| Revision as of 12:35, 26 March 2006 editAucaman (talk | contribs)2,729 edits →RESPONDING TO THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 15:09, 24 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,292,502 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Iranian Jews/Archive 2) (bot | ||
| (811 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Talk header}} | |||
| ==famous persian jews?== | |||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | |||
| Are ], ] and ] considered to be "famous persian jews"? | |||
| | archive = Talk:Iranian Jews/Archive %(counter)d | |||
| | counter = 2 | |||
| | algo = old(365d) | |||
| | maxarchivesize = 75k | |||
| | archiveheader = {{Talk archive navigation}} | |||
| | minthreadstoarchive = 1 | |||
| | minthreadsleft = 2 | |||
| }} | |||
| {{oldafdfull|date=7/10/06|result='''speedy keep'''}} | |||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject Judaism | importance= Mid }} | |||
| {{WikiProject Jewish history | importance= Mid }} | |||
| {{WikiProject Iran|importance=Mid}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Ethnic groups|importance=Mid}} | |||
| }} | |||
| {{To do}} | |||
| {{archives}} | |||
| == Inconsistency with Iranian Statistic == | |||
| :I don't think ] is even a Persian Jew. As for the other two, I'm not sure how much they emphasize their Persian roots. Basically, if you want to know if someone is a famous Persian Jew, first make sure he/she is famous. Then ask someone to write a paragraph about him/her. If the paragraph contains the words "Persian" or "Iranian" then that person could be famous Persian Jew. This is certainly the case for ]. I don't know about Katzav or Mufaz. ] 06:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| The 8,500 has a source, https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/jewish-population-by-country, but this source not only does not report 8,500 jews living in Iran, it reports 0. The 8,500 figure seems to be entirely fictitious as it is not present anywhere else on the internet. ] (]) 18:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :: ] is indeed of Iranian origin (both his parents were born in ]), but he himself was born in Israel and I don't think he has any knowledge of the ] (Farsi). Both ], the current president of Israel, and ], the former Chief of Staff of the ] and the current minister of defense, were born in Iran and are fluent in the Farsi language. There was even a scandle around this during the funeral of Pope John Paul II, where Katzav claimed he spoke to Iranian President ] in farsi during the occasion. | |||
| == Some discriminatory policies might be outdated == | |||
| == Are there really only 11,000 Jews remaining in Iran today? == | |||
| There's a conflict between the "Internal Policies" section of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Ciamak_Moresadegh | |||
| I've heard the number was actually between 25,000 and 30,000. Have the number of Jews living in Iran diminished to only 11,000 in recent years? | |||
| And what this article claims. | |||
| :The official number is 11,000 but the actual number might be closer to what you're suggesting. Most sources seem to say 11,000. I'm not sure where it's coming from. ] 06:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Two specifics I noticed were the Ciamak article claims that the Qisas discrimination was ended (2017?) and that jewish students don't have to go to school on Saturday anymore. | |||
| Thanks for the info. | |||
| As I am not well-versed in this field I don't know whether Ciamak is a reliable source for these statements though, so I just thought I would note it here. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 02:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| The new offical number is 25,000 roughtly as this number went up Iran's population went by an extra 10 million offical people. Sigh, don't you love it when people don't register with the government? ] 15:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Heh. | |||
| == Criticisms of the Phrase == | |||
| I removed the following paragraph: | |||
| :It is strange how the Persian Jews are not accepted. Persians Jews have been in Iran for 2,700 years. That is 90 generations ago. In, addition, they have been in Iran over 1200 years before Islam ever exsisted. Yet, to lots of unaccepting Muslims, they are too different to be regular "Persians". They do not need any acceptance; all Jewish Persians are as Persian as Muslim Persians and Armenian Christan Persians. A simple practice of religion does not affect one's race, yet they are discriminated against. | |||
| That may be true, but I think it is irrelevant to a section titled "Criticisms of the Phrase" and its wording strikes me as somewhat patronizing (i.e., non-compliant with the non-POV policy).] 15:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :I am a Persian who is non-religious. I have always felt that the Jews are different and they should leave Iran. Nobody had invited them to Iran in the first place. I have NEVER felt the same way about Armenians. I feel Armenians of Iran are just as Iranian as myself but Jews are different. Armenians contribute to the society. Jews network AGAINST the society. That's the difference. ] 09:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::] how dare you make such statments. You know nothing about Iran and humnaity to make such disgusting statments. Shame on you for slandering fellow Iranians who are just as much Iranian as anyone else, if not more. They were there before the majority and may even have more archaic Iranian genes. You can not single out Jews or other groups like that. I wonder what you think of Zoroastrians. Shame on you! Readers these statments are made due to the actions of the Israeli government and its attacks on Iran. The funny thing is the majority of Iranians Jews are anti-Zionist. You can not equate Iranian Jews with Israel. The actions of the Israeli government are a vicitimizing force for Jews across the world. | |||
| ::] a triat of Iranian culture has always been tolerance for thousands of years and respect. I see you are estranged from Iranian culture and values. How dare you write such anti-Iranian (yes it is anti-Iranian because it tears away at the fabrics of Iranian society which Iranian Jews are a part of) statments. ] 01:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hideous nonsense. Jews have been living in Iran longer than a lot of other Iranians. Armenians have only been living in (proper) Iran for the last 100-200 years. Not even comparable. Most Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against simply for political reasons that have very little to do with Iran or Persian Jews. The ones left in Iran (not that many) are kept in such horrible conditions that they can't even network against the country even if they wanted you. You're just giving into ]'s propaganda. ]<sup>]</sup> 13:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] how dare you make information up! Armenians have been living in Iran for thousands of years. They are one of the original people and pre-Christian Armenian history is tied with Iran. They are one of the original Aryan peoples of the region. Your statment has no factual grounds. How dare. I constantly seeing you make statements that show how little you know on Iran. How dare you push such statments as fact. '''I AM WARNING YOU ON THIS ISSUE!''' ] 01:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Firstly Armenians have been living in Iran as long as Persians. Armenia was a part of Iran or a vassla of Iran for much of its hisotry and the boundries are unclear. That is an incorect statment. Itranian Jews are an important part of Iranian history and society and any comments against them is an attack on all Iranians. Iranian Jews are also mostly anti-Zionist and against Israel. ] 01:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == 2 not 1 == | |||
| I remember seeing a news peice on CNN that said there were TWO jews in Afghanistan, not one. I could be wrong seeing as how this was a couple of years ago, but if anyone has the time to track it down it might be worth looking into. | |||
| :At least one has since died (it was in the news)... if not both of them... they were both quite elderly. ]<font color="#008000">]</font>]] 07:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Recent edits== | |||
| Some recent edits have been rather disturbing: | |||
| *Some here tend to think any Jew living in the ] is a Persian Jew. Unfortunately that's not true. For example Egypt used be part of the Persian Empire, so Egyptinan Jews are Persian Jews? That's why it's important to note that they must speak Persian to be Persian Jews. | |||
| *Some also like to suggest that there has been substantial interbreeding between local Persians and Persian Jews, to the effect that one cannot tell the difference between Persian Jews and local Persians. This is also wrong. Although there has been interbreeding, most Persian Jews tend to have certain (linguistic as well as physical) characteristics that distinguishes them from the local populations. In beginning of the 20th century (parallel to the rise of Nazism in Germany), there was widespread Persian literature about these characteristics which classified Persian Jews as "Semites" and not "Aryans"--hence not "real Iranians". ]<sup>]</sup> 04:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Are Persian Jews ethnically Semitic? Are they not Semitic? Has there been "substanstial interbreeding" ("intermarriage" would be a better choice of words) with non-Jews? Mass conversions of non-Jews to Judaism in previous eras? There is no evidence to back any of this up, and it's irrelevant either way. I am, however, curious about this allegedly "widespread" Persian literature classifying Persian Jews as Semites, which I personally find doubtful. There were a few Nazi sympathizers during the 1930s in Iran who bought into their racist propaganda, but they were most definitely fringe. ] 15:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you look at the page history, you'd see that people have been trying to add what I explained to be wrong information to the article. That's all I was trying to say. I'm not going to add any of the things I said to the article, so there's no point asking me for evidence. Those who add new information to the article are responsible for providing evidence. ]<sup>]</sup> 07:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| No conversation about Jews that entails a discussion of "interbreeding" can be good... ]<font color="#008000">]</font>]] 01:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This was one of my points.]<sup>]</sup> 03:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| This deals with Persian Jews but I will talk about all Iranian Jews. Let me tell you that there is marriage between Jewish Iranians and both Christian and Muslim Iranians. There have also been many Iranians who converted to Jews and many Jewish Iranians who converted to other religion. There are very few differeance and it is safe to say most Iranian Jews are identical to other Iranians. Another example would be Tats they are Aryan peoples who became Jews and are not Semetic of whole tribes of Kurds. Please do not try to create a Jewish race, because there are Jews from every race. Additionlly last time Iranians checked they never looked any Iranian Jews as different from other Iranians. | |||
| :Well the use of the word "race" is controversial in any case. What you're saying is not relevant to this article. We're not having a discussion about a "Jewish race" - I'm not even sure what you're talking about. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| I don't like the fact that some people incorrectly are trying to say that Iranian Jews are a different race beacause that is totally untrue. Jewish Iranians are as Iranian as anyother type of Iranian and most would die for Iran. User:Acuman has no idea what he is talking about. Persian Jews are just Persians that follow a Jewish faith. ] 01:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Conversions during Parthian times== | |||
| ''From time to time, there were cases were there would be converts to Judaism, most during the ] period.'' | |||
| This is apparently the claim the anon has been insisting upon. Any sources for this? ] 01:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Expansion required== | |||
| This article barely has any information concerning the contemporary life of Persian Jews in Iran. <s>Also, why the inclusion of information and links to Jews in India and Pakistan? Are they related to Persian Jews?</s> The sentence about Aghanistan is also misleading - the vast majority of the Jewish community there fled due to the Soviet invasion (obviously along with many other Afghans). By the time of the Taliban, most were already gone. This same information was in the ] article until I corrected it with a link to a Washington Post article (primarily revolving around the issue of the single Afghan Jew left there). ] 01:54, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ''The community dated back 800 years and still numbered 5,000 in 1948, but most remaining families fled the violence and repression that followed the Soviet invasion of 1979.'' From the article linked above. ] 01:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Dzhidi== | |||
| According to Ethnologue, there were 60,000 Dzhidi-speakers in Israel in 1995. . Does anyone have more recent figures? Also, is the language taught in Israel as well? ] 02:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry I didn't see this post. I remember I found a source saying there were 93,000 Persian Jews in Israel, so I was the who put in the 100,000 estimate (the source was at least 8 years old, so it's even a low estimate). I'll try to find that source and add it in within the next two days. Also, I think the number in the U.S. should be a little higher, but I didn't have to time to do any research on that. | |||
| :As for the second question, I doubt Persian is taught in any Israeli high schools, but it's probably taught in many universities. | |||
| :]<sup>]</sup> 13:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I added a source. Today's numbers are probably above 100,000, but they've been assimilated into the Israeli public. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Forced conversions in Pakistan== | |||
| What is the source of this information? ] 02:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I couldn't find anything, so I'm going to take it out. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==There should be a New Article called Iranian Jews that deals with Tats, Persian Jews, and othe Iranic Jews== | |||
| An article should be started about Iranian Jews which mentions the historic relations of the Jewish faith with Iranic peoples and includes Persian Jews, Kurdish Jews, Tats, and Lori Jews amongst other Iranian people of Jewish faith. | |||
| == There are no "Persian" Jews! == | |||
| Jews and Persians are two different races and ethnicities of their own. The proper term is "Iranian Jews" not "Persian Jews". The article should be renamed to "Iranian Jews". --] 02:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :That's not a neutrality or factuality dispute. Both terms are used, and referred to in the introduction. If you want to suggest an article name change, please provide Misplaced Pages policy reasons why it should be done. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 02:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Let me add that classfying people by "race" is highly subjective and usually not acceptable. See the ] for more information. Persian Jews speak Persian and share many other cultural traits associated with being Persian. ]<sup>]</sup> 03:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| In Aucaman's words, ''I have every right challenge the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article, and I have done that. Whatever you do, you're not supposed to take out this tag unless the dispute is solved''. In this case, I consider the term "Persian Jews" contridictory and not factual. Th term "Iranian Jews" should be used. --] 04:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :So you think Jews who live in Afghanistan are Iranian Jews? ]<sup>]</sup> 04:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Those are "Afghan Jews", they should have a section of their own. The term "Persian Jew" was coined when "Persia" was the official name of Iran and "Persian" the official nationality. The term "Persian Jew" has no relevance in modern times, the correct name is "Iranian Jew". --] 04:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :We're talking about Jews who spoke Persian. They don't necessarily have anything to do with modern country of Iran. Iran is a modern political term and has nothing to do with Jews living in the Persian Empire 1,000 or 2,000 years ago. Why do you want to call them Iranian? ]<sup>]</sup> 05:29, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Then you can change the title to "Persian-speaking Jews". The term "Persian Jew" was used to refer to the Jews who were citizens of Persia, it has no relevance in modern times. The correct terms would be "Iranian Jews" or "Persian-speaking Jews". But "Persian Jews" suggests ethnic and racial connections between Persians and Jews when there is none. In that context, a "Persian Jew" would be someone of mixed ethnicity. --] 05:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't know what you're talking about. Persian Jews are more than just Persian-speaking. Before the Islamic revolution they were involved in all sort of things Persian. There were Persian Jewish singers, composers, writers, linguists, musicians, etc. There were also Persian converts to Judaism--how can you say they're not Persian? ]<sup>]</sup> 11:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Mani jan, they have been living in iran for almost 2700 years, that makes them more Iranian (Persian) than many of those other people who arrived much later (Turks,...). Needless to say their language is a mixture of Hebrew/Persian. ] 18:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Iranian Jewish singers, writers, musicians, etc are still identified as ethnically Jews not Persians. The fact remains that the term "Persian Jew" has no ethnic/racial meaning. Jews and Persians are two different ethnicities and races of their own. However, given the fact that the term "Persian Jew" is simply a noun and an alternative to "Iranian Jew", still in use since the time of "Persia" when "Persian" was also a nationality, I've decided to withdraw my objection. --] 18:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ya it is a fact that there exists ignorance on this issue. Iranian Jews are the same genetically and in all ways but religon as Iranian Muslims and Christians. The term Persian Jew is right because there are other non-Persian Jews, such as Kurdish Jews and Jewish Tats. A lot of these people were not Jewish faith Hebrew immigrants, but Iranian converts thousands of years ago. There were whole towns in Iran that converted or even provinces/principlaities in Kurdistan. The Jewish community in Iran is older than the Muslim community. What you are equating this to is a statment saying Zoroastrian Iranians are not really Iranian or an Iranian people or race. This is wrong. Iranian Jews are just Iranian as an other Iranian and I even upset to be talking about a widely understoood fact. | |||
| :::Persian Jews and all other Jewish Iranians are an important and integral part of Iran and "Iranianism." Persian Jews are ethnic Persians who are Jews. There are also Lori Jews and other Iranian people who are Jewish......... ] 01:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also user:Acuman you prove how little you know about Iran by stating that iran is a modern political term. Iran is one of the world's oldest entities and was called Iran from the beginning by the Aryans. Iranians never refered to Iran as Persia but always as Iran. ] 01:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| What you are saying will offend many Persian Jews. Most of which never lived in Iran. You should know better than to start up with Persians - you never win :-( Boy, can they argue! Oh yeah, if any of them offer you food, say yes if you know whats good for you! | |||
| 99.9% of them call themselves Persian not Iranian, it would be against all logic to do otherwise, this article is about them. ] 15:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Who is that comment addressed to. It can not be me, but I fail to understand and I must also correct you that a great number of Persian Jews live in Iran. Iran has one of the world's largest Jewsih populations and presently has the second largest Jewish population in the Middle East after Israel. ] 18:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Persian Jews: Ethnicity or religious community== | |||
| The article's wording makes it appear that Persian Jews are an ethnic group distinct from other Persians, rather than simply a religious community. What is the source for this claim? ] 07:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Also I think the article should be more inclusive and NPOV by changing the title to '''Judaism in Iran'''. In addition to my above point, the current article title suggests that Persian Jews are a distinct ethnicity. This is certainly controversial. ] 07:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Jews are an ethnic group. If you have a problem with that you should go to the article on ]. I'm sure they'll give you a full explanation. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I disagree. Where are your sources that claim they are an ethnic group? They're a religious community like the Zoroastrians. If a Persian converts to Judaism, that makes that person a Persian Jew. Therefore even the title of this article is POV since it is not inclusive of converts. ] 02:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::And by the way, we're talking about the Jews of Iran - '''not''' Jews of other backgrounds (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Ethiopian, etc) or Jewish peoples in general. ] 03:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is a '''historical''' term. It has nothing to do with modern Persians or the country of Iran. The only reason they're called Persian Jews is because they lived under the Persian Empire (or they spoke Persian). For example, ], a Persian Jew, was a Benjamite - definitely not Persian. And by the way, most Jewish traditions don't accept converts, so I'm not sure which converts you're talking about. Judaism is more than just a religion. Persian Jews share the same roots, closely identify with one another, and they have their own culture and language. This is why they form an ethnic group. See the ] article. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 06:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::You're dodging my question. Where are your sources that they are an ethnic group distinct from Persians? As far as anyone is concerned, they are Persians of Jewish religion. Please provide sources that state otherwise. ] 07:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Also, the article on Mordechai does not identify him as a Persian Jew. How do you know that the Jews of Iran are descended from the ancient Jews who were freed by Cyrus? How do you know that they are not actually descended from later converts to Judaism? Sources please. ] 07:37, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::If you think it is problematic, the historical information which does not directly relate to the Jews of Iran may be moved to a separate article, but I don't think its necessary at this point. ] 07:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Dispute== | |||
| Which part of this article is disputed and why? ]]]<sup>]</sup> 06:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :What is disputed is your claim that the Jews of Iran are an ethnic group. I've never heard of this before. Persian Jews are a religious community. ] 07:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Also, you've highlighted a potential POV problem with the article title, which is why I have suggested a move to '''Judaism in Iran''' or '''Iranian Jews''' or '''Jews of Iran'''. ] 07:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've already told you. Most Persian Jews don't live in Iran and have nothing to do with Iran. They're called Persian Jews because of '''historical''' reasons. They're no more Iranian than Americans are English. I've asked people involved in the creation of this article to come and tell you exactly where the sources are coming from. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 07:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Most have nothing to do with Iran? Do you have a source for that? Obviously there are still many Jews in Iran - somewhere between 25,000 to 40,000. Are you downplaying their significance? BTW, Jews of Persian ancestry in Israel and Los Angeles may no longer have ties to Iran (speculative at best), but they are '''still''' of Persian ancestry. And again, you have not provided any sources for the claim that they are ethnically distinct from Persians aside from the issue of religion. For example, in Los Angeles, most Persian Jews are active in the Persian community and celebrate Norooz, right? ] 07:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You also contradict yourself in your discussion above with Mani: ''You don't know what you're talking about. Persian Jews are more than just Persian-speaking. Before the Islamic revolution they were involved in all sort of things Persian. There were Persian Jewish singers, composers, writers, linguists, musicians, etc. There were also Persian converts to Judaism--how can you say they're not Persian?'' And yet now you claim they are only Persian-speaking and not ethnically Persian. Incredible. ] 08:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Everything I said is correct except that there are Persian converts to Judaism. Persian Jews are Persian, but you and I seem to have a different understanding of who a Persian is (IMO, there's no such thing as a "Persian race"; Persian is a cultural group). ]]]<sup>]</sup> 08:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Who is talking about a "Persian race"? See ]. ] 08:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Well it helps if you read some of the stuff you revert. . You're telling me Jews like ] (a Benjamite!) are descendants of "Aryan tribes"??? ]]]<sup>]</sup> 08:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Also, do you have a source for the claim that there were not any converts to Judaism? Otherwise, that's just a claim and we have no idea if the Jews of Iran are actually descended from the original Jewish exiles or later converts, and we don't know the pattern of conversion in later centuries up to the modern era. ] 08:27, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::You're the one claiming him as a Persian Jew. I don't agree with his inclusion. He's a historical figure who may or may not have been Persian. Do you have a source? Because I don't know. ] 08:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Plus, his article doesn't claim him as Persian. ] 08:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Historical figure? So historical figures are not supposed to have religions, cultures, or ethnicities? So Mordechai is not a Persian Jew? Maybe you should read the story of ]? Was ] a Persian Jew? ]]]<sup>]</sup> 08:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::You're the one connecting them to Persian (or more accurately, Iranian) Jews, not me. You're the one claiming that the Iranian Jews and those Jews of Iranian ancestry today are ethnically descended from those historical figures. Do you have a source for that? Also, you keep avoiding my other points. ] 08:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I'm not doing anything. Every source that talks about Purim, Esther, and Mordechai identifies them as Persian Jews. And I did not write this article or come up with a definition for Persian Jews. In fact I'm just going to shut up and let those whose edits you just removed without much reason come here and give you an explanation for why Esther and Mordechai are Persian Jews and why the article is written the way it is. If you want sources you might want to read some of the stuff before removing sourced information. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 09:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::::Yes, you are. You're making a lot of controversial claims without any sources to back them up. I welcome the involvement of other editors because I would really like my concerns to be addressed by serious editors who can provide sources. In addition, I find it unusual that you routinely condemn what you perceive to be "racialism" and yet here you have no problem in promoting the idea that the Jews of Iran are an entirely different race or ethnicity. Isn't that "racialism"? As far as I know, there are no sources which suggest that the Jews of Iran and those of Persian ancestry are not ethnically Persian or ethnically different from other Persians in their respective areas (e.g. are Isfahani Jews ethnically different from other Isfahanis?). ] 20:45, 25 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=9814 | |||
| :Why are putting this in the middle of this section? ]]]<sup>]</sup> 04:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ====Clarification==== | |||
| When did I say Jews form a race? I said an ethnic group. An ethnic group is a group of people who identify close with another and share a common language and culture. Persian Jews form the best example of this. It's funny that you bring up Isfahani Jews because up until a 100 years ago they spoke a special dialect of Judeo-Persian that was totally incomprehensible to the local population of Isfahan. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 04:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Yes, but aside from their religion, how are Persian Jews ethnically different from other Persians? Zoroastrians also have their own distinct dialects and yet they are a religious community, not a distinct ethnic group. Similarly, Persian Jews are a religious community, not a distinct ethnic group. Before the Revolution, intermarriage between Persians of different religious backgrounds were not uncommon and it is only after the Revolution that those belonging to minority religions were forced to marry within their own communities unless they converted to Shi'a Islam. As I said, it all comes down to the issue of whether or not Persian Jews are ethnically distinct from other Persians. No sources have so far been provided to prove that they are a separate ethnicity. ] 05:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Persian Jews are distinct from other Persians in the same way Assyrians and Armenians are different. They have their own culture and different dialects. And stop making unsourced statements like "intermarriage between Persians of different religious backgrounds were not uncommon" in a closed society that has very limited tolerance of non-Muslims and has been active in their persecution. I will leave this alone for a few days until the original editors of the article come forward an answer some of your questions. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 06:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::A "closed society" that has "very limited tolerance for non-Muslims"? You're talking about pre-revolutionary Iran? Where is your source for that contentious and incendiary claim? It sounds like a provocation to me, especially when you can't even distinguish between a government and the populace, and I have no idea what you have against the people of Iran, but such attitudes are not appropriate here on WP. As for Assyrians and Armenians, they are not Persians. Persian Jews, however, are simply Persians who are of the Jewish religion. And I would really like to know your source for claiming that Imperial-era Iran persecuted non-Muslims, and that people in Iran are not tolerant of non-Muslims. ] 06:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::: Persian Jews are NOT distinct from other Persians in the same way Baha'i Persians are not distinct from other Persians. Assyrians and Armenians are an ethnicity, "Persian Jews" or Iranian Jews are not an ethnicity. By the way, intermarriage between Persians of different religious backgrounds has always been common among secular Persians. --] 06:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Persian Jews before they became Persian Jews had a different background to the rest of Persia. And ] is not just a religion. ] 10:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==RESPONDING TO THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE== | |||
| #The numbers speak for themselves. Why do you think we have 100,000 Persian Jews in Israel and (at least) 45,000 Persian Jews in the United States, but only less than 30,000 in Iran? After all, based on what you're saying, they're '''Persian''' Jews, right? | |||
| #You also might want to look into why some of the People now-know as ] (many of whom are of Middle Eastern background) left places like Iran and Iraq for the more toletant Indian subcontinent. | |||
| #Read about events such as the "''Allahdad''" ("God's Gift") incident of 1839 where Jewish neighborhoods of Mashhad were attacked and '''the entire Jewish population of ] was forcibly converted to Islam in a single day''' (Mach 27, 1839). These converts (known as ''Jadid Al-Islam'', "New Muslims") have been the subject of a great number of studies. It turns out they have managed to keep their Jewish identity in private. | |||
| #Some sources for you to look at: | |||
| #:*Read "The Jews of Persia, 1795-1940" by Walter Fischell (pp.119-160 outline the persecution of Persian Jews in pre-revolutionary Iran) | |||
| #:*For information on Mashhadi Jews and their persecution read "The Jews of Mashhad" by Azaria Levy (pp.3-20) | |||
| #:*For information about the details of the Allahdad incident read "Jadid Al-Islam" by Raphael Patai (starts p.249) | |||
| #:*Since you like online sources, take a look at from Britannica Encyclopedia: "'''''The Jews trace their heritage in Iran to the Babylonian Exile of the 6th century BC and, like the Armenians, have retained their ethnic, linguistic, and religious identity.'''''" | |||
| #I know you're here to promote a positive image of Iran and Iranians, but unless you show at least a minimum degree of self-criticism and openmindedness, it's more likely to just backfire. The labeling of independent ethnic groups with ill-defined racial terms is not only incorrect and unscientific, but directly violates ]. You've done it enough times - both in this article and others. And you're by no means a representative of the Iranian people here. Most Iranians don't subscrible to these empty racialist-nationalist views. (I see that the Iranians who wrote the ] do not subscribe to your historical revisionist ideas where pre-revolutionary Iran is portrayed as some sort of paradise for Iran's religious minorities.) In fact, the '''term "Persian" is not even used by Iranians as an ethnic marker'''. As Iranians understand it, the term is only a linguistic term. Only these rich, young, and immature kids of Iranian descent in United States (most of whom have never even been to Iran and don't even speak Persian) call themselves "Persian" and that's because of messed up psychological/sociological reasons having more to do with the internal politics and history of United States than anything Iranian. Keep your POV out of Misplaced Pages or starting giving sources for your claims and help in writing articles from a NPOV. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 09:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Exactly who are you responding to and who are you calling a "devils advocate"? Me? It would be appreciated if you stopped making these borderline ] and making all these claims about me - you don't know a single thing about me and you have no right to put me down the way you are doing. I don't speak Persian and have never been to Iran, huh? LOL! Furthermore, on the one hand you claim that Iranians are not tolerant and yet on the other hand you also claim that Iranians don't buy into "racialist-nationalist views" (what "racial-nationalist" views exactly?). On the one hand you claim that you aren't "racialist" and yet you claim that Persian Jews are not Persian, only "Persian-speaking." On the one hand you demand sources in other Iranian articles, and yet here you are quite content to make all sorts of outrageous claims without providing sources. Considering the ArbCom that is at hand (and has not even started), I suggest you calm down, stop making personal attacks, stop creating problems when sources have been provided, and communicate properly, especially if you expect a serious response. ] 11:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Well those comments were not directed at you personally, but it looks like no matter what people say you always feel "offended". Even when I you accuse me of being "rude and incivil" without any reason whatsoever. You might want to read the ] article for what it means and how it's used before throwing accusations (there's nothing offensive about the term). Yes Persian Jews are Persian, but our definition of "Persian" is not necessarily the same. I think of Persian as a heterogeneous linguistic/cultural group. You think of it as a racial/ethnic group. And as far as this article is concerned you have provided '''zero''' sources for you claims (whereas I've provided a number of sources for my claims), so stop accusing me of "creating problems when sources have been provided" when is exactly what '''you''' are doing. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 11:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Sources have been provided in the other articles that you have been disputing, and yet you continue to tag the article(s), ignore the sources and continue the dispute. And BTW, a cursory examination of this talk and my own comments reveals that your "devils advocate" comment was directed towards me - your comments are obviously directed towards an individual editor. Yes, I am offended. Just as you are offended when someone attacks you, especially without cause or makes an anti-Semitic remark. You continue to make false claims about me, such as that I think "Persian" is a racial term and that I am a "racialist-nationalist" or that I am here to promote an agenda (a positive image of Iran and Iranians) or that I "like" online sources (what is that supposed to mean exactly?) I have only stated that "Persian" is an ethnic group. As for sources here, you provided none up until this recent entry from Britannica and yet you do not even bother assuming good faith when you claim that you provide it because I "like" online sources. I could go on about how you ignore your own behavior and attitudes (especially in regards to rejection of sources) in other sources, and yet here you are quick to judge and condemn, even when I have only requested sources. I am simply appalled. ] 12:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::This is a talk page for discussing matters having to do with Persian Jews. I can give an explanation for every single statement I've made but not because you don't want to discuss the real issues. I said you "like online sources" because most of your sources appear to come from (ad hoc) Google searches. In fact you have provided '''no sources''' for your claims so far and I doubt Google would be of much help this time around. As you can see I had most of my sources ready before even coming here. As for saying you're here to promote a positive view of Iran and Iranians, I don't think there's anything offensive about that. In fact that's part of the reason I'm here. You're the one not assuming good faith, and I'm not going to feed your trolling from now on until you provide some real sources or I'm asked to give a formal explanation of my behavior here. ]]]<sup>]</sup> 12:35, 26 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 15:09, 24 December 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Iranian Jews article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 12 months  |
 | This article was nominated for deletion on 7/10/06. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
 | This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
 Archives | ||
|
||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present. |
Inconsistency with Iranian Statistic
The 8,500 has a source, https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/jewish-population-by-country, but this source not only does not report 8,500 jews living in Iran, it reports 0. The 8,500 figure seems to be entirely fictitious as it is not present anywhere else on the internet. 2600:8803:C7DC:2100:19C4:7134:CB66:BE64 (talk) 18:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
Some discriminatory policies might be outdated
There's a conflict between the "Internal Policies" section of this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Ciamak_Moresadegh
And what this article claims.
Two specifics I noticed were the Ciamak article claims that the Qisas discrimination was ended (2017?) and that jewish students don't have to go to school on Saturday anymore.
As I am not well-versed in this field I don't know whether Ciamak is a reliable source for these statements though, so I just thought I would note it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.165.13 (talk) 02:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories:- C-Class Judaism articles
- Mid-importance Judaism articles
- C-Class Jewish history-related articles
- Mid-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles
- C-Class Iran articles
- Mid-importance Iran articles
- WikiProject Iran articles
- C-Class Ethnic groups articles
- Mid-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
- Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists