| Revision as of 03:38, 15 May 2012 editMiszaBot I (talk | contribs)234,552 editsm Archiving 2 thread(s) (older than 60d) to Talk:British Pakistanis/Archive 1.← Previous edit |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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== Lords == |
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"Cameron also appointed Lord Ahmed, a Kashmiri born politician, a life peerage, which made Ahmed the first Pakistani peer in the UK." |
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Totally false. It was Lord Ahmad of Rotheram appointed by Labour years ago who was first Pakistani peer. Recently (2010) Cameron has appointment Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon who is a different person. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 00:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Your claims would need a source. ] (]) 19:18, 25 September 2011 (UTC) |
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::The IP appears to be correct. According to , Nazir Ahmad was born in Pakistan and made a peer in 1998. ] (]) 19:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC) |
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== Kashmiris == |
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''"Many Kashmiris have named their businesses after the Pakistani region. One of the largest companies incorporating such a name is Kashmir Crown Bakeries, which is a food making business in Bradford. The company is a major local employer and is the largest Asian food manufacturer in Europe. The owner, Mohammed Saleem, claims that combining traditional Kashmiri baking methods with vocational British training has given his baking business a multi-million pound turnover."'' |
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There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:British Indians#Requested move 17 March 2023 crosspost --> —] 10:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC) |
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This paragraph strikes me as being little more than a thinly disguised advertisement for Mr Saleem and his bakery. As such I would suggest it has no place in this article. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 15:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Typo in 4.1 Kashmiris == |
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== New section seems to be a defamation == |
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The complete Pakistani community in Britain is the subject of this article. Since the crimes of one individual cannot be used to denigrate the entire community, start a new section by engaging in discussion on the talk page so that this content can be added with everyone's approval. <span style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;">]</span> 04:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:It says Home Secretary said that, and it is true that she said that, if defamation is your worry file a case against her. Moreover she doesn't said all british pakistani are involved in grooming gangs. She just said that all those involved in gooming gangs are "almost all british pakistani". ] (]) 08:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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Assuming in paragraph two, "was dominated by rigid hierarchies. Economis boom brought dramatic" the word "Economis" should be altered to "Economic". ] (]) 22:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC) |
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::It's a violation of ] to include Braverman's claims without including sources that have established that she's wrong on the statistics, e.g. . ] (]) 12:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{Done}}, thank you for pointing this out--] ] 23:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:::] Add her statement as well as information from the sources you mentioned. Add everyone's point of view, we are not sitting here to decide who is correct or who is wrong. ] (]) 15:06, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::::This is a volunteer project, {{u|AbhishekSaini1910}}; please don't tell me what to do. ] (]) 16:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::I wasn't ordering you to do it, i was just giving opinion what should be done. I forgot to write "we should" in starting pf my comment. ] (]) 22:17, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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== Grooming Gangs[ == |
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== Blatant pov pushing child grooming == |
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Why this page doesn't contain anything regarding Grooming Gangs, while those at the top of british government, themselves saying that grooming gangs are made up of "almost all british Pakistani" |
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<s>This incident involving a gang of british pakistanis does not deserve mention unless other incidences are mentioned about other communitys this is basically cherry picking of events and an obvious pov push ] (]) 14:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</s><small>This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat ] (]) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</small> |
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:I agree with this. I especially find the long quoting of one POV in the source article without reference to police opinions on the matter baffling. ] (]) 14:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::It is unfortunate that these events did involve a lot of cherry picking.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 14:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::That's cute. However, the more I think about it the less I think this section belongs in a general article on a large population. Here it seems to be implying that pedophilia is somehow something to do with their ethnic background, which is a pretty strong claim to make in a supposedly NPOV article. Notice that the Belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of Belgians, to name one example. The incident already has its own wiki entry, and that should be enough. I say we take this section out. ] (]) 14:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::: <s>I know where this is coming from its got nothing to do with concerns for crimes or whatever its basically a few pov pushers with a dislike of certain people in reality there have been gangs of rapists from Romania, Africa and other places but there is no mention blatant pov ] (]) 15:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</s><small>Nangparbat sock <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 20:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</small> |
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::: this sort of information belongs to pages like ] or ]. however, user ankhmorpork is hellbent on adding this content not only to this page but others as well (check out his edit history), and thus reveals his agenda. there are several pages about racial groups on wikipedia and none of them contain such content. for example, millions of such crimes are comitted in the usa every year but not one of them are mentioned ]. this is blatant pov-pushing, and should be deleted.--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::These crimes have been commented on by several sources as directly affecting the British Pakistani community. Comment on content, not the editor per ]<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 15:19, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::: Here I agree with AnkhMorpork, let's keep this civil. But I still don't see why this section belongs on this page. It creates the false impression that single instances of crime somehow reflect upon the larger group, a logic which only seems to apply in the case of this specific group of immigrants. This goes against the NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. We're not talking about removing all references to the child grooming issue, as it already has its own entry. Even if you can find sources that say that this reflects badly upon Pakistanis in Britain (which is probably true), that doesn't make this a general controversy regarding the continued existence of Pakistani immigrants in Britain, and that is why this section should be removed. ] (]) 17:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::The insertion does not refer to "single instances of crime". The impact of these events and their effect on the Pakistani community has been commented upon by sources, including a that investigated the grooming of young girls for sex by Pakistani men in the UK.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 17:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::I agree with Ankh on this, there was a massive backlash in the UK after this case. ] (]) 17:08, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::If that is the case, then the paragraph should be rephrased to reflect the backlash, as that is what is pertinent to the main article. Also, I see that on the wiki page for the Rochdale sex trafficking gang, the "concerns" section has been marked with a weasel tag. I don't think this paragraph should be restored until it is rewritten to reflect how this case has caused a massive backlash, and sourced correctly.] (]) 17:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::It is not just that though is it? "in the recent scandal regarding two Asian men found guilty of grooming young girls for sex, and then abusing them. The local MP, Jack Straw, said that it was “a specific problem which involves Pakistani heritage men”" ''Thought Paralysis: The Virtues of Discrimination'' "Agencies have identified a long term pattern of offending by gangs of men, predominately from the British Pakistani community, who have befriended and abused hundreds of vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16" ''The Terrorist Next Door'' ] (]) 18:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I'm sorry, but I don't think these last changes cut it. The source of the first claim, Erick Stakelbeck, cannot be called neutral by any definition of the word. He is a known anti-Muslim agitator with no formal training in cases of terrorism and Muslim immigration (I believe he used to be a sports reporter) and also subscribes to bizarre views such as fearing that Muslims will attack the U.S. with electro-magnetic pulse weapons. He has also said he thinks George Bush jr. was a coward because he did not declare war on Islam after 9/11. The second source not only contradicts its own title later in the article (most UK child abusers are in fact whites, even if Asians are overrepresented), but the Times article that is referenced is not a news article but an opinion piece. It even states unequivocally "Of course, most British Pakistanis are not in a CSE network." So why does this issue deserve its own subsection on this page? I still think it should be left out completely until someone comes up with a well-sourced argument for why some sex offenders should be connected to the larger population of British Pakistanis (and I suspect that this is the reason we don't see similar entries on the main pages for Belgium or Austria) ] (]) 20:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC) |
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<s>::::: Then with your logic every page should mention the crimes of certain people like say american jews? British africans? etc its totally pov to single out one community while ignoring others maybe an article on europeans travelling to thailand for "holidays" with kids and mention what part of europe they come from ? ] (]) 15:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</s><small>This account has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Nangerbat ] (]) 16:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)</small> |
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Home Secretary Suella Braverman said that the perpetrators of such crimes are “groups of men, almost all British Pakistani”. To the BBC she said the gangs were "overwhelmingly" made up of British-Pakistani males. British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has vowed to do whatever it takes to root out grooming gangs and put more perpetrators behind bars. The UK PM announced a new Grooming Gangs Taskforce to tackle the menace. |
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Could someone explain to me why relevant and sourced information is removed from the article?--] (]) 17:40, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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: no consensus. take it to the npov-noticeboard and you'll see what happens.--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 17:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::Who don't agree except of you?And why do you object there are plenty ] that make the connection--] (]) 17:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::: i disagree. that is sufficient. let's take this to dispute resolution.--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 17:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::No its not, majority of users agree, you may take it of course to any relevant board if you wish of course--] (]) 18:00, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::: i am taking this to dispute resolution.--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 18:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::What are you thinking? A few news articles on a recent group of crimes are ] for attributing substantial criminal behaviour to a group of approximately 1.2 million people with a history of four centuries. Remember ] — we write to reflect what the majority of sources study throughout time, not to give the latest tidbits of information. Wait until books (from strong publishers, not something like "Karnac Books") or other academic work is published on this subject, and only reintroduce it if those publications attribute a close connection between the crimes and the British Pakistani community as a whole. ] (]) 13:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::i totally agree with you, nyttend. this highly contentious content was forced into the article by user ankmorpork and user shrike by an edit war. i have started a discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard here, .--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 13:18, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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This is POV-pushing bigotry, end of story. Shit like this doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, and the sooner we get rid of the sort of individuals who think it does, the better. ] (]) 15:24, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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: user ankmorpork should be banned as he is quite disruptive. what is the right venue to address his behavior?--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 15:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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] (]) 08:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::Why don't you concentrate on the disputed content rather than hectoring the editor with whom you are in dispute? On the bare facts he has been no more disruptive than you have been. ]] 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:Do not call me a bigot andy, statistically Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources. Which doe snot make adding it to this article bigotry but DUE. ] (]) 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::"Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK, as is reflected in the reliable sources". Please cite a source that states this. I've not seen any. And BTW, those involved in the Rochdale case weren't 'Pakistanis', they were British citizens on Pakistani descent (apart from the one who was an Afghan refugee). ] (]) 17:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:Try or .<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 18:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::Now find a ''reliable'' source that states that "Pakistanis carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK", rather than one that makes a claim in the headline which it fails to support in the story. And are you really trying to present that source as neutral? ] (]) 18:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== Genetic defects material == |
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:: as noted by user:benjamil, this all boils down to badges of shame. to quote benjamil who sarcastically wrote: |
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:::"Couldn't we add similar badges of shame on many articles on national/ethnic groups? Austrians, it seems, have a unique proclivity for private incarcerations with pedophilic/incestuous motives. Belgians are known for pedophilia and Norwegians are mass consumers of sex workers abroad, to the point that the goverment needs to regulate it" |
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::another user noted above: "belgium page does not feature a subsection on the innate pedophilia of belgians". many europeans are involved in the disgusting thai sex trade but there is no subsection about this on the europeans-page either. user:Iloveandrea noted:"Can you imagine the reaction if someone posted something about Jews having a propensity to paedophilia, citing some right-wing Saudi website?" and what if black americans "carry out a disproportionate amount of sex attacks" in the us? are you going to add a subsection about that too? i don't think so. you are now maligning a whole a racial group. shame on you. --<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 18:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::] bugger, your argument just failed. The fact remains, a disproportionate amount of sex attacks in the UK are carried out by British Pakistanis, apologies to Andy for my missing that earlier ] (]) 22:27, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::The 'fact remains' that you have yet to provide a source for that assertion. ] (]) 22:33, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::For fucks sake Andy, you can only look the other way so often. Always problem with the left, everyone is a "bigot" ] (]) 22:42, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::The Independant article says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' whatsoever. The BBC source (from 2004) says nothing about 'British Pakistanis' in general, or about disproportionate levels of anything. The third source you cite states "Thus no official data exists on the ethnic or religious background of perpetrators of this form of child abuse, and local charities have stated publicly that they do not consider it a race issue. But it is worth noting that, when asked by the Times to collate its recent work according to ethnicity, Engage – based in Blackburn and one of the largest multi-agency organisations working on this issue – found that in the past year that 80% of offenders were white." You are a liar, and a bigot, and unfit to contribute to Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Andy - Sources ''were'' provided; claims of 'bias' do not invalidate sources. How about one: "''The string of convictions in cities such as Rotherham, Preston, Blackburn, Rochdale and now Derby have more often than not involved Asian men, specifically men of Pakistani origin, and mainly Muslim.''"<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 22:45, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Fuck off and push your bigotry somewhere else. We don't need you here. ] (]) 22:59, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::Fuck you and the white horse you rode in on, call me a bigot once more and I will expect satisfaction you wanker. 23:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::"expect satisfaction"? Are you out of your mind? What century do you think this is? Actually, I think your bigotry gives us a clue.... ] (]) 23:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Your response is in fact what I expected, another keyboard coward who feels it is just fine to label anyone they disagree with. You sir are a prick, and a coward. Should you in facf manage to grow a pair feel free to email me. ] (]) 23:12, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::LOL! Why would I want to e-mail you? ] (]) 02:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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{{od}}Andy - Can you please at least comment on the sources, say something informative such as "you are a bigot because..." and "you lied because the sources in fact state..."<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 23:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:Another to contemplate, this time, The Times. "child protection experts have identified a repeated pattern of sex offending...most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage...The Times has seen a briefing document by researchers at the UCL Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science, which notes that victims are typically white girls aged 13 to 16 and that “most central offenders are Pakistani”". And dare yourself to peek at Telegraph article.<small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']'''.''']'''</small> 23:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::How convenient that the Times article is behind a firewall. No chance to see how you've cherry-picked it like you've done with the Telegraph. The article is clearly referring to specific cases, rather than to any broader statistics - and it is only repeating the Times anyway, it isn't another source for anything. ] (]) 00:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Well, well. AnkhMorpork, would you like to provide the entire sentence for "most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage..."? Actually, you'd better, because, from what I've been able to find elsewhere, it seems to continue "..., unlike other known models of child-sex offending in Britain, including child abuse initiated by online grooming, in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white". This blatant misrepresentation of sources is sufficient grounds alone to call for a topic ban, if not an outright block. I suggest you start thinking about finding another forum for your hate-fuelled POV-pushing. ] (]) 00:16, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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I've reverted to re-add this material, {{u|Colormaxxing}}, after it was previously reverted by another editor. You now need to follow ] and make the case for the addition here on the talk page. I also asked for input at ]. One of the major problems seems to be that you're extrapolating from a small study limited to Southern Derbyshire to the whole British Pakistani population. ] (]) 20:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::the guardian source actually states: |
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:NB: Colormaxxing has since been blocked as a sockpuppet. ] (]) 07:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::"Anecdotally, as far back as the mid-90s, local agencies have been aware of the participation of ethnic minority men in some cases of serial abuse. But what has *not* emerged is *any* consistent evidence to suggest that Pakistani Muslim men are uniquely and disproportionately involved in these crimes, nor that they are preying on white girls because they believe them to be legitimate sexual quarry, as is now being suggested." |
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:::::::thus, british-pakistani men are *not* disproportionately involved in these crimes. anyway, the issue is still about ankhmorpork adding badges of shame. the second source provided by user:ds claims that young black men are behind a high proportion of gang rapes...now, is ankhmorpork going to add a subsection about this on the page of ]?--<small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;background:blue;">]</span></small> 23:07, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== Edit protection == |
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== British Airways image == |
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I do not think it is neccessary to mention Imran Khan's happiness of British Airways returning. It had nothing to do with the rest of the paragraphs. ] (]) 13:15, 31 August 2024 (UTC) |
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As similar controversial material has been added and removed several times over the last week, in response to a request at ], I have fully protected this article for one week as an uninvolved administrator. The intention of full protection is for contributors and interested parties to reach a consensus on this talk page through open discussion of the issues, sources and appropriate weight for this article. If discussion here, or the more structured discussion at ] does not establish a consensus, please consider the other options available as described at ]. --] (]) 22:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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The complete Pakistani community in Britain is the subject of this article. Since the crimes of one individual cannot be used to denigrate the entire community, start a new section by engaging in discussion on the talk page so that this content can be added with everyone's approval. 𝘚𝘢𝘯𝘦𝘮𝘈𝘺𝘩𝘢𝘯07 04:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Home Secretary Suella Braverman said that the perpetrators of such crimes are “groups of men, almost all British Pakistani”. To the BBC she said the gangs were "overwhelmingly" made up of British-Pakistani males. British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has vowed to do whatever it takes to root out grooming gangs and put more perpetrators behind bars. The UK PM announced a new Grooming Gangs Taskforce to tackle the menace.
