

I try to maintain a 0 RR policy on disputed topics – never doing blind reverts and instead finding new formulations to address the different objections. The edit war on the Mass killings under Communist regimes started October 13 and resulted in nine blind reverts by a total of six different editors. A complete list of the edits is available in in ] on the related arbitration enforcement thread. My edits to the article were intended to stop the ongoing edit war by finding and proposing a suitable compromise wording. In the half an hour it took for me to check that my first edit was supported by facts the article went through two more rounds of edit warring.

I believe both my edits were allowed by WP:BRD, more specifically ] – a Misplaced Pages policy that excludes the BRD cycle from edit warring. None of the material I added has ever been disputed; the fact that ] sees a causal link between communist ideology and mass killing is the only thing all editors working on the article have been able to agree on.

Here are three diffs related to my second edit:
#
#
#

The diffs shows three words in common with my first edit and one word in common with the disputed content.

On a general note, I would like the arbitration committee to specify, if the following two statements are a correct interpretation of the relevant policies, ] and ]

# 3RR only applies to edit warring; the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is not edit warring and is not subject to 1 / 3RR restrictions.
# An edit should be considered part of the BRD cycle and not edit warring, if it addresses a substantial objection raised by another editor (weasel words, BLP violation) – even if it retains a large part of the challenged content.

-- ] (]) 21:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by Vecrumba ===
I have noticed "BRD" being used to spin-doctor (my perception) reverts as being something else. (Diffs are not material, I'm not here to litigate any particular instance.) Where a BRD sets off an edit/revert war, I can see <u>'''the original BRD'''</u> being exempt from the edit revert chain, but <u>'''only'''</u> as long as:
# the original BRD itself is not re-inserted, substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) from its initial instantiation; and
# where there is no initial BRD, "BRD" is not invoked to reinsert substantially unmodified (or modified not at all) content from earlier instantiations of versions which comprise an edit war already in progress.
In either event: reinserting an (initial) BRD in a chain of reverts or claiming BRD within a chain of reverts, the claim for "BRD" is ''nullified'', as to not do so would encourage editors to ''circumvent'' #RR restrictions by offering the revert "advantage" to any editor who is first out of the gate to claim "BRD." I would like to know if my interpretation is correct. Best, ]<small> ►]</small> 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The corollary here is that claiming "BRD" to side-step rules on edit-warring may be construed as Wiki-lawyering. Edit-warring trumps BRD, not BRD trumps edit-warring. ]<small> ►]</small> 18:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

===Statement by Collect===

The proimary issue is that where an article is clearly and multiply marked as "1RR", is it proper to assert "BRD" when the (at least partial) contents of two reverts clearly have been on and off reverted in the past? Where such a warning is not clearly marked (which has certainly been the case in the past) I would think the argument of BRD had merit. However, the case in hand does not have the benefit of that caution at all.

There is another issue -- has "Digwuren" now been excessively stretched? I have just been officially "warned" which means I can not edit anything about the ] -- an article I did not even know existed! Where "Digwuren" is thus so stretched, ought Arbcom ''sua sponte'' consider ''limiting'' that decision which has now been stretched more than a Hefty bag in a commercial? ] (]) 19:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)



=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
* Generally speaking, edit-warring is a pattern of conduct; it is difficult to say whether a single, isolated edit constitutes edit-warring. From your description of the context, I would say that you inserted yourself in an ongoing edit war, if nothing else; this may or may not have been a good decision on your part, and may or may not be considered sanctionable behavior by administrators enforcing discretionary sanctions in this area.<p>As far as your other question is concerned, 3RR (and similar rules) apply to ''any'' revert, whether it is part of a BRD cycle, a blind revert, or something else; engaging in BRD does not grant an exemption from revert limitations, and one can still be engaged in edit-warring even if BRD is offered—rightly or wrongly—as an excuse. ]&nbsp;<sup>]]&nbsp;]]</sup> 17:48, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
* I agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. ] (]) 05:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
* I too agree with the substance of Kirill's comments. ] (]) 03:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
----

== Request for clarification: ] ==
'''Initiated by ''' ] (]) '''at''' 20:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

''List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:''
*{{userlinks| Marknutley}} (initiator)
*{{userlinks|username2}}

<!-- Substitute "admin" for "userlinks" if a user is an administrator. Anyone else affected must be notified that the request has been filed,
immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. The line for username2 can be removed if no-one else is affected. -->

=== Statement by Mark ===
Tony Sideaways has brought an enforcement request against me for commenting on a discussion at ANI. Although O2RR was blocked for editwarring on a CC related article the discussion at ANI encompassed his history from as far back as 09. I now have two admins seeking a two week block for my commenting on something which i honestly did not see as CC related. I withdrew about 6 weeks before the case even closed when it was requested of me. I would like to know if in fact i have broken the probation? ] (]) 20:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

=== Statement by other user ===
<!-- Leave this section for others to add additional statements -->

=== Clerk notes ===

=== Arbitrator views and discussion ===
*This is what ] is for; the admins there can determine whether or not your edit was a violation of the restrictions. We do not preemptively overrule the decisions there. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:57, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
----

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