Misplaced Pages

Talk:Frank Zappa: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 17:11, 7 April 2012 editWisdomtenacityfocus (talk | contribs)6,471 edits →Zappa Template← Previous edit Latest revision as of 03:42, 1 January 2025 edit undoTbf62 (talk | contribs)268 edits →Zappa's religious beliefs 
(406 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talkheader}}
{{ArticleHistory
{{Article history
|action1=FAC |action1=FAC
|action1date=18:21, 29 December 2005 |action1date=18:21, 29 December 2005
Line 50: Line 51:
|action9oldid=240535238 |action9oldid=240535238


|action10=FAR
|topic=Arts
|action10date=2017-07-31
|action10link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Frank Zappa/archive1
|action10result=kept
|action10oldid=793249904

|topic=
|currentstatus=FA |currentstatus=FA
|maindate=December 4, 2008 |maindate=December 4, 2008
|otd2date=2020-12-04|otd2oldid=992003092
}} }}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=FA|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Zappa, Frank|1=
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject Composers|class=FA}} {{WikiProject Biography|musician-work-group=yes|musician-priority=high}}
{{WikiProject Biography|living=no|class=FA|musician-priority=High|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Zappa, Frank}} {{WikiProject United States|importance=Low|USMusic=Yes|USMusic-importance=High|portal1-name=United States |portal1-link=Selected culture biography/19}}
{{WikiProject Rock music|class=FA|importance=Top}} {{WikiProject Frank Zappa|importance=top}}
{{WikiProject Jazz|class=FA|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Composers}}
{{WikiProject Progressive Rock| class = FA | importance = High}} {{WikiProject Guitarists}}
{{WikiProject Guitarists|class=FA}} {{WikiProject Jazz|importance=low}}
{{WP1.0|v0.7=pass|class=FA|category=Arts|importance=High}} {{WikiProject Progressive Rock|importance=high}}
{{WikiProject Record Production|importance=mid}}
{{WikiProject Rock music|importance=top}}
{{WikiProject Maryland|importance=low|Baltimore=yes|Baltimore-importance=low}}
}} }}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
{{Maintained|''']''', '']''|small=yes}}
|archiveheader = {{Aan}}

|maxarchivesize = 150K
{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
|counter = 12
|archiveprefix=Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive
|minthreadstoarchive = 1
|format= %%i
|minthreadsleft = 1
|age=168
|algo = old(365d)
|index=yes
|archive = Talk:Frank Zappa/Archive %(counter)d
|minkeepthreads=10
|maxarchsize=15000
|numberstart=1
|archivebox=yes
|box-advert=yes
}} }}


== Musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader ==
== Archive history numbering ==

Every other list of archived talk pages that I've seen goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.
Frank Zappa's goes 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6.
Appropriate! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== YouTube video capture "Frank Zappa Playing Music on a Bicycle 1963" ==

About the YouTube video capture "Frank Zappa Playing Music on a Bicycle 1963" at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9P2V0_p6vE that had been entered by a non-registered user into the infobox on the Frank Zappa page on Nov 7, 2010 - Very late last night, I saw that the entry had been made by the non-registered user. I did not have time to evaluate where it should be located on the page. My edit was intended to clean the entry up so that it would look presentable to viewers. The double brackets around "bicycle" were showing. My annotation, "minor cleanup of bicycle addition to instruments just so that reference would show properly - further attention needed" described my opinion that further attention is needed concerning the video clip. I believe that the clip belongs somewhere on the page (not where it was placed), because what Frank Zappa, at the age of 22, was saying, on a popular national TV show, about creativity is very significant. Both Frank Zappa's delivery of the message, and Steve Allen's reaction to what Frank Zappa was saying and doing are significant. Steve Allen was an accomplished musician in his own right, and his reaction, in my view, shows how something that is not within the norm can be difficult to accept by the general population. Steve Allen also displayed in his acknowledgement at the end of the clip that he understood what Frank Zappa was demonstrating. Could this video clip be seriously considered for inclusion on the Frank Zappa page, hopefully in a location that has context as opposed to being included merely as an external reference? Reference #34 (as of 11/7/10) refers to the show. Could this clip be inserted as an external video link in the Early 1960s: Studio Z section on the Frank Zappa page? ] (]) 14:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, I don't dispute any of your edits. The article mentions Zappa's bicycle playing performance, so "Bicycle" could be included in the infobox's instrument section, although it would obviously require further explanation in context. A link to the video could be worth inclusion as an external link rather than a reference, being part of Zappa's notable appearance with Steve Allen as a whole. ] (]) 14:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
:It was just a one off gimmick, so is it realy relevant? ] (]) 15:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

::It may be considered a one off gimmick, but I seriously think that a lot is being said in that sketch on a couple of different levels. Yes it is funny; the interplay between Allen and Zappa is comedic; and some might view the situation as somewhat absurd. But on another level, Zappa is displaying musical sounds that emanate from something that would not be considered a musical instrument. He is displaying creativity in a very real sense. The fact that Zappa chose to use the bicycle as a percussion, string, and wind instrument is also significant, in my opinion. Towards the end of the sketch, Zappa has the orchestra join in. If one were to place that improvised piece into a genre, one might see that little piece as a revealing snapshot of what Zappa was to further develop in later years (and then again look at the humor in this sketch, but also realize that something very serious is being said - sound familiar?). Zappa was 22 when this was filmed. The sketch shows him displaying confidence (on a nationally broadcast TV show) and a knowledge of what he is about, and where he is headed. It also shows Steve Allen as understanding that his audience would see the sketch initially only for its humor, and Allen played to that. But Allen also acknowledged that he knew what Zappa was about at the end of the sketch. In my opinion, I think that this little video clip is very revealing, and deserves a place on the Frank Zappa page, likely as an external video link in the Early 1960s: Studio Z section. ...and the bicycle could possibly be added in the infobox to his list of musical instruments if an appropriate explanation could be used to support it. My thoughts and opinions. Additional thoughts? I will try to put the external video link into form a little later if no one gets to it before I do. I'll risk a revert on this one. ] (]) 16:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

::: Note that video links are only allowed if you are certain that there is no copyrights to the clip. A link to the Steve Allen show was demanded to be taken out when the article underwent FA review. As for including "bicycle" in the infobox, I think it is unnecessary. The infobox should only name the central instruments (''without'' any explanations). Otherwise it becomes overloaded (he also played toy accordion on a German documentary; very funny and said a lot about the man, but we really have to stop somewhere). Oh, and the bicycle incident is mentioned in the article, so I am afraid I fail to see any deficiencies here. Cheers. --''']''', '']'' 23:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

::::I was looking into the copyright issue, and that's why I hadn't continued with the edit. For my knowledge, could you provide me with some insight concerning the video clip issue? Possibly on my talk page? information such as what is required concerning documentation in order to use a video clip or music video on a page? I have seen them on pages, and they can be quite explanatory. ] (]) 01:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
::::: The burden of proof lies with the editor: One has to prove that there is no copyright violation. If one cannot see any copyright notices, one cannot refer to the clip as the default is that unless proven otherwise, things are copyrighted (and fair use is not applicable here). I know several articles break the copyright rules anyway, but in a FA article one has to obey strictly to the rules. Those really interested in seeing the clip can google it by themselves; it should be easy. Cheers, --''']''', '']'' 18:11, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::::::The clip is copyrighted of course, only way to feature it within the article (and not just as a link) would be through "fair use". But this is only used in circumstances where such media is vital to the article. ] (]) 12:44, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

== Illness ==

is it wikipedia policy to omit details about one's illness/death or are there no reliable sources in zappas case? thanks --] (]) 09:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
:I don't think there is such a policy, nor do I think there are no such sources. If you have something notable —and well sourced— in mind, be ] and add it. Misplaced Pages is yours too. ] (]) 12:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
::thank you but i don't have sources about his illness. i was curious to know why it isn't mentioned in the article.--] (]) 14:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Perhaps the contributors found that the details that got mentioned (and sourced) in the section ] were sufficient. Have you read that section? ] (]) 15:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
::::i searched in this section but didn't read the details...indeed, it is sufficient. thank you.--] (]) 16:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

== Problems with using Miles biography ==

As noted by multiple reviewers, Miles' biography of Zappa can be wildly inaccurate. Please make sure the claims cited in here can be backed up by other sources and are true. For example, Tony Palmer did not try to have his name removed from ''200 Motels''. ] (]) 16:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

According to , he did, apparently:

At one point during
production, Mr. Palmer
demanded that his name
be removed from the
credits of "200 MOTELS"
out of concern for his career

Toward the end of
principal photography,
Mr. Palmer, in a fit of
peek, threatened to
erase all of the master
video tapes of the movie.

<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:Sure, but that can hardly be considered as a ] for Misplaced Pages. We need better. Book? Interview? - ] (]) 18:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

== Category: American Libertarians ==

I'm afraid I'm going to open up a whole can of worms here, but does he really belong in this category? The category page says "American people who have categorically referred to themselves as libertarians, who adhere to any form of libertarian philosophy" and while FZ clearly held a lot of beliefs that are libertarian, he also held quite a few that were not. Also as far as I can tell, he always declined to call himself a libertarian when asked about his political beliefs. (Note -- this edit was reverted while I was writing this). ] (]) 13:45, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

:No problem. Yes, I already had reverted that edit. Indeed nowhere in the article libertarianism is mentioned, so there is no place for the category. Cheers - ] (]) 14:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


Someone had turned "''singer-songwriter, musician''" into "''musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader''", which was accepted by myself and by user {{u|Justiyaya}}. This is was reverted () by user {{user|Wretchskull}} per ]. I don't think there's anything undue about the phrase ''musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader''. On the contrary, these attributes are overwhelmingly supported by the article. So I undid the undo (). Other comments welcome. - ] (]) 16:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
== Zappa Template ==


:Thanks for the ping {{u|DVdm}}, please note (for anyone joining the discussion) that there is a huge section up above saying why bandleader belongs in the lead (thank you {{u|Herostratus}}). ]]] 17:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
The Zappa template that displays all of his albums has now been split in to two sections- one for studio albums and one for live albums. This doesn't work, because many of Zappa's albums feature a mixture of studio and live tracks, which means that they cannot be classified as either studio albums or live albums. Examples of this would be "Weasels Ripped my Flesh", "Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch" and "Lather". The template should be changed back to display all of Zappa's albums together rather than split into different categories.
::Mnmn, the noted singer-songwriter Frank Zappa... I honestly feel that if we try to put him in in with like ] and ] and ] etc. we'd risk calling forth a nameless shapeless wrath that might consume the universe. I can't think of a more misleading way to characterize Zappa... Heh I'm imagining him onstage alone on a stool in a spotlight and strumming away at "Time In A Bottle"... oof. Yes sure this is an accurate image to put in the reader's mind... I suppose "Frank Zappa was a musician, composer, guitarist, and ] (a kitchen implement used to process potatoes by forcing them through a sheet of small holes)" would be a ''little'' more misleading. Sorry, this just gave me the giggles.
--] (]) 20:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


::My thought remains that "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" works fine, not broke, don't fix. (But if we've got the hood open anyway, I'd prefer "guitarist, composer, songwriter, bandleader" because he really was a virtuoso guitarist I think. However, it's fine either way, don't worry about it. (My thought process being: whatever "musician" might mean, we've already spun off songwriter, bandleader, and composer, so what's left is his instruments and singing I guess?. But didn't he have other people do a fair amount of the singing? Even when not he just wasn't noted for his singing but he was for his playing. But whatever.) ] (]) 02:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
:I agree. - ] (]) 20:22, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
:I agree with "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" ] (]) 14:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


:::"'''Composer, guitarist, bandleader'''" would be more accurate. For starters, Zappa considered himself a ''composer'' first and foremost (says so in his autobiography). He composed large symphonic works. And rock music. And jazz. And a few other things. But composition was central: everything else was to support his composition habit.
I would edit the template back to how it was... but I don't know how, that's the problem. Is editing a template complex?
--] (]) 20:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


:::Once you have "composer", ''songwriter'' is implicit in that. True, not all composers are songwriters, necessarily, but all songwriters are composers.
:The best thing would be to go the template's , and revert to by Gnuish dd. 15 jan 2012, before user {{user|Wisdomtenacityfocus}} started working on it. The technique is easy: make a {{diff||472913877|471404444|diff between now and then}}, then click the edit link on the left, write an appropriate edit summary —''explicitly'' pointing to here <nowiki>(])</nowiki>—, and hit the ''Save Page'' button. Expect some resistance though, as Wisdomtenacityfocus has put quite some work in this. So before we do that, it might be a good idea to first notify the user on their talk page and let them know about possible plans to undo this, and invite them to comment here on this article talk page. I have {{diff||473056562|472129348|taken care}} of that. Input from other contributors here would be welcome as well. - ] (]) 22:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


:::"Musician" is both over-general, and redundant. Could one possible be a composer, a guitarist, and a bandleader, (and a songwriter), and NOT be a "musician"?
* This is standardized formatting for musician biographies and templates. Pink Floyd has also released albums which mix studio and live content, but if the content is predominately live or predominately studio, it is categorized as such. Arguing that "most of his albums mix content" doesn't cut it. This is the way it's supposed to be formatted. ''Weasels Ripped My Flesh'' is predominately live. ''Lather'' is predominately studio content. ''Ship'' usually considered to be a studio album. ] (]) 02:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
:* Also, compilation albums can't be categorized with legit studio LPs. ] (]) 02:31, 25 January 2012 (UTC) :::] (]) 01:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
:::: Yes, afaic, we can leave the ''musician'' aside. I'll make the change and we can keep it. After possible further discussion here, we can revert. - ] (]) 14:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
:He was a composer first and foremost! ] (]) 06:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)


== phrasing, "uses conventions" versus "conventional" ==
I notice that someone {{diff||473283959|473229946|restored the original, long standing consensus version}}. I fully agree with that. Let's keep it this way. Deciding which album is live and which is studio, is not our job, and there is no policy about standardized formatting for musician templates that says that it should be. - ] (]) 08:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
*No one's deciding which albums are studio or live, it's stated outright by the sources. And the formatting '''is''' standardized. ] (]) 19:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


@], I asked you to please discuss your thoughts here before continuing to make changes. You're misunderstanding my point: Zappa did use existing conventions in unconventional ways. An artist can be unconventional in the way they use conventions. He wrote down his thoughts with (mostly) conventional music notation, for example.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>I am worried that your particular phraseology is overly narrow, and may impact the meaning of the article in a way that's neither neutral nor represented by sources.<span id="Remsense:1704440362983:TalkFTTCLNFrank_Zappa" class="FTTCmt"> ]] 07:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)</span>
To see how albums that mix live and studio content should be handled, see ] for example. ] (]) 23:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


:'''Remarks''':
:* I notice that you {{diff||473383549|473283959|reverted without comment}}. That gets close to edit warring. Be careful. Also have a look at ], which explains how things are supposed to be handled here.
:* {{diff||next|473383549|This edit}} ("''doubling Ship, as it's half live, half studio''") lists an album twice, both as studio and as live, which is (at least i.m.o.) downright silly. Note that the lead of ] says that it is "a studio and live album". It does not say that it is a "a studio album" and also "a live album". There are other albums like that, so that would need another category: ''studio and live albums'' — and needless to say, it would contain just about ''all'' Zappa albums. This is precisely the reason why the split was not made before. The contributors who created and maintained the template knew what they were doing.<p>I suggest that you undo that edit, unless you find one source that says that Ship is "a studio album and also a live album". If it is indeed a "a studio and live album", it does not belong in either of the current categories.
:I also suggest we revert to the original version. Can we have some input from other contributors here? - ] (]) 08:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


== Subpage time? ==
* That's a ludicrous statement to claim that the majority of Zappa's albums combine studio and live content. Look at the ] article, and the ]. ] is listed twice because it contains half studio, half live content. There's ''never'' been any complaint. The Pink Floyd articles, discography and template are also better organized than Zappa's. That should point to something, doesn't it? ''Ship'' qualifies as a studio/live album in the same way that ''Ummagumma'' is both a studio and a live album. That is no argument, to claim that these articles should be mixed up and disorganized because of a false notion that minor live content on some of the studio albums is significant enough to dismiss the importance of the fact that Zappa ''did'' release straight up live albums, like ''Sheik Yerbouti'' (which is still such, despite the overdubs) and ''Tinseltown Rebellion'' because some people believe, personally, "it's all the same", when it's contradicted by actual guidelines and sources. --] (]) 15:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
{{hat|Ban evasion by ], using Washington state IPs.}}
This article is getting very long, especially for a featured article. It was just a hair under 11k words upon FAR in 2017, and is now over my personal pigheaded bright line of 12k where I put my foot down and say "I don't care what the article is about, it's obviously too long". It seems to me that a lot of the detail regarding his work is notable enough to be viable as subpages—cf. ], ]. Thoughts? ]] 20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)


YES! Finally! This article is way too long. It still has parts that are poorly written, inaccurate, repetitive and or overly verbose. It can be tightened up. There is still a lot of trivial and or unsourced information that should be removed. Trivial info can be moved to other articles or deleted entirely.] (]) 19:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
:This is not about Pink Floyd. It is about Zappa. - ] (]) 16:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
::Hyperbole. The subject of the articles being different doesn't change the guidelines. The point being, Pink Floyd have quality album articles, navigational templates, etc. You can't make it through the list of albums if it's all mixed together. It's cleaner to look at if studio and live albums are separated. And don't say that many of Zappa's albums mix live and studio content, because there's a clear distinction between an album like ''Joe's Garage'', which is a studio album that has ''some'' live content, and ''Sheik Yerbouti'', which is a live album, despite the overdubs (which, I have to point out, did not make several other '70s live rock albums studio releases despite containing overdubs). --] (]) 21:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


:You've been doing a lot of work on it, do you have suggestions for what could be split out first? ]] 20:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
:::You think "it's cleaner to look at if studio and live albums are separated". I don't. The few other contributors ({{user|Sexually Aroused Gas Mask}}, {{user|113.117.201.52}}, {{user|Aerosmith366}}) who have contributed don't either. Listing ''Ship'' as a live album ''and'' as a studio album is i.m.o. downright silly, and in this case even ]. - ] (]) 11:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
::::No, it's not. Just look at the way the ] albums are categorized. And clearly, to most people, it's cleaner for the live and studio albums to be separated, because the majority of templates have this formatting. ] (]) 21:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::Paraboloid. This is not about Pink Floyd. It is about Zappa. - ] (]) 21:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::Do you think repeating the same thing over and over again even though it's not a valid point and it doesn't change standards will state your case? --] (]) 01:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::No, it's just that what happens in some article elsewhere, should have no effect on what happens ''here''. There is no policy about how albums should be categorised, so the way they are categorized here is purely a matter of ''local consensus'', and so far, by pushing your point of view, you are working ''against consensus'' — and please note that ]. - ] (]) 08:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::::I'm not working against consensus, because there is no consensus. --] (]) 20:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::You are going against a long standing (de-facto consensus) version of the template. Three editors expressed objections. You might have a look at ]: you made a bold (B) {{diff||473229946|471404444|series of edits}} to the template. An editor reverted (R) your action ({{diff||473283465|473229946|here}} and {{diff||next|473283465|here}}) with a proper edit summary. The idea then is that you do '''not revert''' again —as you did {{diff||next|473283959|here without any comment}}—, but instead come the talk page to discuss (D) and try to convince the rest of us. Failing that, the article stays the way it was -- see ]: {{xt2|''If you make a change which is good-faith reverted, do not simply reinstate your edit - leave the ] up.'' If there is a dispute, '''the ] reigns until a ] is established to make a change'''. Instead of engaging in an ], propose your reverted change on the article's talk page or pursue other ].}} In other words, if, indeed like you claim, there is no consensus, then the situation should stay the way it was before you started working on it. Do you understand that you are working against this, and that the burden of convincing is upon you? - ] (]) 22:03, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::No, you are wrong, I am right. The formatting was only good after I changed it. The original formatting was difficult to look at. This is a very poor way of thanking me for improving the template. --] (]) 07:15, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


Could you explain what you mean by "split out"? Do you mean making new articles?
{{unindent}}WIkipedia is not about being right. It is about working together. What ends up in an article does not depend on whether someone is right or wrong. It depends on how the editors work together. You find the original formatting difficult to look at. We don't. That is just your problem. If no compromise is possible, then we go back to the original — see the policy at ], second bullet: {{xt2|* In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article.}} That is the policy, and it is unambiguous. If you insist on working against that and still want to push your view, you have some tools at your disposal — see ] and, in general, ]. - ] (]) 09:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


One thing that definitely needs to go is just about any quote about Zappa's music from Robert Christgau. He clearly is highly biased and has little or no understanding of FZ's music. He is one of those people who is responsible for spreading a lot of false impressions. He described Bongo Fury as "sentimental", which may the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say about FZ's music. The amount of sentimental FZ music is at or near zero. Kelly Fisher Lowe isn't exactly a widely recognized music expert as Christgau is (ha ha), but he is a musician who understands FZ's music. I would like to find other writers to quote who are similar to Kelly but more widely recognized.] (]) 20:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
By the way, {{diff||474918537|474710471|this recent revert}} (undoing two separate edits {{diff||prev|474710389}} and {{diff||next|474710389}}) is problematic for two reasons. First, it reverts a lot more than what the edit summary suggests. Second, note that, for instance, Ben Watson writes in his ''Negative dialectics'': "''Weasels was a collage of the Mothers in concert and in studios from all over...''". So there clearly are sources that do not agree with your take on the matter. You see the problem here? - ] (]) 10:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


:Yes—see ] into subpages, like ] is from ]. ]] 22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
* Again, there is no consensus. Repeatedly stating such does not make it true. Sources identify ''Weasels'' as a live album on the basis that ''Burnt Weeny Sandwich'' was primarily studio with live elements and consisting largely of chamber music, while ''Weasels'' largely consists of rock songs and was largely recorded live. Thus, ''Burnt Weeny'' is a studio album, and ''Weasels'' is a live album. --] (]) 22:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
{{hab}}


=="Greek and Arab descent"==
::Again, the policy as stated in ], second bullet, says: {{xt2|* In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article.}} So we go back to the original version. Repeatedly stating your preference does not make a Misplaced Pages policy go away. - ] (]) 10:04, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
{{hat|Ban evasion by ], using Washington state IPs.}}
I want to thank 93.66.85.208 for once again removing the reference to "Greek and Arab descent". FZ's father was born in Sicily to a family of Sicilian descent. It is really very misleading to say that FZ was of "Greek and Arab descent". Nearly all Sicilians actually have some level of "Greek and Arab descent", especially going back 2,000 years or more. They also have a lot of other influences that were never mentioned in the article. See the article on Sicilians. They have had their own language and culture for a very long time. When FZ said he had "Greek and Arab descent" he was merely describing most Sicilians in general, not himself or his family in particular. The people of Rome today are radically different, ethnically, linguistically and culturally that the ancient Romans. Same difference. Please stop re-adding "Greek and Arab descent" back into the article.] (]) 20:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


* I think it's really silly that we're arguing about a ''template''. Imagine if a real issue came up.--] (]) 04:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC) : I have reverted the removal again. That content is explicitly and perfectly sourced in the article. - ] (]) 21:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


::Please explain "content is explicitly and perfectly sourced" in contrast to evidence to the contrary in the Misplaced Pages article on Sicilians.
::As the template is used in quite a number of articles, including in this FA, I don't think it is silly to base oneself on basic policies to restore the original overview, for which the following rationale:
:::*Zappa's work is very hard to categorize and most albums —on which many individual tracks— contain bits of live and studio work. Sources generally fail to agree about whether an album is either ''Live, with studio elements'', or ''Studio, with live elements'', resulting in at least one album having to be listed twice — as a studio album ''and'' as a live album, {{diff||prev|473420095|"''as it's half live, half studio.''"}}
:::*The outspoken preference of four (well, at least three) other editors to keep the long standing original version (({{user|Sexually Aroused Gas Mask}}, {{user|113.117.201.52}}, {{user|Aerosmith366}}) and {{user|DVdm}}, combinded with the edit history of the template.
:::*The policy ]: ''No consensus for change results in status quo.''
::You obviously have put quite some work in this and in the individual album articles, and that work is appreciated, but on the template it really goes against Zappa's "incategorizability", and against consensus, so let's try to make the albums of ] match the overview article ] as much as possible, while avoiding undue categorization, which is probably bound to remain controversial. I.m.o. the thing to do, is to restore to , and perhaps moving the items currently under ''Other releases'' into the handful of undisputable ''decade-of-release''-related subdivisions of the ''Albums'' division. - ] (]) 20:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
:::Alternatively, we could fix the discography page. ] (]) 01:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
::::I don't think that is a good idea — see ]. I notice that you {{diff||476220682|470996132|went ahead}}, as if nothing was said here. - ] (]) 11:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::I am ''NOT'' disrupting Misplaced Pages. I am improving Misplaced Pages. You don't seem to understand the difference. This is standard formatting to separate studio, live, compilation and box set albums. --] (]) 23:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::Indeed, you are not disrupting at this moment. This page is watchlisted by 312 editors. Only 3 or 4 editors have commented on and objected to your edits, and luckily nobody seems interested in edit-warring over this. Personally, I'm not even interested in these (—in this case— i.m.o. silly) categories, but be aware of the fact that some editors object to your point of view. Anyway, if putting things in boxes makes you happy, then by all means feel free to continue :-) ] (]) 09:32, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


::It's fine to quote FZ in context but he was definitely not an expert on Sicilian history. The previous editor 93.66.85.208 has previously edited articles on Italian culture and may have actually had a good reason for editing the article. I don't claim to be an expert but I do read history. Perhaps DVdm can learn something from an Italian or someone who is an expert.
'''Update'''. I just noticed {{diff||prev|478507338|this revert}} by anon {{user|68.0.118.130}} to ]. Of course I totally agree, and left an invitation on anon talk page to join this discussion. <small>Off for the weekend now.</small> - ] (]) 23:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
68.0.118.130
* It was not a "mess" as I had edited. It ''was'' a mess, until I fixed it. ''My'' edit made it not be a mess. And then anon made it a mess again. --] (]) 00:01, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


::: Read the cited source: it says "'''My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French.'''". - Don't revert again. - ] (]) 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
::That is ''two additional'' users who prefer the original version: {{diff||478507338|478102517|68.0.118.130}} and {{diff||prev|478531247|Friginator}}. You reverted twice ({{diff||next|478516580}} and {{diff||next|478516580}}), once referring to vandalism, which was clearly not the case. Together with {{diff||473383549|473283959|this}}, you now have reverted 3 times. That could be interpreted as disruptive editing: see ]. - ] (]) 11:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
::: And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent. The article says that "'''his father''', whose name was anglicized to Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from ], near ] on the Italian island of ], and '''was of Greek and Arab descent'''. - ] (]) 23:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
::: That's not how edit warring works. What I reverted was, indeed vandalism, as it disrupted the correct recommended formatting. --] (]) 20:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
::: This is what the cited source says: {{xt|"My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French. My mother's mother was French and Sicilian, and her Dad was Italian (from Naples). She was first generation. The Greek-Arab side is from my Dad. He was born in a Sicilian village called Partinico, and came over on one of the immigrant boats when he was a kid."}} - ] (]) 23:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


:::: Someone is not listening and not talking to Sicilians. You have ignored the fact that the cited source is not an expert on Sicilian history or ancestry. If you are unable to support your argument it is not valid. I will agree to change it to say something like "Zappa emphasized the Greek and Arabic aspects of his Sicilian ancestry." The problem is that he left out the many other parts of his Sicilian ancestry as explained in the article about Sicilians which you have not read.] (]) 00:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
::::If you really think that {{diff||478507338|478102517|this is vandalism,}} then I can only advise you to have a ''very'' careful look at ] and, while at it, at ]. - ] (]) 21:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


:::: "And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent."
Okay, the borderline edit warring and constant reverting of both the template and the discography page is not jut disruptive, it also leads to inconsistencies and plain incorrect information. Right now, the template and the discography page follow different formats. The discography page was reverted to a partially incorrect version (wrong release date for Civilization Phaze III; Illegal, Immoral and Fattening mentioned as a cover album; the infobox at the top lists incorrect numbers). Something has to be done.


:::: This is false. It makes no sense unless you are trying to argue that FZ was not the son of his father. Please stop lying about what is in the article. Here is the quote from the article. Maybe you didn't read it: Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent.
As far as I'm informed, no source on the Zappa discography makes a clear distinction between studio and live albums, they list them all together. The reason for this is simple: A clear distinction cannot be made because Zappa freely mixed live performances with studio performances, applied overdubs etc. Any attempt to classify albums like Weasels Ripped My Flesh, Drowning Witch, Them Or Us or Läther would constitute original research. A logical classification is certainly ''possible'', but not ''verified'' by any other sources. It's not Misplaced Pages to invent a classification system out of nowhere.


::::: <small>Please indent your talk page messages as outlined in ] and ] — See ]. Thanks.</small>
So instead of distinguishing between studio albums, live albums and compilations, we should distinguish between "official" albums (as listed on zappa.com) and "non-official" (but authorized) albums, i.e. the way it was´before this whole argument. What does bug me about this is the infobox on the discography page, which still distinguishes between studio, live and compilations. I don't know how that template works, but is there any way to set it up differently? That should solve all remaining problems. --] (]) 09:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
::::: Yes, the descent is indeed in the lead. I was looking at the version before I undid the removal. In the original, long standing version, there is a note explaining it. And of course, if your father is of some descent, you obviously are as well. There really is no problem here. If you don't agree, there's always ]. - ] (]) 08:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
{{hab}}


== Just peachy-keen ==
::First of all, I have to agree with the above statement 100%. I've just reworked the template into something that's hopefully more manageable and easier to navigate. Secondly, shouldn't this entire discussion be on the ] instead of here? ] (]) 21:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
:::I had decided to open a thread here, as this page has more than 300 watchers, whereas the template has less than 30 watchers, probably just a handfull.<p>Good job. ] (]) 13:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
:An issue with the template is that it does not include songs unless they are singles, yet there are articles for album only songs such as ] and others. What to do? ] (]) 21:35, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
::I just added a section of the template that links to "Other Compositions." Hopefully that'll clear it up. The section still needs work, but they've got a place to go. ] (]) 22:04, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


"Zappa died from prostate cancer on December 4, 1993, at his home with his wife and children by his side."
Okay, once again the template has been reverted to it's arbirarily-grouped state without any discussion. I've restored it to the version that is backed both by the official discography and what seems to be consensus. Does anyone have any thoughts to add on how to stop this? I'm '''''NOT''''' interested in turning this into an edit war, so regardless of anyone's personal opinions, can we discuss this? Obviously it's already been discussed into the ground, but if there are any arguments that haven't been put forth, they still should be heard. ] (]) 23:54, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Just one big happy, eh? Maybe you should add a little info from Moon Zappa's new memoir. ] (]) 02:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)


== Financial Status at Death ==
:As user {{user|Wisdomtenacityfocus}} seems to ignore consensus, I have {{diff||484976963|481225015|put a warning}} at ]. - ] (]) 10:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
::Wrong. YOU are ignoring consensus. Stop making the template look worse by mixing up live, studio, compilation and box set albums. Look at ]. There's a clear distinction between these releases. Stop changing against formatting rules. Changing the organization against the rules downgrades the quality of the discography list and template. --] (]) 01:00, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
:::Actually, ], to me it looks like the consensus points the other way. You mention "formatting rules", yet there aren't any in this case. If I'm mistaken about these "rules", you're welcome to cite them as they appear on their respective pages. And I'd also like to point out that you just altered the discography page (which ''also'' appears to have been against consensus) in a way that doesn't even match the template the way you yourself organized it. Not to mention that the discography article, unlike the template, needs no real reorganizing. It's all on Zappa's official discography, so making a bunch of different sections doesn't make sense. And please, please, please, for the love of god, can we keep this on the talk page? ] (]) 02:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
:::: User {{user|Wisdomtenacityfocus}} is {{diff||485121043|485116410|reported for edit warring}} at . - ] (]) 07:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


I saw an interview with Moon that her father died deeply in debt. I did not see a mention of that in the article. Should a note on that be added to the article?
:::: ], this is ludicrous. You can't claim that a discography page "needs no real organizing". Look at ]. There's a clear quality improvement compared to DVdm's lowering of the quality in this particular discography. Also, look at many different artist and band templates. Do you really think bunching compilations, live albums and official releases together looks better than templates for other artists which are correctly formatted? ] has more releases than Zappa, and ] is more organized. No one can possibly claim that Zappa's discography is too large to not make a distinction between clearly categorized releases, or that the studio and live content is mixed so that there's no distinction, or that there are no live albums. There clearly is a distinction, so put the content back to where it was when I improved it and stop enabling DVdm's vandalism. --] (]) 19:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


] (]) 08:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
::::: I don't think you understand what vandalism is. Or ownership, for that matter. No one is claiming to own the article, and no one is vandalizing it. ] (]) 19:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


== Bike playing career ==
:::::: You two ignore sources, album and style guidelines I presented. That's one thing, but removing large chunks of articles and cluttering the formatting to an unreadable state, as you two have done, is vandalism. --] (]) 17:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


I have located an old blog post about his appearance on the Steve Allen show. https://www.afka.net/Articles/2002-00_Jerry_Hopkins.htm I think it might deserve a spot on here. ] (]) 03:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
=== Ownership of articles ===


:A better source would be needed, as blogs aren't generally ], and material not mentioned in reliable sources shouldn't be in the article. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 04:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
DVdm, please see ]. --] (]) 19:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
:DVdm isn't claiming ownership. Neither are any of the people who disagree with you. Citing that policy is irrelevant to this discussion. ] (]) 19:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC) ::there is a video(s) on Youtube. ] (]) 00:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
::https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/frank-zappa-plays-the-bicycle-steve-allen-show-1963/ ] (]) 01:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
:I don't claim any ownership of anything. On the contrary, I already said that "''Personally, I'm not even interested in these (—in this case— i.m.o. silly) categories.''" ({{diff||476619509|476541002}}). - ] (]) 20:02, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
:Also note that I have never reverted your edits on this matter. I tried to ''discuss'' your edits vis-a-vis the other editors' views. - ] (]) 20:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


== Infobox photo needs to be changed ==
*What you claim and what you do are two very different things. --] (]) 17:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


] This photo is color and objectively better than the infobox photo currently used. It is higher quality, and it was restored by me this morning. ] (]) 21:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
=== DRN case ===
:I have no problem with the current image. - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">] <small>(])</small></span> 22:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
A case about this matter was opened at ]. See and . - ] (]) 15:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
::You just put that on literally every single post I made, probably without looking at a single one of the images. First of all, why isn't color better. The last image is lower quality, this is objctively better ] (]) 00:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
:::{{re|Wcamp9}} I disagree with all your infobox image proposals, regardless of how I phrase it. - <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">] <small>(])</small></span> 14:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
::::I disagree with your opinions too, but they are yours so I do not care anymore ] (]) 14:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
: Why does it "need" to be changed? That is a very strong statement; is there something horribly, horribly wrong with it? I find the current one is better than the one you proposed. ] (]) 05:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
::Well, I guess it doesn't "need" to be changed, but it is a higher quality image, with more facial details being shown in a color image ] (]) 15:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
:::I think the one already there is better. ] (]) 17:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)


== ] == == Steve Allen Show-Bike music ==


Anyone want to give this a going over? It is a Good Article nomination. I suck at doing the citation templates. --] (]) 21:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC) He said it would be used as soundtrack in film starring Tim Curry, name?? ] (]) 07:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)


:This would not be mentioned in an encyclopedia biography with an iota of self restraint. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 07:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
* ] needs some touch-ups, too. --] (]) 02:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:42, 1 January 2025

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Frank Zappa article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 12 months 
Featured articleFrank Zappa is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 4, 2008.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 29, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 12, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
November 28, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 21, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
May 5, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
January 7, 2008Good article nomineeListed
August 12, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 11, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
September 24, 2008Featured article candidatePromoted
July 31, 2017Featured article reviewKept
On this day... A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 4, 2020.
Current status: Featured article
This  level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconBiography: Musicians
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as High-importance).
WikiProject iconUnited States: Music Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject American music (assessed as High-importance).
Note icon
This article has been selected for use on the United States portal.
WikiProject iconFrank Zappa (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Frank Zappa, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Frank ZappaWikipedia:WikiProject Frank ZappaTemplate:WikiProject Frank ZappaFrank Zappa
WikiProject iconComposers
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the WikiProject Composers, a group of editors writing and developing biographical articles about composers of all eras and styles. The project discussion page is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!ComposersWikipedia:WikiProject ComposersTemplate:WikiProject ComposersComposers
WikiProject iconGuitarists
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Guitarists, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Guitarists on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GuitaristsWikipedia:WikiProject GuitaristsTemplate:WikiProject Guitaristsguitarist
WikiProject iconJazz Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Jazz, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of jazz on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JazzWikipedia:WikiProject JazzTemplate:WikiProject JazzJazz
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconProgressive Rock High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Progressive Rock, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Progressive rock on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Progressive RockWikipedia:WikiProject Progressive RockTemplate:WikiProject Progressive RockProgressive rock
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconRecord Production Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Record Production; a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's documentation of Record Production articles. Questions or comments related to record production and related articles are welcome at the project's talk page. Anyone interested may join the project: add your name to the list of project members!Record ProductionWikipedia:WikiProject Record ProductionTemplate:WikiProject Record ProductionRecord Production
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconRock music Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Rock music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rock music on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Rock musicWikipedia:WikiProject Rock musicTemplate:WikiProject Rock musicRock music
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMaryland: Baltimore Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Maryland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Maryland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MarylandWikipedia:WikiProject MarylandTemplate:WikiProject MarylandMaryland
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Baltimore Task Force (assessed as Low-importance).

Musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader

Someone had turned "singer-songwriter, musician" into "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader", which was accepted by myself and by user Justiyaya. This is was reverted () by user Wretchskull (talk · contribs) per wp:UNDUE. I don't think there's anything undue about the phrase musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader. On the contrary, these attributes are overwhelmingly supported by the article. So I undid the undo (). Other comments welcome. - DVdm (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping DVdm, please note (for anyone joining the discussion) that there is a huge section up above saying why bandleader belongs in the lead (thank you Herostratus). Justiyaya 17:14, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Mnmn, the noted singer-songwriter Frank Zappa... I honestly feel that if we try to put him in in with like Lobo (musician) and Neil Diamond and Christopher Cross etc. we'd risk calling forth a nameless shapeless wrath that might consume the universe. I can't think of a more misleading way to characterize Zappa... Heh I'm imagining him onstage alone on a stool in a spotlight and strumming away at "Time In A Bottle"... oof. Yes sure this is an accurate image to put in the reader's mind... I suppose "Frank Zappa was a musician, composer, guitarist, and potato ricer (a kitchen implement used to process potatoes by forcing them through a sheet of small holes)" would be a little more misleading. Sorry, this just gave me the giggles.
My thought remains that "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" works fine, not broke, don't fix. (But if we've got the hood open anyway, I'd prefer "guitarist, composer, songwriter, bandleader" because he really was a virtuoso guitarist I think. However, it's fine either way, don't worry about it. (My thought process being: whatever "musician" might mean, we've already spun off songwriter, bandleader, and composer, so what's left is his instruments and singing I guess?. But didn't he have other people do a fair amount of the singing? Even when not he just wasn't noted for his singing but he was for his playing. But whatever.) Herostratus (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
I agree with "musician, composer, songwriter, bandleader" Dr.bobbs (talk) 14:54, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
"Composer, guitarist, bandleader" would be more accurate. For starters, Zappa considered himself a composer first and foremost (says so in his autobiography). He composed large symphonic works. And rock music. And jazz. And a few other things. But composition was central: everything else was to support his composition habit.
Once you have "composer", songwriter is implicit in that. True, not all composers are songwriters, necessarily, but all songwriters are composers.
"Musician" is both over-general, and redundant. Could one possible be a composer, a guitarist, and a bandleader, (and a songwriter), and NOT be a "musician"?
74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:29, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, afaic, we can leave the musician aside. I'll make the change and we can keep it. After possible further discussion here, we can revert. - DVdm (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
He was a composer first and foremost! 2A00:23C6:CC8B:9601:6176:3FA9:76CE:1C0C (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

phrasing, "uses conventions" versus "conventional"

@24.143.103.204, I asked you to please discuss your thoughts here before continuing to make changes. You're misunderstanding my point: Zappa did use existing conventions in unconventional ways. An artist can be unconventional in the way they use conventions. He wrote down his thoughts with (mostly) conventional music notation, for example.
I am worried that your particular phraseology is overly narrow, and may impact the meaning of the article in a way that's neither neutral nor represented by sources. Remsense留 07:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


Subpage time?

Ban evasion by User:Sugar Bear, using Washington state IPs.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This article is getting very long, especially for a featured article. It was just a hair under 11k words upon FAR in 2017, and is now over my personal pigheaded bright line of 12k where I put my foot down and say "I don't care what the article is about, it's obviously too long". It seems to me that a lot of the detail regarding his work is notable enough to be viable as subpages—cf. Beethoven's musical style, Beethoven's compositional method. Thoughts? Remsense诉 20:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

YES! Finally! This article is way too long. It still has parts that are poorly written, inaccurate, repetitive and or overly verbose. It can be tightened up. There is still a lot of trivial and or unsourced information that should be removed. Trivial info can be moved to other articles or deleted entirely.24.143.118.36 (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

You've been doing a lot of work on it, do you have suggestions for what could be split out first? Remsense诉 20:05, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean by "split out"? Do you mean making new articles?

One thing that definitely needs to go is just about any quote about Zappa's music from Robert Christgau. He clearly is highly biased and has little or no understanding of FZ's music. He is one of those people who is responsible for spreading a lot of false impressions. He described Bongo Fury as "sentimental", which may the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say about FZ's music. The amount of sentimental FZ music is at or near zero. Kelly Fisher Lowe isn't exactly a widely recognized music expert as Christgau is (ha ha), but he is a musician who understands FZ's music. I would like to find other writers to quote who are similar to Kelly but more widely recognized.24.143.118.36 (talk) 20:31, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes—see WP:SPLIT into subpages, like History of music is from Music. Remsense诉 22:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

"Greek and Arab descent"

Ban evasion by User:Sugar Bear, using Washington state IPs.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I want to thank 93.66.85.208 for once again removing the reference to "Greek and Arab descent". FZ's father was born in Sicily to a family of Sicilian descent. It is really very misleading to say that FZ was of "Greek and Arab descent". Nearly all Sicilians actually have some level of "Greek and Arab descent", especially going back 2,000 years or more. They also have a lot of other influences that were never mentioned in the article. See the article on Sicilians. They have had their own language and culture for a very long time. When FZ said he had "Greek and Arab descent" he was merely describing most Sicilians in general, not himself or his family in particular. The people of Rome today are radically different, ethnically, linguistically and culturally that the ancient Romans. Same difference. Please stop re-adding "Greek and Arab descent" back into the article.24.143.109.40 (talk) 20:35, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted the removal again. That content is explicitly and perfectly sourced in the article. - DVdm (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Please explain "content is explicitly and perfectly sourced" in contrast to evidence to the contrary in the Misplaced Pages article on Sicilians.
It's fine to quote FZ in context but he was definitely not an expert on Sicilian history. The previous editor 93.66.85.208 has previously edited articles on Italian culture and may have actually had a good reason for editing the article. I don't claim to be an expert but I do read history. Perhaps DVdm can learn something from an Italian or someone who is an expert.
Read the cited source: it says "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French.". - Don't revert again. - DVdm (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent. The article says that "his father, whose name was anglicized to Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent. - DVdm (talk) 23:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
This is what the cited source says: "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French. My mother's mother was French and Sicilian, and her Dad was Italian (from Naples). She was first generation. The Greek-Arab side is from my Dad. He was born in a Sicilian village called Partinico, and came over on one of the immigrant boats when he was a kid." - DVdm (talk) 23:14, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Someone is not listening and not talking to Sicilians. You have ignored the fact that the cited source is not an expert on Sicilian history or ancestry. If you are unable to support your argument it is not valid. I will agree to change it to say something like "Zappa emphasized the Greek and Arabic aspects of his Sicilian ancestry." The problem is that he left out the many other parts of his Sicilian ancestry as explained in the article about Sicilians which you have not read.24.143.109.40 (talk) 00:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
"And by the way, the article does not even say that FZ was of Greek and Arab descent."
This is false. It makes no sense unless you are trying to argue that FZ was not the son of his father. Please stop lying about what is in the article. Here is the quote from the article. Maybe you didn't read it: Francis Vincent Zappa, was an immigrant from Partinico, near Palermo on the Italian island of Sicily, and was of Greek and Arab descent.
Please indent your talk page messages as outlined in wp:THREAD and wp:INDENT — See Help:Using talk pages. Thanks.
Yes, the descent is indeed in the lead. I was looking at the version before I undid the removal. In the original, long standing version, there is a note explaining it. And of course, if your father is of some descent, you obviously are as well. There really is no problem here. If you don't agree, there's always wp:DR. - DVdm (talk) 08:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Just peachy-keen

"Zappa died from prostate cancer on December 4, 1993, at his home with his wife and children by his side." Just one big happy, eh? Maybe you should add a little info from Moon Zappa's new memoir. 2600:1012:A023:8AD6:2163:1DA:7D4C:C88F (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Financial Status at Death

I saw an interview with Moon that her father died deeply in debt. I did not see a mention of that in the article. Should a note on that be added to the article?

Seki1949 (talk) 08:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Bike playing career

I have located an old blog post about his appearance on the Steve Allen show. https://www.afka.net/Articles/2002-00_Jerry_Hopkins.htm I think it might deserve a spot on here. Twineeea (talk) 03:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

A better source would be needed, as blogs aren't generally WP:reliable sources, and material not mentioned in reliable sources shouldn't be in the article. Remsense ‥ 论 04:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
there is a video(s) on Youtube. Twineeea (talk) 00:56, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/frank-zappa-plays-the-bicycle-steve-allen-show-1963/ Twineeea (talk) 01:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Infobox photo needs to be changed

This photo is color and objectively better than the infobox photo currently used. It is higher quality, and it was restored by me this morning. Wcamp9 (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with the current image. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
You just put that on literally every single post I made, probably without looking at a single one of the images. First of all, why isn't color better. The last image is lower quality, this is objctively better Wcamp9 (talk) 00:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
@Wcamp9: I disagree with all your infobox image proposals, regardless of how I phrase it. - FlightTime (open channel) 14:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with your opinions too, but they are yours so I do not care anymore Wcamp9 (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
Why does it "need" to be changed? That is a very strong statement; is there something horribly, horribly wrong with it? I find the current one is better than the one you proposed. Mathglot (talk) 05:42, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
Well, I guess it doesn't "need" to be changed, but it is a higher quality image, with more facial details being shown in a color image Wcamp9 (talk) 15:51, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I think the one already there is better. Twineeea (talk) 17:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Steve Allen Show-Bike music

He said it would be used as soundtrack in film starring Tim Curry, name?? 166.181.88.125 (talk) 07:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

This would not be mentioned in an encyclopedia biography with an iota of self restraint. Remsense ‥ 论 07:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories: