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	== ~~Tendentious editing~~ ==		== Congratulations ==
			This is just to congratulate all the industrious scrubbers who have put in so many hours on the references to this article. This article, in this purified form, is destined to become a textbook case of the perversion of scholarship for purely doctrinaire ends, the exclusion of contrary opinion, and the sanitization of a historical record to conform to the intellectual rigidities of a corp of morons. Truly, a remarkable bibliography in every regard, one that students of critical thinking may learn from for a long time. Good work.

	*''Cross-posted on ] and ].''
	It's time for all of you to let go of the notion that your disagreements can be dealt with in ''arbitration''. Arbitration is not a Supreme Court of Everything on Misplaced Pages; it's a rather specialised board exclusively for dealing with conflicts involving conduct. If you consider that the members of the Arbitration Committee are volunteers just like yourselves, I think you'll realise why; there is no way they would have time to deal with all the conflicts involving ''content'', for example. Nor does the ArbCom create policy; they don't have time for that either. Please note the significant fact that '''most requests for Arbitration are turned down cold'''; either because they're requests about content, or because they're requests for policy-making, or because the conflict isn't deemed to be ripe for arbitration (which is supposed to be the ''last'' stage of dispute resolution, after all other avenues have been tried). All three turn-down reasons would come into play if any of you requested arbitration of the basic conflict on this talkpage. As I think Tom and Paul have pointed out, the best places for resolving it are outlined at the top of the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Considering how embattled the positions have become, I would suggest, amongst the wide range of possibilities, that you invite outside comment via ]. But there are plenty of other good ideas at ].

	There is in fact a conduct issue here, though hardly one that is ripe for arbitration, and that is the repetitiveness of NinaGreen's posting. Nina, you seem to be trying to wear down opposition by saying the same thing over and over. That's not a legitimate talkpage debating style; it's ], which is not allowed on Misplaced Pages. By way of example, I did a search on the word "arbitration" (which as I said has no business here even once), and, from the section "Verifiability and Meaningful Peer Review" alone, garnered this collection:

	#"Please refer me to the Misplaced Pages arbitration case which made that determination."
	#"If you want to argue with Shapiro, you can ask Misplaced Pages to arbitrate the issue."
	#"If you want to turn your personal opinion into Misplaced Pages policy, you need to take the matter to arbitration. That's the only way you can turn your own personal opinion into Misplaced Pages policy."
	#"If you and Tom want a determination from Misplaced Pages that the authorship controversy must be presented on Misplaced Pages as a fringe theory, you need to take the matter to arbitration to obtain a formal determination to that effect."
	#"If you and Tom wish to hold the personal view that the authorship controversy is a fringe theory, you have the right to do so, but your personal view is not Misplaced Pages policy, and you cannot turn your personal view into Misplaced Pages policy without taking the matter to arbitration."
	#"You and Tom are entitled to hold the view that the authorship controversy is a fringe theory, but you can't turn your personal views into Misplaced Pages policy without taking the matter to arbitration."
	#"Tom and Paul, it's you who are making the assertion that Misplaced Pages must treat the authorship controversy as a fringe theory, not me. It's therefore your obligation to take it to arbitration if you want to make it Misplaced Pages policy. You've been making the assertion that the authorship controversy is a fringe theory everywhere on Misplaced Pages where you could find a forum, but so far it's merely your own personal opinion, albeit repeated endlessly . If you want to make it Misplaced Pages policy, take it to arbitration. If you were as sure of the outcome as you've claimed to be in every one of the countless assertions you've made, you'd be off to arbitration in a flash."
	#"I'm interested in knowing how you would explain to a Misplaced Pages arbitration board that in your view its only a 'proposition' that William Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the Shakespeare canon."
	#"No-one goes to arbitration when the status quo is in their favour." (What... ? Nina, have you even looked at the page for requesting arbitration ? ] it is.)
	#"The only way to make it Misplaced Pages policy is for you and Paul and Nishidani to take it to arbitration and obtain a ruling."
	#"And you and Paul and Nishidani are not following Misplaced Pages rules if you are merely 'deeming' something to be so, and then claiming that what you 'deem' to be so is now Misplaced Pages policy, and everyone else must abide by what you have 'deemed' to be so. There is a process on Misplaced Pages by which what you 'deem' to be so can be turned into Misplaced Pages policy. It's called arbitration."

	To address claim number 11; no, it's not called arbitration, and there are no "Misplaced Pages rules" that have any relevance to the ]s and the ] quoted above. Nina, you are making up these notions of Misplaced Pages policy out of whole cloth. I realise you're a new user, but please make a start on reading the basic policies in good faith, and on listening to more experienced colleagues. Eleven out of the eleven comments above are in error, and haughty and sarcastic with it. The sheer repetition is what troubles me the most. Please read ]. The nutshell version goes like this:

	<br>"''Playing games with policies and guidelines in order to avoid the spirit of communal consensus, or thwart the intent and spirit of policy, is strictly forbidden''"

	<br> Don't do that. Don't play the ] game. Only post on this talkpage when you have something to say that is ''not'' a copy of what you've said before, in either wording or substance. If I don't see any improvement in this respect, I'm sorry to say you may eventually face a ].

	Tom, I see you discussing arbitrating the conflict also: "She won't start an arbitration because she knows what will happen". (BTW the "she" is rather rude, IMO.) No, I don't think Nina does know that, or even that you do, and I'm trying to explain it as gently as possible to you both. Nothing very alarming would happen; it would merely be useless, and a waste of time and energy, as the case would be briskly ruled unsuitable for arbitration. We all need to aim for not wasting time, our own or other people's. Nina, please reconsider your bad-faith debating style. The other editors are obviously hoping for you to change your approach and become an asset to the article. So am I, as you have a lot of valuable expertise. ] \| ] 20:16, 12 December 2010 (UTC). P.S. On the principle of not wasting time, I won't be re-posting or rewording any of the above unless I see good reason to.

	::Bishonen, you wrote:

	::::It's time for all of you to let go of the notion that your disagreements can be dealt with in arbitration.

	::Fine. Let's say you're right. You then wrote:

	::::As I think Tom and Paul have pointed out, the best places for resolving it are outlined at the top of the Reliable Sources noticeboard.

	::I disagree, for two reasons. Firstly, the identical arguments which have been made on this Discussion page are merely moved over to the RS Noticeboard and repeated there by the same people, and because I'm vastly outnumbered there, just as I am here, the result appears to be a 'vote' in favour of the other side (and Misplaced Pages policy states that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and that Misplaced Pages policy is not determined by votes). Moving this point over to the RS Noticeboard is thus merely a way of squashing my argument. Secondly, the topic is not suitable for the RS Noticeboard because the real issue is NOT about reliable sources. It has taken me a while to realize it because I'm new to Misplaced Pages editing, and because I haven't paid attention to the Misplaced Pages article on the Shakespeare authorship controversy, but the real issue is that David Kathman's 2003 view that the authorship issue is a fringe theory has been set in stone in the Shakespeare authorship controversy article, and that affects every other Misplaced Pages article which is related in any way to the Shakespeare authorship controversy and restricts the sources which can be used for every other such Misplaced Pages article. As I say, it's taken me a while to realize that this is what is at the heart of the problem. David Kathman does not work in the academic community, and his 2003 comments are getting close to a decade old. Things have changed dramatically in the academic community in the past few years, particularly with James Shapiro's Contested Will and Shapiro's LA Times article stating that the authorship controversy has gone mainstream. And things have not just changed in the academic community. Consider the comments about Sir Derek Jacobi's position on the Shakespeare authorship controversy in this review in the Telegraph of the new production of King Lear:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/8196501/Sir-Derek-Jacobi-Bard-to-the-bone.html. And consider the forthcoming film on the authorship controversy by Roland Emmerich. Misplaced Pages reflects the state of knowledge in the world as it is, not the state of knowledge as it was almost a decade ago. In light of Shapiro, Emmerich, Jacobi et al, it's obviously necessary to revisit the idea that the Shakespeare authorship controversy is a fringe theory, and to consider whether it is not instead a minority view.

	::You also wrote:

	::::There is in fact a conduct issue here, though hardly one that is ripe for arbitration, and that is the repetitiveness of NinaGreen's posting. Nina, you seem to be trying to wear down opposition by saying the same thing over and over.

	::Again, I disagree. It is only because I have persisted in trying to understand and apply the relevant Misplaced Pages policies that we have gotten to the point of realizing that the issue is not about whether one specific source is a reliable source which can be cited in the Edward de Vere article, but about an out-of-date determination in the Shakespeare authorship controversy article that the authorship controversy is a fringe theory rather than a minority view, an out-of-date determination which affects the content and sourcing of every other related Misplaced Pages article.

	::I'm open to suggestions, but it seems to me that perhaps the discussion of the fringe theory topic needs to be moved off this page and onto the Shakespeare authorship controversy page.] (]) 21:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

	::::::::::No, the place for that conversation would be the ] page. The source quoted (Kathman) is as ] as you can get, and I think you forget that Misplaced Pages is supposed to mirror the academy. And why you think arbitration would give you a better result than a policy noticeboard such as ], I have no idea. The same people (admins) comment on the same boards. ] (]) 00:50, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	::::::::::::Tom, if Misplaced Pages is supposed to 'mirror the academy', why is David Kathman, whose career for years has been as a stock analyst for Morningstar, being quoted on Misplaced Pages to represent the views of the academy? And why are you bringing up arbitration yet again, when in my last posting I agreed with Bishonen that arbitration wasn't the answer? Did you not read what I said?] (]) 01:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:::Huh... ? You're misreading my post grossly. Are you doing it in good faith? I hope so, but it's frankly beginning to look remote. Did I say "the best place for resolving this is the Reliable Sources noticeboard"? No. Did I say "the best places for resolving it are ''outlined at the top of'' the Reliable Sources noticeboard" ? Why, yes, I did! You even quote me saying it. And here's the passage in question, look:

	::::"''The ''guideline'' that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is ]. The ''policy'' that most directly relates is: ]. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the ]. If your question is about whether material constitutes ], please use the ]. If your question is about ], or other ] please use the ].''"

	:::You ignore virtually everything I say, including my (surely very visible) eleven-fold quote of your variations on a single (mistaken) accusation. Please understand that I can and will block you, or ban you from this page, if you persist in posting while ] to anybody else. I have already warned you about ] and ]. I hope you took the trouble to click on those links. Please listen to the experienced users on this page, instead of going into lawyering mode every time anybody addresses you. A drop of humility would save you from a peck of notions like the one you offer above: that you have a right not to be outnumbered because Misplaced Pages is not a democracy... ] \| ] 00:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC).

	I'm shocked at your statement about blocking me on the ground that I'm not listening to what you say. I have read carefully what you've said in both your postings above. But as I stated very clearly in my last posting, what you have said does not concern the issue, and we are obviously unfortunately talking past each other in some way which I can't quite understand. The issue is NOT reliable sources, so I don't understand why you keep referring me to the RS noticeboard page, which is all about reliable sources. The issue is David Kathman's 2003 statement on the Shakespeare authorship controversy page on Misplaced Pages that the Shakespeare authorship controversy is a 'fringe theory'. David Kathman is a stock analyst. He does not teach at a university, and his statement is completely out of date in light of McCrae's and Shapiro's books, Sir Derek Jacobi's views, the graduate program in Shakespeare authorship studies at Brunel University, the academics who have PhDs who are on the Board of Brief Chronicles and teach at universities, Roland Emmerich's upcoming film, etc. etc. and even the fact that Paul Barlow said he taught the authorship controversy when he taught Shakespeare. Kathman's statement needs to be deleted from the Shakespeare authorship controversy page, and updated with something which more accurately reflects the current reality. Surely we can agree on that.] (]) 01:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Nina, the film is ''a work of fiction'', for crying out loud. You may as well say that ''Shakespeare in Love'' is evidence that Will made up the plot of ''Romeo and Juliet'' as he went along. The very fact that you refer to ''fiction'' as evidence shows how far off reality your argument is. McCrae's and Shapiro's books both clearly identify SAQ as fringe theory, even though they don't use that expression, not being concerned with Misplaced Pages terminology. Derek Jacobi is an ''actor''. The fact that he has played Shakespeare characters does not give him any special insight into authorship issues, anymore that the fact that he played Brother Cadfael make him an expert on medieval herbal medicines. As for Kathman, his status as a reliable source derives from his chapter in the book edited by ] and Lena Orlin for ''Oxford University Press''. I get the impression that you think that the term "fringe theory" means something similar to "obscure theory". It doesn't. Fringe theories may be very well known and discussed as cultural/historical phenomena. You never seem to get this point. I referred earlier to the ]. This is a well known 'theory' that is discussed in many books and university courses. But the ''theory itself'' is fringe in wikipedia's sense. Being discused in universities does not make a theory non-fringe. What matters is how it is discussed. ] (]) 02:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:::::David Kathman's degree is in linguistics, and he makes his living as a stock analyst with Morningstar. If someone is going to be cited as representing the views of the academic community on the Misplaced Pages Shakespeare authorship controversy page, it should be someone with a degree in the subject area who works in the academic community. That is so obvious it should go without saying. James Shapiro comes to mind.] (]) 07:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:::::::His article is considered to by ] because it is published by a quality academic press in a book edited by one of the world's foremost experts on Shakespeare. It can therefore be used in any relevant article, as it has clearly passed a full and proper peer review by experts in the field. According to ] non-RS sources can be used to explain and describe the fringe theory in question. So Ogburn, for example can be quoted to describe the beliefs of Oxfordians. ] states that non-RS (peer reviewed) sources may be used to counter fringe claims in article dedicated to them, which could allow the Kathman/Ross website, but only for some articles. I realise that all this bureaucratic jargon is confusing, but if you can negotiate your way through Elizabethan records, wikipedia policy pages should be a doddle. ] (]) 12:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	{{outdent}}Dave Kathman is considered an expert on the SAQ, as testified not only by the ''Oxford Shakespeare'' entry authored by him, but by his upcoming articles in Bruce Smith's ''Cambridge Encyclopedia of Shakespeare'' and Patricia Parker's ''Shakespeare Encyclopedia''. (He is also considered an expert on boy actors and early Elizabethan playing companies.)

	Shapiro is quoted 58 times on the SAQ page, so he's not being ignored. At no time has he said that the SAQ is not a fringe theory or that it is a minority view, nor does he do so in his book or in subsequent interviews. I have several other sources specifically stating that the SAQ is a fringe theory, and in fact I have several academics sources that say it is a manifestation of a mental illness and in terms that are nothing kind, and these aren't old sources, either. They are quite a bit harsher than the sources now used, but I am loath to use such statements.

	A fringe theory is one that deviates significantly from the mainstream view and that has very few adherents. Judging by the most generous standards, every anti-Stratfordian in the world could meet in a medium-sized football stadium with plenty of room to spare. Another point is that you don't have academics vandalising Misplaced Pages by inserting nonsense into the authorship articles the way the same IP vandal does in this and the SAQ article. The man is a respected professional in his field and should know better than to indulge in such childish hijinks, but for some reason extreme beliefs lead people to do stupid things in the name of "justice" and "fairness" for the True Author.

	As far as I'm concerned, this topic has worn out its welcome on this talk page. If you want an "official" determination of whether anti-Stratfordism is a fringe theory, use the dispute resolution mechanism on the ] page. You could find many statements to that fact on Misplaced Pages; the consensus doesn't change with the weather or with the release of every new book on the topic. ] (]) 13:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:Tom, it has nothing to do with "justice" and "fairness" for the True Author. It has to do with the Misplaced Pages policy of neutrality. David Kathman has for more than a decade been THE foremost opponent of the hypothesis that Shakespeare of Stratford did not write the plays. The Misplaced Pages policy of neutrality is violated by having someone as openly partisan as David Kathman frame the entire Misplaced Pages discussion by citing him on the SAQ page as THE SOLE authority for terming it a 'fringe theory', a determination which affects everything which can be said on Misplaced Pages on the topic, and every source which can be cited. Your defense of David Kathman is understandable, since you are associated with him on his website, which of course makes you partisan in this discussion of whether David Kathman should be allowed to frame the entire debate on Misplaced Pages. In line with Misplaced Pages's policy of neutrality, you should recuse yourself from discussion of this topic since you obviously have a vested personal interest in maintaining David Kathman as THE authority on the 'fringe theory' issue because of your personal association with him.] (]) 17:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	::Stop your offensive nonsense. It is not I who arbitrates whether Dave Kathman is an expert on the SAQ; it is ] (I assume you know who he is) and , Shakespeare scholar and former Executive Director of the Folger Institute and Executive Director of the Shakespeare Association of America, who edited ''Shakespeare: An Oxford Guide'', published by the ]; it is Shakespeare scholar and former president of the Shakespeare Association of America , who edited the ''Cambridge Encyclopedia of Shakespeare'', which will be published by the ]; and it is Shakespeare critic and scholar , who edited the five-volume ''Shakespeare Encyclopedia: Life, Works, World, and Legacy'', which will be published by ].
	::According to your ridiculous ''ad hoc'' standard, all these people should voice no opinion on whether the SAQ is a fringe theory because of their association with Dave Kathman. ] (]) 18:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:::It is interesting that Stanley Wells is so desperate to find a Strat authorship authority that he had to go to a Chicago stock broker with no expertise in the field and who uses a clog in a minor Texas law enforcement agency as his primary public spokesman. By the way since Wells endorses Kathman and Kathman refuses to repudiate lunatic Stratman Donald Foster(se article here on Donald Foster) does that in your opinion serve to rehabilitate Foster as a valid forensic source.
	:::So far as Wells is concerned, I remember attending the Stratford authorship trial in London with John Heath Stubbs and John breaking out iin laughter during Stanley testimony. "Poor Stanley," he explained afterwards, "it must be hard on him being married to a woman who can invent horror stories so much better than he does."] (]) 19:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I must remind you that this is not a newsgroup and that ] are ]. ] (]) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	::::Yawn. He used Kathman because Kathman has ''established'' his expertise. Most "Strats" are interested in researching ''Shakespeare'', not fringe Victorian ideologies, so they would rather read literature of their period than Delia Bacon or your own dyer preferences. If empty insult is all that you can offer, we may as well shut down this increasingly silly discussion now. But at least you didn't mention the sex trade this time. ] (]) 19:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


	:::Tom, it is not 'offensive nonsense' in the slightest. We are not talking about reliable sources here. The issue is neutrality, one of the pillars of Misplaced Pages. If the Misplaced Pages policy of neutrality is to be upheld, the entire debate on an issue cannot be framed by an extreme partisan (David Kathman) who is neither a member of the academy in question nor trained in that field of specialization, and who has been actively proselytizing in a partisan manner on the internet and in every other venue available to him for more than a decade. Yet that is what has happened in the SAQ article by allowing David Kathman's 2003 statement that the Shakespeare authorship controversy is a 'fringe theory' to shape the entire debate, including what sources can be cited in the SAQ article and in every other related Misplaced Pages article. I can't think that everyone involved in editing the SAQ article has been blind to the fact that that is what has happened, and that I'm the first person to ever realize what has taken place there, in violation of the Misplaced Pages policy of neutrality.

	:::The issue of whether you should recuse yourself from the discussion is an entirely separate one. As a partisan who is actively involved with David Kathman on his website, you can't suddenly don the mantle of an impartial and neutral Misplaced Pages editor on the topic of the citation of David Kathman's 2003 statement in the SAQ article that the Shakespeare authorship controversy is a so-called 'fringe theory'. In fact something you said suggests that in fact you may be the Misplaced Pages editor responsible for the citation.

	:::Your argument about Stanley Wells and the other individuals associated with David Kathman is a red herring. They are not trying to don the mantle of impartial and neutral Misplaced Pages editors on the subject of citing Kathman in the Misplaced Pages SAQ article. You are.] (]) 19:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	:::::Further evidence that the SAQ is a minority view rather than a fringe theory is found in a 2007 New York Times survey. 17% of Shakespeare professors surveyed thought that there was either "good reason," or "possibly good reason," for doubt. Moreover 72% of professors said they address the authorship question in their classes. This is evidence from the academy that we are dealing with a minority view, not a fringe theory. See the survey at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/education/shakespeare.html?_r=1 ] (]) 21:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}Nina, please see ], especially the last sentence in that section, before you make another repetitious post. ] (]) 22:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	Tom, my posting above is not at all repetitious. The New York Times survey is highly relevant to the topic under discussion, and has not been mentioned before.

	The statement you referred me to reads:

	::Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article.

	I am not using the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic. My comments are directed solely towards improving the article. At the moment the Edward de Vere article is highly restricted in terms of sources which can be cited because of the violation of Misplaced Pages's policy of neutrality mentioned above, whereby solely on the basis of a 2003 statement from David Kathman, who is highly partisan, the Shakespeare authorship controversy has been declared a 'fringe theory'. Removing David Kathman's statement from the SAQ article would restore the neutrality which is Misplaced Pages's policy, thereby improving this and all other Misplaced Pages articles which have any bearing on the SAQ by allowing the authorship controversy to be treated as a minority view, which the New York Times survey of Shakespeare professors who are actually involved in teaching the subject clearly shows it is. It is astonishing to me that rather than accept the results of the New York Times survey, you choose to try to use it as an example of 'repetitiousness' to get me banned from Misplaced Pages. It is obviously difficult for you to be neutral on this topic, and Misplaced Pages demands neutrality from its editors. You should recuse yourself.] (]) 23:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I must remind you that this is not a newsgroup and that ] are ]. ] (]) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::But perhaps that was only just over the edge? I don't see a problem with calling someone "partisan", which doesn't draw any blood, but perhaps the "highly" and "extreme" could be left out without the meaning suffering. Always better to understate... ] (]) 00:34, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

	{{outdent}}It appears that my comment above by ]. It was made in response to . ] (]) 13:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)(Domald Foster's malfeasances have nothing to do with this.CD.

	:Anti-Stratfordian John Heath Stubbs for fifty years was universally held to be one of the most distinguished men of letters on the Cambridge Oxford circuit.He wasn't being insulting he was, quite accurately, assessing Stanley's wretched performance and regretting that he was too unintelligent to learn anythiing from his wife Susan whose "Woman in Black" was playing the West End.
	:::Lots of people would like to have invited Susan to their gatherings but when it meant listening to Stanley blathering on about Shakespeare they preferred not.I am praising the perspicasity of John Heath Stubbs in hopes that Stanley is not too old to benefits constructively from his observations.

	:::: As Heath Stubbs paraphrasing Yeats would say,"A politician is a man who learns his lies by rote,And then he buys some journalist to stuff them down your throat."] (]) 20:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
	::::Yawn. He used Kathman because Kathman has ''established'' his expertise. Most "Strats" are interested in researching ''Shakespeare'', not fringe Victorian ideologies, so they would rather read literature of their period than Delia Bacon or your own dyer preferences. If empty insult is all that you can offer, we may as well shut down this increasingly silly discussion now. But at least you didn't mention the sex trade this time. ] (]) 19:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	::: Paul,can't you get anything straight? The last time you were arguing that Dave established his authority through being hired by Stanley(Wells that is,not Laural) who got his authority through being hired on as gun by the Stratford something or other.
	::: Ok, so you want to brag that if Derbyites John Heath Stubbs,Andre Gide and Ernst Curtius walked into a gathering at the British Shakespeare Association the attendees would be so so culturally illiterate of twentieth century literature as to continue visiting with Dave and Stanley at the other end of the room.
	::: If they only wished to converse about Elizabethan boy actors on the other hand,I agree that none of the above Titans would have added much,if anything, to the discussion.
	::: Dyer? You ought to be very interested as Alden Brooks wrote the meanest things in the twentieth century about Edward de Vere until Alan decided to imitate him and resuscitate the Arundel libels which no other historian writing since the seventeenth century(at least known to me) has taken seriously.
	::: Still I agree that, like Shakespeare Authorship,the belief in the veracity of Charles Arundel is a minority view held by two well versed scholars, though defended through sheer perversity, by the other individuals endorsing it on this blog.
	::: "Skin trade"? Paul,I did you and Tom a favor.Strats have made exactly two direct manuscript discoveries in over a hundred
	years both link Will to the pandering trade.You guys are so far back on your Shakespeare biographical data that you didn't know one of them existed.And this is the thanks you give.] (]) 20:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
	::Can't you get anything straight? 'Dave' derives his authority '''as a source for wikipedia''' because he appears in Wells' book. He derives his authority for Wells (the person who has the capacity to judge such matters in the outside world) on the basis of his expertise. One answer referred to Wikpedia protocol, the other referred to judgements made by accredited experts about other experts in their field. It is the rule on Wikpedia that we as editors cannot determine expertise on the basis of our own personal judgement, but should do so according rules defined in policies laid out in ]. The two discoveries that "link Will to the pandering trade" do not do so. You misrepresented Hotson, who says ''nothing whatever'' about 'the pandering trade'. The other shows that he ''knew'' someone who was linked to it (or more probably in it). Well so what? How is this even relevant to authorship issues? Do you have any idea what the theatre world was like at that time? Have you read anything about the lives of Jonson, Greene, Marlowe etc etc. Greene lived with a prostitute. Jonson was a convicted felon; Marlowe was up to anything and everything. And what about other genteel poets and playwrights? Barnabe Barnes was convicted of attempted murder. John Day murdered fellow playwright Henry Porter. It would be astonishing if Shakespeare did not know someone who was involved in the sex business, especially since the theatres were actually in the red-light area. You still give no explanation of why this is relevant. Your comments about mid-20th century Derbyites are utterly unintelligable. I'm sure Shakespeare scholars are as interested in 20th century writing as anyone else who likes literature, but ''professionally'', I can't imagine that they would derive much benefit from such people, though it's possible that Andre Gide might have some useful practical experience of boy actors. The only SAQ writer who has genuinely contributed in any serious way to Shakespeare scholarship is Lefranc. ] (]) 08:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
	:::Can't you get anything straight,Paul? You undoubtedly came over here with this balderdash in hopes that your readers(if any) won't know what was originally said on the other thread at Shakespeare Authorship discussion:subhead Wilkins.The discussion was supposed to be about how a manuscript containing Shakespeare matteer came to be adulterated by a third rate hack named Wilkins who was never to appear in an authorial capaciity again.

	:::Two documents were cited,as a preliminary thereto.The second document was discovered by a man(previously unknown to you and Reedy) called Hotson who incorporated it into a book(equally unknown to you and Reedy).It is that document which is pertinent-- not Hotson's(whom you,as late as yesterday believed to be somebody named Hodson) failure to incorporate any coherent interpretation of said document in his book(which Reedy may still believe to be a pamphlet.
	:::As to your further misconceptions about available source material I'll try to reply to them where they belong.I mean the Wilkins section,not the sand box.

	:::"I'm sure Shakespeare scholars are as interested in 20th century writing as anyone else who likes literature, but ''professionally'', I can't imagine that they would derive much benefit from such people," Such people! Paul,do you actually know who Ernst Robert Curtius is? It is one thing not to know Leslie Hotson but not to know Curtius shows an equal ignorance of expertise in Modern,Renaissance and Medieval Literature.Try googling "Curtius James Joyce" or "Curtius,Literature and the Latin Middle Ages".The latter was,may still be,a standard Columbia graduate text for many generations.Too bad that Shapiro was too dellinquent in his studies to consult it.

	:::I know Sussex isn't in the same league as the Ox-Cam circuit but this is unbelievable. Though I agree that Dave and Stanley's style expertise would render them impervious to whatever Curtius will continue to offer.:::Now let's get back on topic,the life of Oxford(which seeing that Nina trounced you guys,you are understandably reluctant to do}. No one except Alden Brooks of Harvard and copycat Alan Nelson(Berkeley,1967)is known to have believed the Arundel charges in the past four hundred years.This definitely meets the Misplaced Pages definition of Fringe theory.In so far as they seek to relate themselves to the life of Edward de Vere they are fringe theorists,by definition on this blog (whether or not this is a desirable definition you claiim to be outside the purview oof mortal man). Further,as you have had your free daily lessons in remediable Shakespeare 0002,remediable World Literature 0001, and Edward de Vere 0000,I trust that you may eventually come to understand why you are not qualified to describe yourself as mainstream.] (]) 22:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

	== Citation of Articles in Online DNB ==

	I cited as a source yesterday an article in the online edition of The Dictionary of National Biography. Alan Nelson's DNB article has also been cited as a source by another editor. The online edition is only available to subscribers. I'm wondering whether this has been considered before. Should there be a link to the DNB homepage where people can subscribe if they wish? Most of the articles in the old hardcopy DNB have been revised for the online edition, as I understand it, and there are many entirely new articles in the online edition, so it's often not possible to cite the old hardcopy DNB for certain things. Comments, anyone?] (]) 19:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
	:See ], I think that helps. Keep the citation as accurate as possible, even if it is behind the paywall, links to home pages are a pain in the proverbial. ] (]) 19:09, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

	::Please do always supply the link that directly goes to the article, homepage only tends not to be accepted by WP reviewers at GA or FA. Tom can advise you how to use some web citation template, or you can simply add "(subscription required)". Please note also that there is a huge difference between the 1890s ] and the ] which you are referring to here. Although WP has copied thousands of PD articles from the old one it is hopelessly outdated on at lest the major 16th century figures. ] (]) 19:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

			Dr. Stritmatter
	:::I added the link to the template, as well as the access date. Just like academic sources, the site can be accessed free at most university libraries. ] (]) 20:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

			== SAQ in the ] of this article ==
	::::For me, Buchraeumer, the greatest difference between the DNB and the ODNB is that the DNB is a work of superb old-fashioned scholarship, while of course lacking the benefit of several generations of research, whereas the ODNB is good in parts. Some ODNB contributors are terribly hit or miss in their approach, getting things wrong for no good reason or else converting some small grain of possibility into a statement of fact. I take a modest smack at it in the early life of ], but my scepticism does not prevent me from citing it when I have no reason to doubt it. ] (]) 23:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
			{{u\|MaineJill}}, hello, and welcome to a ]. WP has plenty of SAQ articles, this is not one of them. The ] ''in this article'' summarize the SAQ-section in ''this article'' (afaict, "Eighty-seven "alternative" authors" is just something WP says in the list article, it's not actually from a ]). The proper amount of SAQ in ''this article'' is next to none. The lead ''here'' is not the place to go into details about SAQ. The current version is proper ] for ''this'' article. "alternative candidates proposed" is not misleading, just short and inclomplete, which is fine in this context. Refs like<ref>''Shakespeare Documented: A multi-institutional resource documenting Shakespeare in his own time,'' National Archives, the British, Bodleian, and Folger Libraries, et al. https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/</ref> are not very helpful, it's like saying "It's in that library somewhere, go find it". You may find the referencing "tool" found here ] helpful, there are others.
			{{reftalk}}

			I'm also unsure about some of your other ] changes. The current version,
	:::::Well, I am afraid I missed my real point here. It was that we ''at Misplaced Pages'' must really always differentiate between the ''DNB'' and the new ''OxfordDNB'', so as not to confuse them. Just because we have so many of the old articles. -- Of course some of the new entries even today lack a hundred years of research, but that doesn't make the old black-legend-inspired character assassinations or the old hagiographies any better. ] (]) 23:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

			''playwright, but "his violent and perverse temper" and "reckless waste" precluded him from attaining any courtly or governmental responsibility and resulted in the total loss of his extensive inheritance. In the 1888-1900 Dictionary of National Biography,''
	::::::You're right, of course, there were some sad hagiographies. We are certainly better off without the Victorian suppression of parts of the truth, not to mention the skirts on the piano legs. ] (]) 21:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
	Thanks to Tom for fixing up the ODNB citation, and to Buchraeumer for pointing out my slip. I'm a subscriber to the online ODNB, and I need to stop referring to it as the DNB. Habit dies hard. :-)] (]) 00:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
	:Nina, if you mean you pay a subscription, you can get into the ODNB online using the number on almost any UK public library card. Here's . ] (]) 21:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

			makes me ask why these "nameless" quotes are in the ] and what is so stellar about the 1888-1900 Dictionary of National Biography that it must be mentioned in-text in this part of the article?
	:::Thanks, Moonraker. Yes, I do subscribe. It's expensive, but I find that for the time being at least it's worth it just to be able to look things up at home when I'm transcribing documents for my website.] (]) 22:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

			That's my view, we'll see if others have any. I'm not a , I've just been editing WP for awhile.
	== Final Section ==

			One more thing. SAQ is one of several... let's say conflict areas on WP, and the topic (wherever it appears) is under something called ]. And, like I said at your talkpage, I ''still'' hope you like it here and decide to stay! ] (]) 09:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
	I added Oxford's verses back into the final section, which I've retitled Reputation. I don't know whether the verses had somehow dropped out, or whether an editor took them out. They look a bit odd, and perhaps they can be fixed up. If not, I don't mind if they're eliminated, although I like them there because Puttenham actually quoted them.

			Yet another thing, about references in the ], see ]. ] (]) 10:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
	I was thinking of dealing in the Reputation section with two other aspects of Oxford's reputation, i.e. character and financial. I haven't had time to do that yet. Comments, anyone? ] (]) 22:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
			*If the SAQ is mentioned in the article, then I guess it should be reflected in the lead with due weight. There's no reason to have any refs though, as there's no reason to be quoting the DNB (particularly in the lead). Use the ] and ''don't'' cite it in the lead. ]] 10:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			**Controversial topics tend to have more refs in the lead (check at ] for example), sometimes it seems to help a bit, but in general, if the ] is done right, they should not be necessary. ] (]) 11:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			**:I was sratching my head, asking "what on Earth is SAQ"? Not sure about lead inclusion. With the current coverage in the article, I would lean towards ], but if it's true that he is one of the most popular Shakespeare candidates, it seems like this aspect may not be sufficiently covered in the article. Events and people referenced in conspiracy theories may be especially notable just because of their conspiracy associations. Just my two cents. (] · ]) ''']''' 12:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			::::Thanks, Buidhe. Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford/] has a sort of ]/] relationship, in that there's no question that "the other topic" is ] on its own and has an enormous amount of sources, some even ]. There's even an "Oxfordian" drama-film, '']'' (]!).
			::::Per the spirit of ], compare how SAQ is mentioned in the other "big ones", ], ], ] and ] (some would add ]). The current amount of SAQ in this article is quite reasonable, which of course doesn't mean it's perfect. But adding ] only stuff is not a good idea. ] (]) 13:27, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			::::And to be clear, the current amount of SAQ in this article is the ''Since the 1920s, he has been among the most prominent alternative candidates proposed for the authorship of Shakespeare's works.'' lead-sentence and the ] section. ] (]) 13:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			:::::Hi GGS- First, thanks for your comments above. I just reverted your change to the wording at the end of the first paragraph of the lede, as I think the previous wording was more neutral. I think WP stamps things with the term "fringe theory" more than it should. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			:::::Wow, that was a rapid undo of my revert! Well, maybe I just have a different take on the tone of "fringe theory". ] <sup>]</sup> 17:51, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			::::::As I see it, while the tone may not be considered "neutral" by all considerers, it's quite clearly ]. Actually, I think even some Oxfordians may agree with the term, they just think it's a ] kind of fringe theory. Perhaps the next century will tell. The intention was to comply somewhat with {{u\|MaineJill}}'s argument, as I understood it. ] (]) 18:19, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' I just wanted to make clear what {{u\|MaineJill}}'s main argument (repeated) is:
			:"We know WS wrote the plays in exactly the same way we know O was an earl: the historical record for both facts is extensive & unequivocal. There's 0 evidence for any alternative author. Oxfordianism is a textbook conspiracy theory."
			:And, to note that this, to my own view, is a strongly biased, POV argument. Thank you, ] ] 18:29, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			::Agree. I made a comment to that effect on her talkpage. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			::For a certain value of "evidence" there is more than 0. For example, the lifespans of O and S partly overlaps, that is evidence. They were both poets, that is evidence. But the evidence for Will, compared to any of the 87 or whatever, makes any other candidate a ]. ] (]) 20:10, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
			:::You may be right, when you "compare." But when you look at all the evidence for Will just by itself, I don't think you get to a value of say, 60%. Not over 50, I feel. And herein is the rub. When all the ''lacunae'' are systematically described, it does make you scratch your head, I think. ] ] 20:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

			== Name change from "Oxford" to "De Vere" ==
	:The more material we have to work with the better and more comprehensive the article will be in its final form. It's no trick at all to cut and summarise as long as the material is there to do it with, IMO. ] (]) 03:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

			Hello all- {{u\|Dositheus}} has changed apparently every instance of "Oxford", where used as de Vere's name, to "De Vere". While some may find this preferable, I think such a change would merit discussion here before implementation. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
	== Main Edit Finished? ==

	~~There~~ ~~are~~ ~~probably~~ ~~some~~ ~~bits~~ ~~and~~ ~~pieces~~ to be ~~added,~~ as ~~well~~ as ~~things~~ to be ~~tidied~~ ~~up,~~ ~~but~~ ~~the~~ ~~main~~ ~~edit~~ is ~~finished.~~ ~~Comments~~ ~~and~~ ~~suggestions~~ on ~~any~~ ~~aspect~~ are ~~most~~ ~~welcome~~.] (]) 00:31, 15 ~~December~~ ~~2010~~ (UTC)		:I've no opinion on its correctness, but I find the revised version more readable. And I've no objection to editors being bold: we can always change it back if there are objections here. ] (]) 16:44, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
	:Nina I've pretty much got my hands full revising the SAQ according to the comments I got from the peer review request, so any input from me will have to wait. I imagine the article will stay close to the way it is now until Nishidani gets back in February. By that time I should have the SAQ article up to FA status (if it is ever to achieve it), and then I'll be able to chime in. Thanks for all you've done; it's good to have someone work on it who has a deep background. ] (]) 03:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

			::"Oxford" is correct. Peers are referred to by their titles, not their surnames. (We refer to ] and ], not "Wellesley" and "Gascoyne-Cecil".) There is a reason why it is referred to as the "Oxfordian theory", and not the "De Vere-ian theory". ] ] 17:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
	== Recent Edits ==

			:::I'm not arguing how 'Peers' refer to themselves. I wanted to add clarity, which was the only reason for the edit. ] (]) 06:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
	I'm not certain whom I'm addressing, 71.191.5.232, but you've contributed two recent edits:

			::::I did not say anything about how peers refer to themselves, so I'm not sure what relevance your first comment has. And it is the opposite of clear to use names which are not those commonly used. ] ] 10:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
	:::This is based on the great similarities between De Vere's life and the events and ideas in the plays attributed to "Williams Shakespeare." Edward de Vere's educational background, his experience in, and knowledge of, court life, and his personal circumstances closely coincide with the qualities of a writer who could have written the "Shakespearean" works. While a majority of scholars adhere to the traditional view of Will Shakper of Stratford as the author, many other scholars reject this claim and support the De Verean view. Almost no one supports any other claimant to the works of Shakespeare. Edward de Vere is the "most popular alternative candidate" simply because the common-sense evidence is overwhelming that he was the author.
			:::::FYI- Genealogically, for those directly related, it adds 'Clarity' amidst academic snobbery. ] (]) 14:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

			== The fart isn't mentioned ==
	and

			I was expecting to see a reference to the book '']'' by 17th century author ], which recounts a story of Edward de Vere, "... earle of Oxford, making his low obeisance to Queen Elizabeth, happened to let a fart, at which he was so abashed that he went to travell 7 yeares. On his returne the Queen welcomed him home and sayd 'My lord, I had forgot the fart.'" The story is mentioned in the article ] and cited to https://archive.org/details/briefliveschiefl02aubruoft/page/270 - which unfortunately seems to be a somewhat bowdlerized version.
	:::All of the cities Edward de Vere visited in Italy, including Venice, appear in the play the "Merchant of Venice", strong evidence that De Vere was the author of this play.

			It's likely apocryphal, but may fit in the plots and scandals section. As far as I can tell this does seem to be what he's known for in popular culture. ~] <small>(])</small> 20:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
	The Edward de Vere article is currently written from a neutral point of view. It chronicles the events in Oxford's life, citing sources for those events which are accepted by Misplaced Pages editors as reliable, but not drawing any conclusions for or against the authorship hypothesis from the events. Your two edits are a departure from those procedures, and I wonder if you would consider discussing them on this page.] (]) 23:27, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
			== WP:RS question on de Vere burial place ==

			Removed the paragraphs in Last Years claiming that an unpublished manuscript has "led to questions regarding his burial place," concerning that manuscript, including a lengthy quotation from the manuscript.
	If Edward de Vere "is presently the most popular alternative candidate proposed for the authorship of Shakespeare's works," would someone please tell me how they decided this? Did they take a poll? Has there been scientific study? How long has he been the most popular alternative? One year? five years? 60 years? Who was the most popular alternative before De Vere? Why is De Vere currently the most popular alternative? Have people gotten bored with the other alternatives? These are questions that come to mind after reading that statement. And surely they are worthy questions. If all the cities that De Vere visited in Italy showed up in "The Merchant of Venice" it wouldn't be a violation of the "neutal point of view" rule to point out that coincidences like this give credence to the view that he wrote the play in question. While such a view may well be a "fringe" and may well be nonsense, why would it violate any rules to point this out in the context of the authorship dispute?
			There's no citation for any reliable source raising any question about Oxford's burial. This appears to be purely WP:OR. The question is in the mind of the original poster of this material, not a reliable source.
			Further, devoting two paragraphs and a quotation to a primary source document not mentioned in any cited source seems disproportional. The actual records of de Vere's burial rate a single sentence. This material isn't appropriate for a wikipedia article.] (]) 01:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

			:{{u\|Bomagosh}}, could you enlighten us as to how you arrive at your judgement that the five sources in the material you deleted are not reliable? ] <sup>]</sup> 02:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
	Was the character of Polonius modeled off of Lord Burgley in the play Hamlet? Many scholars seem to think so. William Shakespeare of Stratord didn't know Burgley, but Edward de Vere did.
	::Remarkable evidence here. Was the character of Julius Caesar modeled off of Julius Caesar in the play Julius Caesar? Many scholars seem to think so. William Shakespeare of Stratford didn't know Caesar, but Cicero did. Ergo, Cicero wrote ''Julius Caesar''. ] (]) 23:47, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

			::None of the sources support your statement,"The absence of a grave marker and an unpublished manuscript written fifteen years after Oxford's death have led to questions regarding his burial place." The sources cited violate ] and ]. ] (]) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
	This statement makes absolutely no sense at all.

			:::No reliable source provided (or that I'm aware of) cites the sources in the material to raise questions about Oxford's burial place. If you find a reliable source where questions are raised by the existence of a distant relative's unpublished manuscript account that conflicts with two actual records of burial and the will of the man's widow expressing her desire to be buried in Hackney near her husband's body, cite that. There are no records that Oxford was ever disinterred from Hackney, or buried in Westminster. In the absence of any reliable source, the extensive speculation, in addition to the policy issued raised by @] above, also violate ]. ] (]) 03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
	The people who believe the traditional story about William Shakespeare are not interested in "neutral points of view". They are interested in destroying any effort on this page or others on Misplaced Pages to link Edward de Vere to the plays ostensibly written by William Shakespeare. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			:::: I don't have a dog in the race, but I did not find the mere mention of speculation regarding Oxford's burial place to be unjustified.
	:All ythe points you make are about what should be in the ] article, not this one. Misplaced Pages's rules require that this article should present a mainstream biography. That's why we have a separate article. ] (]) 12:46, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
			::::{{u\|Tom Reedy}}, to whom are you addressing the above "your statement"? I am not the originator of that passage. In an edit from a few years ago, I made a copyedit to that sentence, and re-wrote the next two for a more encyclopedic style, removing language that came across to me as sounding indignant (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=prev&oldid=1025640296h). You'll note that I also clarified the presentation of evidence that Oxford was buried at St Augustine.
	::A "mainstream biography" is perfectly capable of being wrong. If we're only able to write about what the majority thinks, then we're never going to make any progress. You don't take a poll to see if something's right. You examine the evidence and the facts. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::~~The~~ ~~purpose~~ of ~~wikipedia~~ is to ~~report~~ on the ~~consensus~~ of ~~mainstream~~ ~~scholarship,~~ ~~not~~ to ~~try~~ to ~~determine~~ ~~ourselves~~ what ~~the~~ ~~real~~ ~~truth~~ is. ] (]) 23:43, 28 ~~December~~ ~~2010~~ (UTC)		::::{{u\|Bomagosh}}, with "distant relative", are you saying that Percival Golding was not Oxford's first cousin? In the above-linked edit I state that he is, but I no longer know what led me to believe he was. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

			::::::<i>I am not the originator of that passage.</i> Pretty sure you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Edward_de_Vere,_17th_Earl_of_Oxford&diff=prev&oldid=1025640296 ] (]) 16:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
	There is no consensus on this question. That is when the entire group agrees. There is a large minority viewpoint on this issue, which is why that minority viewpoint can be rightly discussed in the course of the article.
			:::::::{{u\|Tom Reedy}}, did you mean to post the same link that I had already posted a couple lines above? That diff clearly shows what text was already there and what changes I made, so I'm wondering if you meant to paste a different link. Note that before I posted above, I searched for my edits to the article so I could see what I'd written and what I'd changed. ] <sup>]</sup> 20:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::You might want to click on the two links. And yes, you were the person who added the language being objected to. ] (]) 22:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sorry, I don't know what more I can do to help you understand this. Maybe it would help for you to review ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Bruh I posted a link to the diff clearly showing you are the originator of the objectionable phrase. You posted a link to the edited page. I think you're the one who needs to brush up on how to post WP article links. ] (]) 00:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
			:::::The premise to bring in the primary source document is the claim that the lack of grave marker and the manuscript led to "questions." This is a statement of fact that should be supported by a reliable source, since it's the premise for over 2000 characters of text being included in the article. If no reliable source has expressed the question, what's the justification for including this in Misplaced Pages?
			:::::Notably, in Nelson's biography of Oxford, Golding's statement concerning Oxford's burial is quoted, and Nelson, our secondary source quoted throughout the article, states that Golding erred as to both the burial site and to Oxford's membership in the Privy Council. Nelson also describes Golding as Oxford's "half-cousin, once removed." Golding's father was half-brother to Oxford's mother, one of eleven siblings and half siblings; and Percival was one of eight children of his father Arthur.
			:::::So our main secondary source for this article had read and reproduced this passage from Golding's manuscript, and unambiguously rejected it as erroneous. Unless some other reliable source exists that expresses questions about Oxford's burial site based on this document, there's no justification for this material's inclusion. ] (]) 15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
			:::::Further concerning "distant relative:" Beyond being, according to Alan Nelson, Oxford's "half-cousin, once removed," he was also 29 years younger, and not of Oxford's social rank -- a commoner. All this suggests that Golding would not have been particularly personally close to the earl. ] (]) 15:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Thanks for clarifying. ] <sup>]</sup> 18:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

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Congratulations

This is just to congratulate all the industrious scrubbers who have put in so many hours on the references to this article. This article, in this purified form, is destined to become a textbook case of the perversion of scholarship for purely doctrinaire ends, the exclusion of contrary opinion, and the sanitization of a historical record to conform to the intellectual rigidities of a corp of morons. Truly, a remarkable bibliography in every regard, one that students of critical thinking may learn from for a long time. Good work.

Dr. Stritmatter

SAQ in the WP:LEAD of this article

MaineJill, hello, and welcome to a WP:TALKPAGE. WP has plenty of SAQ articles, this is not one of them. The WP:LEAD in this article summarize the SAQ-section in this article (afaict, "Eighty-seven "alternative" authors" is just something WP says in the list article, it's not actually from a WP:RS). The proper amount of SAQ in this article is next to none. The lead here is not the place to go into details about SAQ. The current version is proper WP:WEIGHT for this article. "alternative candidates proposed" is not misleading, just short and inclomplete, which is fine in this context. Refs like are not very helpful, it's like saying "It's in that library somewhere, go find it". You may find the referencing "tool" found here Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup/3 helpful, there are others.

References

Shakespeare Documented: A multi-institutional resource documenting Shakespeare in his own time, National Archives, the British, Bodleian, and Folger Libraries, et al. https://shakespearedocumented.folger.edu/

I'm also unsure about some of your other WP:LEAD changes. The current version,

playwright, but "his violent and perverse temper" and "reckless waste" precluded him from attaining any courtly or governmental responsibility and resulted in the total loss of his extensive inheritance. In the 1888-1900 Dictionary of National Biography,

makes me ask why these "nameless" quotes are in the WP:LEAD and what is so stellar about the 1888-1900 Dictionary of National Biography that it must be mentioned in-text in this part of the article?

That's my view, we'll see if others have any. I'm not a lit PhD who's taught Shakespeare for decades, I've just been editing WP for awhile.

One more thing. SAQ is one of several... let's say conflict areas on WP, and the topic (wherever it appears) is under something called Discretionary sanctions. And, like I said at your talkpage, I still hope you like it here and decide to stay! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Yet another thing, about references in the WP:LEAD, see WP:LEADREF. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

If the SAQ is mentioned in the article, then I guess it should be reflected in the lead with due weight. There's no reason to have any refs though, as there's no reason to be quoting the DNB (particularly in the lead). Use the ODNB and don't cite it in the lead. ——Serial 10:17, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
- Controversial topics tend to have more refs in the lead (check at Jai Shri Ram for example), sometimes it seems to help a bit, but in general, if the WP:LEAD is done right, they should not be necessary. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
  I was sratching my head, asking "what on Earth is SAQ"? Not sure about lead inclusion. With the current coverage in the article, I would lean towards WP:UNDUE, but if it's true that he is one of the most popular Shakespeare candidates, it seems like this aspect may not be sufficiently covered in the article. Events and people referenced in conspiracy theories may be especially notable just because of their conspiracy associations. Just my two cents. (t · c) buidhe 12:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Buidhe. Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford/Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship has a sort of Evolution/Intelligent design relationship, in that there's no question that "the other topic" is WP:N on its own and has an enormous amount of sources, some even WP:RS. There's even an "Oxfordian" drama-film, Anonymous (Derek Jacobi!).

Per the spirit of WP:OTHER, compare how SAQ is mentioned in the other "big ones", William Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe and William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby (some would add Henry Neville (died 1615)). The current amount of SAQ in this article is quite reasonable, which of course doesn't mean it's perfect. But adding WP:LEAD only stuff is not a good idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:27, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

And to be clear, the current amount of SAQ in this article is the Since the 1920s, he has been among the most prominent alternative candidates proposed for the authorship of Shakespeare's works. lead-sentence and the Edward_de_Vere,_17th_Earl_of_Oxford#Oxfordian_theory_of_Shakespeare_authorship section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi GGS- First, thanks for your comments above. I just reverted your change to the wording at the end of the first paragraph of the lede, as I think the previous wording was more neutral. I think WP stamps things with the term "fringe theory" more than it should. Eric 17:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Wow, that was a rapid undo of my revert! Well, maybe I just have a different take on the tone of "fringe theory". Eric 17:51, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

As I see it, while the tone may not be considered "neutral" by all considerers, it's quite clearly WP:NPOV. Actually, I think even some Oxfordians may agree with the term, they just think it's a Alfred Wegener kind of fringe theory. Perhaps the next century will tell. The intention was to comply somewhat with MaineJill's argument, as I understood it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment I just wanted to make clear what MaineJill's main argument (repeated) is:

"We know WS wrote the plays in exactly the same way we know O was an earl: the historical record for both facts is extensive & unequivocal. There's 0 evidence for any alternative author. Oxfordianism is a textbook conspiracy theory."

And, to note that this, to my own view, is a strongly biased, POV argument. Thank you, warshy 18:29, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree. I made a comment to that effect on her talkpage. Eric 18:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

For a certain value of "evidence" there is more than 0. For example, the lifespans of O and S partly overlaps, that is evidence. They were both poets, that is evidence. But the evidence for Will, compared to any of the 87 or whatever, makes any other candidate a fringe theory. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:10, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

You may be right, when you "compare." But when you look at all the evidence for Will just by itself, I don't think you get to a value of say, 60%. Not over 50, I feel. And herein is the rub. When all the lacunae are systematically described, it does make you scratch your head, I think. warshy 20:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Name change from "Oxford" to "De Vere"

Hello all- Dositheus has changed apparently every instance of "Oxford", where used as de Vere's name, to "De Vere". While some may find this preferable, I think such a change would merit discussion here before implementation. Eric 14:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I've no opinion on its correctness, but I find the revised version more readable. And I've no objection to editors being bold: we can always change it back if there are objections here. AndyJones (talk) 16:44, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

"Oxford" is correct. Peers are referred to by their titles, not their surnames. (We refer to Wellington and Salisbury, not "Wellesley" and "Gascoyne-Cecil".) There is a reason why it is referred to as the "Oxfordian theory", and not the "De Vere-ian theory". Proteus (Talk) 17:21, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not arguing how 'Peers' refer to themselves. I wanted to add clarity, which was the only reason for the edit. Dositheus (talk) 06:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I did not say anything about how peers refer to themselves, so I'm not sure what relevance your first comment has. And it is the opposite of clear to use names which are not those commonly used. Proteus (Talk) 10:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

FYI- Genealogically, for those directly related, it adds 'Clarity' amidst academic snobbery. Dositheus (talk) 14:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The fart isn't mentioned

I was expecting to see a reference to the book Brief Lives by 17th century author John Aubrey, which recounts a story of Edward de Vere, "... earle of Oxford, making his low obeisance to Queen Elizabeth, happened to let a fart, at which he was so abashed that he went to travell 7 yeares. On his returne the Queen welcomed him home and sayd 'My lord, I had forgot the fart.'" The story is mentioned in the article flatulence humor and cited to https://archive.org/details/briefliveschiefl02aubruoft/page/270 - which unfortunately seems to be a somewhat bowdlerized version.

It's likely apocryphal, but may fit in the plots and scandals section. As far as I can tell this does seem to be what he's known for in popular culture. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:RS question on de Vere burial place

Removed the paragraphs in Last Years claiming that an unpublished manuscript has "led to questions regarding his burial place," concerning that manuscript, including a lengthy quotation from the manuscript. There's no citation for any reliable source raising any question about Oxford's burial. This appears to be purely WP:OR. The question is in the mind of the original poster of this material, not a reliable source. Further, devoting two paragraphs and a quotation to a primary source document not mentioned in any cited source seems disproportional. The actual records of de Vere's burial rate a single sentence. This material isn't appropriate for a wikipedia article.Bomagosh (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Bomagosh, could you enlighten us as to how you arrive at your judgement that the five sources in the material you deleted are not reliable? Eric 02:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

None of the sources support your statement,"The absence of a grave marker and an unpublished manuscript written fifteen years after Oxford's death have led to questions regarding his burial place." The sources cited violate WP:PRIMARY and WP:OR. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

No reliable source provided (or that I'm aware of) cites the sources in the material to raise questions about Oxford's burial place. If you find a reliable source where questions are raised by the existence of a distant relative's unpublished manuscript account that conflicts with two actual records of burial and the will of the man's widow expressing her desire to be buried in Hackney near her husband's body, cite that. There are no records that Oxford was ever disinterred from Hackney, or buried in Westminster. In the absence of any reliable source, the extensive speculation, in addition to the policy issued raised by @Tom Reedy above, also violate WP:WEIGHT. Bomagosh (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a dog in the race, but I did not find the mere mention of speculation regarding Oxford's burial place to be unjustified.

Tom Reedy, to whom are you addressing the above "your statement"? I am not the originator of that passage. In an edit from a few years ago, I made a copyedit to that sentence, and re-wrote the next two for a more encyclopedic style, removing language that came across to me as sounding indignant (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=prev&oldid=1025640296h). You'll note that I also clarified the presentation of evidence that Oxford was buried at St Augustine.

Bomagosh, with "distant relative", are you saying that Percival Golding was not Oxford's first cousin? In the above-linked edit I state that he is, but I no longer know what led me to believe he was. Eric 13:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I am not the originator of that passage. Pretty sure you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Edward_de_Vere,_17th_Earl_of_Oxford&diff=prev&oldid=1025640296 Tom Reedy (talk) 16:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Tom Reedy, did you mean to post the same link that I had already posted a couple lines above? That diff clearly shows what text was already there and what changes I made, so I'm wondering if you meant to paste a different link. Note that before I posted above, I searched for my edits to the article so I could see what I'd written and what I'd changed. Eric 20:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

You might want to click on the two links. And yes, you were the person who added the language being objected to. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know what more I can do to help you understand this. Maybe it would help for you to review WP:DIFF. Eric 12:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Bruh I posted a link to the diff clearly showing you are the originator of the objectionable phrase. You posted a link to the edited page. I think you're the one who needs to brush up on how to post WP article links. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The premise to bring in the primary source document is the claim that the lack of grave marker and the manuscript led to "questions." This is a statement of fact that should be supported by a reliable source, since it's the premise for over 2000 characters of text being included in the article. If no reliable source has expressed the question, what's the justification for including this in Misplaced Pages?

Notably, in Nelson's biography of Oxford, Golding's statement concerning Oxford's burial is quoted, and Nelson, our secondary source quoted throughout the article, states that Golding erred as to both the burial site and to Oxford's membership in the Privy Council. Nelson also describes Golding as Oxford's "half-cousin, once removed." Golding's father was half-brother to Oxford's mother, one of eleven siblings and half siblings; and Percival was one of eight children of his father Arthur.

So our main secondary source for this article had read and reproduced this passage from Golding's manuscript, and unambiguously rejected it as erroneous. Unless some other reliable source exists that expresses questions about Oxford's burial site based on this document, there's no justification for this material's inclusion. Bomagosh (talk) 15:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Further concerning "distant relative:" Beyond being, according to Alan Nelson, Oxford's "half-cousin, once removed," he was also 29 years younger, and not of Oxford's social rank -- a commoner. All this suggests that Golding would not have been particularly personally close to the earl. Bomagosh (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Eric 18:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

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