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== Materials == | |||
== "illegal under international law" == | |||
I don't think we should write that Ariel ''is'' illegal under international law, but we should write (with suitable source) that authorities like the UNSC and ICJ and most countries consider it illegal under international law though Israel disagrees. That is a plain fact and is one of the most notable facts about Ariel. Leaving it out would be a sin. The question is what source to use and how to present this information briefly (I don't like the same argument leading to expanded text in many articles). Btw, "most countries" is proved by UNGA resolutions. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
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== settlement type == | |||
Shuki, in your unexplained rush to remove the words Israeli settlement from the infobox, perhaps you should pay attention to some salient points. This is a generic "settlement" infobox, not specific to Israel, so the "settlement" parameter has nothing to do with the type of Israeli settlement this place is. Also, we have as the primary description of this colony in the lead of the article the term "Israeli settlement". Is there a reason why that description is being removed from the infobox by yourself? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:28, 15 September 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
Relevant sources: | |||
:In the past, this infobox was reject because of exactly some of the points you brought up. Nothing has changed with you at all. It's your monthly witch-hunt to dehumanize all Jewish populated places and remove their primary descriptor -> municipal type, and replace, or emphasize the political label. Your revert of 'city' simply shows you cannot accept that term being in place by itself without the political descriptor in this case, weasel word. --] (]) 19:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
* http://www.jpost.com/Metro/Article.aspx?id=199767 | |||
::Ariel is an Israeli settlement in the Palestinian territories. So please do not remove Israeli settlement from the settlement type or replace the map for this place in the palestinian territories with one of Israel. --] (]) 19:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::Not. That is your POV. Nableezy and SD, I remind you that only a few months ago Nableezy put out an Rfc that failed to support this position. I suggest you do not rehash that whole affair unless there is something new to add. --] (]) 19:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Was the RfC about if Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories are in Israel? Did I remove that its a city? --] (]) 19:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::That is, like much of what you usually write, inaccurate. The RFC did not "fail to support my position", "my position" clearly had more support than yours. Either way, the primary description in this article is "Israeli settlement". The RFC closer said we should use what is already there and not continue to have this same fight. You are now instigating that fight by again removing the primary description. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
::::: This was discussed at length in the RFC... if we go by sources, and why shouldn't we (policies, anyone?) the primary aspect of this entity is "Israeli settlement", but sources do also mention that it has been give "city status" by Israel. --] (]) 20:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
== History section addition request: the April 29, 2022 drive-by-shooting attack == | |||
== Recent IP edits == | |||
April 29, 2022 drive-by-shooting attack: an Israeli 23-year old male security guard stationed at the settlement entrance was shot and killed by two Palestinians. Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (Fatah's armed wing) claimed responsibility for the terror attack in a video statement. | |||
As such: . | |||
The problem with it is not the legal status of Ariel, but the style of the article. Legality issue is already covered. The second addition is simply unsourced and I doubt it can be sourced. Also, IP's comment "''No disputing the settlements are illegal. only whether they will remain''" shows lack of understanding of WP policies. Please read about ], ] and ]. --] (]) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:The fact that this settlement is illegal under international law should be in the lead. There is not a single rational argument for not including that incontrovertible fact in the lead, a fact that I can both provide hundreds of sources saying this about all Israeli settlements and further can provide many saying this about Ariel specifically. Edits such as are examples of unapologetic POV pushing. The article now has included the lead a recent statement by a political leader that they feel that Ariel is part of an "integral part of Israel", but not the fact that it is not currently in Israel, that it is in occupied territory, or that it is illegal under international law. Not one of those facts is currently in the lead. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 00:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
::Reviewing legality in the lead is fine with me, and I guess we both know how it can be done properly. International position, source, Israeli position, source, everybody happy. If you think that Netanyahu's claim is out of context or have to be balanced or don't belong to the lead, I'm open to discuss it. The IP edit, however, is of the kind you tend to revert as vandalism. --] (]) 00:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
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::::That's more or less how the consensus (that you've been a part of) goes in all settlement-related articles, where legality is covered in the lead, so I thought it would be ok with you. But I'm open to any constructive input. --] (]) 09:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::: The BBC has a boilerplate text to the effect that "settlements are illegal under international law, but Israel disputes this" (quoted from memory). --] (]) 19:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::Yes, I remember this one. BBC rulez. --] (]) 20:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:::::The cities and villages are legal under Israeli law. --] (]) 01:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::And why does that mean the fact that the settlements are illegal under international law should not be in the lead? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 04:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:::::::Again? It ''this'' the one that sets a precedent? Why are established editors even reverting when a centralized discussion could be taken place?] One editor even said it in a edit summary "known problem with settlement articles, please discuss first". How many times is this going to be repeated? The RfC on what comes first (still a weird RfC to even have) didn;t really have an impact it looks like: . ] (]) 09:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Is there a reason you make us read this nonsense? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 13:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:::::::::Is there a reason that editors continue to not agree on multiple articles how to handle the legality and how to label it? Check out the history page on this article alone. You think it is nonsense while I think it is months of disruption.] (]) 19:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Thats nice. It misses the point, but its nice to know you are at least thinking. Now if we could only get you to do some reading before saying what you think. We are discussing the content of this article here. If you would like to do that feel free. What you should not feel free to do is disrupt the conversation with a rant that has nothing to do with the content of the article. If you want to go cry about reverting go do it somewhere else. I am trying to solve the problem here. Not deal with rants that dont even have anything to do with the topic of discussion. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
https://www.timesofisrael.com/guard-killed-in-w-bank-terror-attack-shielded-girlfriend-with-his-body-saving-her/ | |||
== capital of samaria == | |||
https://twitter.com/NewpressPs/status/1520222299483426817?s=20&t=MKee9cKzQj_4Pch4j9mtgg | |||
https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/status/1520224843701968903?s=20&t=MKee9cKzQj_4Pch4j9mtgg | |||
--] (]) 15:45, 30 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
Could the user who feels this is "relevant content" please explain why a remark by an Israeli PM about Ariel deserves to be in the lead? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
⚫ | :]. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 17:00, 30 April 2022 (UTC)</small> | ||
:I don't have a problem moving it into the body, if that's what editors here agree to.--'']] ]'' 15:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::While we are at it, could you explain what is "weasel worded" about "the term the Israeli government uses for the norther West Bank" and also why you wikilinked within a quote, something the ] explicitly says to avoid doing? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:::Its preferred to link in quotes then to weasel word, something the ] explicitly says to avoid doing.--'']] ]'' 16:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::Except you havent said what is "weasel worded" about what you removed. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
::: One point is also that "West Bank" is the term that WP:RS typically use of the area and the term that therefore this article should predominantly use. --] (]) 16:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::You missed the point.--'']] ]'' 16:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC) | |||
:: Ok, I was going off the fact that a fatal 2018 stabbing terror attack at the settlement entrance was already mentioned. Mind explaining the distinction so I can get a better understanding of News/Not News delineation in such cases? --] (]) 17:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
== recent edit == | |||
⚫ | :::That shouldnt be there either. Removing it now. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)</small> | ||
::::@]Thanks for clarifying. --] (]) 09:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC) | |||
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 September 2022 == | |||
edit says that settlers looked "in the hills of Samaria". ] specifies that you cannot say that something is "in Samaria". The edit summary on the revert is mindless, what certain people call "Samaria" is a part of the West Bank. If somebody "looked in Samaria" they looked in the West Bank. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 19:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
{{Edit extended-protected|Ariel (city)|answered=yes}} | |||
:Actually, they were looking for a place in Samaria. I see where you are going with this, and I think it is about time to modify the naming convention a bit to allow leeway for this. Nonetheless, A direct quote will help take away the ambiguity. I'm trying to get a hold of a book about Ariel as well to also source my old claim that the hill was called Jabel Mut. Imagine how good you could make Arab articles if you spent 10% of your time on them instead of holding the Israeli articles to the highest standards. --] (]) 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
Request to remove the Arabic name for Ari'el (אריאל) from the article as this is not relevant to the name or etymology of the city. ] (]) 13:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 13:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
::If you provide a direct quote and attribute it as a direct quote then you can quote them saying they were looking for a place in Samaria, but it should be clarified in the text what that means. I think I have already told you that I focus on Palestine, not Israel. This is an article on a colony in the Palestinian territories. It isnt my fault that Israel has established a large number of colonies in the Arab territory it holds under occupation. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 20:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:No, this is in occupied Palestinian territory, and Arabic is the sole official language of Palestine. That the occupying power has established colonies and given them a Hebrew name makes it so we need to include the Hebrew as well obviously, but what the natives call it and how certainly belongs. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 13:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)</small> | |||
== |
== Requested move 6 August 2023 == | ||
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> | |||
See ], it shows that we can not use "samaria". --] (]) 20:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' | |||
The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' Moved to ] per existing consensus <small>(])</small> — ] (] · ] · ] · ]) 19:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
== Jabel Mut == | |||
---- | |||
] → {{no redirect|Ariel (city)}} – The article had been stable at the title ] from its creation in 2004 to November 2022, when there was an undiscussed page move to ] by {{ping|Dan Palraz}}. I reverted said move thanks to the fact it had not been discussed or had any consensus behind it, and then {{ping|Nableezy}} moved it back to ] again with no rationale, so I'm starting an RM discussion to resolve the issue. My position is that both (city) and (settlement) are natural disambiguators and neither is incorrect, and that given a lack of a strong reason to favour one over the other, the article should remain at the title it has held for over 18 years: ]. It's worth also mentioning that in all other language wikipedias which use disambiguation for this article, the word for "city" is used rather than "settlement". <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">] <sup>(], ]) </sup></span> 14:52, 6 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
<blockquote>בעיצומו של תהליך גיוס המשפחות לגרעין הגיעה הצעה מאגף התכנון במטכ"ל, ובה הוצעו שלושה מקומות להתיישבות בשומרון: | |||
*'''Oppose''' - Ariel, as noted in the first sentence, is an Israeli settlement, not simply a city. Id support moving this to ], as that is the primary descriptor in both this article and in reliable sources. Beyond that, the article had been stable at settlement for well over a year, making the revert a move and not a challenge to a then settled move. Beyond that, the move request is factually false, the Arabic article uses مستوطنة, settlement. German actually has two articles, ] and ]. Dutch has it as ] which is Ariel (West Bank Jordan River). So no, the other languages do not all use city instead of settlement, that is just false. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 15:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)</small> | |||
# השטח ליד העץ הבודד שעליו הוקם לימים היישוב ברקן | |||
*'''Oppose''', Ariel is first and most importantly an Israeli settlement that is established on occupied land and its very existence is regarded as illegal by the international community. To have the article named "Ariel (city)" would be a normalization of its status and against how the entire world views it. Just because the article was inaccurately named for 18 years doesnt mean it should be switched back. But the article should be named: "Ariel (Israeli settlement)" and not just "settlement". --] (]) 06:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
# השטח שעליו הוקם לימים היישוב תפוח | |||
*'''Oppose''' for the same reasons as Nab and SD give. Also agree to "Ariel (Israeli settlement)". ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 07:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
# גבעה קרובה לכפר כפל-חראס, הידוע בפי ערביי הסביבה בכינוי "הר המוות". "הר המוות" (ג'בל מאוט): אדמתו טרשית, מלאה בסלעים חשופים, שאותה אי אפשר לעבד לא כן שכן להתיישב בה.</blockquote> | |||
*'''Move''' to ]. ] is also a settlement (which means any inhabited place). -- ] (]) 13:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
*'''Note''' - please see the ] of a number of settlements that had previously had different disambiguations. We have standardized disambiguations for Israeli settlements to (Israeli settlement). This, ], and ] were apparently missed as they had been using settlement and not the regional council as the disambiguation, but the result there should inform the discussion here (and soon at Shilo). <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 14:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)</small> | |||
:'''Move:''' to ] per Necrothesp, since there is ambiguity. ] (]) 07:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
:Given the recent moves of other Israeli towns in the West Bank that others have raised, rather than viewing this article in isolation, a move to ] out of consistency reasons seems reasonable to me. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans">] <sup>(], ]) </sup></span> 17:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC) | |||
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> | |||
</div><div style="clear:both;"></div> | |||
== |
== Mr l == | ||
I'm not interested in the PLO flag being in the Israeli settlement of Ariel ] (]) 01:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC) | |||
Brewcrewer has disruptively removed from the lead what an uninvolved admin said there was consensus to include (see ]). Brewcrewer, explain why you should not be banned for disruptive and tendentious editing against consensus. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 18:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:try to be somewhat more collegial and i will be glad to respond.--'']] ]'' 20:31, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
::No, respond because you are required to explain your reverts. Respond because an uninvolved admin said that there is consensus for including this information in the lead of such articles. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:02, 25 November 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:::All that needs to be said is at the centralized discussion. Please see my recent comment and keep it there over having multiple discussions on talk pages.] (]) 21:03, 25 November 2010 (UTC) | |||
::::No, brewcrewer needs to explain the revert he made in this article at this article's talk page. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - 21:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)</font></small> | |||
:::::Then you need to explain why you disregarded the admins suggestion on how to implement this. Stop going out of your way to start trouble.] (]) 21:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC) |
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On 6 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Ariel (settlement) to Ariel (city). The result of the discussion was moved to Ariel (Israeli settlement). |
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Materials
Relevant sources:
History section addition request: the April 29, 2022 drive-by-shooting attack
April 29, 2022 drive-by-shooting attack: an Israeli 23-year old male security guard stationed at the settlement entrance was shot and killed by two Palestinians. Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (Fatah's armed wing) claimed responsibility for the terror attack in a video statement.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/guard-killed-in-w-bank-terror-attack-shielded-girlfriend-with-his-body-saving-her/ https://twitter.com/NewpressPs/status/1520222299483426817?s=20&t=MKee9cKzQj_4Pch4j9mtgg https://twitter.com/KhaledAbuToameh/status/1520224843701968903?s=20&t=MKee9cKzQj_4Pch4j9mtgg
--theraefactor (talk) 15:45, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, I was going off the fact that a fatal 2018 stabbing terror attack at the settlement entrance was already mentioned. Mind explaining the distinction so I can get a better understanding of News/Not News delineation in such cases? --theraefactor (talk) 17:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- That shouldnt be there either. Removing it now. nableezy - 21:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @NableezyThanks for clarifying. --theraefactor (talk) 09:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- That shouldnt be there either. Removing it now. nableezy - 21:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, I was going off the fact that a fatal 2018 stabbing terror attack at the settlement entrance was already mentioned. Mind explaining the distinction so I can get a better understanding of News/Not News delineation in such cases? --theraefactor (talk) 17:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 September 2022
This edit request to Ariel (city) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Request to remove the Arabic name for Ari'el (אריאל) from the article as this is not relevant to the name or etymology of the city. TAYB2422 (talk) 13:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit extended-protected}}
template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC) - No, this is in occupied Palestinian territory, and Arabic is the sole official language of Palestine. That the occupying power has established colonies and given them a Hebrew name makes it so we need to include the Hebrew as well obviously, but what the natives call it and how certainly belongs. nableezy - 13:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 6 August 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Moved to Ariel (Israeli settlement) per existing consensus (closed by non-admin page mover) — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 19:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Ariel (settlement) → Ariel (city) – The article had been stable at the title Ariel (city) from its creation in 2004 to November 2022, when there was an undiscussed page move to Ariel (settlement) by @Dan Palraz:. I reverted said move thanks to the fact it had not been discussed or had any consensus behind it, and then @Nableezy: moved it back to Ariel (settlement) again with no rationale, so I'm starting an RM discussion to resolve the issue. My position is that both (city) and (settlement) are natural disambiguators and neither is incorrect, and that given a lack of a strong reason to favour one over the other, the article should remain at the title it has held for over 18 years: Ariel (city). It's worth also mentioning that in all other language wikipedias which use disambiguation for this article, the word for "city" is used rather than "settlement". Chessrat 14:52, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - Ariel, as noted in the first sentence, is an Israeli settlement, not simply a city. Id support moving this to Ariel (Israeli settlement), as that is the primary descriptor in both this article and in reliable sources. Beyond that, the article had been stable at settlement for well over a year, making the revert a move and not a challenge to a then settled move. Beyond that, the move request is factually false, the Arabic article uses مستوطنة, settlement. German actually has two articles, de:Ariel (Siedlung) and de:Ariel (Stadt). Dutch has it as nl:Ariël_(Westelijke_Jordaanoever) which is Ariel (West Bank Jordan River). So no, the other languages do not all use city instead of settlement, that is just false. nableezy - 15:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, Ariel is first and most importantly an Israeli settlement that is established on occupied land and its very existence is regarded as illegal by the international community. To have the article named "Ariel (city)" would be a normalization of its status and against how the entire world views it. Just because the article was inaccurately named for 18 years doesnt mean it should be switched back. But the article should be named: "Ariel (Israeli settlement)" and not just "settlement". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for the same reasons as Nab and SD give. Also agree to "Ariel (Israeli settlement)". Zero 07:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Move to Ariel (Israeli settlement). Ariel, Washington is also a settlement (which means any inhabited place). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note - please see the multi-move of a number of settlements that had previously had different disambiguations. We have standardized disambiguations for Israeli settlements to (Israeli settlement). This, Immanuel (settlement), and Shilo (settlement) were apparently missed as they had been using settlement and not the regional council as the disambiguation, but the result there should inform the discussion here (and soon at Shilo). nableezy - 14:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
- Move: to Ariel (Israeli settlement) per Necrothesp, since there is ambiguity. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- Given the recent moves of other Israeli towns in the West Bank that others have raised, rather than viewing this article in isolation, a move to Ariel (Israeli settlement) out of consistency reasons seems reasonable to me. Chessrat 17:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
Mr l
I'm not interested in the PLO flag being in the Israeli settlement of Ariel 2A01:73C0:56E:B9C8:68FB:2EFF:FE89:6B99 (talk) 01:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
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