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Talk:Branko Damljanović: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 12:45, 27 May 2012 editIn ictu oculi (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers180,551 edits →Requested move← Previous edit Latest revision as of 17:47, 15 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,862,407 editsm →top: -dup blp paramsTag: AWB 
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Stub|blp=yes|listas=Damljanovic, Branko|1=
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|living=yes
⚫ {{WikiProject Chess|importance=Low}}
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⚫ {{WikiProject Serbia|importance=}}
|listas=Damljanovic, Branko
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⚫ {{WikiProject Chess|class=Stub|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Serbia|class=Stub|importance=}}


==Requested move== ==Requested move==
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
{{requested move/dated|multiple=yes
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
|current1=Branko Damljanovic|new1=Branko Damljanović|current2=Bosko Abramovic|new2=Boško Abramović|current3=Borislav Milic|new3=Borislav Milić|current4=Dejan Antic|new4=Dejan Antić}}

The result of the move request was: '''move all'''. ] (]) 18:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

----


* ] → {{no redirect|Branko Damljanović}} * ] → {{no redirect|Branko Damljanović}}
Line 17: Line 17:
* ] → {{no redirect|Borislav Milić}} * ] → {{no redirect|Borislav Milić}}
* ] → {{no redirect|Dejan Antić}} * ] → {{no redirect|Dejan Antić}}
Per MOS "consistent with related articles" ], per ] and per reliable-for-purpose sources. ] (]) 12:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC) – Per MOS "consistent with related articles" ], per ] and per reliable-for-purpose sources. ] (]) 12:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''', as this is ''English language Misplaced Pages'' & there's no diacritics in the English alphabet. ] (]) 13:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
**Both points are fallacious. The English language ''does'' use diacritics, obviously for foreign names and concepts, but even for unimpeachably English names like Zoë or Chloë. This might be the "English language Misplaced Pages" but it covers ''foreign subjects too''. Misspelling doesn't magically make a name ''English''; it makes a name ''wrong''. ] (]) 10:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. As a scholarly source of information (or one that should aspire to be), Misplaced Pages should consistently provide diacritics where they are used in the names of persons, even if less scholarly sources occasionally omit them. Serbian is written in either Cyrillic or Latin alphabets, and in the Latin alphabet it uses diacritics. Diacritics provide important pronunciation information for those who can understand them and can simply be ignored by those who don't. — ] (]) 13:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:::The form of name with diacritics should be given boldface in the opening, per ]. The title is supposed to be the form most recognizable to the reader. Providing correct English-language spelling is more useful than giving a foreign language form. But of course this is false choice, we can give both. ] (]) 07:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
{{quotation|] (from ]): '''François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand''' (October 26, 1916 – January 8, 1996) ...}}
::::Kauffner, as before I believe you are misreading ], the example given is of a French name with diacritics. If your reading of ] is correct can you please illustrate an example that shows your reading of it in use. Because if your reading is correct, then not just ], and ] are wrong, but every article in ] is wrong. Is it possible you have misread ]? Cheers ] (]) 03:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::This Misplaced Pages is primarily for English-only readers. Multi-lingual readers, have the option of other language Wikipedias & shouldn't be pushing diacritics on English Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 13:39, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:::This Misplaced Pages is for everyone who can read English. Even monolingual English speakers understand some diacritics, for instance "é" at the end of a word for an "e" that would otherwise be silent, as for "resumé" (aka "résumé"), Beyoncé, and many other examples. And the use of diaeresis to split up what might otherwise be considered a diphthong is long-established in English, the ''New Yorker'' magazine notably has long used the spelling "coöperation" (a bit affected but still perfectly valid). So when you start "transliterating" English into English, as you did with for the name of a (presumably native-born) American like Zoë Baird, you really should step back a bit and consider. — ] (]) 15:35, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::
::::It's for English 'only' readers first & the English alphabet has no diacritics. ] (]) 22:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': Might it be wise to see how ] turns out before moving on these? No vote as yet. ] (]) 20:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
*:Jelena Dokić is complicated a bit by the fact that she has migrated back and forth more than once between countries, i.e., whether she has implicitly or intentionally changed the spelling of her name by living in Australia. It's also complicated by the fact that she is a tennis player, because it has been claimed that tennis players are required to register for their player ID serial numbers with diacritic-less names, which supposedly means they have chosen to be known by an English name without diacritics (I am paraphrasing and perhaps misstating the argument, but in any case, requested moves for sports figures in tennis and hockey in particular have been more fraught with disputes than average). And finally, moderate diacritics opposers for the most part tend to insist that every article needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. So, no, I don't think the outcome of the Jelena Dokić move would resolve anything here. — ] (]) 21:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
**:The Jelena Dokić RM is complicated because (i) the nationality issue which P.T. Aufrette mentions, which is a meaningful issue. (ii) the fraught history of tennis/hockey. But the third issue, or non-issue, (iii) is very generic: In that case 2 academic sources in English (Grasso and Roberts) have her as "Jelena Dokić", the same as a 3rd academic source listing the Serbian pianist Jelena Dokić, but popular sources with NY Times MOS (allowing French, German and Spanish names, but not allowing Slavic, Scandinavian, and Turkish names) strip the accent, as they do ] and every one of the 400,000 Slavic, Scandinavian, and Turkish bios and places on en.wp. Including all the chess players in ], ], ], ], ], ], ], etc. The issue as usual is to follow ] and identify reliable-for-purpose sources or simply play American Idol where the most sources, reliable for spelling or not, 'wins'. ] (]) 22:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support''' move to more accurate names. ] (]) 10:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support''', these are clearly the correct names of the individuals. ] (]) 09:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support''' removing of diacritics is not translating. And even translating of names has gone out of fashion with WWI. ] (]) 17:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

* '''Support''' per P.T. Aufrette. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]<sup>]</sup></span> 20:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. The subjects are from and almost exclusively notable for actions in or on behalf of a country that use the diacritics in question. Encyclopedias such as Misplaced Pages typically don't "translate" names of living or modern people and Misplaced Pages does not have technical limitations or style-manual issues requiring it to drop diacritics as some less accurate sources do. — ] 03:12, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

*

===Discussion===
Surely, most at least of the discussion relating to my heads-up comment above belongs at ] rather than here? ] (]) 00:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:Not really, for the two reasons (i) (ii) which P.T. Aufrette gave. There are two odd factors there that don't apply here. The third, (iii) generic issue, of a minority of accurate-for-spelling sources vs a majority of inaccurate-for-spelling sources applies to every article on en.wp touching on any Latin-alphabet language country. But by all means focus on the four chess players here, that's fine. Cheers. ] (]) 01:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move all. Favonian (talk) 18:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

– Per MOS "consistent with related articles" Category:Serbian chess players, per WP:Naming conventions (Serbian) and per reliable-for-purpose sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:42, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose, as this is English language Misplaced Pages & there's no diacritics in the English alphabet. GoodDay (talk) 13:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Both points are fallacious. The English language does use diacritics, obviously for foreign names and concepts, but even for unimpeachably English names like Zoë or Chloë. This might be the "English language Misplaced Pages" but it covers foreign subjects too. Misspelling doesn't magically make a name English; it makes a name wrong. bobrayner (talk) 10:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. As a scholarly source of information (or one that should aspire to be), Misplaced Pages should consistently provide diacritics where they are used in the names of persons, even if less scholarly sources occasionally omit them. Serbian is written in either Cyrillic or Latin alphabets, and in the Latin alphabet it uses diacritics. Diacritics provide important pronunciation information for those who can understand them and can simply be ignored by those who don't. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 13:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The form of name with diacritics should be given boldface in the opening, per WP:FULLNAME. The title is supposed to be the form most recognizable to the reader. Providing correct English-language spelling is more useful than giving a foreign language form. But of course this is false choice, we can give both. Kauffner (talk) 07:38, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:FULLNAME (from François Mitterrand): François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (October 26, 1916 – January 8, 1996) ...

Kauffner, as before I believe you are misreading WP:FULLNAME, the example given is of a French name with diacritics. If your reading of WP:FULLNAME is correct can you please illustrate an example that shows your reading of it in use. Because if your reading is correct, then not just Category:Serbian chess players, and WP:Naming conventions (Serbian) are wrong, but every article in Category:Serbian people is wrong. Is it possible you have misread WP:FULLNAME? Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 03:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
This Misplaced Pages is primarily for English-only readers. Multi-lingual readers, have the option of other language Wikipedias & shouldn't be pushing diacritics on English Misplaced Pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
This Misplaced Pages is for everyone who can read English. Even monolingual English speakers understand some diacritics, for instance "é" at the end of a word for an "e" that would otherwise be silent, as for "resumé" (aka "résumé"), Beyoncé, and many other examples. And the use of diaeresis to split up what might otherwise be considered a diphthong is long-established in English, the New Yorker magazine notably has long used the spelling "coöperation" (a bit affected but still perfectly valid). So when you start "transliterating" English into English, as you did with this edit for the name of a (presumably native-born) American like Zoë Baird, you really should step back a bit and consider. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
It's for English 'only' readers first & the English alphabet has no diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Might it be wise to see how Talk:Jelena Dokić#Requested move 2 turns out before moving on these? No vote as yet. Andrewa (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
    Jelena Dokić is complicated a bit by the fact that she has migrated back and forth more than once between countries, i.e., whether she has implicitly or intentionally changed the spelling of her name by living in Australia. It's also complicated by the fact that she is a tennis player, because it has been claimed that tennis players are required to register for their player ID serial numbers with diacritic-less names, which supposedly means they have chosen to be known by an English name without diacritics (I am paraphrasing and perhaps misstating the argument, but in any case, requested moves for sports figures in tennis and hockey in particular have been more fraught with disputes than average). And finally, moderate diacritics opposers for the most part tend to insist that every article needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. So, no, I don't think the outcome of the Jelena Dokić move would resolve anything here. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 21:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. The subjects are from and almost exclusively notable for actions in or on behalf of a country that use the diacritics in question. Encyclopedias such as Misplaced Pages typically don't "translate" names of living or modern people and Misplaced Pages does not have technical limitations or style-manual issues requiring it to drop diacritics as some less accurate sources do. —  AjaxSmack  03:12, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Surely, most at least of the discussion relating to my heads-up comment above belongs at Talk:Jelena Dokić#Requested move 2 rather than here? Andrewa (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Not really, for the two reasons (i) (ii) which P.T. Aufrette gave. There are two odd factors there that don't apply here. The third, (iii) generic issue, of a minority of accurate-for-spelling sources vs a majority of inaccurate-for-spelling sources applies to every article on en.wp touching on any Latin-alphabet language country. But by all means focus on the four chess players here, that's fine. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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