Misplaced Pages

Talk:Albania: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 22:43, 6 January 2012 editKhirurg (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers31,674 edits →Demographics - Consensus← Previous edit Latest revision as of 19:50, 30 November 2024 edit undoFavonian (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators287,398 editsm Reverted edit by 177.10.225.46 (talk) to last version by Iaof2017Tag: Rollback 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Article probation}} {{Skip to talk}}
{{Talk header}}
{{Outline of knowledge coverage|Albania}}
{{British English|date=January 2022}}
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|
{{Article history
⚫ {{WikiProject Albania|class=C|importance=Top}}
|action1=PR
⚫ {{WikiProject Countries|class=c}}
|action1date=09:58:05 21 July 2008 (UTC)
{{WP1.0|v0.5=pass|class=C|category=Geography|importance=mid|WPCD=yes}}}}
|action1link=Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Albania/archive1
{{OnThisDay |date1=2004-11-28|oldid1=16335503|date2=2005-11-28|oldid2=29304681|date3=2006-11-28|oldid3=90576276|date4=2007-11-28|oldid4=174325507|date5=2008-11-28|oldid5=254539953|date6=2009-11-28|oldid6=328209906|date7=2010-11-28|oldid7=399342694|date8=2011-11-28|oldid8=462797273}}
|action1result=reviewed
{{oldpeerreview|archive=1|small=yes}}
|action1oldid=938698718
{{Archive box|auto=long}}

|otd1date=2004-11-28|otd1oldid=16335503|otd2date=2005-11-28|otd2oldid=29304681|otd3date=2006-11-28|otd3oldid=90576276|otd4date=2007-11-28|otd4oldid=174325507|otd5date=2008-11-28|otd5oldid=254539953|otd6date=2009-11-28|otd6oldid=328209906|otd7date=2010-11-28|otd7oldid=399342694|otd8date=2011-11-28|otd8oldid=462797273|otd9date=2012-11-28|otd9oldid=525319852|otd10date=2013-11-28|otd10oldid=583637590|otd11date=2014-11-28|otd11oldid=635675347|otd12date=2015-11-28|otd12oldid=692522926|otd13date=2017-11-28|otd13oldid=812580740}}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1=
⚫ {{WikiProject Albania|importance=Top}}
⚫ {{WikiProject Countries}}
{{WikiProject Eastern Europe|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Illyria|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome|importance=high}}
}}
{{Contentious topics/talk notice|topic=b|style=long}}

{{User:MiszaBot/config {{User:MiszaBot/config
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav|noredlinks=y}} |archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav|noredlinks=y}}
|maxarchivesize = 100K |maxarchivesize = 100K
|counter = 5 |counter = 12
|minthreadsleft = 5 |minthreadsleft = 2
|algo = old(90d) |algo = old(60d)
|archive = Talk:Albania/Archive %(counter)d |archive = Talk:Albania/Archive %(counter)d
}} }}
{{Auto archiving notice |bot=MiszaBot I |age=90 |small=yes |dounreplied=yes}}

== Italian occupation ==

Fascist Italy annexed Albania before WWII and not during it. Precisely, in April 1939. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== "Eastern Europe at the End of the 20th Century" as source on Greek minority ==

Yes, the figure is supported , see top of page 69. ] (]) 02:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
:<small>''(above comment copied from my talk page - ] (]) 07:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC))''</small>

:I see, he does give absolute figures, not percents, in that paragraph. But we should not use it. Jeffries opens with 1.7%, (on the previous page). And worse, the CIA number in that paragraph does not match the CIA number from the first source (the CIA itself). And the numbers are around twenty years old. And even worse, the author works with a population of 3.4 million - even if we could pick which of the numbers he means are likely accurate, none of us could say what that would like after a 20% reevaluation of the actual population. This source is not reliable for Albania's current population. ] (]) 07:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

::Which is not to say that the 3% figure is absolutely the right one, only that it is the only one we have properly sourced. If editors believe that number is low, let's find contemporary sources that provide a reliable alternative. ] (]) 06:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

== Demographics - Consensus ==

Sources are claiming 300,000 Greeks, too. Most Western reliable sources out there put the size of the Greek minority at around 200,000, or about '''6%''' of the population. Cia figures are from the 1989 census, and reliable sources that show higher figures than this, must be included the same, too.
--] (]) 18:12, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
:Please provide a source. The number may be correct, but neither "sources out there" or a link to a book with no page number, no cite, are adequate to support that number. ] (]) 18:23, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
::I suppose that it is also reasonable to ask that any source that gives ranges be applied to all groups. It will not do to have 95% Albanian, 2 - 6% Greek, and 2% Other. That is, a counter to the last official estimate for the population of the entire country, rather than for one group. I do not know how to find this, but I suspect it is out there. Too bad the CIA estimate is so old. ] (]) 18:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
:: Yes but since the number of calculation is correct, any show of higher figures counted as reliable sources and should be also included parenthetically as well. --] (]) 18:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

:::Not really. First, there needs to be a source for the number. But then, if it is not reported as a percent, we need to show great care if editors try to turn that number into a percent. How do we know how accurate the number is, how much rounding has taken place? But we don't even get there until we have a source. At this moment, that is the greater concern. ] (]) 18:46, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

:::However, it doesn't mean, it is not a reliable source and I believe it should be better be included too, as well (even parenthetically) --] (]) 18:59, 25 December 2011 (UTC)


== Demography and language ==
::::I am sorry for not being clear: we do not have a reliable source for 6%. We need one. ] (]) 19:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Well, we have the most reliable and most official authority on this matter, the UNPO (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization) and they give figures about the Greek minority and every other minority in the world.
STATISTICS


I came to this article to find answers to two questions: Where did the Albanian people come from? and what are the roots of the Albanian language? I find hints and fragmentary answers in the history sections of the article but the Demography and Language sections say nothing on either point. The link to the separate article on the Albanian language is very helpful; a short sentence from that article might be an appropriate addition to this section. ] (]) 16:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Status: Minority
:But this article is about the country called "Albania". It should provide information about the country, and it should stay focused on that, rather than repeatedly branching off in other directions.
Population: 70,000
:Its Demography section is rightfully about the makeup of the population of the country, without going off into details about the one ethnic group that happens to be its primary group but that, conversely, includes people who ''don't'' live in Albania. A link is provided to the article that's relevant to the information you're looking for on the ].
Area: 5,000 km²
:Its Language section is, as is proper, about the prevalence and use of various languages in the country, not about the details relating to just one of them, the one that happens to be the majority and official language, but which is also spoken outside of Albania. However, it appropriately highlights the link to the article that ''is'' relevant to what you were looking for, ].
Language: Greek
:So each topic is covered in its respective dedicated article, and this is why we have links! ] (]) 17:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Source: http://www.unpo.org/members/7874
Considering that actually Albania has a population of around 2.9-3 million, the Greek minority represents the 2.3-2.4% of the population. (] (]) 10:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)) :I'm from Canada. My wife is from Nigeria. Our kids are from Brasil. Not sure if that helps? ] (]) 06:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)


== Universal? ==
There is a general incosistency with the numbers presented by unpo (here ] it claims that the number is 400,000). In general cia factbook is the most preferred source in such cases.] (]) 13:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
: The link you provided took me to some document which is in Greek. There is a picture there, but i cannot verify that it belongs to UNPO. Then, the most updated information is usually taken as the actual information. Or should we stick to infos from centuries ago? CIA is not the world official source of information. I have seen that sometimes it has mistakes and erroneous information on some countries. Anyway, i checked it and...Surprise, this is what i saw:
Ethnic groups:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Albanian 95%, '''Greek 3%''', other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.)
note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from '''1% (official Albanian statistics)''' to 12% ('''from a Greek organization''').
So, the percentage is 3, and not 6 like you claim. There is no source where it says that it is 6%, thus it has to be removed. And bringing the claim of a Greek NGO is not reliable. I can bring you tens of claims of Albanian and other NGO which claim that Greek population in Albania is smaller than 1%, or that ethnic Albanian population in Greece is higher than 15%. (] (]) 14:33, 6 January 2012 (UTC))


" Albanian citizens have universal health care access and free primary and secondary education."
By the way, i just found another source: US Department of State, http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3235.htm which says:


It's not universal if only Albanians can use it. ] (]) 06:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
People
Population (2011 est.): 2,994,667.
Population growth rate (2011 est.): 0.267%.
Ethnic groups (2004 est., Government of Albania): Albanian 98.6%, Greeks 1.17%, others 0.23% (Vlachs, Roma, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Balkan Egyptians, and Bulgarians). (] (]) 14:50, 6 January 2012 (UTC))


:Universal healthcare means citizens of a country are assured healthcare, not the entire world. ] (]) 20:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Sure, there are various references about the percentage. CiaF is one of the best we have (3%). My objection is on the use of CiaF instead of unpo. On the other hand 6% (or 200,000) is the number most western sources adopt ].] (]) 17:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
:UNPO gives 70 000, so why not use UNPO? Western sources based on what? Or someone citing CIA? Just wait for few months until the results from the Albanian census of October 2011 come out and then you can have reliable national data. (] (]) 19:05, 6 January 2012 (UTC))


== Religion ==
::Because UNPO is not a ]. This book on the other hand, ''is'' a reliable source. I think part of the problem is you don't understand Misplaced Pages's policies regarding what constitutes a reliable source. Please see ], and in particular ]. UNPO is self-published and should be avoided. Also, you had made some mistakes in the history section. When Greece, Serbia and Montenegro invaded in 1912, Albania was still officially part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus, they couldn't have invaded ''Albania'', but rather the ''Ottoman Empire''. Also, to say that over half of Albania's "ethnic territory" was given away is POV and inaccurate. Since there hadn't been an independent Albania until then, it didn't have any "territory". That was ''Ottoman'' territory with an Albanian majority, but it's wrong to say "Albania's ethnic territory". ] (]) 22:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
:::That was cited from a Western, reliable source, ^ "Albania". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 6 January 2012.
Albania declared independence on 28 November 1912, and it declared independence of that territory you are referring as well. Given that many western sources say so, i cannot accept that a Greek decides what is history and what not. (] (]) 22:39, 6 January 2012 (UTC))


The page is locked but it inaccurately inflates the Christianity stats to 38%. The 2023 census states that 16% of Albanians are Christian by faith. Is there a way to fix this? ] (]) 18:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
::::What western reliable source? The figure of 200,000, which you keep removing, is sourced from a western reliable source. No one had recognized Albania's declaration of independence in 1912, so as far as the rest of the world was concerned, it was still Ottoman territory. Final warning, stop the ethnic insults. ] (]) 22:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:50, 30 November 2024

Skip to table of contents
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Albania article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13Auto-archiving period: 2 months 
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 21, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on November 28, 2004, November 28, 2005, November 28, 2006, November 28, 2007, November 28, 2008, November 28, 2009, November 28, 2010, November 28, 2011, November 28, 2012, November 28, 2013, November 28, 2014, November 28, 2015, and November 28, 2017.
This  level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconAlbania Top‑importance
WikiProject iconAlbania is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconCountries
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry
WikiProject Countries to-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
WikiProject iconEastern Europe (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Eastern Europe, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Eastern EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject Eastern EuropeTemplate:WikiProject Eastern EuropeEastern Europe
WikiProject iconIllyria High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Illyria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illyria and Illyrians on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllyriaWikipedia:WikiProject IllyriaTemplate:WikiProject IllyriaIllyria
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconClassical Greece and Rome High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Misplaced Pages's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Demography and language

I came to this article to find answers to two questions: Where did the Albanian people come from? and what are the roots of the Albanian language? I find hints and fragmentary answers in the history sections of the article but the Demography and Language sections say nothing on either point. The link to the separate article on the Albanian language is very helpful; a short sentence from that article might be an appropriate addition to this section. Billfalls (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

But this article is about the country called "Albania". It should provide information about the country, and it should stay focused on that, rather than repeatedly branching off in other directions.
Its Demography section is rightfully about the makeup of the population of the country, without going off into details about the one ethnic group that happens to be its primary group but that, conversely, includes people who don't live in Albania. A link is provided to the article that's relevant to the information you're looking for on the Albanian people.
Its Language section is, as is proper, about the prevalence and use of various languages in the country, not about the details relating to just one of them, the one that happens to be the majority and official language, but which is also spoken outside of Albania. However, it appropriately highlights the link to the article that is relevant to what you were looking for, Albanian language.
So each topic is covered in its respective dedicated article, and this is why we have links! Largoplazo (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm from Canada. My wife is from Nigeria. Our kids are from Brasil. Not sure if that helps? 79.106.203.42 (talk) 06:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Universal?

" Albanian citizens have universal health care access and free primary and secondary education."

It's not universal if only Albanians can use it. 79.106.203.42 (talk) 06:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Universal healthcare means citizens of a country are assured healthcare, not the entire world. Procakes (talk) 20:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Religion

The page is locked but it inaccurately inflates the Christianity stats to 38%. The 2023 census states that 16% of Albanians are Christian by faith. Is there a way to fix this? Saturnalia04 (talk) 18:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Categories: