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== Country section wording in infobox == == Proportion occupied by Israel ==


The article says 2/3 occupied by Israel. The accompanying map, with its thin line just east of the occupied area, seems to show a tiny strip remaining under Syrian control and around 90% occupied. Either the map is misleading, or it is wrong, or (I suppose less likely) the 2/3 is wrong. I hope someone can fix the map. ] (]) 04:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
<s>Time for a fresh discussion. The "Country" section in the infobox currently reads: "Internationally recognized as Syrian territory occupied by Israel. Currently under Israeli civil administration. Claimed by Syria." From , the purpose of an Infobox is "to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears."


I don't dispute the facts in the current wording, but I am sure that we can come up with more concise wording. Please propose improved wording below. ] (]) 08:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)</s><small>Blocked Sock</small> :I was just going to post about this since we see this, "Following the 2024 Syrian opposition offensives Israel occupied the remaining one third of the area." The map needs updating to reflect the full locations with Israelis present. ] (]) 19:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)


== Lede too long ==
:The wording is OK nothing should be changed.--] (]) 08:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


Lede is a summary of the body and should be ideally four well-composed paragraphs. The recent additions, especially to the last lede paragraph, has turned it into a bloated live blog instead of an encyclopaedic entry. ] (]) 16:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
::"Syrian territory under Israeli civil administration." seems enough for the infobox. --] (]) 08:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::<s>*That seems sufficient to me. It conveys the same information as the current wording but is much more readable. ] (]) 13:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
::*Any complaints with that as the new wording? ] (]) 02:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)</s><small>Blocked Sock</small>
:::*"Syrian territory occupied by Israel" seems to reflect the language used in the weight of sources better. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]]]</i> 09:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
::::*<s>First source: "Israel occupied the Syrian Goaln in 1967 and formally annexed it in 1981"
:::::Second: "...occupied Syrian Golan Heights..."
:::::Third: "...the occupied Syrian Golan..."
:::::Fourth: "the Syrian Golan Heights territory, which Israel has occupied since 1967"
:::::Fifth: "Israeli-occupied. Captured from Syria in the 1967 Middle East war, and annexed in 1981, a move condemned internationally. Lebanon claims Shab'a Farms area." ] (]) 11:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)</s><small>Blocked Sock</small>
::::::Nod, I find that "under Israeli civil administration" obfuscates the language used by sources, there is no reason for us to try to sanitize their wording. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">]]]</i> 09:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


:Agreed. I've edited the last paragraph already. Can we summarise some of the history? ] (]) 15:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
== "Syrian Golan" ==
::I've taken a stab at the history too. See what you think? ] (]) 15:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

:::Better now, the second lede paragraph still needs trimming, specifically avoiding the hyperfocus on ancient civilizations. ] (]) 08:46, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
In a now archived discussion with ], I demanded a source demonstrating that the Golan Heights are referred to as the "Syrian Golan" by the United Nations as justification for edit on 29 November (his first in the article). He failed to produce any sources to that effect, instead merely confirming the trivial fact that the United Nations considers the Golan Heights Syrian and refers to it as Syrian. His claim is therefore original research, and I've reverted it pending information to the contrary based on reliable secondary sources.—] (]) 07:43, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Agreed. Any better now? We could remove the ] too, if you'd prefer. ] (]) 10:03, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
: will show you a large number of UN documents refering to the "Syrian Golan". ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 08:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::Much better, thanks. Very pleasantly readable now. ] (]) 10:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
::The United Nations considers the Golan Heights Syrian territory, and it therefore calls the Golan "Syrian." That doesn't make "Syrian Golan" an alternative name. Do you have a source that says "Syrian Golan" is a name used by the United Nations – or anyone – in addition to Golan Heights? If the answer's no, you're editorializing.—] (]) 08:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
:::The question you posed was captious. The Syrian Golan as any google search will immediately show, is used in UN resolutions from decades back, right through to the present day in official documents. The usage is official, verifiably so, and you do not need a metasource to specify that the usage is standard in UN documents. Your revert was inappropriate.] (]) 08:37, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::There's nothing captious about insisting on a reliable source to verify a debatable claim that was inserted into the article by a sockpuppet against consensus. You're invited to produce a reliable source to confirm the claim you're endeavoring to establish – indeed, the burden of proof is on you to do so. Until then, though, it remains original research.—] (]) 08:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::The editor may have made it a claim. The fact that 'Syrian Golan' is established usage cannot be disputed. All that worries you is the idea that this usage be associated with the UN. Well drop the UN, and leave the term. Commonsense required simply, 'Syrian Golan' (in UN documents). They are official, and to pretend that somehow a statement of UN usage required third party sources in patent nonsense. There is no need to use Yehuda's language, it can be twigged to state the obvious verifiable fact. ] (]) 08:47, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::: "Syrian Golan" is such a stock phrase in UN documents that calling it anything except a name seems rather odd. I don't think explicit identification as a name is requested for other similar cases. But anyway, says "The UN- which always refers to the area as 'the Syrian Golan Heights'". ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 08:56, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
:::::{{ec}}Of course it can be disputed, and that's exactly what's happening. ]'s Google search shows that the word "occupied" precedes "Syrian Golan" in every instance where "Syrian Golan" is invoked in eight out of the first nine search results. Does that mean "occupied Syrian Golan" is an alt name for "Golan Heights"? It could mean that, but neither you nor I are qualified to make a determination one way or the other. That's what ] is for. When you want to make a claim that's obvious to the point where no sources are necessary because no one could reasonable challenge it, policy makes allowances for that. When a claim is being challenged, on the other hand, it's necessary to support it with reliable sources – and ''support'' here means "support directly," not "bring sources from which it can be inferred that ''x'' is true."—] (]) 08:57, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::::Zero0000's source above my last comment satisfies BOP as far as I'm concerned.—] (]) 09:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::Hey lads, if only all editing on the I/P was as fleet and fair as the above exchanges! In any case, I'm not article editing on these articles till 10th Jan as per my violation of IR. Would you restore it, with Zero's source, in whatever wording you think appropriate, Bio? ] (]) 09:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)Thanks
:::I was sure one of you two would have performed the edit by now. The earlier formulation can be restored, just with Zero's source as the ref instead of the refs YTA64 had there.—] (]) 09:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
::::Michael, and it's one thing I like about his style since he's done this several times, has jumped in and fixed it for us.] (]) 10:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

== Explaining my revert ==

I don't really know what to say, other than the area is not disputed territory held by Israel, but rather Syrian territory occupied by Israel. I am also here so I don't get blocked. -] (]) 17:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
:Well done. --<span style="font:8pt verdana; background-color:whitesmoke; border:1px solid gray">&nbsp;]<sup style="font-size:7pt">]</sup></span> 21:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

== Revert ==

Unexplained removal, I reverted back to correct text. -] (]) 20:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
:What a silly . The BBC source says "Population estimate: 20,000 Israeli settlers, 20,000 Syrians". How is it inaccurate? I am reverting back. -] (]) 22:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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Proportion occupied by Israel

The article says 2/3 occupied by Israel. The accompanying map, with its thin line just east of the occupied area, seems to show a tiny strip remaining under Syrian control and around 90% occupied. Either the map is misleading, or it is wrong, or (I suppose less likely) the 2/3 is wrong. I hope someone can fix the map. Zaslav (talk) 04:38, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I was just going to post about this since we see this, "Following the 2024 Syrian opposition offensives Israel occupied the remaining one third of the area." The map needs updating to reflect the full locations with Israelis present. Iljhgtn (talk) 19:31, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Lede too long

Lede is a summary of the body and should be ideally four well-composed paragraphs. The recent additions, especially to the last lede paragraph, has turned it into a bloated live blog instead of an encyclopaedic entry. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I've edited the last paragraph already. Can we summarise some of the history? Lewisguile (talk) 15:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I've taken a stab at the history too. See what you think? Lewisguile (talk) 15:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Better now, the second lede paragraph still needs trimming, specifically avoiding the hyperfocus on ancient civilizations. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:46, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. Any better now? We could remove the WP:SEAOFBLUE too, if you'd prefer. Lewisguile (talk) 10:03, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Much better, thanks. Very pleasantly readable now. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
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