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Revision as of 19:30, 17 April 2006 editASchmoo (talk | contribs)215 edits Suggestion for portal and project name: new comment← Previous edit Latest revision as of 08:30, 10 October 2024 edit undoChiswick Chap (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers296,631 edits Maria Skibniewska: r 
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==Article alerts==
#''']]]]''' &ndash; Random jobs here and there...Currently focusing on improving character articles from '']'', as well as M-E WikiProject's Standards page. 21:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The following list is updated daily by a bot. For manual entries, add a thread as usual at the bottom of this page.
#]- I'm just working on random articles at this point, but I'm going to clean up ]'s article soon.
#] 22:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC) - Watching recent changes for vandalism/errors/POV and planning to work on filling out lists more.
#] 16:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC) battling grammar orcs and spelling trolls in the lower anduin
#] 09:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Trying to find the time to work on Tolkien-related categories.
#] 19:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC) New and looking to help out. I'l try to list some articles I think are A status.
#] 04:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC) is planning on copyeditting.


{{Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Middle-earth/Article alerts}}
===Poll===
<!-- ] 05:39, 13 August 2030 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1912829949}}
There has been a proposal to rename this WikiProject (which includes the Portal) as either '''Tolkien WikiProject''' or '''Tolkien and Middle-earth WikiProject'''. As a participant, please vote and add your opinion to the respective sections.


== ] ==
'''Tolkien Wikiproject'''
#Second choice. --] 16:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
#First choice. ] 19:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
#Second choice. ] 05:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
#First choice - or conditional second choice, as discussed in my vote for 'Middle-earth Wikiproject'. ] 15:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


New article you may enjoy - translated b/c of my suggestion. A Polish translator of Tolkien works. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 07:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
'''Tolkien and Middle-earth Wikiproject'''
#Third choice. --] 16:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
#Third choice. ] 19:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
#Third choice. ] 05:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
#Third choice. ] 15:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


:@] Close to a GA level, perhaps? I could help a bit with Polish sources or such if you'd like to work on that. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
'''Middle-earth Wikiproject'''
::I think it's splendid: good work! But it's more like yours, you should take it to GAN, not me – all you have to do is to work in some of the Polish sources as it's already of a decent standard. In any case, as you can see above, my GAN queue stretches back six months or more, and in fact I'm successively dropping Middle-earth GANs as I work biological topics up to GA. Who knows, I might even review the article! All the best, ] (]) 08:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
#First choice. --] 16:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
#Second choice. ] 19:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
#First choice. ] 05:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
#Second choice - or conditional first choice, if it is made clear that the focus is not exclusively Middle-earth, and there was a "Tolkien" or "Other Tolkien subjects" area at ]. ] 15:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
#First Choice - I agree with Charcharoth on the "Tolkien area" --] 16:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
'''Other''' ''(Please list preference)''
#

==Issues==
===] cooperation===
The formal message:

Hello. I'm a member of the ], which is looking to identify quality articles in Misplaced Pages for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing articles using ], and we are are asking for your help. As you are most aware of the issues surrounding your focus area, we are wondering if you could provide us with a list of the articles that fall within the scope of your WikiProject, and that are either ], ], B-class, or ], with no POV or copyright problems. Do you have any recommendations? If you do, please post your suggestions at the listing of ], and if you have any questions, ask me in the ] or directly in my ]. Thanks a lot!

The informal message:

As a member of the project, I can contact them myself, but I think that we should definately send in the following F.A. articles:
*]
*]

However, if there are any ], ], or ], with no POV or copyright problems that you'd like to reccomend, please do &mdash; I, for one, would like to see some Tolkien in Misplaced Pages: Version 1.0. —''']]]]''' 13:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
----
Here's the list of articles to be submitted or needed to be improved for WP:1.0. We should submit at least 5-7 articles in. Criteria can be found ].

====F.A. status====
*]
*]

====G.A. status====

====A-class====
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]

====B-class====
*]
*]
*]
*]
*]

====Improvement====
*]
*]
*]

====General Discussion of Tolkien articles on Misplaced Pages Version 1.0====
First, is there a comprehensive list anywhere of the Tolkien-related articles on Misplaced Pages? Is the category system likely to generate the most comprehensive listing? The best lists I could find were ] and the extremely long ]. Not sure whether _all_ the non-ME articles are included in those lists.

Second, I agree that the ] article is of a good standard, but I would like to see more specific references in the ] article, in the same style as in the biographical article.

Third, apart from these two articles, which other ones would provide a rounded and complete view of Tolkien and his works? I would suggest that at least the articles on ], ] and ] should be improved for inclusion, plus all the works in the bibliographical section at ] should be improved to a minimum level beyond stub status (where needed). Even with just the three major works, and the two above, that is 5 articles already. Maybe there is a need for a summary-style article that summarises the three major works (is it fair to call those three his major works - or should the Silmarillion article be a general article about the Silmarillion material and the history of its composition and publication, with the 1977 book being a mere section of the article?), while pointing to the main articles for each book? That would cover his "works" in one article.

Other: apart from (1) The biographical article; (2) a bibliographical "works" article; (3) an article about the fictional "universe" he created; what else would cover Tolkien and Tolkien-related subjects? Maybe (4) a summary style article about the influence of Tolkien? That would briefly touch on areas like: his influence on later fiction, the many books about Tolkien and his works, Tolkien fandom, adaptations and other works inspired by Tolkien (radio, plays, musical, films, artworks, music). This could be summarised from sources like: ] and ] and ].

Also: Even with four articles summarising "biography", "bibliography", "Middle-earth" and "influence", what else needs covering? Are there any articles from each area good enough or important enough to aim to get included in Misplaced Pages 1.0? Maybe ], or a Middle-earth character or place article?

General question: if articles are not good enough for inclusion in Misplaced Pages 1.0, what is the point of having links to those articles? There seems little point in including ] and ] in Misplaced Pages 1.0 if many of the "internal" links to other Misplaced Pages articles do not work. I guess this is a general point about Misplaced Pages 1.0, so what is the answer? Do all the non-CD links appear as "external" links back to the online Misplaced Pages? If so, we need all the links _from_ the Misplaced Pages 1.0 articles to point to articles of reasonable standards.

Should this discussion have its own page? :-) ] 05:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:I've added some articles to the A and B lists for consideration. They are on the longer and general side but obviously they can't all be sent within the ambit of 5-7. Mercilessly edit away.] 20:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::Thanks for those. I think the ] article has most potential. Should we all concentrate on one article, or split the workload? ] 22:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Oh, I'm glad. I tried not to go overboard with the details in the biography like I did with Faramir's article &mdash; I'm happy to hear that the Maedhros article is an improvement and has an approval. <tt>:)</tt> (Also thanks to Eluchil for those edits). I think we should all focus on all the articles in general. Although, I would be more of an expert on the fictional articles as opposed to the real-world Tolkien articles, so perhaps Carcharoth, you could focus on those?
:::Going back on the Maedhros article, I'd like to get it ] so we get up it up to G.A. status. After editing now and then, perhaps we should decide as a concensus whether or not if it's ready for PR? —''']]]]''' 23:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::: My previous comment disapeared in a database update. If we are looking for articles to improve for inclusion, I'd like to nominate the 'species' ones ], ], ], ],and ]. Some need a fair amount of work but I think that they are an important set to have availible. On the other hand, if we consider what we have now, my opinion is that the main geography articles ], ] etc. are in better shape. ] 19:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

====Timetable====

One thing I forgot to ask: what sort of timetable are the Misplaced Pages 1.0 team working with? Is there a deadline by which we need to submit articles to them? We would need time, after improving articles, to go through some forms of peer review and maybe even the Featured Article process. ] 07:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

== Category work ==

Some of the non-Middle-earth Tolkien category structure worked on at ]. Comments and additions would be welcomed either there, here or at ].

The next stage is to decide on names for new categories. I have also been struggling to find a suitable place to discuss this. Would it be OK to set up ]? ] 07:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
:I was thinking of creating categories for works published in Tolkien's lifetime, and works published posthumously. Would this be useful as a category distinction, or would it be best to draw up a list based on this distinction?
:The above relates mostly to ]. I guess categories could be done for books as opposed to texts and essays, and it would be nice to distinguish fiction from essays, and also the "fictional" books mentioned in his works of fiction (eg. Red Book). I think this category lumps together far too much disparate material at the moment. I suggest moving the non-fiction up a level to the correct ], and creating several new categories to make clear the differences between all these texts. ] 10:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
::It'll be highly useful if there was ] or ]. —''']]]]''' 00:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

== Dodgy articles? ==

I found some articles that reference David Day's Bestiary. This is known to be a dodgy reference work, sometimes getting things completely wrong or making things up. Can anyone confirm whether these articles are dodgy?

*]
*]

Is there any way of finding all the articles that use David Day's books as a reference? I'd like to make sure that people aren't adding from, and referencing, dodgy sources like this. ] 09:55, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:For now, I looked at the history for these two articles. Both were created by ] on 5 January 2006. He also added one or both of these creatures to the ] list. Now, I know these creatures exist, but the references should be to the original Tolkien writings, rather than David Day's bestiary. Also, I am uncertain as to whether they are in fact '''Middle-earth''' creatures. In my opinion, the article for each should rather say that they only appear once, in a minor work by Tolkien. This prevents readers from thinking that they appear in LotR or any of Tolkien's major works. Similarly for ], which should reference the relevant volume of HoME (or maybe they are mentioned in UT), and a clear distinction can then be drawn between creatures mentioned in published writings and post-humously published writings. ] 10:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::With the referencing to Tolkien, I agree with. I don't know David Day or the quality of his bestiary, but it's best to reference towards Tolkien and his son's books. Also, I am going to standardize the ] to a standardized list format &mdash; following that, will come merging. <tt>:)</tt> —''']]]]''' 23:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Nice use of references ==

While looking through the list given above, I came across some nice uses of references in the ] article. This is the sort of referencing I would like to see in all the Middle-earth and Tolkien articles, and is what we should be aiming towards. Even though this is the general standard required for Misplaced Pages articles, should references to the sources in Tolkien's writings be emphasised as a standard for articles that fall within the scope of this WikiProject? ] 09:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
:I was worried that I'd perhaps referenced a bit too much with the quotes, but I see that it's not a problem. If anyone wants to correct me on that quote about Ambarussa and Ambarto, feel free. I agree, I think that the Tolkien related articles should have a lot more references, especially articles that're tagged with the {{tl|mecanon}} template. For example, ] and ]. Also, I'm pretty sure that it was Amrod who was burned in the ships of the Teleri, not Amras. Amrod was the younger one of the twin, and it was he who was called Ambarto. —''']]]]''' 23:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Some more stuff done ==

(1) The list at ] now has notes on what categories to create. I'm going to wait until around Sunday for more feedback and comments, and will then start implementing some of the changes, unless there are objections. Please discuss on the talk page for that page. I will also move it all to a Categorisation subpage of this WikiProject at some point.

(2) I added some stuff from that list to ] and also added some comments to some of the sections.

(3) There are some comments above on some dodgy articles. Well, I think they are dodgy. Does anyone have the '''Tolkien''' (not David Day) references for ] and ] handy?

(4) I almost missed some of the discussions on the Standards page. The page I check most often is this one. Is there an easy way to add all the pages of this Wikiproject to my watchlist?

Otherwise, I'll check back here for changes and discussions. ] 21:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:3 - Day 'extrapolates' the details of his books, but always from some grain that actually exists in Tolkien's work. The 'mewlips' and 'gorcrows' both are mentioned in a short poem in ] titled, 'The Mewlips'. However, many of the details in the current articles are inventions not stated in the poem.
:4 - There is no way to 'add all' that I know of, but will show a list of all sub-pages for the Wikiproject so that you can quickly add each to your watchlist. --] 21:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

== Using "What links here" ==

I've been trawling through the 1460 (as of 12/04/2006) Misplaced Pages articles that have links to the ] article, and it has been '''extremely''' interesting! I would recommend that this is a regular thing that people do, both for general interest, and to check editors in other articles are not misrepresenting Tolkien. Is there a schedule for this WikiProject to which such a check could be added?

The list can be obtained by clicking "What links here", but it is more convenient to get the list ordered alphabetically, and by namespace (so you can ignore talk pages and the like). To do this, go to this link .

While browsing that list, I discovered the following:

*] - paints some Tolkien fans in a poor light, and misrepresents film opinions.
*] - says Tolkien was an ex-protestant, and while this might technically be correct, I believe it was his mother who took herself and her two sons from the Protestant faith to the Roman Catholic faith. I think it is missing the point entirely to list Tolkien as an "ex-Protestant".

I also discovered some more Tolkien artists and some Tolkien translators who have Misplaced Pages articles. Doing similar "What links here" searches for articles like ] might yield some other articles that could either be categorised or put in a list (there are 1161 links from article namespace to ). Regardless of '''how''' they are catalogued, they should all be accessible somehow from this WikiProject and the Middle-earth Portal.

Ideally, we should go through the list and carefully sort and categorise everything (most of the stuff should be categorised already). But the "What links here" lists will grow as more editors add references to Tolkien, so should we add a link to the current listing? For editors, the full list is OK, but for readers, we want a dynamically generated list that is restricted to article namespace, and to put a link to that on the Portal. Does anyone know how to do this? ] 10:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:I did this a few weeks ago with the J. R. R. Tolkien, Middle-earth, The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf, et cetera. I was adding all the pages to my watchlist and it came out to ~3000 (including redirects) as I recall. I want to separate out the things on my watchlist that aren't Tolkien related and then use that to update the list of Tolkien articles. However, as you say, new pages will be added all the time and it is good to do these reviews. I think that the ] should be moved to a sub-page of this project and then reformatted to match the layout of the watchlist summary. That would make it easier to compare the current article list against a watchlist and identify unlisted pages. --] 12:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::Do you have to click through to each article and then click "watch"? That seems tedious for 3000 articles! Could you expand a bit more on what you mean by "reformatted to the layout of the watchlist summary"? And isn't it possible to have a page with all the articles listed, and then do a "Recent Changes" thing on that, rather than add to a watchlist? I guess I don't really fully understand watchlists or Recent Changes yet, so I think I'm failing to understand something here. I'm also not quite understanding your technique to identify unlisted pages. Surely the only way to find unlisted pages is to hope that the article contains a link to Tolkien or Middle-earth, or some other keyword in a list (that is assuming, the article is even wikified). Maybe you don't mean update the current article list (which would be a separate process)? Instead, you mean update the watchlist from the current article list, after the current article list is updated (probably by re-running several broad "What links here" scans)? ] 14:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, it takes a while to click 'watch' on every article. The reformatting I was talking about would be to make ] look more like ]. There is a Watchlist link at ] which lets you check 'Recent changes' for all the articles listed on the ] page... as you describe above. However, if that list were put in the same order as the watchlists then you could use any automated comparison tool to identify differences between a user's watchlist and the list of Middle-earth articles. So it would be easier to identify any Tolkien related items on a user's watchlist which aren't in the list of articles. --] 16:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Prizes for weirdest Tolkien links in articles ==

*] - essay by Michael Moorcock attacking Tolkien among other fantasy writers
*] - webcomic with character called Justin Tolkiberry
*] - yet another bored biologist turns to the books for inspiration...

Just had a thought - could these oddments be featured on the Middle-earth portal? Or should there be a Tolkien Portal? And where should discussion of the portal(s) go? Here at the WikiProject, or over at the Portal pages? ] 11:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:If people want it would be pretty easy to relocate this project to 'Wikiproject Tolkien' and the portal to 'Portal:Tolkien'. I don't think it makes sense to have separate projects/portals for the two subjects and the issue keeps coming up. The 'Middle-earth' versions weren't meant to be exclusive of Tolkien, just acknowledgement that the creation holds more interest for most fans than the creator himself. As to discussion of the portal - it was meant to be connected to this project so either place should be ok. The project currently has more active participants than the portal so I'd suggest here for now. The above, and the 'Ava Gardner' meeting we were talking about seem like they might be good for a 'Did you know' type section. --] 12:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
::I agree that one portal for everything does make sense, but it would also be nice to have separate subportals (if that is possible). There will be those who just want the Middle-earth stuff, and there will be those who want more. Can portals redirect? Would the portal need redesigning, or would you just squeeze a box for the "Tolkien" area into the current design? I would say have the portal residing at "Tolkien" so the visible name is a broad umbrella, but have the "Middle-earth" one redirect there (or be a subportal of the Tolkien portal), and have the front portal design focused on Middle-earth - as you say, that is the area of primary interest. I don't know how to do any of this, so I'll leave it up to you and others to decide what is best. ] 13:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Suggestion for portal and project name ==

How about "Tolkien and Middle-earth WikiProject/Portal"? Or is that too wordy? ] 09:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
:Works for me. --] 10:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
::On the other hand, would this be a lot of work to update templates and stuff...? ] 06:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
:::I'd just prefer Tolkien WikiProject/Portal. But that's just me (actualy I'd prefer just Middle-earth WikiProject/Portal, but I know that isn't the consensus). ] 07:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
::::I agree that the "Middle-earth WikiProject/Portal" links should remain active somehow, possibly by redirects if those are possible. I can certainly see cases where some pages would be more suitable for a link advertising the "Middle-earth" portal/wikiproject, it is just that the "Tolkien" pages (anything that refers to stuff to do with Tolkien that is ''more'' than just M-e), need to link to something with a better name, IMO. ] 08:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
:::::Perhaps Tolkien and Middle-earth WikiProject is too wordy, perhaps just as Ted says, Tolkien WikiProject/Portal. —''']]]]''' 11:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
::::::I can see the merits of both approaches, but I tend to think the simpler "Tolkien WikiProject/Portal" is clear enough that it would encompass all M-e stuff as well. That would be my vote, with the old links being redirected or whatever. ] 19:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

== More comments on "references" standards ==

I've added a few comments to the ] over the standards to use for references. ] 08:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

== Discussion at Middle-earth Portal ==

I've made a comment, ], at the talk page for the Middle-earth portal on the Wikiquote link, and standards for external links in general (well, insofar as another Wikimedia project is "external"). Any comments would be appreciated. I also added a banner advertising the Wikiproject on the Portal talk page. ] 15:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

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Maria Skibniewska

New article you may enjoy - translated b/c of my suggestion. A Polish translator of Tolkien works. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap Close to a GA level, perhaps? I could help a bit with Polish sources or such if you'd like to work on that. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:58, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
I think it's splendid: good work! But it's more like yours, you should take it to GAN, not me – all you have to do is to work in some of the Polish sources as it's already of a decent standard. In any case, as you can see above, my GAN queue stretches back six months or more, and in fact I'm successively dropping Middle-earth GANs as I work biological topics up to GA. Who knows, I might even review the article! All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
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