| Revision as of 13:24, 12 April 2006 editCBDunkerson (talk | contribs)Administrators15,422 edits →Noteworthy?: Not for this article← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 18:21, 16 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,298,161 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien/Archive 6) (bot |
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{{FAOL|German|de:J. R. R. Tolkien|lang2=Esperanto|link2=eo:J.R.R. TOLKIEN|lang3=Japanese|link3=ja:J・R・R・トールキン|lang4=Norwegian|link4=no:J. R. R. Tolkien|lang5=Russian|link5=ru:Толкин, Джон Рональд Руэл|lang6=Serbian|link6=sr:Џ.Р.Р. Толкин|lang7=Slovak|link7=sk:John Ronald Reuel Tolkien}} |
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==FA?== |
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|action3date=16:19, 2 May 2009 |
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right, I would like to elevate this to FA status. A little more work is required, but I think the article is now at least as good as some of the other-language WP's FAs linked above. Any suggestions for what should be fixed? I'll put it on peer review in a couple of days, I think. ] <small>]</small> 07:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:I've only made minor contributions here, but in general I think this is very good. It could use a copyedit here and there -- especially in the intro there's the occasional awkward phrase -- and I'm not sure about the organization of some of the later sections, but it's very close to what it needs to be IMO. '']'' <small>] ]</small> 17:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::I've looked through it, and will list it on FAC now to get more input, we can always improve it as the objections come in. ] <small>]</small> 13:45, 13 November 2005 (UTC) |
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{{British English Oxford spelling|date=September 2010}} |
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==re-imported section== |
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I have only now realized that the "derivative art" section had been removed. I have re-inserted it. We do have a ] main article, but the point of the section in this article is specifically about Tolkien's take towards derivative art during his lifetime. Discussion of the works themselves, especially those created after 1973, go of course to the main article. Instead of a separate h2-section, this could conceivably also be a subsection of the "Old Age" section, since popularity of the LotR only really came into full swing after 1959, and Tolkien's losing battle against fandom began when he was already old. ] <small>]</small> 14:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2024 == |
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==Referencing effort== |
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The following is a list of statements that need a specific reference. (The Biography section is a summary of Carpenter's ''Biography'', with additional statements taken from ''Letters'' and referenced, and imho needs no further references. In most instances, we ''name'' the publication we are talking about. For example, |
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:"Beginning with '']'', written while recuperating from illness during World War I, Tolkien devised several themes that were reused in successive drafts of his legendarium. The two most prominent stories, the tales of Beren and Lúthien and that of Túrin, were carried forward into long narrative poems (published in '']'')" |
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as far as I'm concerned is sufficiently referenced with the two publications linked. |
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The "Works" section is already well referenced from ''Letters'', so I think we need mainly references for things in "Languages" and "Writing". ] <small>]</small> 11:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|J. R. R. Tolkien|answered=yes}} |
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*''From around 1936, he began to extend this framework to include the tale of The Fall of Númenor, which was inspired by the legend of Atlantis.'' (where did we get the 1936 date?) |
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J.R.R Tolkien - his death location is Bournemouth, Dorset, England. Not Bournemouth, Hampshire, England. Bournemouth is not in Hampshire. ] (]) 00:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
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*''Tolkien himself acknowledged Homer, Oedipus, and the Kalevala as influences or sources for some of his stories and ideas. His borrowings also came from numerous Middle English works and poems.'' (where did he do so?) |
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*''The library of Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin preserves many of Tolkien's original manuscripts, notes and letters; other original material survives at Oxford's Bodleian Library. '' |
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*'' In a 1999 poll of Amazon.com customers, The Lord of the Rings was judged to be their favourite "book of the millennium"'' |
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*''In 2002 Tolkien was voted the ninety second "greatest Briton" in a poll conducted by the BBC and in 2004 he was voted thirty fifth in a list of the Greatest South Africans,'' |
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*''in a 2004 poll inspired by the UK’s "Big Read" survey, about 250,000 Germans found The Lord of the Rings (Der Herr der Ringe) to be their favourite work of literature.'' |
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*''When in 1925, aged 33, Tolkien applied for the Rawlinson and Bosworth Professorship of Anglo-Saxon, he boasted that his students of Germanic philology in Leeds had even formed a "Viking Club".'' |
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:No, it was in Hampshire in Tolkien's time. It became Dorset in 1974, after his death. ] (]) 02:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:oh dear, I didn't get round to doing this before time ran out. I'll try to address all concerns in the RFA and re-submit it. Don't know when that will be, help is appreciated of course. ] <small>]</small> 09:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::There won't be any, as the IP is mistaken. I've clarified the infobox text. ] (]) 09:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Film complaints == |
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== Arthur's cause of Death == |
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I found no reference in the footnote for neither rheumatic fever or hemorrhage. Here is a paper that claims cause of death as typhoid with intestinal perforation and peritonitis. |
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Yes, we all know how PJ screwed with the story of LOTR when he committed it to film. He did indeed "add new situations to the films' plot", "leave out several of the book's characters and settings", and that "some characters have their roles modified or combined with those of other characters." There's a word for this in film adaptations of books. It's '''NORMAL'''. Nearly every film adaptation of a book ever done, from '']'' to '']'' (] of them) to '']'' has done this. It's not worth mentioning. For my own part, this merely scratches the surface of my complaints about the films, but I think it's really tiresome for the reader looking for basic information. If it belongs anywhere -- which I doubt -- it's ]. Unless a cogent reason can be presented for leaving this expanded analysis in, I'll be reverting it again. '']'' <small>] ]</small> 05:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC) |
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TOLKNIĘTY: Arthur Reuel Tolkien | death notice, testament, etc. (1896) ] (]) 02:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:yes, discussion of the Jackson trilogy has no place at all in this article (as opposed to those projects Tolkien still did comment on). PJ's movies have no relation to Tolkien, since Tolkien had been dead 30 years before PJ even thought about making the films. So yes, revert away :) ] <small>]</small> 08:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::But you got to it before I did. Thanks. '']'' <small>] ]</small> 06:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2024 == |
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==J. R. R.== |
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The spaces in the title are awkward, and look bad typographically. You wouldn't abbreviate ] "F. B. I.", would you? The spaces should go, and this article be moved to ]. ] \ <sup>] ]</sup> 13:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:], ], ], ], and various other variations (and mis-spellings) all redirect to this page. Thus, people using any of these will get to the right place and the question is only over how the page title should appear. Tolkien himself used the initials far more often than the full names and that is how he is generally known. I see 'J.R.R.' more often than 'JRR' or 'J. R. R.', but I believe the last is technically correct for abbreviations of a person's name. 'FBI', like most acronyms, is usually given without dots at all. --] ] 14:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:see also ]. 14:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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::I see. I also found ], which says every point has to be followed by a space. I don't agree to that at all, but the guide is thus. ] \ <sup>] ]</sup> 14:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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::I suggest deletion of any "Tolkein" redirects. The misspelling is far too common (not as a typo, but by people who actually think this is how the name is spelled), and I consider {{tl|R from misspelling}} harmful in most cases (it prevents you from spotting misspellings, that would otherwise show up as redlinks). ] <small>]</small> 18:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:::The purpose is to save people who search for the mis-spelling. ''] ]''. 22:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|J. R. R. Tolkien|answered=yes}} |
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==filmed interview== |
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In the biography, under his childhood, it states that "(Tolkien) thought Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll was "amusing but disturbing". using J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography as a source. This is not the case, in fact, on page 28, the author tells how Tolkien was "amused by Alice in Wonderland, though he had no desire to have adventures like Alice." I do not believe that having no desire to have similar adventures are the same as finding a story amusing but disturbing. ] (]) 23:37, 11 December 2024 (UTC) |
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movie clip (mov format) is taken from a 1992 video documentary entitled "J.R.R.T. - A Film Portrait Of J.R.R. Tolkien" -- but can anybody tell me when the actual interview took place, and who made it (is it BBC?) -- there is another interview, dated to 1971, , by Denys Gueroult for BBC, but it is audio only. ] <small>]</small> 16:06, 2 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:I forgot to list the author, J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography by Humphrey Carpenter. ] (]) 23:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC) |
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==Works Inspired== |
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How about Stephen King's books? In several of his stories (The Shining, Insomnia, etc.), King uses Tolkien's characters often as parallels to his own. Should he be considered? 01:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC) |
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:possibly at the main article; we're trying to keep it confined to works JRRT himself commented on in this article. ] <small>]</small> 11:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC) |
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::{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> In what seems to be a clear case of ], this quote can be found in a number of places on the web, but all cited back to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 23:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC) |
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==Request for article check== |
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== Ancestry == |
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Hi, can someone who knows their Tolkien facts better than I check the commentary section of ] for accuracy and NPOV? |
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--] 21:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC) |
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The ancestry section is too large. ] (]) 04:53, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:It states Tolkien's criticisms clearly and fairly, as I recall them. ] 16:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:It's around 300 words, under 4% of the article, which does not seem unreasonable. Its 'main' link to ] is to a 4,500 word article, so a 300 word summary seems reasonable from that point of view too. ] (]) 08:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC) |
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==Christian books== |
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-- maybe an article on ] or even ] is in order with the recent surge of "find God via Tolkien" publications. ] <small>]</small> 15:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:Calling it "Christian propaganda" is a bit POV I think. It's been clearly established that Tolkien was a devout ]. While he stated on numerous occassions that the books were not meant to be allegorical, they do examine the nature of good and evil, of light and darkness, of how the smallest, meekest individual can affect the fate of many. It would not be unreasonable to examine how Tolkien's Christian beliefs had an affect on the stories. IMO, Tolkien's works do a better, more subtle job than C.S. Lewis's Narnian chronicles. While the paragraph looked more like a sales pitch for the book, I believe removing it entirely was not correct. However, it should not be listed under the derivative works section. --] 16:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::we can drop the "propaganda", but an article on "Tolkien and Christianity" may still be warranted. Yes he was a Christian. That doesn't mean his books are there to be employed for proselytization. If he had wanted to he as in-your-face Christian as Lewis, he could have done that himself. ] <small>]</small> 22:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC) |
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::Deleting it was fully correct. It simply lifted the last two sentences of the blurb here and was little more than a promo for the book. '']'' <small>] ]</small> 22:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC) |
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== highly unusual == |
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went to http://en.wikipedia.org/Tolkien and it said "Joe Rock Red Tire" instead of "John Ronald Reuel Tolkien", and i refreshed it and it went back to normal. what was that all about? |
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:Since Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone we occasionally get people vandalizing articles. So what happened is that when you loaded it the first time the incorrect text was on there, but then by the time you refreshed the page someone had gone through and corrected it. --] <big><sub>]</sub></big> <sup>]</sup> 19:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC) |
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==POV?== |
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"he made a somewhat sarcastic comment" ''] ]''. 22:53, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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:I think so. The remark in question didn't strike me as necessarily sarcastic at all, and such a reading didn't even occur to me until I saw it here. '']'' <small>] ]</small> 02:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC) |
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:::''he made a somewhat sarcastic comment about a fan letter by a twelve-year-old American reader (It's nice to find that little American boys do really still say 'Gee Whiz'., Letters no. 87)'' |
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::If you know Tolkien's attitude towards American English, the comment can be interpreted as nothing but sarcastic. ] <small>]</small> 10:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==Archived FAC Discussion== |
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Here it is ] - ] 09:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Far too many <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> templates. == |
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Seriously... there's no need for all those citations anyway - they'll ruin readability. Cite the sources at the end of the article instead. ] 18:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:I agree it is a little overboard. Most of the requested citations can be found in the three references already listed. Do we really need to put (Carpenter 1977) or (Carpenter 1981) at the end of every other sentence in the article? Likewise, the request for a reference about the Peter Jackson films is (aside from being common knowledge / readily confirmable) met by the link to the entire Misplaced Pages article on the subject which appears in the same sentence. --] 18:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::I agree as well. If there're more than a few sentences all from the same source, then I think citing the sources at the end of the article would be alright. —] 20:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:::If you can do a footnote to each fact tag, it will not obscruct readability, and FAC will be a breeze. It's good to stick tightly to your sources, especially on Featured Articles. Of course most of the statements will be from Carpenter or HoME, but having the page reference handy won't hurt. ] <small>]</small> 10:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I disagree. Footnotes ''do'' obstruct readability. ] 14:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::I think we'll value encyclopedicity over "easy reading" any day, but you may be interested in ]. ] <small>]</small> 16:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::Encyclopedias don't list individual references for each individual factual statement. People are valuing 'something' over readability, but it isn't 'encyclopedicity'. I don't know what to call it. 'Referencitis'? --] 16:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::I don't know how footnotes encumber your reading experience, I can only say that I find they rather enhance mine. Also, I'm just the messenger here. I submitted this article to FAC some time ago, and it was turned down because of unsatisfactory density of references. Take a look at our ]s: ]: 46 footnotes. ]: 22 footnotes. ]: 85 footnotes. ]: 38 footnotes. ] <small>]</small> 17:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::::My point is that the information in an encyclopedia should be verifi''able'' - all the claims/facts stated in the article should be verifiable if one checks other sources - but that verification doesn't have to be supplied in the encyclopedia article itself. A bibliography is a good idea, but excessive footnote citations make the article look less like an encyclopedia entry and more like an essay. That said, I can put my opinions about citationmania aside for now - getting the article up to standard is paramount. This isn't the place for arguing about Misplaced Pages's manual of style anyway. - ] 18:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::::WP may be special in this regard. You have a point, considering encyclopedias edited by solid boards of editors. Since WP is Schroedinger's encyclopedia, however, it is reassuring to have things sourced as closely as possible, to dispel as much as possible suspicions that a given statement may have been snuck in by a stoned kid last week. ] <small>]</small> 18:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::::::This, of course, is very true. Misplaced Pages is very special in this regard - point taken! ▫ ] <sup>]</sup> 14:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC) |
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looking at the present state of the article, I admit it is now well referenced, and some of the remaining 'fact' tags are a bit over the top. I am removing those I find to be so. ] <small>]</small> 17:15, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Link pruning == |
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There are too many internal links in this article; they obstruct readability. I'm going to go through and remove those that are duplicated, redundant, or just plain useless (like years and dates). Hopefully this will improve the look of the article while still providing reference where necessary. ] 02:24, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:I've done the dates, and a few other housekeeping and tiny content details. ''] ]'' 09:17 ] ] (UTC). |
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=="primary" vs. "secondary" sources== |
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I don't get your division here. How is David Day's book a "primary" source, and the Tolkien's "Family album" a secondary source? Strictly speaking, primary sources are written accounts about Tolkien by Tolkien himself and by "eye-witnesses". But we don't need the distinction. What we need is a distinction between references sourcing statements made in the article on one hand, and literature listed as recommendations for further reading on the other, hence my change to the ToC. ] <small>]</small> 17:28, 13 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==''English and Welsh''== |
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In the Academic Works section, most of the lectures and essays are linked. There's a mention of "''1963 English and Welsh, in Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures, University of Cardiff Press.''". We have an '']'' article about a Tolkien lecture. I have not linked to it, though, because it describes the thing as a ''valedictory address to the University of Oxford of 1955, explaining the origin of the word "Welsh".'' Are they the same thing? I have no idea. So someone who knows the topic can decide whether to link it or not :) --] ] 00:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC) |
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:yes, they are. The lecture ''held'' in 1955 was ''printed'' in 1963. ] <small>]</small> 07:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==Academic accomplishments?== |
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Is it worth adding that Tolkien set in motion, during his time at the ], the project that would ultimately produce '']'' (a record of the dialect words used in England)? Admittedly he did not remain at Leeds long enough to be an actual contributor to the project, but ] (in ''The Mother Tongue'') notes that the original idea for the project was Tolkien's. I didn't know if it would be a good non-LOTR detail to help give a more rounded picture of his life, or whether it was too minor to be mentioned. ] 21:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== Noteworthy? == |
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Is the big list of names in the section "Tolkien's family in the English Census" noteworthy? I don't think it is... ▫ ] <sup>]</sup> 12:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC) |
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:It might be worthwhile for inclusion in some form in a 'Tolkien family' article, but not here. --] 13:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC) |
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J.R.R Tolkien - his death location is Bournemouth, Dorset, England. Not Bournemouth, Hampshire, England. Bournemouth is not in Hampshire. 86.16.42.48 (talk) 00:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
I found no reference in the footnote for neither rheumatic fever or hemorrhage. Here is a paper that claims cause of death as typhoid with intestinal perforation and peritonitis.
TOLKNIĘTY: Arthur Reuel Tolkien | death notice, testament, etc. (1896) 46.182.188.199 (talk) 02:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
In the biography, under his childhood, it states that "(Tolkien) thought Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll was "amusing but disturbing". using J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography as a source. This is not the case, in fact, on page 28, the author tells how Tolkien was "amused by Alice in Wonderland, though he had no desire to have adventures like Alice." I do not believe that having no desire to have similar adventures are the same as finding a story amusing but disturbing. Somemineral (talk) 23:37, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Done In what seems to be a clear case of WP:CITOGENESIS, this quote can be found in a number of places on the web, but all cited back to Misplaced Pages. PianoDan (talk) 23:53, 11 December 2024 (UTC)