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older entries

Did they ever release Fritz V.'s entire name? Canadianism 21:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Difficulty with authorities?

Did Asperger experience any difficulty with the authorities in Austria while carrying out his research ? Given the general environment in early 1940's Austria in which social attitudes to anything that was percieved as a disability, disorder or even eccentric/nonconforming behaviour were (to put it mildly) intolerant it is hard to imagine how such research could have been undertaken in such a society ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.88.39 (talk) 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Dr.A did have trouble / conflict with NAZI authorities and if they'd ever found out what he did he'd 've been treated like a double agent. Bullet on the spot. He hid all very well, not a trace today. Yes, what he did was in the environment rather impossible. Ing.walter.hartmann (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ing.walter.hartmann (talk • contribs) 04:13, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Involvement in Nazi T-4 program?

Hans Asperger worked in Nazi state hospitals during the 1930's, the time when the T-4 Euthanasia program to eliminate mental patients was in progress. Rumors based on biographies and personal notes of Hans Asperger spoke on his research on adults displayed "autistic" behaviors, was said related to the T-4 Euthanasia program. I wish to uncover the sources to prove this well-known theory that the Nazis hired Dr. Asperger to investigate mental/neurological disorders. It's well popular myth of other psychiatrists in the research field of autism like Bruno Bettelheim, although an Austrian Jew faced internment in Nazi concentration camps in 1938 was said to participated in the Nazi state hospitals, and Bettelheim was hired a camp doctor to serve Jewish prisoners. Bettelheim left Germany in 1941 to first Australia and in 1945 to the U.S. continued his research in autism and behavioral therapies of autistic adult patients. Now back to the question: Has Dr. Asperger took part in the Nazi T-4 program, even though not involved in any euthanasia? But his role in the Leipzig state hospital was to supervise and study mental patients in a way for Nazi officials to decide on matters...the value of their lives.--Mike D 26 07:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This information was found to be factually incorrect after detailed analysis of Hans Asperger's work by qualified medical professional's psychologists, psychiatrists and historians examined all of the the patients Hans Asperger had involvement in as a director of the institution Asperger's reports and recommendations where examined. They where able to trace all Asperger's patients outcomes. Asperger never referred any of his patients for euthanasia but did recommend them for treatment and care at pedagogical institutes. Am Spiegelgrund doctors were forbidden by law from speaking about the child euthanasia program and could face being sent to a concentration camp if they did doctors who had referred patients for treatment and care at the institution did not know about the institutions darker past until 1942 and some where only informed by the parents of what had happened in fact one of Asperger's colleagues who had refereed patients there joined the resistance as a result. For Asperger it was to late he had been drafted in to the army and only learned about this after the war ended. The doctors and the historians did a really good examination available here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.16571 2A00:23C8:A476:5901:5C36:FCBD:C4B8:BC01 (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly Aspergers was found not guilty of involvement in the child euthinasia program and all charges against him were dropped by the military tribunal held at the Hague which found Asperger had not involvement in the child euthinasia program they also had full access to all the files at the time sadly many of the files they had access to have went missing either because they were sent to the UK, US or Russia. Or were lost as a result of the miss management of the files by allied forces at a later date. However the Hague cleared Asperger of all charges on the grounds he did not participate in the euthanasia program. 2A00:23C8:A476:5901:5C36:FCBD:C4B8:BC01 (talk) 01:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Ernst Tatzer, Werner Maleczek, and Franz Waldhauser, the authors of an article claiming that Hans Asperger would not have known about a child killing institution called Am Spiegelgrund, violate the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.

"CONFLICT OF INTEREST

ET and FW were students and later colleagues of Hans Asperger, as previously documented,52, 53 and WM has been friends with the Asperger family for many years."

Tatzer E, Maleczek W, Waldhauser F. An assessment of what Hans Asperger knew about child euthanasia in Vienna during the Nazi occupation. Acta Paediatr. 2023; 112: 1109–1119. https://doi.org/10.1111/apa.16571

Autisticattitudes (talk) 06:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The commentary above seems founded on an extremely vague understanding of what euthanasia was in the Third Reich. The euthanasia decree was only issued in September 1939. It purported to be for the relief of the suffering of incurably ill people. The decree was withdrawn two years after it was issued. During that time only 70,000 instances of euthanasia occurred, less than one in one-thousand Germans. This is far, far too small a number to include all moderately retarded or moderately psychotic people in the population. Hadding (talk) 09:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(It's perhaps rather late to reply to Hadding's comment above, but Silberman (Neurotribes, cited in the actual wiki article) gives a figure of more than 200,000 killed during the official phase of child euthenasia and the T-4 program. 88.144.51.83 (talk) 23:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC))

I personally would be interested in knowing if Asperger's positive 1944 take on the societal role of people with high functioning autism could have been influenced at all by humanitarian objectives (e.g. reinforcing the social value of persons who might otherwise have been subject to prosecution at the hands of the Nazis).99.240.139.189 (talk) 05:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

The paper on the link below has just been published and looks as though it will be highly relevant to this topic. I have no expertise in this field so have not attempted edits of the article myself. https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.164.195 (talk) 07:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

A more recent paper found it is very unlikely that Asperger knew about the euthanasia program at all, since only 2 of the 13 patients he sent were euthanized, the rest receiving adequate care. The 2 that died were referred before the majority of the deaths in the euthanasia program, so any word of deaths or disappearances that may have been in public concern could have easily been dismissed as rumors by his colleagues since all of his patients there were still receiving quality care.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/apa.16571 CrazyFroster (talk) 22:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Unclear wording

"Her paper, Asperger's syndrome: a clinical account, was published in 1981 and it challenged the previously accepted model of autism presented by Leo Kanner in 1943. Unlike Kanner, his findings were ignored and disregarded in the English speaking world in his lifetime. His clinic was bombed during the war as well. Finally, from the early 1990s, his findings began to gain notice, and nowadays Asperger's Syndrome is recognized as a condition world wide."

Are they talking about another person here, or should the second pronoun be her? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.170.40.107 (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

Pronunciation

What is the correct pronunciation of Hans Asperger's name? Aardvark92 06:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

or . I think. Whether the trill is uvular or alveolar depends on dialect. I suck at IPA... #29 08:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

To hear a native German speaker pronounce Hans Asperger's name, go to How to pronounce Hans Asperger on Forvo.com Sparrowrose (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

If, seventy years after the period in question , no definitive proof has been found to verify Asperberg's participation in the T-4 program it may be time to put the question to rest-especially since he is long dead and cannot defend himself. The now discredited Bruno Bettelheim seems to left Germany in 1939, not 1941. It would curious indeed if he had been allowed to leave after the beginning of hostilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.230.34 (talk) 04:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Asperger and Eugenics

The full relevant chapter can be accessed here:
I would direct you to statements by Asperger such as those regarding "the transmission of sick genetic material," (p. 16) although it is worth bearing in mind that this work is very one sided (i.e., pro-Asperger) and other more critical works exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.44.1.174 (talk) 13:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editing is governed by policies and guidelines. One very important policy is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. We report what cited reliable sources say. This is essentially what the source you're citing has to say on the matter of his affiliation with the Nazi Party. If you want to say something else, please find a recent biography of the man that refutes that position. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:32, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The source used says exactly what was stated in the article. Also, it must be made clear that the fact Asperger was in the Hitler Youth is not in doubt; he was, yet it is his views towards it that are the only thing in question. Similarly, Asperger made eugenics statements; this too is not in doubt and is an established fact. Again, the source given makes this clear. I understand that you yourself might believe you have the syndrome named after this man, but try not to let it cloud your judgement or lead you to try to hide obvious and indisputable facts about the man's life. No one is saying that Asperger was a NAZI, simply that these links explain certain parts of his early views. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.207 (talk) 15:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow. How incredibly rude. As I said in an edit summary, I couldn't care less what the man's history is. I care about accurately representing our sources. You're claiming stuff here that is not supported by the sources you cite. Please stop making stuff up. Do a little actual work. Find sources that actually agree with the claims you're making. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I am the only one here adding sources. You either read them and ignore them, or simply do not understand them. Stating that Asperger's diagnoses are currently accepted is an outright falsehood. Your edits in relation to his early life simply delete details you don't like, and make less sense to anyone reading the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.207 (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The source does not support the claims made for it. In particular note (regarding eugenics) the comments by Marc Bush on page 16, comments on page 11 making clear that his diary was critical of Nazism, later mentions of how he opposed eugenics (specifically wrt the syndrome), page 18 that he was never a "Nazi", and no connecting of Asperger to the "Hitler Youth" at all. The page 15 claim is that one person "fervently believed that Asperger has either been a member of Hitler Youth ..." which fails to meet the requirements for the claim made at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC) Also note the source on page 15 states There seems to be no evidence of this whatsoever— indeed, the very opposite is more likely to be the case, as we shall see shortly. Connecting Asperger to Hitler and Naxis here is a nice example of source-misuse. Collect (talk) 12:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I (who originally added this source) never even mentioned the term NAZI in the article; information regarding Asperger's use of eugenics early in his work was mentioned only. The term NAZI got added in later edits. This source fully acknowledges that Asperger did in fact make these eugenics statements, although upon re-reading it certainly muddies the waters regarding Asperger's participation in Hitler Youth (understandably, as it is a pro-Asperger syndrome source). Nevermind, other sources exist for this information. However I take exception to the charge of "source-misuse"; the source fully acknowledges eugenics related statements made by Asperger even while seeking to diminish and dismiss them—hardly a compelling argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.104 (talk) 13:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I was going to retire from this page but I'll just answer this. Yes. Weinstein, p.15 says some critics have claimed that Asperger himself had affinities with the Nazis. But we do our best to reflect the current consensus, and in the little reading I've done on this question so far, I haven't encountered one author in the last thirty years defending Schopler's view, and I have seen numerous recitals of the position Weinstein takes. You'll need to demonstrate that Schopler's view was ever taken seriously, and how seriously it is taken now by scholars in the field, before we can determine if it's worth mentioning and, if so, how to characterise its degree of acceptance over time. Find a current reliable source that supports Schopler's view, or that throws light on its past and present degree of acceptance by the scholarly community, and we can adjust the weight we give to that view accordingly. Until then, we report the apparent current scholarly consensus as expressed by Weinstein, and which I think I captured quite well here. -Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much for bringing this book to the page, by the way. I enjoyed the chapter you posted above very much. I've always wanted to know the history of autism. In this conversation I said I'd like to write an article about the word, autism, as Bleuler and Kraepelin used it, and this text will be very helpful with that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No problem, I think the historical development of autism is poorly understood and is a major part of the nosological vaugeness regarding AS. This has lead to AS being little more than a catch-all for both individuals with high-functioning autism, as well as people raised in dysfunctional/unloving environments with—in all likelihood—no genetic etiology. The academic disarray in regards to AS renders it the most extreme example of this kind of confusion, rivaling only Dissociative identity disorder (that I know of at least). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.127.239 (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with every word of that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:12, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

'AP' ?

In this sentence in the first paragraph: "Both Asperger's original paediatric diagnosis of AP and the eponymous diagnosis of AS ...", the term 'AP' is never properly introduced and expanded. Fix please? 124.168.80.92 (talk) 06:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

"AP" stands for "autistic psychopathy," the condition he described. NRPanikker (talk) 02:11, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Franz "Hamburger"

My edit clearly needs a fuller explanation. Seriously, who would have such a surname? It makes no sense at all. I am certain that Feinstein has at best found a poor translation and got the name wrong, or at worst just make it up because he couldn't translate it. That's why I removed the source, no matter what the rules say about reference accuracy, ISBN numbers etc. I don't doubt the book says it. What I'm saying is the book has to be wrong. It's the reason why we need another source to back it up, and until then (in my opinion) the reference needs to come down and the name removed. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The text is cited to two google books. There are multiple mentions of Franz Hamburger in both Google Scholar and in PubMed. Almost all of the articles are in German, or full text of the article is not available, so I can't add much on those, but this source specifically places a Dr. Franz Hamburger in Austria in the early 1900s. Perhaps someone can access PMID 13203537. Another mention is here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Also, I've removed your link to the article about Franz Hamburger in the German Wiki and left a redlink for his article to be created here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

See also: Hamburger (surname). Not to mention Felix Frankfurter, Albert R. Broccoli, Richard Bacon, John Candy, and innumerable Wieners. I think I'd rather be a Hamburger than a Wiener. Ruby Murray 23:20, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm shaking my head in disbelief here. All you're doing is showing multiple examples of a poor English translation linking to that list of surnames. It's the only example of the use of an American term for a fast food, which is distinct from all the others which are either German originally (Frankfurter and Wiener) or world wide. It's also offensive because of the relationship the name has with the derogatory "Assburger" term. It has to be wrong! Hanburger or even Hahnburger makes more sense, but no we have this Americanism instead. This needs to be examined properly and the origin of the name fully explored so the correct translation can be found. I've already found one example of the surname being used to smear the Autistic community - that's what brought me here in the first place. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 07:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This is neither an Americanism nor a slur. Why do you think it's a translation? There is, after all, a major German city called Hamburg (neither a translation nor a transliteration). It is very easy to find other references to this surname, including both of these links found very quickly using Google: here and here. Clearly, the name has been in user before the name Asperger was known in this context. If the name has been used elsewhere as a slur, that is irrelevant here. DaveSeidel (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. A "Hamburger" originally only meant someone from Hamburg, just as a New Yorker is from New York and a Londoner is from London. Centuries later, "hamburger" also came into use as a nickname for a ground meat patty, just as Berliner normally means someone from Berlin, but can also mean a type of doughnut, among other things. I would guess that Asperger's family were from Asperg, Germany. Ruby Murray 17:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If I was from Hamburg and was called a "Hamburger" I'd slap them! Seriously! "Hamburger" is best known as an American take away food. This is reading like a pack of excuses. There's a serious issue here, and no Dave it IS being used as a slur in this context so it's not irrelevant. I'd link you, but I'll bet it's been blacklisted and rightly so. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 08:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Another editor has added this book reference in English about how Asperger was taught in Vienna by Dr. Franz Hamburger. If you can provide verifiable evidence from reliable sources to disprove the references given, please do so. Until then, the consensus here is clearly to keep this referenced and correct content. Thanks, Ruby Murray 12:04, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay obviously this mistake has become ingrained and can't be corrected easily. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief. Maybe one day sanity will prevail and the mistake corrected. Meanwhile though, this error will continue to be used by scaremongers as a slur. Disgusting. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 21:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Please take one more look at the sources SandyGeorgia linked to back at the beginning of this thread. The name is clearly cited. It's also clear that this is a real name, used by real people. If you can come up with any evidence that the usage of this name in this context is incorrect, please provide a citation. Otherwise, there's nothing more to discuss. We simply can't remove cited information in favor of unproven supposition. DaveSeidel (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I already did, so don't patronise me. I stand by my belief that there has been a bad translation and it is being used as a slur and I remain disgusted that the error has occurred and has become ingrained in sourcing. If you can't see the issue in spite of the sourcing you state takes precedence then you're a part of the problem. 121.214.29.71 (talk) 23:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

that's nice, we've heard you. If you come back with a source that supports your view, we might have a problem and even a solution. If not, please read WP:NOTAFORUM. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Georg Frankl

The Georg Frankl mentioned as working with Asperger before WWII must not to be confused with George Frankl, the philosopher, psychoanalyst and writer: born Vienna 12 December 1921; died London 25 December 2004. George Frankl was imprisoned in Dachau but escaped and was able to relocate to England in 1939 (not the USA) where he later became a British citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daisyabigael (talk • contribs) 12:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

1. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/george-frankl-18089.html

Since Asperger's and Kanner's Frankl was a chief diagnostician before 1937, which means he must have had some kind of professional qualifications and some experience and probably even reputation (well) before 1937, the risk of mistaking him for his in 1937 15-year-old namesake is negligible. 62.96.235.232 (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

The physician Georg Frankl (George Frankl once he came to the USA) is an unrecognised forefather of both autism and Asperger's Syndrome, but it's difficult to say much about him here as this is a live topic of discussion in the literature of the field. He was a senior colleague of Asperger's, but may have been passed over as candidate for headship of their unit due to his being Jewish. I don't know what he published in German, but his paper on "Language and Affective Contact" was published alongside Kanner's in "Nervous Child." He worked with Kanner in the USA for some time. He may well have brought that aspect of ASD to Kanner's and possibly Asperger's and others' attention. His autobiography is incomplete and so far unpublished. "Chief Diagnostician" is an awkward construct and most likely not his official title. NRPanikker (talk) 15:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

One-sided?

In April this year, information discrediting Hans Asperger was added to the article, based on the recently published book by Donvan and Zucker. This book has received mixed reviews, see for example (by Steve Silberman) and (The Guardian). What astonishes me is that the article now cites Donvan and Zucker but not Steve Silberman's Neurotribes, making it rather one-sided.

Some notes on individual statements:

• "Asperger was discovered to have been associated with the Nazi Party." While not saying 'affiliated', it nonetheless suggests a strong involvement or support for the Nazis, but even Donvan and Zucker themselves summarize Herwig Czech's conclusions on this topic (Czech was theire main source) like this: "Asperger took care during the war to safeguard his career and to burnish his "Nazi credibility". Asperger ... did what was necessary." Almost all Asperger's non-Jewish colleagues actually joined the Nazi party, but Asperger apparently did not, although Czech discovered that he twice applied for a job at affiliate organizations. I think the word 'associated' may be too strong.
• Note that the tense of the phrase is confusing: being in the career section, it suggests a discovery in the 1940s... The paragraph "During World War II, he was a medical officer" has also a chronological problem: it was at the end of the war so it should be further down, or perhaps in the 'Personal' section.
• The sentence about Heil Hitler is taken almost literally from the Donvan and Zucker book. While not mandatory, the salutation was very customary in certain circles and situations, and avoidance of it could raise doubts about one's loyalty to the regime. Even opponents of the regime could use the words in public to avoid suspicions. More information about the letters (not present in the book), for example to whom they were addressed, is needed to make a careful judgment.
• That Asperger sent a girl to Am Spielgrund is awful, but the impression in other publications is that he tried to save many other children from this fate.
• Donvan and Zucker argue that Asperger had a preference for children with more abilities and 'social worth', but precisely his emphasis on the children's abilities can be seen as attempts to protect them from the general oppression of the disabled at the time. Compare how this book and Silberman's view interpret Asperger's address in 1938 and his 1944 article.
• The article concludes with a derisive remark by Eric Schopler. It should also include the very different view held by Silberman: that autism research and practice in the English-speaking world has actually been hindered for decades by neglecting Asperger's insights.

Bever (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs some clean-up around this dispute. Can you try and add some of these counterpoints to the article? We might need a new section to talk about these claims and the controversy surrounding them. TheDracologist (talk) 00:04, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

I've replaced the one-sided portion with a brief mention of the fact that there is a debate happening with citations pointing to both sides of the debate. I'm going to start a discussion topic to see if people think adding a section about the debate would be giving it undue weight or not. TheDracologist (talk) 01:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Better source for Nazi ties would be nice

The current source is a magazine article adapted from a book. If something this big is true, certainly there should be better sources out there. Are there any official statements about the letters from people who aren't trying to sell a book? TheDracologist (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

This paper might help: Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and “race hygiene” in Nazi-era Vienna from "Molecular Autism", Brain, Cognition and Behavior2018 9:29 213.162.104.171 (talk) 10:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

It is stated that “there is no evidence to suggest that his attitude towards National Socialism has tainted his contribution to autism research.” Aside from the report that researcher "Czech found evidence that Asperger referred children to the notorious Am Spiegelgrund clinic, a euthanasia facility where 772 children are said to have been killed.” Does Mengele’s entry include such a generous qualification?

Hans Asperger ‘Actively Assisted’ Nazi Eugenics Policies, Study Claims Nicmart (talk) 22:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Nazi Ties Debate Section

There is some debate as to whether or not Hans Asperger had ties to the Nazi party. Should this debate get its own section, or would that be giving the topic undue weight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDracologist (talk • contribs) 02:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

The edits been dons last days are part of a massedit made on very many versions implying he was a "Nazi doctor". It is very questionable if this new source is enough to make this connection. On many versions this new info have been reverted.Yger (talk) 08:24, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

This seems very much over the top, others who have been admonished have been at least members of the Nazi party, such as Friedrich Wegener, and even for that there was a lengthy debate. As far as it goes, I have heard nothing of the curfuffle, and truth be told it was impossible to live in Nazi Germany without affiliating in some way with the NSDAP. If there is no indication that he actively took part it should not be included in the article. Carl Fredrik 11:30, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Here is a synopsis of the study, maybe someone can find the full text. The number of outlets that picked this up would indicate to me that his Nazi ties need more prominence (even as I removed it from the image caption, only because as my edit summary suggests it was unnecessary detail for that spot). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Herwig Czech is an historian sans c.v. for anyone to gauge the article's importance in the historical community. Most important is the fact that he avoided any direct links to the Nazi party. I am unsure if the weight now given is even supportable given the single source. Collect (talk) 11:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

"marginal involvement in child euthanasia programs" will probably be sufficient! Mighty Antar (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

This seems like a gross mischaracterization of what the referenced article in Molecular autism is saying (at cursory glance). I will sit down with this later and rectify this. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Please see the discussion on the RS noticeboard . It mentions a source from another scholar that supports the study. There's also this editorial , which accompanied the Czech study. It was authored by several prominent autism researchers and a well-known neurodiversity advocate Here's the key paragraph from the editorial:

We write this Editorial for two reasons. First, to assert the importance of this kind of scholarship and its relevance to this Journal, which aims to publish excellent research into autism of any kind, whether the research focuses on the molecular, neurological, psychological, clinical, or in this case social aspects. Second, to underline our support of this article for exploring in meticulous detail how a medical doctor, Hans Asperger, who for a long time was seen as only having made valuable contributions to the field of pediatrics and child psychiatry, was, as Herwig Czech’s newly unearthed evidence shows, also guilty of actively assisting the Nazis in their abhorrent eugenics and euthanasia policies. We are persuaded by Herwig Czech’s important article that Asperger was not just doing his best to survive in intolerable conditions but was also complicit with his Nazi superiors in targeting society’s most vulnerable people. (emphasis added)

According to the editorial, Asperger's activities went beyond "marginal involvement." CatPath (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The scholarly article is the "reliable source". Editorial opinions thereon are not a "reliable source" for claims of fact. Collect (talk) 21:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

My primary reason for mentioning the editorial wasn't to include it in the article as a reference (though one could argue that it serves as a secondary source). I mentioned the editorial because it highlights the significance of Czech's study, especially when two peer reviewers of the study broke their anonymity to be authors of the editorial, which I again emphasize was written by experts in the fields of autism and neurodiversity. The book mentioned on the RS noticeboard, Asperger's Children: the Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna does serve as another source. CatPath (talk) 19:22, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I just got done watching Professor Sheffer deliver a lecture on her book on C-SPAN (link), she's a history professor (specializing in German history) - 1st at Stanford, now at U C Berkeley. I now have no question about the general question of Asperger's knowledge of and indirect participation in Nazi killing of children. But she doesn't overstate the case (I probably just did - it's not very simple). But my question is simple - our article says

"Edith Sheffer, a German historian,..."

which sounds to me like she was born in Germany. I doubt it, but can't find a CV that gives her place of birth. She speaks 100% idiomatic English with an American accent. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Her c.v. does not imply German nationality at all, so I emended it to specialising in modern European history. I trust that works. Collect (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

His work was largely unnoticed during his lifetime except for a few accolades in Vienna,

Dr. A worked closely with SOS_Children's_Villages and developed programs and training to help kids with aspects of neuro-diverstiy. Such programs were established in primary schools and in 1962 I benefited greatly from them. His work was well known to doctors and many teachers. His work was at hand at the house library of my engineering course, TGM Vienna. Evidence should not be hard to find in Austrian records of the education ministry or 'Stadtschulrat'. I live in Australia now and have no contacts in 'the field'. So evidence is not at hand for me.

Ing.walter.hartmann (talk) 04:42, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Relevant source, but doesn't seem to back up any specific claims

I removed a source that was relevant to the article but didn't seem to back up any specific claims. Leaving the source here in case someone wishes to reintroduce it to a more specific paragraph:

Hippler, Kathrin; Klicpera, Christian (2003). "A Retrospective Analysis of the Clinical Case Records of 'Autistic Psychopaths' Diagnosed by Hans Asperger and His Team at the University Children's Hospital, Vienna". Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences. 358 (1430): 291–301. doi:10.1098/rstb.2002.1197. JSTOR 3558142. PMC 1693115. PMID 12639327.

– Þjarkur (talk) 20:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Asperger was not born In Vienna

Sorry, but it would be better to check Asperger's place of birth and his location in his early years of life. The article says he was born in Vienna e raised in a town "not far away" from Vienna. Elsewhere I find that he instead was born and raised in Hausbrunn, a small town 80 km away from Vienna (which in a small country such as Austria is not considered "near" to the capital). Can you please check?

This is the parish register that shows that Asperger was born in Neustiftgasse in Vienna's 7th district. There is no reason to doubt this information, both Vienna and Hausbrunn are given as place of birth in various biographies. According to the parish register both his parents were born in Hausbrunn, which is still considered to be "near" Vienna even by Austrian standards.--TempusTacet (talk) 07:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

"his uninterested classmates"?

is there an accessible source for such a ... whimsical ... adjective? --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:AD20:B600:FF9E:4E34 (talk) 00:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The quote from Silberman is given without context. Grillparzer is the national poet of Austria, so Asperger's habit of quoting his verses resembles more those Englishmen or Scots who quote Shakespeare or Robert Burns at the drop of a hat, than those schoolboys who used to recite extracts from Monty Python or Goon Show scripts. He may also have recognised in him a kindred spirit. NRPanikker (talk) 13:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Hamburger

Hi!, I tried to put into the infobox Franz Hamburger as "Influence" as I put on Hamburger's article that he influenced Asperger, but it is not allowed into the Asperger's current infobox. Can it be fixed without changing infobox? Thanks in advance and I hope to have been clear. Kindest regards. CoryGlee (talk) 15:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

This article contains a translation of Hans Asperger from fr.wikipedia.

The French counterpart of this article has a lot more information on him. I have updated the English article by translating the information from the French one. So far, I have only updated the introduction, but I intend to continue updating the article via the translated information. Tbrod063 (talk) 07:35, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Wing and Falk

'The British psychiatrist Lorna Wing and the anthropologist Dean Falk consider that Hans Asperger's Catholic convictions are incompatible with the voluntary sending of children to extermination programs.'

This opinion goes without saying. Is the intended meaning of this passage that - in the view of Wing and Falk - Asperger's Catholic beliefs would have prevented his involvement in a program of extermination of disabled or neurodivergent children?

Regards to all Notreallydavid (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I've checked the reference given for Wing only to discover that it doesn't mention her at all. I only know the anecdote described in Lorna_Wing#Hans_Asperger_controversy but I've never looked into it further. The cited piece in the Atlantic states:

But Volkmar told me in an interview that he was also concerned about the reputation question, since there was honor attached to being named in the DSM. He made a transatlantic phone call to the only person he knew who had ever met Asperger—Lorna Wing—and asked her point blank whether she knew anything about Asperger being a Nazi. Wing was shocked at the question, and, although she had only met Asperger once, for tea and conversation, she apparently felt compelled to vouch for him. She, too, did not actually have much information, but she knew him to be a religious man, and shared that with Volkmar.

Based on this, it seems that she did believe Asperger's faith would have prevented him from collaborating with the Nazis on anything cruel or unjust, thus ruling out the possibility that any rumors/accusations implying the opposite could hold merit.--TempusTacet (talk) 10:52, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

The objectively verifiable fact is that the citizens of Am Spiegelgrund's immediate surroundings, as well as the citizens of Austria, knew at the time that Am Spiegelgrund was an organization that murdered children. Under the circumstances, the defense's view is that only Hans Asperger was unaware of this.

@Khiikiat

@Traumnovelle

User:Khiikiat

User:Traumnovelle

There is no evidence that Hans Asperger knew what the Am Spiegelgrund was, but equally, to be truly objective and neutral, the fact that the Am Spiegelgrund was an institution that murdered children was known to the citizens of Austria in general, not just those around the Am Spiegelgrund area. Those who defend Hans Asperger claim that only Hans Asperger did not know this. These are objective, neutral facts.

Check out these articles.

Czech, H. Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and “race hygiene” in Nazi-era Vienna. Molecular Autism 9, 29 (2018). https://doi.org/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6

"Furthermore, knowledge of the mass murders euphemized as “euthanasia” was not limited to insiders; it was in fact widespread among the Viennese population. During the so-called “T4” killing campaign, patients’ relatives staged public protests in front of the Steinhof psychiatric hospital in Vienna. They could not prevent approximately 3200 Steinhof patients from being transported to the gas chamber at Hartheim, but they took a courageous stance against the regime’s campaign of murder.Footnote102 Rumors were so widespread that the Viennese edition of the Völkischer Beobachter—the Nazi Party’s daily newspaper—was compelled to deny the killings. The article mentioned lethal injections and even gas chambers, which shows how specific the public’s knowledge was (: 7). Anny Wödl, a Viennese nurse, had no doubt that the transfer of her son Alfred to Spiegelgrund, enforced in early 1941 despite her resolute resistance, would mean his death (: 298). Even abroad, the killings at Spiegelgrund became known. In the fall of 1941, the Royal Air Force dropped leaflets mentioning both the Steinhof hospital and Jekelius’ name in connection with the systematic murder of patients.Footnote103"

"In reality, the fact that psychiatric patients were dying in great numbers under suspicious circumstances had already become widely known among the Viennese population in September 1940, months before Herta’s transferal (and Bishop Galen’s sermon), even leading to public protests (Klee 1985, p. 208–209). In November 1940, the Völkischer Beobachter, the official newspaper of the Nazi Party had to deny rumors that patients were being killed by poisoning and in gas chambers, referencing various Viennese institutions (Schödl 1940). Falk is correct in stating that transferals of children with disabilities from the Children’s Clinic to Spiegelgrund strongly increased after Hitler’s ‘halt’ order (by June 27, the day Asperger signed Herta’s transferal, 30 patients had died at Spiegelgrund; by October 27, the date of Elisabeth’s transferal note, the number had risen to 71).

However, while this represents one potential way Asperger could have found out about Spiegelgrund’s purpose, it was certainly not the only source of information on the ‘euthanasia’ killings taking place practically before his eyes. Even if we assume that Asperger did not know the details of the ‘child euthanasia’ program at Spiegelgrund, he could not conceivably have been in the dark about the dangers faced by patients with mental disabilities at Steinhof psychiatric hospital, on the very premises of which Spiegelgrund was founded in July 1940. Spiegelgrund was not part of ‘Aktion T4’ (and therefore not affected by Hitler’s ‘halt’ order), but Asperger and his contemporaries could not be expected to have known this at the time, given the secrecy surrounding the killing operations and the fact that in Vienna one person—Erwin Jekelius—was in charge both of coordinating T4 and running Spiegelgrund. As it were, in June 1941 Asperger exposed Herta not only to the child euthanasia program at Spiegelgrund, but also to T4, which would only be suspended 2 months later.

The example of Anna Wödl, a nurse at the same General Hospital to which Asperger’s clinic belonged, illustrates how implausible it is that Asperger could have been in the dark about the dangers faced by his patients. Wödl, who had a son with a mental disability placed in an institution near Vienna, clearly recognized the threat he was under. By July 1940—almost a year before Asperger signed the transferal of Herta—she had gathered enough information to identify the Berlin official responsible for coordinating the T4 program (Herbert Linden) and to personally go see him and plead (ultimately unsuccessfully) for her son’s life (Fürstler and Malina 2003)."

Dekan Falk bestreitet nicht, dass die Menschen in der Umgebung von Am Spiegelgrund sowie Österreicher im Allgemeinen wussten, dass Am Spiegelgrund eine Kindermordanstalt war; Dekan Falk behauptet nur, dass Hans Asperger nicht wusste, was es war.

So I objectively wrote: “ The objectively verifiable fact is that the citizens of Am Spiegelgrund's immediate surroundings, as well as the citizens of  Austria, knew at the time that Am Spiegelgrund was an organization that murdered children. Under the circumstances, the defense's view is that only Hans Asperger was unaware of this.”

Where in these descriptions is there a violation of objectivity and neutrality?

Autisticattitudes (talk) 05:33, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Ernst Tatzer, Werner Maleczek, and Franz Waldhauser, the authors of an article claiming that Hans Asperger would not have known about a child killing institution called Am Spiegelgrund, violate the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.

"CONFLICT OF INTEREST

ET and FW were students and later colleagues of Hans Asperger, as previously documented,52, 53 and WM has been friends with the Asperger family for many years."

Tatzer E, Maleczek W, Waldhauser F. An assessment of what Hans Asperger knew about child euthanasia in Vienna during the Nazi occupation. Acta Paediatr. 2023; 112: 1109–1119. https://doi.org/10.1111/apa.16571

CONFLICT OF INTEREST are identified that violate Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view.

I did not violate Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Academic bias, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Autisticattitudes (talk) 05:51, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:Academic bias, Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, and Misplaced Pages:No original research.

I didn't violate any Misplaced Pages rules at all.

@Khiikiat

@Traumnovelle Autisticattitudes (talk) 05:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

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