| Revision as of 06:33, 5 March 2006 editStbalbach (talk | contribs)24,748 edits →San Francisco Chronicle story← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 01:12, 28 February 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk | contribs)Bots7,237,970 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 5 WikiProject templates. Keep majority rating "B" in {{WPBS}}. Remove 4 same ratings as {{WPBS}} in {{WikiProject Biography}}, {{WikiProject College football}}, {{WikiProject National Football League}}, {{WikiProject United States}}.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion |
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{{authoronlinesource2004|section=September |
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{{ITN talk|24 April|2004}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|living=no|listas=Tillman, Pat|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=Low|sports-work-group=yes|sports-priority=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|B-Class-1=yes|B-Class-2=yes|B-Class-3=yes|B-Class-4=yes|B-Class-5=yes|Biography=yes|US-task-force=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low|AZ=Yes|AZ-importance=High}} |
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{{Online source |
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| year=2004 |
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|section=September |
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|author=Jon Scott |
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|author=Jon Scott |
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|title=Week 2: Patriots Head To The Desert |
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|title=Week 2: Patriots Head To The Desert |
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|org=Patriots Insider |
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|org=Patriots Insider |
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|date=September 18, 2004 |
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|date=], ] |
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|url=http://patriots.theinsiders.com/2/296002.html}} |
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|url=http://patriots.theinsiders.com/2/296002.html |
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Shouldn't there be some mention of Tillman's conviction and imprisonment for assault, when he was a juvenile? ] (]) 13:04, 3 November 2023 (UTC) |
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=="far-left" Rall== |
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calling Rall "far-left" is just one more piece of sensationalism among all this other nonsense. as Rall's wiki says, he wanted clinton impeached, opposes practically all gun control, and has (pretty pointedly) ridiculed john kerry, among other democrat campaigners. and most of his war-related cartoons aren't coherent enough to be partisan. apparently for the fools around here, saying bad things about the military makes a person "far-left." it's a dangerous and idiotic premise. |
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== Prof Michael I. Niman == |
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==San Jose native?== |
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In its headline for covering the AP story, the San Jose Mercury News calls Tillman a "] native", but doesn't cite any evidence (birthplate etc.). Anyone know? -- ] | ] 01:36, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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Who is Prof. Michael I. Niman and why is he quoted in this article? It would make sense for the article to explain why he has authority in this subject. |
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:Looks like he was born in San Jose ] 02:05, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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] (]) 11:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC) |
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Does anyone else find it really freakish that the article was started a week before Tilman died? Eek. ] 02:16, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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== Request for comment on description of Tillman's killing == |
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:I started the article last week after I saw ] was on ]. I was a bit freaked out when I saw the news this morning. -- ] 02:46, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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The circumstances of Tillman's killing are disputed, with indications towards both manslaughter and accident. The current description of the cause of death as ] gives (in my opinion) too strong an impression of the latter. I believe we ought to find a more neutral way to describe it. ] (]) 13:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:That is indeed freakish! ] |
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*'''Support''' Although I personally believe that he was killed in friendly fire, that bit in the lede should be made more neutral. ~ ]] 22:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Attribute''' in the lead (note that we already attribute it in the body.) Most of the sources, especially higher-quality ones, are carefully-worded and say that eg. his death was eventually ruled to be friendly fire by congressional investigations or by the investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command; our article reflects that, so the lead should as well. I would be skeptical about ''replacing'' the word because almost any other word would carry implications that aren't well-backed-up by the sources, but given that the circumstances of his death were at least clearly disputed ''at the time'', if for different reasons than this RFC is focused on, I don't think it weakens things too much to note the source of the final legal determinations. This is comparable to how we word coverage of crimes (stating X was found guilty by Y rather than overtly stating guilt in the article voice); while this wasn't strictly a criminal investigation it was in many respects similar. Note that this might require a degree of rewording and restructuring to the lead (I would personally prefer to avoid wording like {{tq|were the subject of national attention when he was killed in action as a result of what a congressional investigation determined was friendly fire}}, since wedging it in there sort of implies doubt; whereas it would be better if we could split and rearrange stuff so we can say something like {{tq|Investigations by the Department of Defense and U.S. Congress eventually concluded that Tillman's death was the result of ]}}, which seems like neutral wording to me when dealing with a legal determination that was at a bare minimum controversial or shocking at the time.) --] (]) 22:28, 12 November 2020 (UTC) |
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*'''Attribute''' per ].] (]) 18:35, 14 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Links in the Article == |
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== Some simple facts == |
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I delinked "killed in action" as it linked to a page which was for defining KIA as "killed in action". "KIA" wasn't used in the article, so the link was linking to a page which had no useful information. ] 22:13, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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Some things may be in dispute, but some shouldn't be. |
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: Yes, that's true now. But in a few years time that may not necessily be so. It's quite reasonable, for example, to imagine the KIA article being updated with various militaries' rules for calling someone "KIA" as opposed to "missing presumed killed", MIA, etc., links to some future memorial wiki, or other stuff one can't imagine now. Equally (I'm stretching things for this case, but not for others) someone could go to ] and hit "what links here" and get a list of those people so designated (yeah, it'll be very far from comprehensive, but it's a start). So, in general, I don't think that because an article is useless now (you right in saying that for the purposes of the Tillman article, the KIA one mostly is useless) doesn't mean it will always be so, and so that isn't a great criterion as to whether one should link to it. This particular case, I'll grant, is marginal. -- ] | ] 00:05, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC) |
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:What was his precise rank (E-4, E-5, or whatever) at his death? What was his function in his unit, and how many soldiers if any were under his command? Was he commanding Serial 1? Was the incident in daylight or night? What were Tillman's wounds? Were there other casualties during the incident?] (]) 02:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Results? == |
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:: Well, when the KIA article says something relevant to this article, no doubt someone will link it again :-)....but for now, it just added clutter. Linking too many words is not good style, it makes text hard to read. ] |
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"According to AP analysis, three lower-level officers are expected to be punished, and Kauzlarich may be one of the three." And...? ] (]) 03:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Article Introduction == |
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I don't think it is right to ''first'' include Tillman's posthumous rank in the Army along with his name in the intro. In biography pages on Misplaced Pages, if I am not mistaken, simply the person's name is listed. See for example, ], ], ], and ]. None of these articles state the person's military rank, just the name, and then later give the rank. ] 22:52, 10 May 2004 (UTC) |
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== Media coverage of his brother's eulogy and blog coverage in general == |
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Supposedly they pulled their coverage of the funeral because of what his brother said about Pat not being religious, or the way he said it. |
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If someone would like to spend 20 minutes summarizing the blog coverage of all this, I think it would really add to this page. |
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Here's a good starting point: |
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL |
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== Gonzalez article hostile to Tillman == |
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I moved the in-text link to the "External links" section. The Gonzalez article is part of the story. Reporting it and linking to it are NPOV. If we remove that link because it, standing alone, is POV, then we'd have to remove pretty much all the other links, which are laudatory. I also de-wikified Gonzalez's name; at one point there was a stub for him, but I think there was a consensus that he didn't merit his own article. ] 00:16, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC) |
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== Ted Rall's cartoon == |
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I changed the word "genocidal" to "misled." The cartoon makes no mention of genocide; it suggests that Tillman was foolish to belief in the "War on Terror" (which Rall openly mocks) and blames the administration for deceiving Tillman. Regardless of whether Ted Rall is right or wrong in those assertions, "genocidal" has nothing to do with the cartoon and to use that word is decidedly POV. --] 01:10, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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:Um...Rall's cartoon depicts Tillman signing up to "kill Arabs". Sounds like an accusation of genocide to me. - ] 01:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
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::The point is he believes Tillman was being duped. And there's a big difference between wanting someone dead and being genocidal. --] 02:17, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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:::There's not a ''big'' difference between wanting someone dead because they're Arab and being genocidal....to me, anyway. your mileage may differ - ] 03:40, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC) |
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::Having said that, I think your edit is appropriate. --] 02:19, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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==Photo Caption Incorrect?== |
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I'm pretty sure that this is a photo of Tillman graduating from Ranger School, not from Army Basic. |
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* The photo is indeed of Specialist Tillman's Basic Training graduation. Ranger School graduation is conducted wearing the army BDU uniform, not the Class "A" dress uniform. Also, if you look at the marching soldiers in the background, no "black and gold" Ranger tabs are visible on the upper left shoulders. Tillman's left shoulder is not clear in this photo, but the new tab would be saftey-pinned on at a grad ceremony, not yet sewn flush to the fabric, and therefore likely to be seen even from this view. ] 12:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC) |
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== ASOC assertion of enemy forces == |
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In the Biography section, there are the following assertions, which are unaccompanied by any corroboration. |
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''Army Special Operations Command, however, claims an exchange with hostile forces. They are correct.'' |
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Rather than just deleting this, I offer an interval for discussion and clarification. |
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== use this info. == |
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http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL |
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== Is it my imagination or did this happen? == |
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Pat Tillman dies. The right wing make him into a Jesus 2.0 and the left had a "mixed" reaction to his death. |
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Then when we find out he: |
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*got killed by friendly fire, |
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*oposed the war in Iraq, |
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*was a Democrat, |
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*was going to vote for Kerry, |
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*was into Noam Chomsky. |
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Suddenly the left hails him as a martyr and the right either drops him faster than a burning dog turd or distances themselves from him and tries to suppress any mention of him ASAP. |
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== stuff == |
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121262,00.html |
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http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/Tendential_Revolution/tillmanstower.html |
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http://www.theadventuresofchester.com/archives/2004/12/blogs_of_war_de.html |
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== To Grazon == |
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Look, you can't say things like "the right wing made Pat Tillman into a ]". Plenty of people on the left praised Tillman too, don't forget that. The word "martyr" is exaggerative and there's no reason to use it. You can't use phrases like "republican agenda". You can't claim that the right wing is trying to "promote ... Christianity" in an article - that is all your opinion. The rest of your addition is a bunch of random out of context quotes from some articles and message board posts. Why do the readers care what someone said on Free Republic? Last, you claim that "These people assumned that Tillman was conservative, right wing, a Republican, a Christian, a supporter of the Iraq war, a supporter of George Bush, and that he had been killed by enemy fire." It's your belief that they assumed these things - however, the columns you link to don't speculate about Tillman's political beliefs. ] 03:51, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:How people feel about this is very important to portray in an article. We just need to find an encyclopedic way to portray those feelings. The editor's opinion cannot be assumed to represent the feelings of the whole world. At the very least, the opinion cited needs to be authoritative and include alternate views. In a best case scenario, we can cite a source that everyone agrees is NPOV. It isn't that we don't want your opinion represented, Grazon, its just that it needs to be done in an encyclopedic way. --] 14:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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Ok I'll also give it a temperary title |
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grazon 20:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:Could you please justify the inclusion of the section? If you won't discuss why you believe the article should have a bunch of random contextless quotes, the section will just be removed again. ] 20:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::I'm DEFINITELY not a Republican/right-winger, but that section is hardly encyclopaedic or NPOV, and the formatting is awful. I'd suggest NPOVing the mention of those quotes by at least putting them in some informative context (who said the quotes and when) and integrating them into the "Hostility towards Tillman" section, since those are responses to that hostility. ] 21:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:Calling a set of actions an Iconization is a conclusion that not everyone would agree with. If you are willing to take the time to edit this like an encyclopedia, you will succeed in getting your point across, but I'm sure you realize that an NPOV article can't have a conclusion as a title. --] 20:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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::I'm puzzled - how is "iconization" any better than "martyrdom"? They express the same POV, that the right wing embraced Tillman excessively. It's an equally poor section title. As Zephram says, it's expressing a conclusion as if it was a fact. ] 20:51, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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I thought it was better. |
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my bad. |
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grazon 21:00, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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== RfC == |
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I waded in here in response to the RFC for this article, and tried to make some improvements w.r.t. NPOV; also added important fact that a new investigation has been started. |
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] 22:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC) |
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== Dear Rhobite == |
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The "Controversial critisisms" section of the Pat Tillman article is incredibly unbalanced. It takes three swipes at the left wing, with nothing to balance them out. The third paragraph remarkably uses the word "responded" despite being the third blatant attack on the left. That's why I've been removing part of it. If you want to add some of Frank Rich's article, at http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/110605Z.shtml, that would bring balance to the section. |
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:Not everything has to be balanced. There was a massive backlash to Rall's comic and Gonzalez's column.. we shouldn't pretend that these events didn't happen because we're afraid of presenting the left in a bad light. Feel free to improve it however you like, but don't just remove paragraphs with no edit summary and no justification. If you'd like to cover Frank Rich's opinion piece, go for it. However I just read Rich's piece and he doesn't really say anything new about the Tillman controversy, he just uses Tillman as an example of the Bush administration's tendency to play around with the truth. ] 06:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== "Fox News" cite == |
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I deleted "The fact that Tillman objected to the War in Iraq has now even been accepted by Foxnews. " |
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because it seemed irrelevant and not completely accurate. The link goes to a guest commentator's op-ed piece, and does not necessarliy reflect "Fox News." The opinions in the Op-ed piece don't add much to what is already in the "anti-war revelations" section of the article.--] 21:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== joke == |
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Stop confusing me with your logic FRS! |
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== Controversial criticism == |
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It struck me as being rather unbalanced that the quote by Ben Johnson takes an entire paragraph, while the criticism to which it is responding are only quoted partially. This is particularly true since the quote spends a lot of time re-introducing facts about Tillman which anyone reading the article would already know. |
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I'm going to edit it down a bit. Perhaps we can find more responses by other conservative sources to add to that paragraph. --] 16:56, 7 December 2005 (UTC) |
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: For reference, the quote was: |
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:: Conservative columnist Ben Johnson responded: "With the body barely cold, the Left has begun demonizing the late Pat Tillman. Tillman is the former NFL star who turned down a $3.6 million contract to join the Army Rangers after 9/11. He was killed last month in Afghanistan after Islamist soldiers ambushed his jeep. For most Americans, such noble service would qualify Tillman as a national hero, but it has unleashed a torrent of hatred on the Left.....the latest chapter in leftist hatred for Tillman...It is hardly surprising that this kind of rhetoric is found – in the midst of a war, no less – on the Left and on college campuses." |
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: Anyway, I tried to edit it down, but I would rather try to find a more coherent source than this, unless this quote was itself very influential. There's just not much content to it: some stuff about Tillman we already know, and a little political mudslinging, which you could find anywhere. --] 17:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC) |
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== rightie? lol == |
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http://celiberal.com/phpBB/search.php?mode=results |
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== San Francisco Chronicle story == |
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An anonymous user keeps removing the SF Chronicle story about Tillman's left-wing politics, claiming that it's "POV hearsay rubbish". But this is all properly cited and attributed to the Chronicle. So I have to wonder, is this person accusing the Chronicle of fabricating the entire story? Since this is all attributed, there is no reason for removing the text. Feel free to add text which cites someone who doubts the accuracy of the SF Chronicle story. ] 02:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:I agree with you, 67.15.76.188 is out of line, I support keeping it in the article. -- ] 02:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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It's hearsay and it's biased POV hearsay at that. If you don't understand that, then you'll never understand why I don't log in for edits like this. ] 06:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:You should log in, ] are against the rules. -- ] 06:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==Anti-war== |
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I'm confused. If Tillman was anti-war, why did he join the Rangers, an elite combat unit? If he became anti-war after joining the Rangers, why didn't he quit the Rangers? As I understand it, soldiers can quit the Rangers any time and elect to be reassigned elsewhere. Rangers are Rangers because they ''want'' to fight America's wars. ] 06:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==Promotion== |
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A "promotion" from Specialist to Corporal is considered a "lateral promotion" as it doesn't involve a change in pay grade. ] 06:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC) |
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Who is Prof. Michael I. Niman and why is he quoted in this article? It would make sense for the article to explain why he has authority in this subject.
Mosquitoer2 (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The circumstances of Tillman's killing are disputed, with indications towards both manslaughter and accident. The current description of the cause of death as friendly fire gives (in my opinion) too strong an impression of the latter. I believe we ought to find a more neutral way to describe it. Konli17 (talk) 13:54, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
Some things may be in dispute, but some shouldn't be.
"According to AP analysis, three lower-level officers are expected to be punished, and Kauzlarich may be one of the three." And...? 104.153.40.58 (talk) 03:54, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
