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In the first paragraph under "Background" I believe that the statement "the fleshly return of Jesus Christ" should be changed to something more neutral like "the physical return" or "the corporeal return". Blind-Guard04 (talk) 15:08, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done I think all these variations are neutral, but I changed it to "physical return" because that sounds less archaic. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:10, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Japan section

I asked elsewhere about the content cited to Japanese sources. There's one comment in particular I think should have greater visibility: It looks like this was an internet survey instead of a criminal investigation, which would be important to clarify. Courtesy ping to Erynamrod. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Update: I believe I have fixed this. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

About all my recent edits

In case anyone is wondering why exactly I have been making a flurry of edits... I've been trying to get this article in the best shape I can before I seek a mentor for the WP:FAC process and I guess I've just been extra motivated lately. Courtesy ping to Vanamonde93. I'm not quite there yet, but I've been making progress. My plan is to finish what I've started, then wait a bit to see if anyone has any objections to what I've been doing, and then perform a self-review of sorts. I'll ping you again when I've got all that done. Does that sound like a good plan? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Kudos to you—great progress! KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 11:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely been time consuming. I think I've spent about twenty hours on this in the past week? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to Jeffro77 as well because you're the main other editor in this topic area and I'd want to make sure you're okay with these changes before I'd go leaping into FAC. I think I've done a lot of good work here, but a second eyes on some of the more complicated theology concepts is always appreciated. I could send a copy of specific pages I'm citing over email if that'd help. Of course you're not obligated to do anything, but I do know that you've been pretty enthusiastic about JW articles for years so I figured you might appreciate the offer. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation on "shunning"

"Congregational disciplinary actions include formal expulsion and shunning, for what they consider serious offenses. Baptized people who formally leave are considered disassociated and are also shunned. Former members may experience significant mental distress as a result of being shunned, and some seek reinstatement to keep contact with their friends and family."

This information is incorrect. I grew up in a JW household where my sister was disfellowshipped not disassociated and where I as an unbaptized JW was able to become "inactive" but not "shunned".

The correct information is this: If you are baptized within the organization you are held to the belief that you have committed yourself to Jehovah (God) and therefore any serious transgressions will result in disfellowshipment. This includes; fornication, adultery, thievery, excessive use of alcohol, and prescription drugs or any use of tobacco or narcotics among other things. There are numerous articles on JW.org to explain their belief. It is incorrect to say that members are disassociated as that is a completely different disciplinary action than disfellowshipping. To be disassociated means that you have confessed to an offense which would likely disfellowship you but have repented and can have limited association with the congregation while you resolve your situation. Disfellowshipment means you have confessed to an offense but do not repent so therefore you are removed from association with the congregation. This is a VERY important distinguishment as well as being Inactive. Inactive members were not baptized and are able to have association with any member of the congregation at any time, including in partaking in meals because they did not commit themselves to God through baptism.

Here is a link to disfellowshipping on JW.org https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/Insight-on-the-Scriptures/Expelling/

Here is a link to disassociating on JW.org https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/resign/

Here is a link to inactive members https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/201987404?q=inactive&p=doc

There are many articles on the 'Why" and even though I am not a JW anymore, I respect my family that is and would like to see accurate information on Misplaced Pages, not information from people that have an emotional bias against the religion.

Thank you. Number1Foodie (talk) 21:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@Number1Foodie: There already is a distinction made between disfellowshipping and diassociation (that's why it says "formally leave", but I realize that this may be unclear so I will change it to "leave voluntarily"). As an encyclopedia, primary sources like jw.org are discouraged. Reliable sources that are independent of the religious group are what is meant to be cited, which is what is used here. Anecdotal experiences are also not considered to be reliable. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

The lead only summarizes the article as a whole, there's more detail in Jehovah's Witnesses#Disciplinary action. Your personal experience would match what is described as "fading": Some adherents "fade" and stop attending meetings without being subject to the group's disciplinary procedures, although some former members have still experienced shunning through this method. There is very limited outside analysis on this phenomenon, which is why there's only the one sentence there. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Anyways, I think this edit should resolve your concerns? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Also to be disassociated means that you have confessed to an offense which would likely disfellowship you but have repented and can have limited association with the congregation while you resolve your situation is not how it works. That's marking (which again, is explained in the article already). Disassociation and disfellowshipping are different, but they have the same consequences. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look at it and providing edits. 74.205.137.214 (talk) 00:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

"serious transgressions will result in disfellowshipment. This includes; fornication, adultery, thievery, excessive use of alcohol" Are there any rules against violent crimes and extrajudicial killing? Dimadick (talk) 12:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

@Dimadick: They consider abortion to be murder and disfellowship people for that, as is already explained in the article (see the list of serious sins in the displinary action section). As for the more accepted definition of murder, that would also get one disfellowshipped, but I need to find a source to add it there because it'd be original research otherwise. I've been trying to read numerous books to flesh out the content in this topic area, but some topics come up less often than others and indexes don't always show what I'm looking for. Generally authors focus on the more common reasons for being disfellowshipped like sexual misconduct or apostasy (disagreeing with official beliefs). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

An FAQ section?

Some controversial articles have an FAQ section on the talk page. Maybe we should have one? I haven't been following this article as long as Jeffro77 so I'll wait when they're back from their wikibreak to see if there's many subjects they have seen be discussed on a recurring basis. I'm mostly going off memory in regards to the recent "Jehovah's Witnesses are" vs "Jehovah's Witnesses is" change. It'd be helpful to have links to previous discussions on this sort of thing. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to JethAgape. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Lead image

Courtesy ping to Daddynnoob, who I reverted earlier today . I'm open to having a discussion here on why you think the lead image should be the jw.org logo instead of the Jehovah's Witnesses preaching. I think a logo would make more sense for a business than a religious group. I've taken some time to look at List of Christian denominations to see what the general trend is. It seems like it's usually photographs of important buildings? I don't think we have a photo of the Warwick headquarters. The main exception to this trend appears to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which uses their logo. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Clovermoss Greetings. My apologies for my mistake, especially the change was based on the LDS church logo on its article, but I'm not aware about how this is not suitable for JW. Btw, besides the preaching image for the lead image, do you think an image of Kingdom Hall is fine for it and putting the JW website logo not as a not lead image? Daddynnoob (talk) 02:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

You don't have to apologize, I just think we should discuss it (and wait for other people to chip in too). I thought a photo of JWs was more visually appealing than a logo and a bunch of the sources I've been reading lately have said stuff like "Jehovah's Witnesses are well known for their door-to-door evangelism". Sometimes the phrasing is even stronger than that, like "perhaps best known". So it seemed like a good idea. A Kingdom Hall photo might work, though. If we do go that route, I'd prefer it be the one showing the interior and people worshipping instead of the rather plain exterior. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Clovermoss Alright, I see. Thanks, Clover Daddynnoob (talk) 02:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I see that you've replaced the previous preaching image with a new one. While I'm not opposed to a new image, I do think a replacement one should be a relatively high quality photo? To be honest, neither is nessecarily the best one to have, but the one you've replaced it with has some sun glare. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:47, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Most of the pictures I saw related to JW are Kingdom Halls, but sure I can find one that is suitable for you Daddynnoob (talk) 03:51, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I tried to find a higher quality image of JWs preaching myself. Surprisingly there's not many options. I would take a photo myself but I feel like that'd be hard to do in my local area for obvious reasons. @Rhododendrites: you're like the best photographer I know and you've taken a lot of photos in places like parks, right? Any chance you've ever run into JWs preaching and snapped a photo before? Or maybe the next time you see a group, you could ask? They're generally pretty friendly to outsiders. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about this picture since it's a typical door-to-door preaching of JW, although it was uploaded in 2007 so it does not has the best quality? Daddynnoob (talk) 06:30, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: Thanks for the compliment. :) I do take pictures in parks, but rarely of people. I'm fairly certain I've never taken photos of Jehovah's Witnesses. I can't say I've ever seen them going door to door here in NY, but I do see them with literature carts in parks and other areas with a lot of foot traffic. Are you looking for just, like, something similar to the current lead image but a bit better quality? I also know of a Kingdom Hall in Flatbush, though it looks like we have a decent picture of that already. — Rhododendrites \\ 15:16, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rhododendrites: Yeah, a higher quality option would be nice and what I'd be looking for. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Don't know when, but I'll keep it in the back of my head. — Rhododendrites \\ 15:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Possible options for a lead image

Given the discussion above, I wanted to present some options from what is currently available on Wikimedia Commons.

• This was used as the lead image for years, a similar choice is made in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article (option 1)
• An image of Jehovah's Witnesses preaching door-to-door (option 2)
• Another door-to-door image (option 3)
• The current lead image for the past week or so (option 4)
• The former world headquarters in Brooklyn (option 5)
• The current world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses in Warwick (option 6)
• A Kingdom Hall (option 7)

Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Only options 1 and 6 would be properly representative of the denomination as a whole.--Jeffro77 Talk 01:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

@Jeffro77 I wonder if Hannah is okay with the first option. If still not, then the sixth option is the only one, especially I've been looking for this for a long time Daddynnoob (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd be okay with image 6. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

@Clovermoss I see Daddynnoob (talk) 01:50, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not my first preference but if it's what we all can agree on then I'm alright with it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm going to wait a few days for further feedback, but in the meantime options 3, 5, and 7 are incorporated into more relevant sections. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:01, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I have now implemented option 6. If this ends up being more controversial in the future, a formal RfC could be initiated. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Clovermoss Much appreciated Daddynnoob (talk) 09:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Recent edit

@Jeffro77: I disagree that it is "mundane" to clarify that there are varying estimates as to how many Jehovah's Witnesses left during this timeframe. When reliable sources disagree, all perspectives should be included.

I also disagree with the removal of "overlapping generation" from the same edit. I never claimed it was the formal name of the doctrine. The source describes the changes as being part of an "overlapping generation" (specifically, it says this on page 125: "A further clarification was made in 2010, when the word 'generation' was held to denote not only the 1914 generation but also those whose lives overlapped with those who received the heavenly calling and were alive at that date"). I think it's useful context to the average reader because a non-JW would not consider a generation to overlap in that way. I also think the previous phrasing is more true to the source.

I have no issues with the other changes. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

The fact that there are various views is not in itself mundane, but the fact that different views mean different estimates is mundane. The paragraph doesn't offer any specific number of members that left (only some proportions separately, which do not disagree with each other or with Rogerson), so saying that one source says the numbers are unclear comes across as self-evident.

The Watch Tower Society never calls it an 'overlapping generation' doctrine either in the source provided here or anywhere else, it is only an ad hoc description of the relatively abstruse change. The official teaching is not that there 'is an overlapping generation' but that 'the generation' broadly includes people where some part of their lifespan overlaps. In conventional terms, it isn't even actually the case that there are 'two consecutive overlapping generations'. Contemporary names of 'generations' vary and are not especially useful here, but the two 'generations' in question would loosely be the 'Lost Generation' and 'Gen X' based on the current actual JW definition of 'generation'. As such, it isn't necessary for the main JW article to get 'lost in the weeds' about it.--Jeffro77 Talk 04:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I still disagree with you about Rogerson's claim because he doesn't think a clear estimate can even be made. Immediately afterwards, there's estimates in the text (although the order of this should probably be rearranged). Since all the cited sources are reliable, all of these positions should be represented.

As for The official teaching is not that there 'is an overlapping generation' but that 'the generation' broadly includes people where some part of their lifespan overlaps, yes that's why I think the previous phrasing is important because it makes that slightly clearer. It doesn't matter to the average reader what the teaching's official name is, just what it means. While contemporary generation ranges vary, anyone who isn't a JW (or former JW) wouldn't label a whole century of individuals together as a single generation. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you alright with this change? I'm hoping it'll satisfy us both. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem with that change. Thanks.—Jeffro77 Talk 10:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Lead sentence

I'm starting a discussion per this edit. I'll also note that most sources tend to establish Jehovah's Witnesses connection with the Bible Students before talking about other labels. Courtesy pings to Levivich (who was involved in the original discussion) and Jeffro77. I have since self-reverted because the text was not added a few months ago, but on December 12 in this edit. I still think that edit is a much better lead in line with MOS:FIRST and just generally what a lead should be. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The suggested alternative is not a better first sentence, for a few reasons. MOS:FIRST recommends that the first sentence be a direct statement about what the article subject is—a Christian denomination—rather than starting with elaboration about its historical development. Secondly, the alternative lead employed weasily phrasing about what the denomination is ‘considered to be’. Thirdly, the edit reintroduced incorrect grammar that does not reflect that the name of the denomination is properly a singular compound proper noun. Further (and related), despite the fact that JWs might favour a public perception that they are autonomously-minded individuals who are each ‘witnesses of Jehovah’ (a theological claim and not a neutral point of view) who make up ‘a group of Christians’, it is in reality a highly regulated hierarchical denomination.—Jeffro77 Talk 11:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll reiterate that what I said above: most sources tend to establish Jehovah's Witnesses connection with the Bible Students before talking about other labels. The historical development is crucial to understanding what Jehovah's Witnesses are and is much more useful context to the reader than a WP:LEADLINK full of other labels. That's why I placed them at the end of the first paragraph. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Presentation of information on Misplaced Pages isn’t governed by how other sources treat subjects. The reasons I have already given are sound.—Jeffro77 Talk 21:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)—Jeffro77 Talk 21:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

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