| Revision as of 22:47, 26 October 2011 editEdJohnston (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Administrators71,206 edits →Hounding and stalking: Tiresome← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 04:10, 19 December 2024 edit undoEmiya1980 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users20,779 edits →Update regarding Topic-Ban Observance | ||
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| == ] == | |||
| Dont worry, Ed, that was my second and last revert. I can understand replacement of sources, with better ones, but complete , and even <nowiki>{{reflist}}</nowiki> template? I am open for discussion, so please help in this. Counter source would be good, and not just blind revert. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]<sup>]</sup></span> 22:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :Hi! I left you a message on my talk page. I'd appreciate if you respond. ] (]) 12:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::One of the three people who are reverting should open a ] at ], to decide what (if any) nationality should be listed for this family. ] (]) 15:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::Can you, i or we remove , as it is unsourced and questionable, and add reflist template, and other things article need? Also, Ed, 3RR goes for 3 edits in a day, and as i edited this article only '''two times in article history''', while first time in introduction of sources, and other one revert of removed sources, i feel that your 3RR warning is very misplaced, specially when several obvious wikipedia guidelines are violated. And, even more, Surtsicna do want to cooperate very well and polite, and we are already talking, so... Rokonja's edits are not comparable. Anyway, i dont want to be in the middle of questionable ARBMAC interpretation. So, can i continue to edit article in order to fix it, or we need a mediator who will be only one to edit it. (in that situation, that would be you, i guess)? Current version, that points us on false info, and which is '''without even one source''', cannot and should not stay there for long... --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]<sup>]</sup></span> 18:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::At this point, we are no longer counting edits, but we are asking: | |||
| :::::#Who is willing to participate in the discussion? | |||
| :::::#Who has any actual ideas on how to identify nationality of a ruling family in the Balkans? | |||
| ::::Anyone who continues to revert without participating on the talk page risks being sanctioned. It seems to me that you and Surtsicna might be willing to discuss, but nothing has been heard yet from Rokonja. Surtsicna's suggestion (on the talk page) that ] was of German descent seems to be the so far. Should we put 'German' in the box for her nationality? ] (]) 18:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Rokonja does not appear to have any intention to discuss anything whatsoever. ] (]) 18:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :And he is also edit warring over the same subject. I propose block, as user was already blocked before for the similar thing. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]<sup>]</sup></span> 21:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::Rokonja is on thin ice. His last revert didn't make a big difference, though. In his edit (October 18) he added 'nationality=Croatian' to an infobox where nationality is not displayed per . I do have a concern that Surtsicna might need consensus to remove the nationality attribute. It is used in some other instances of that template. ] (]) 23:43, 22 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == About the photos == | |||
| I perfectly know what Misplaced Pages is all about, but when something is wrong you need to fix it. I am not going to an edid war here, but when someone reverts over and over again and putting something clearly wrong, what should someone do? I have tried to communicate, but without luck...] (]) 20:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Talkback == | |||
| {{talkback|Jonchapple|ts=22:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)}} | |||
| ]] 22:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == edit war == | |||
| dear edjohnston, | |||
| i would like to address a concern i have. | |||
| user ] reverted my edit here under a cover of an incomprehensible and ludicrous charge . the content was clearly wp:or, an assessment reinforced by the fact that he removed two sources that are easily verifiable i.e. that prove that i'm right. it also turns out that this was his fifth consecutive revert. the animosity he has towards ] is getting out of hand, affecting other uninvolved editors and pages. i am addressing the issue here as i don't want to get involved on the noticeboard. regards.-- ] (]) 16:31, 17 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I see only four edits by Swift&silent altogether and one of them is not a revert. The diff #1 you provide above does not show any removal of references. Consider opening up a ] on the talk page. ] (]) 17:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :: this is his initial edit . he backed up his claims with 2 internet articles and 2 books, stanley wolpert's "india" being one of them. i know wolpert's book and i read the internet articles, and none of them supports his claims, hence wp:or. i reverted and told him that his edit constituted wp:or . he then proceeded with reverting me *and* removing the two internet articles , as they are easily verifiable. however, he didn't remove the stanley wolpert's book, hoping that no-one had read it...however, i know this book . i suspect that the other books he provided is just another cover for his wp:or. this is clearly disruptive editing and he is disingenuous beyond belief..-- ] (]) 17:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::If either side of this dispute continues to revert without getting a talk page consensus, the article may be placed under full protection. Please try more discussion on the talk page. I note that ] is the logical place for alternative views of the outcome of this war to be presented. That article is very nuanced and already cites many of the conflicting assessments. It would be surprising if the summary article on ] were to give a different outcome for the 1965 war than the article which is already dedicated to that war. ] (]) 15:08, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::: agree with your points. the alternative views are already well-represented on the ]-page, and a summery article on the ]-page is not the right place for such elaboration. however, i don't think s&s will ever understand this. hence, i suggest full protection.-- ] (]) 15:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::] I agree with your point. I added that 'war ended with UN madated ceasefire though neutral sources opined' (later changed to 'sources disputed') that it was an Indian victory, backed by various sources. When ] reverted the edit I took heed of his edit and added more sources and removed some old ones but one source remained that wasn't re-inforcing the content in question. ] reverted on the basis that one source was not reinforcing content and removed all five sources and the material. Anyway let me assure you I will discuss this matter thoroughly before making any changes to the said article. Thank You. ] (]) 05:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: you also deliberately misattributed 2 other articles. nice try though.-- ] (]) 05:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Those I had removed myself. Nothing explains why you did this . If one of the five ref wasnt matching then you should have removed that particular ref instead of deleting 4 refs and content. ] (]) 06:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: your behaviour clearly demonstrates that you misattribute sources. of course you had to remove the articles *after* i found out that they didn't support your claims. the question is: why did you use them *and* wolpert's book in the first place when it's clear that they don't support your claims? could you answer that?-- ] (]) 07:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: Shall we all start removing content if '''Previous edits''' had refs that werent exact (they said India got better of the war rather than saying victory) or if one (of five) ref dont match? Does that justify removing right Refs who said it was an 'clear Indian victory'? Anyway, lets discuss the matter on Article's talk page instead of crowding ]. See ya at article's talk page. ] (]) 05:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Older sanction update == | |||
| Hey there. You might like to take a look at ] of what needs to be updated and offer comments on the talk page there? Feel free to point out if I've forgotten anything. — ] <sup>]</sup> 18:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == ] in NYC Oct 22 == | |||
| ]</big> in NYC]] | |||
| You are invited to '''''] in NYC''''', an editathon, Misplaced Pages meet-up and lectures that will be held on Saturday, October 22, 2011, at the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts (at ]), as part of the ] events being held across the USA. | |||
| All are welcome, sign up on the wiki and <big></big>!--] (]) 04:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == wikistalking/wikihounding Issue == | |||
| Please see ]. | |||
| I've placed a notice on the incident board but didn't get a proper response (one of the editors said he'd like a response by the user being reported first and has not replied after the response since two days and the other one hasn't fully read the complaint). The activities of the editor in question are escalating, so I thought it was necessary to report it here. | |||
| Interestingly, one of the editors the reported editor has 'recruited' by canvassing is the already warned edit-warring editor ] (refer to the section on edit warring on your talk page and the reported canvassing links on the incident board). --] (]) 12:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == AE case and Adam Carroll == | |||
| Hi Ed. I hope you don't mind my posting on your TP, but just wanted to ask a quick question relating to the AE case with which I'm currently involved. I've accepted that I'm probably going to get a topic block for the Ulster Banner-related edit warring, but wanted to enquire as to how you're treating the ] example that Domer48 also cited as evidence of my breaking the Troubles probation. | |||
| In your opinion, do my two reverts on said article to restore his (racing) nationality to the sourced, stable and correct "British" count as a violation too? Just want to make sure I avoid this sort of thing in future in case it is also covered by ]. Unfortunately, if you agree it is, that incorrect and unsourced "Irish" nationality in his infobox – which depicts his racing nationality, irregardless of personal preference – would had to have stood for a week until I could revert again. Many thanks, ]] 08:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Mentioned you at WP:AN3 == | |||
| Hi, Ed. Thought it would be polite to let you know that I wrote at AN3 in which I mention my understanding of your understanding of what constitutes a revert. ] a live link to the thread, and in case it rolls to archives before you take a look. Thanks again, very much, for your great work here: feel free to correct or amend what I wrote if I misrepresented you in any way. There's also a "pointer" to that AN3 discussion at AN/I currently, although I didn't comment there at all. Cheers, – <font face="Cambria">] (])</font> 21:44, 20 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Could you possibly have a word? == | |||
| Could you have a word , and save me the hassell of filing a report. One editor at least is aware of the sanctions. Thanks in advance...--<font face="Celtic">]<sub>'']''</sub></font> 00:06, 22 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Your comments on AE == | |||
| EdJohnston, back in May 2011, when you instituted a topic ban on me in regards to ], we have followed up with discussion , where you set forth 3 conditions for considering to lift the ban. All three conditions were fully met by myself, i.e., I opened an RfC, did not make any reverts at ] and, most importantly, despite obvious violations ] policy by Khodabandeh14, I did not continue with comments on the topic of violating my privacy at that time. Despite all three conditions fulfilled, you have '''not''' lifted the ban. | |||
| And now you are commenting on AE, that I am on the path of losing editing ability indefinitely. May I know for which violation? When did I revert any article or start any dispute, besides being a victim of Khodabandeh14 repeated reporting of me, again trying to violate privacy? I understand that AE admins have a discretion over the fate of anybody involved in ], but there is a certain logic with which this should be done. For example, what if an editor involved ] is being targeted with an attempt to rid him off Misplaced Pages? What if imposition of topic bans did not result in better quality of articles or reduction of nationalist edit warring? Reviewing edits by some users, in the aftermath of my topic ban, such as , or , , , sort of edit warring on nationalist grounds, I don't see how my topic ban (or your comments for that matter) helped to resolve the issues. They only established a precedent that any long-time editor can be targeted by any group of users and forced into restrictions, using administrative resources. Thanks. ] (]) 23:54, 22 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I checked the archives of my talk page to see when you and I last had a discussion here. Your last comment seems to be at ]. If you had come back after that and asked for your ban to be lifted, I might have considered it. The discussion in Archive 21 did not give me much confidence that you would be able to edit neutrally at ]. Khodabandeh14's use of references was better, and you didn't seem to have a good response to his points. For instance, you didn't want us to use the phrase 'Safavid dynasty of Iran' (you argued it was like 'Roman Empire of Italy') but he was able to show that the phrase is very widely used in reliable sources. It was not clear that you had any source-based reply to Khodabandeh's points. The topic ban which I imposed on May 6 was for three months, and it expired on August 6. ] (]) 18:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Is this an adequate source? == | |||
| EdJohnston, when you impose a restriction and set forth conditions for its removal, you are the one to consider lifting the ban, when those are satisfied. And they were satisfied, i.e. RfC was opened, consensus was achieved, and I reversed my right to complain about ] by Khodabandeh14. So you have no argument in favor of keeping your topic ban, other than satisfying Khodabandeh14's demands to topic ban me. | |||
| Greetings EdJohnston, | |||
| What neutrality are we talking about, when you state right above: ''"you didn't want '''us''' to use the phrase 'Safavid dynasty of Iran'"''. How can I even argue my case, when you, by default, take position in an editing dispute? The fact that I supported using "Safavid dynasty" (term used on that page for years) instead of nationalist POV "Safavid dynasty of Iran" is not a ground for topic bans, and I provided sufficient amount of evidence to show that no state called "Iran" existed when Safavid dynasty established a state in 1501 in Azerbaijan. Safavid dynasty was not established over geographic region called Iran either, it was established over Azerbaijan initially, involving tribes that migrated from Anatolia. So pushing "Safavid dynasty of Iran" was clearly a POV aimed at disassociating historical dynasty from anybody else. | |||
| Recently I was engaged in a discussion with an editor over their use of Youtube videos as media sources within the ] article, . While there is no current dispute and we were able to discuss this amicably, I am still quite unsure about whether or not this is correct seeing Misplaced Pages's stance on self published sources and on ]. | |||
| Ironically, in absence of ], ] has taken over a task of removing any association of Azerbaijan with Safavids or other historical states, , if I did the same thing, you would topic ban me and Khodabandeh14 would be enumerating dozens of Misplaced Pages regulations, ranging ] to ]. Or how about , huh, Ed? What happened to ''neutrality'' now? ] (]) 18:09, 25 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I was supposed to magically know that you had become eligible for unban, without any request by you? Your lack of neutrality could hardly be more obvious. You are acting like a warrior for one side of the debate. It would be hard to supply more evidence that lifting your ban would have been unreasonable. ] (]) 18:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Ed, since you are claiming that I was eligible for unban, then I kindly request you to make a proper comment in this regard at ]. I realize that the ban has been served already, but the fact that I have fulfilled all conditions for lifting of the ban shall be reflected on ], so that other users cannot use it as justification in editing disputes or filing cases. | |||
| Again, I did not initiate this discussion until reading your AE comment, calling for my indefinite ban. And I just wanted to clarify that I have fulfilled all terms of unban, and the comments by yourself were not made in good faith. And if there neutrality observed, it should be applicable to everyone alike. The editing activity of ] is clearly disruptive in AA2 context. ] (]) 19:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :The issue is now moot, since the May 6 ban has expired. I do not expect to make any further comment at AE about it. My prediction that you are headed for an indefinite ban is only a prediction. You may yet demonstrate that you can make valuable edits elsewhere, and you can place the values of Misplaced Pages above your personal loyalties. In that case your return to AA may be possible. ] (]) 19:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Ed, I don't mean to be facetious, would you explain what you meant by "personal loyalties"? The issue is not moot, because you made a promise (a commitment) as an admin and did not deliver on it, and then go on making further bad faith comments on AE against myself, trying to justify your action. ] (]) 00:22, 26 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Dwijavanti Athreya == | |||
| I would greatly appreciate your insight on the matter. ] (]) 02:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I failed to check history, restored, sorry <font face="chiller"><font color="red"><b>] - </b></font></font><font face="arial"><font color="green">]</font></font> 05:37, 25 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :The policy that applies is surely ]. I would be more concerned about the value of the citation to the article on ], since we are not the Latin Misplaced Pages. Someone reading aloud a letter in Latin to our English-speaking readers won't improve the understanding of the subject by most people. ] (]) 02:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you so much for your input! ] (]) 03:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi there, I am joining this as the person who posted the video. In general, the utility of original language content is that the person can (with subtitling) get a sense of the content in the original form. They get to know the sound of what someone wrote, the cadence of their style, which is lost in translation. That has utility, I would argue, especially when the person is someone known for their style. IDK if WP has specific guidance on this, but ] suggests that original language content should appear with English translations. Whether this specific case warrants keeping is another matter and not why I wanted to comment. | |||
| ::What I do need clarity on is whether ] has relevance here, as the video is simply a reading, and the readings are from sourced, clearly indicated and verifiable material. To me, the guidance at ] is out of scope. ] ] 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I've posted this ] as I do need clarity on this. ] ] 18:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Update regarding Topic-Ban Observance == | |||
| == Hounding and stalking == | |||
| I once again momentarily forgot about my lede image ban and reverted a change to a picture I had uploaded as the lede image for ]. It literally occurred to me at the last moment before making said revert that what I was about to do might violate my topic ban. However, by the time it fully registered, the change had already been made. I have since reverted said change. While I am inclined to ask you to show leniency, I realize I asked you to dismiss a similar occurence around a month ago so I will leave it to your discretion regarding whether further sanctions are warranted. ] (]) 03:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| In relation to ], I would appreciate that issues of hounding and stalking also be dealt with at this request. I haven't started another request in the past in relation to it, as I have been doing more important things, such as uploading to Commons and working on articles in userspace. But now that the issue has been raised, I would appreciate that it be dealt with in the current request, so I ask that instead of a hasty and quick close to the request that admins take the time investigate this as part of the current request. I can be contacted on my talk page for further information. Cheers, ] <sup>]</sup> 20:51, 26 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree with at AE. It is tiresome to see the same names showing up repeatedly at AE. In the next round of enforcement it may be necessary to impose topic bans or widen existing ones so that the people who can't get along with each other no longer have to edit the same articles. In my opinion you are appropriately in line for sanctions since your violation of the interaction ban was so blatant and easy to see. Your violation was presumably deliberate and was intended as a salvo in the ongoing dispute. ] (]) 22:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC) | |||
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Is this an adequate source?
Greetings EdJohnston,
Recently I was engaged in a discussion with an editor over their use of Youtube videos as media sources within the Machiavelli article, see here. While there is no current dispute and we were able to discuss this amicably, I am still quite unsure about whether or not this is correct seeing Misplaced Pages's stance on self published sources and on Youtube as a source.
I would greatly appreciate your insight on the matter. Plasticwonder (talk) 02:17, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- The policy that applies is surely WP:RSPYT. I would be more concerned about the value of the citation to the article on Niccolo Machiavelli, since we are not the Latin Misplaced Pages. Someone reading aloud a letter in Latin to our English-speaking readers won't improve the understanding of the subject by most people. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for your input! Plasticwonder (talk) 03:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi there, I am joining this as the person who posted the video. In general, the utility of original language content is that the person can (with subtitling) get a sense of the content in the original form. They get to know the sound of what someone wrote, the cadence of their style, which is lost in translation. That has utility, I would argue, especially when the person is someone known for their style. IDK if WP has specific guidance on this, but MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE suggests that original language content should appear with English translations. Whether this specific case warrants keeping is another matter and not why I wanted to comment.
- What I do need clarity on is whether WP:RSPYT has relevance here, as the video is simply a reading, and the readings are from sourced, clearly indicated and verifiable material. To me, the guidance at WP:RSPYT is out of scope. Jim Killock (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- I've posted this to the Village pump as I do need clarity on this. Jim Killock (talk) 18:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Update regarding Topic-Ban Observance
I once again momentarily forgot about my lede image ban and reverted a change to a picture I had uploaded as the lede image for Hideki Tojo. It literally occurred to me at the last moment before making said revert that what I was about to do might violate my topic ban. However, by the time it fully registered, the change had already been made. I have since reverted said change. While I am inclined to ask you to show leniency, I realize I asked you to dismiss a similar occurence around a month ago so I will leave it to your discretion regarding whether further sanctions are warranted. Emiya1980 (talk) 03:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)