User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:55, 18 October 2011 view sourceJimbo Wales (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Founder14,541 edits →anonymous (street meat)← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 19:05, 17 January 2025 view source Sir Macaw (talk \| contribs)102 edits →A brownie for you!: new WikiLove messageTag: WikiLove
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			'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}}
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			{{Press
			\| subject = talkpage
			\| author = Matthew Gault
			\| title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit
			\| org = ]
			\| url = https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit
			\| date = 8 December 2021
			\| quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other.
			}}
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			==]==
	== The new software ==
			]
			]
			Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

			Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
	My apologies if this has already been brought up here. I know you are a busy man and can't reasonably be involved in every little detail of the Foundation's business, but has it been brought to your attention that the new software is causing numerous problems, including blocking innocent users, moving block settings from renamed accounts back to the old names, autoblocking users and IPs for no apparent reason, and effectively making it very difficult for anyone who is not a checkuser to clear any of these erroneous autoblocks, or any other autoblock? The folks over at ] seem to be telling us that if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created and/or that bugzilla reports have been filed and that is all there is to say about it.

			], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]]
	If the new software was a bot we would turn it off. If it was an admin it would be desysopped and banned. I realize the Foundation is not made of money, but this new package seems to have been dumped here without any testing at all of how it would affect adminsitrative actions and the various admin interfaces.I'm no software engineer but the problems it is causing with block settings seem like a major flaw in that it is very much opposed to WPs open editing model to block anyone, ever if they didn't actually do anything to earn it. If there is anything you can do to either temporarily remove it pending fixes to these issues or accelerate actualy getting the problems fixed I'm sure it would be much appreciated by the admin corps and the various users who have been unjustly blocked. ] (]) 02:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
			I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Can you show me where a member of staff said something like "if we only appreciated how awesome the new features were we wouldn't be so upset at the several dozen problems it has created"?--] (]) 07:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			:If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	::No. That's why I said "seem to be telling us." It's more of an attitude. I'm not actually sure I have noticed any improvements, and when I did ask what they were I was referred to this document, which I'm sure says what exactly was improved, but mostly not in a way a person who is not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the software can understand. However I don't believe the user who pointed me there is actually a staff member. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, more interested in knowing when we get back the functions this software is more or less disabling and when it will stop messing up block settings. I'm sure a lot of work went into this, but it is causing a lot of headaches in the block/unblock department. ] (]) 16:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Right, so I'm very sympathetic to these block/unblock issues, and I'm certainly willing to help turn up the volume on noise, but I don't feel that your comments here have been very helpful to me in that regard. If I go off fuming at the staff for treating the community poorly when they didn't actually do that, then I look like an idiot, I waste their time and mine, and I am therefore not effective in solving any actual problems.
			:::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::If the problem is such that you and I can come up with a specific concrete proposal that will help the developers in some way, then we can make ourselves useful. Was the problem here a lack of testing? Can the problems be traced back in the code checkins to a particular developer who needs to find a different career? Is there a bigger picture issue with the code rollout process that we could help with?
			]
	:::In the past one complaint I have heard from developers is that they put things up on a test wiki for people in the community to test, but no one actually did. If that's an issue, then maybe we can help with that - we can ask Signpost to market the test wiki, we can form a task force, a wikiproject beta test or whatever.
			::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I don't actually know what the problem is, but I don't see how me going to the staff with the attitude that they are treating the community badly is really going to help anyone. I'm sure they are like software developers at any sensible organization: they want their code to work and they want the users to be happy. They don't want to break things that people need, and they want to make cool new stuff that people love. And... sometimes... things get broken. And then we feel bad about it. The only thing that can help is ideas to actually improve process.--] (]) 17:37, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			*Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::What we basically have here, as somebody once said, is a failure to communicate. Let me mention that an understandable account of the new features enabled by 1.18 can be found at . ] (]) 18:13, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			*It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::I do believe the core problem here was insufficient testing. I can't imagine anyone deliberately releasing software if they had any idea it would do some of the odd things it has been doing. The biggest problem is what it is doing to blocks, e.g. autoblocking IPs for no apparent reason, combined with the fact that the new package doesn't seem to communicate properly with the autoblock checker on the toolserver. The result being that autoblocks are made by the software and the majority of admins are unable to clear them. If there is a need for more testers next time sign me up, I actually don't know anything about the test wiki even after four years of active editing so I think you are really onto something with the idea of raising it's profile in the future. Given the number of bugs this time around I would think it would be an easy sell to get admins and others to help next time around. ] (]) 23:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			:: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Before I say anything let me make clear that I am completely uninvolved with Misplaced Pages development -- I just have enough experience with development of other software to understand part of what is going on. With that said, first a minor correction: the software has actually not been released yet. Rolling it out for the Wikimedia sites is the final stage of testing before it is formally released. Second, it actually has been tested pretty extensively, but there is no testing platform that places anything like the demands of the Wikimedia sites, and previous attempts by the developers to get people to try out the testing platforms have met with very little response (according to them, and I believe it). The main error, I believe, was to announce the rollout with a cheerful breezy attitude instead of with a serious warning that it might cause some temporary breakage. Regarding getting admins to help out the next time around, my experience says that you are too optimistic: many people have good intentions, but nobody has a lot of time to devote to mere testing. ] (]) 23:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::::::Please could you explain what "the software" is? Are we talking about the useless disaster that was 1.18, or something else? --] (]) 23:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Correcting myself, ok we're talking about 1.18. It hasn't been released yet? Or has it? How is it impacting real users (for example, by incorrectly blocking them) if it has not been released yet? --] (]) 23:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::::::::Let me again give a pointer to the , which explains what has been happening. "Releasing" means making an official package available to the outside world. 1.18 has been activated for all the WikiMedia sites as of October 4, but hasn't yet been officially released, as far as I know. ] (]) 23:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::::::::So en.wiki is running pre-release software? --] (]) 23:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::::::::::Yes. There simply is no other way to do final testing than to run it on one of the major wikis. It was previously rolled out on several smaller wikis for testing, and apparently no major problems popped up at that level. An argument might be made that the schedule was too aggressive, but ultimately any major software release is going to have issues that only show up once it begins to be used in a full-scale production environment. (Such as the current problem with previously blocked users who changed their names -- on a small wiki the chances of spotting that are pretty slim.) ] (]) 23:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	::If someone could point me to a concise summary of any extant issues, I'm happy to take them to the devs. But my understanding is that the worst of the bugs had been squashed? ] (]) 08:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::The most important problem is that developers have not been communicating with administrators about a number of serious issues related to blocking -- admins cannot be expected to go to Bugzilla to get information. Also, the bug that is probably the most serious, , is unresolved with no promise of a rapid resolution. ] (]) 14:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

			== ==
	== New Misplaced Pages for Kids ==

			That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have placed a statement here earlier, stating if there such thing as Misplaced Pages for Kids. I have looked at all of them and I think there should be a new one. None where kid-friendly.] (]) 19:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:Then go to Wikia and make it. ]. —<font color="228B22">''Jeremy'' v^_^v</font> <sup><small>Components:] ] ]</small></sup> 19:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:(ec) What is "kid-friendly")? ] <sup>]</sup> 19:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:An "encyclopedia for children" has existed in the past - for example my parents procured a set of the Childrens' Britanica (an abridged version of the real thing) when I was young. It wasn't very useful. I'm also wondering what Gregory defines as "kid-friendly". <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 20:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	::That's exactly what I meant.] (]) 20:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::Sorry - I don't understand - what in the above thread is "exactly what you meant" ? <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 20:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::What I meant was the wikis were not reliable and doesn't make sense to kids.] (]) 21:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::::I'd agree that we need to "up" the reliability as best we can on all wikimedia projects. I'd disagree they are not reliable as long as one treats them as they are - a tertiary source - however. In respect of them not making sense to kids - well - that's a problem for the parents or teachers. <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">] : ] </span></small> 21:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:Is what you're looking for?--] (]) 21:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	::Simple isn't strictly for children though, it could have an article on Jemma Jameson! This guy has a point, there really ought to be a children's edition of wikipedia with a design specially suited to attracting kids. Really articles could be written based on existing articles and simplified to be suitable for kids learning. and they could be set so only parents and teachers can edit them or something. If I was a seven year old kid, seriously 90% of our articles i'd shut off after two paragraphs. We do need a Children's edition for wikipedia, the nearest thing we have is . But we need that sort of thing to be an on going project to build the best possible kids encyclopedia. We also need our own Wiki Atlas for making our own maps, OSM is poor quality. A lot of things which seem really important for some reason get overlooked on here.♦ ] 22:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::It's not easy to determine what is "kid-friendly", so I don't think it's possible. What would this "kid-friendly" wikipedia say about death? That it's the end and that you don't really go to heaven? Or... how are children conceived? Bees & butterflies? ] <sup>]</sup> 22:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::Hehe and say that Santa is a real guy living in Lapland LOL. Well the 3-16 age group would probably require several different encyclopedias to cater to different age groups.♦ ] 22:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::::Then again, there's the issue of ].] ] 22:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::::As opposed to the issue of whether adults can collaboratively work together nicely, which requires little discussion: We already know that many of them can't. :) ] (]) 18:43, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::If you feel OSM is "poor quality", what makes you think our own efforts would be any better? OSM is what you get when you create a user-edited mapping tool; why would we re-invent the wheel? Better to work with OSM to improve their quality. As for a Children's Edition of Misplaced Pages, no one is stopping you from creating one. You might even get some Misplaced Pages editors to help you with the effort. But the Misplaced Pages project as a whole is focused on creating a ''comprehensive'' encyclopedia, not one suitable for minors. ] <sup><small><small>]</small></small></sup> 00:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	:See ] and ].
	:—] (]) 23:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

			:Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	Oddly this is the third time I have come across a discussion on this topic recently, and found that nobody seems to be aware of the ], AKA Misplaced Pages for schools. No pop culture or porn articles, no gory or sexual images, and you can't vandalize it. I think it would be great if it were actually online. It could be left static, new versions of articles could be imported but it would not be editable by the general public, meaning it would require very little administration. However, so far nobody but me seems to like this idea and I don't have the server space or the technical know-how to do it myself. ] (]) 23:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
			::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:My main objections to ideas like this is the inherited requirement to define what is suitable for children, and who does that decision. Should it be suitable for American children, or should it be suitable for Swedish children? Should it hide facts that are deemed unsuitable in a moral (i.e. moral panic) sense, or unsuitable in an educational level (i.e. Quantum physic) sense. If it's only reliability that is relevant in the end, then no special Misplaced Pages for children is required, just make sure the pedia is reliable :) <sub>→]]</sub> 00:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I like this idea, Beeblebrox. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard for the Foundation to put this online, since it exists. I think they ought to. Providing an additional online product (which, as we've seen, people seem to want) at low cost would be a good thing, I would think. (BTW and FWIW there is something called "", but that is a subset of Wikibooks and not an encyclopedia. Not sure if it's active, either.) (@AzaToth: "who does that decision" would be people who volunteer to do it, cooperating and using established standards of pedagogy, I guess, and I suppose this is how the CD version that Beeblebrox refers to was made.) ] (]) 01:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	:::Thanks, you're the first person who seems to get the concept behind this idea. It is not a censorship issue. Misplaced Pages undeniably contains material that entirely inappropriate for young children no matter where they live, but I would be the absolute last person to suggest that we should censor ''this'' project in any way. It would be a great service to educational institutions for them to have something like WP, but which the kids can't use for other things, such as vandalizing, looking up sexually explicit material, or reading about individual episodes of Family Guy. Articles wouldn't be screened for morals, but rather for actual educational value, which is what they did with the CDs. An article like ] is not related to any subject they teach in any primary or secondary school I've ever heard of, so it would not make the grade. Neither would ], for the exact same reason. Since it would not be subject to the space limitations of the CDs we could indeed include any and all educational topics, from ] right on up to ]. And the folks who made the CDs already did a lot of the legwork for us. ] (]) 03:28, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
	::::Well I agree that "we should censor ''this'' project in any way", for the same reason I agree that that "we" shouldn't issue passports or collect tariffs: we don't have any police powers, so we can't censor anything. We can exercise editorial judgement, but that's way different.

			Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u\|Tryptofish}}?
	::::OK, sorry about the snark, but's a hobbyhorse of mine. Anyway, after thinking about this some, I'm of two minds about this, for reason of internal politics, too long and complicated to describe here. ] (]) 18:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			:... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u\|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was.
	::::: OK, So what is the outcome of this?] (]) 18:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
			:Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::See ] and in particular . There's a lot of bullshit out there but basically as I understand it a student asked about the practice and after another student commented, one of the people (adults) in charge offered a brief explaination to help clear up some misconceptions. While not a part of any curriculum and was outside school, it's clear some people don't see any harm in helping older secondary school students (the workshop was for youths between the ages of 14-21) better understand stuff they've heard of before. Our article may not be the best way to do this and it goes in to more detail then is likely in any such session (although that is true for a lot of our articles) but I think your idea of universal concepts of what's taught and not taught are a little simplistic. I can imagine Mobile Suit Gundam SEED is something that may be analysed as an example if the subject is Japanese culture or anime (or both!) in school. As another example, are you planning to include ]? I'm pretty sure this is something that is fairly commonly discussed to some extent in sexual education in schools in some places e.g. but in other places mentioning it is likely unthinkable. ] (]) 08:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
			] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::It is possible for pretty much anything to be brought up in a conversation in a classroom somewhere. I don't think it would be that difficult to come up with objective criteria to determine what is and is not a "general education" article if we were really going to do this. For everything else we already have this project. I'm thinking more of something used by elementary/primary schools, as opposed to high schools or secondary schools. ] (]) 16:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

			:Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
	== New MediaWiki milestone ==
			:As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq\|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

			== ] ==
	Hi, Jimbo and Jimbo page watchers. ] was just committed to MediaWiki subversion repository. Congratulations to everyone. --] (]) 01:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

			Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on ] about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	== anonymous (street meat) ==

			== ''The Signpost'': 15 January 2025 ==
	The page was deleted -- http://en.wikipedia.org/Anonymous_(Street_Meat) -- they came after it big big guns. I wish to go on record that this experience was personal, contentious and has had a stifling effect. Thank you Mig (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC)] (]) 14:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

	: I would not say the "big guns" came after it. Indeed, you had the tremendous benefit of assistance during that discussion from some of our key editors on Films overall - including someone who ''appears'' in film. You were provided some great advice on ''how'' and ''when'' related to this article - indeed, I wish I'd had that same benefit with a couple of articles that I have had deleted :-) You ''may'' continue to work on a userspace draft of the article, and when it meets the guidelines under ] you'll be good to go! (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">''' ] '''</span>]) 15:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
			<div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2025-01-15}} </div><!--Volume 21, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 07:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div>
	::The issue is that Miss Chinea is the director and writer of the film in question. As far as I've seen, people where nothing but courteous and professional in their dealings with Miss Chinea. She has been advised a number of times about policies related conflict of interest and notability which she seems to have largely ignored. Instead she chose to continue attempting to promote her film through Misplaced Pages. The reason she found it personal and contentious was that she chose to take it personally because it was her film. I've seen this happen dozens of times, where someone finds the process difficult because it is judging the impact their own creative effort. Personally I don't think this is a major problem (aside from being a hassle for non single purpose editors), there are many people who see Misplaced Pages as merely a means to an end. If they don't get their way they feel disillusioned. --] 16:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
			<!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1269316164 -->
	:::I wonder how we might soften the edges of the process for people, so that they learn from it and become better editors rather than getting disillusioned... at least more often than happens now. (Some people will never be satisfied, of course.)

	:::For example, rather than the article being deleted, perhaps it could have just been moved to her userspace and put there in some useful fashion with links to the deletion discussion and community advice for getting the article published at an appropriate time and with appropriate content.--] (]) 16:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
			== A brownie for you! ==

			{\| style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #fdffe7); border: 1px solid var(--border-color-success, #fceb92); color: var(--color-base, #202122);"
			\|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" \| ]
			\|style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" \| brownie :D ] 19:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			\|}

Latest revision as of 19:05, 17 January 2025

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Village pumps: policy; tech; proposals; idea lab; WMF; misc

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Albert Percy Godber

Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.

Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors

That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?

... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.

Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.

As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image?

Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image? about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. Barnt Toust 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)