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| == Membership controversy: update == | |||
| According to website PinkNews (17th July 2012):- | |||
| "''US: Boy Scouts will keep ban on gay people''" | |||
| ''The Boy Scouts of America has announced it will retain its ban on gay members, volunteers and staff.'' | |||
| ''Bob Mazzuca, chief scout executive, said: “The vast majority of the parents of youth we serve value their right to address issues of same-sex orientation within their family, with spiritual advisers, and at the appropriate time and in the right setting. | |||
| ''“While a majority of our membership agrees with our policy, we fully understand that no single policy will accommodate the many diverse views among our membership or society.”'' | |||
| There is discussion which includes this at ] <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 14:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC) | |||
| == Discussion Page Is More Informative == | |||
| I would like to also comment on the article in that the discussion page tends to be more informative than the actual article page insofar as the contemporary Boy Scouts of America. There is a great deal of information missing in the article which makes the article fairly irrelevant. The Boy Scouts of America of 20 years ago is '''nothing like''' the Boy Scouts of America today. The Mormon Christianic organization has pretty much taken over the BSofA at the National Level to the point where hatred and bigotry has swamped the otherwise good and beneficial BSofA that used to exist. | |||
| Scout Leaders across the country lament this problem, in fact, and discussions held on Scout forums such as on LinkedIn routinely have Scout Leaders asking members of the forums what can be done to try to wrest the organization from the brink of extinction caused by religious extremism "hijacking" the organization. Membership is dropping even as world-wide condemnation of the organization increases -- which is unfair to the boys who wish to learn and camp and hike without the baggage of the oppressive bigotries and hatreds that their parents' religious leaders wish to impose. | |||
| Has there been a problem with updating the article to be more informative and inclusive of contemporary information about the national organization? It seems highly likely that cult followers will oppose any updates which cover and reference what the organization has become. The article will have to remain a description of what the organization '''used to be''' since it seems likely that any informative update that brings the article up-to-date will be challenged, reversed, and vandalized. | |||
| ==GA Reassessment== | |||
| On the other hand the problems with the organization tend to exist at the '''National Level''', not the Troop Level so much. At the '''Troop Level''' things are quite a bit different depending upon the specific cult that charters a Troop. The core ideologies of hatred, bigotry, and division that we see advocated at the National Level is seen mirrored at the Troop Level perhaps half of the time, with half of the Troops and their leaders obeying the hate-centric dictates and policies of their National leaders, but the other half clinging to the core beneficial, love-inspired aspects of the BSofA as they used to exist prior to the organization's take-over by right wing religious zealots. | |||
| {{Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment/Boy Scouts of America/1}} | |||
| ==Meeting of the minds== | |||
| I should note that I don't wish to offend anyone, discussion about religious-motivated hatred, bigotry, and division can be done in an adult fashion with calm reason. To be sure the article here does not '''need''' to be complete yet if it's to be an historic examination in to what the organization used to be, it might be reasonable to note the fact that the article here is very much historic rather than contemporary. ] (]) 20:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|Graywalls}} The last few days, you have been all over the BSA related articles: | |||
| *{{la|Boy Scouts of America}} | |||
| *{{la|COPE (Boy Scouts of America)}} | |||
| *{{la|National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience}} | |||
| *{{la|Philmont Training Center}} | |||
| *{{la|Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America)}} | |||
| *{{la|Béla H. Bánáthy}} | |||
| *{{la|Scouting}} | |||
| Then there's this: ] | |||
| :This sounds more like an implausible personal opinion rant rather than any potential source material to be added. Do you have any wp:reliably sourced material that you are proposing to add? <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 20:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| I'm not sure what to ask here, but clearly you've decided to focus on scouting articles, and you seem to be taking a lot of unilateral actions on long-established articles. I'm going to bring in {{ping|Jergen|btphelps|North8000}} to see if they can help focus this discussion. --] <sup>(])</sup> 04:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Bottom line: reliable sources. ---'''''— ]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>]</sup> 23:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Evrik}}, After some digging following the Big Sur thing, I've come across sufficient proof to show btphelps have a strong COI with ] and White Stag and a probable ] as well as I've started working on it once I've identified their insertion of Whitestag.org sources into various articles. They've been asked to answer on their page. We have a ] policy, so I can not discuss the proof on Misplaced Pages ] (]) 06:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::btphelps has overlapping interests. This is not a COI. This is simply throwing mud and seeing what sticks. --] <sup>(])</sup> 21:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| I haven't looked at the other ones but for this one you deleted long standing material core material on the basis of which wiki formatting method was used. And then are claiming that a consensus is needed to retain long standing material. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 14:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree, which is why I have changed the article back. --] <sup>(])</sup> 21:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::per the comments above, look at ]. --] <sup>(])</sup> 00:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| I am going to be AFK until next week. Just an FYI, I just posted this: ] --] <sup>(])</sup> 03:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :For ease of finding it, now ] -- ] (]) 13:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Well, just off the top of my head ] did a whole episode on the topic. (S4E1) I dunno if it qualifies as a "reliable source" but it proves ] isn't just pulling it out of thin air. ] (]) 07:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::I have seen the P&T episode— while it touches on these topics, in my opinion it is not a reliable source. ---'''''— ]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>]</sup> 12:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Nobody said anything about thin air. I think that all of that mis-sumarization/exagggeration/ranting grew from actual opinions of some people. Which in turn grew from the actual "no avowed atheists" policy, the now-disappeared policy against avowed homosexuals in leadership positions, and cases of enforcement of both. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 11:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == Use of Age Range for Cub Scouts in Infobox == | |||
| == Recently added "whistles" external link == | |||
| Since Cub Scouts membership is based on current grade of the Scout, rather than their age, would it make more sense in the Info Box to list a wider age range than just 5-10, or to instead list K-5th Grade? I was 4 when I started Kindergarten, so based on what's listed here, I couldn't join in Kindergarten which I know is not correct. Additionally, there are some 5th graders that turn 11 before bridging over to Scouts BSA, so perhaps a wider age range is appropriate? ] (]) 17:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Considering the shortness of the list and the broad scope of items on it, this entry may be too specialized for adding here. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:14, 29 March 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Info boxes always need to be over-abbreviated. I think that giving a general idea based on ages is good even if imperfect. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 17:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == |
==Organization name change in the lead== | ||
| Nice work! IMO eventually there should be a section on this for two reasons. Would allow putting more on this important news than can fit in the lead. Also the lead should be a summary of what is in the body of the article and I don't see where this is in the body of the article. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 14:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| First, as a sidebar, the recent changes back and forth in the lead caused me to take a closer look at the lead overall. I think that it may need a look overall that it represents a summary of the overall article. Right now it seems to just cover some selected items, some of them very narrow. This is a wide ranging 100+ year old multi-million person organization, so there is a lot of material. | |||
| :Yes. This information needs to be described in detail in its own section in the article and summarised in the lead. ] (]) 23:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| That leads to noting that about 20% of the lead is currently devoted membership requirement related controversies/court case etc. If not too much, this may be borderline. One of the two big problems with the most recent (reverted) insertion was that it makes the percentage of the lead devoted to this narrow area even larger. | |||
| ==Clarity on name change== | |||
| The second challenge with the reverted addition to the lead is that such an attempt to create a brief personal summary of the current policies (including the qualifiers on the exclusions and which parts of BSA they do and don't apply to) is inevitably innacurate, probably syntheses, and very prone to spin. | |||
| Based on recent edits which I had to revert, it would be good to summarize. | |||
| Other than IMO the recent major attempted changes to the ''lead'' are not good/beneficial, I'm not sure of the answers, just some of the questions. Again, this the top level article on a wide ranging 100+ year old multi-million person organization, with lots of sub-articles, so we have to be judicious about the amount of coverage what gets in the article and doubly so for the the lead. Sincerely, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:10, 20 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *The name of the '''''overall organization''''' will officially change from "Boy Scouts of America" to "Scouting America" in 2025. But they are informally starting to use the new name now. | |||
| :We are a global encyclopaedia. From a global Scouting perspective, rather than just an American one, what makes Scouting in America notable is precisely its very conservative and blatantly discriminatory approach to membership. American Scouting people may not like the image, but it is a sad reality that their position is an extreme one within the global Scouting movement. Many see it as a breach of the basic principles of Scouting. This '''global''' encyclopaedia needs to highlight that, rather than just taking the perspective of American Scouting supporters. ] (]) 22:42, 20 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *The name of the flagship '''''program''''' within the organization (roughly speaking the main one serving 11-15 year olds, technically approx 10-18) changed from "Boy Scouts" to "Scouts BSA" in 2019 and there is no additional change to this announced and they specifically said that the announced change does not affect this. | |||
| ::I agree with HiLo, but suggest that the discriminatory approach to membership is what makes the BSA most notable, in our WP terms, in the USA also. There seems to have been a lot of recent press notice about the latest announcement that the BSA is not changing its policy. Of course the BSA does lots of other things and they are good things, but these will get noticed in the local press for local events, not the national press. I have no problem with the change that was being proposed, as it addresses this very notable activity within the USA about the BSA. --] ] 01:18, 21 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| IMO we should not move/rename the article until new name change is official in 2025. | |||
| :::I locked the article for 24 hours due to the edit warring. Please make {{em|specific}} proposals here. ---'''''— ]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>]</sup> 01:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't know enough about the global Scouting movement's perception of American scouting to know whether discrimination is part of BSA's international image, but I rather think that it forms part of its American image. That said, my main concern here is that we toss the SCOTUS case into the lede with no context - it's all very well to say wooo! free association! but it's downright weird and possibly POV to suppress the content of the membership controversies. –] (] ⋅ ]) 06:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::We need to do this right and not suppress anything. My main concerns are accuracy of any summary and weight for the article and for the lead. Also even though I reverted the removal of the SCOTUS sentence, I did that because it took away half of a two sentence item; I don't necessarily say that the SCOTUS sentence should be in the lead, but it probably should be there if that overall topic is covered there because it is very salient/notable with respect to that topic. We should work out something here in talk. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 11:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Since there seems to be some consensus that it doesn't belong in the lead, I moved it. ] (]) 00:22, 22 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 15:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC) | |||
| While not too thrilled about the process (I think we needed to develop it in talk first) the most recent change does leave what's left in the lead as a complete thought. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 13:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Looks like we've reached a compromise. ] (]) 17:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hmmmmm. It's pretty shallow. It says nothing about who those "critics" are. The mention of litigation and federal courts is all about America, not the global situation. It's all parochial. The issue of ignoring what the rest of the world thinks is now both the problem with the BSA, and with the article. ] (]) 18:12, 22 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::How would you improve it? ] (]) 18:16, 22 July 2012 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 17:35, 10 November 2024
 | Boy Scouts of America was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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 | This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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 | Styles: This is an article about the Boy Scouts of America. In addition to standard style guides, the Language of Scouting is also used. |
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GA Reassessment
Boy Scouts of America
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
- Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Numerous unreferenced sections, including the entirety of the "Groups and divisions" section. Z1720 (talk) 16:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
- Delist per uncited content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Meeting of the minds
@Graywalls: The last few days, you have been all over the BSA related articles:
- Boy Scouts of America (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- COPE (Boy Scouts of America) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Philmont Training Center (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Leadership training (Boy Scouts of America) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Béla H. Bánáthy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Scouting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Then there's this: Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Big Sur, California area touristy contents
I'm not sure what to ask here, but clearly you've decided to focus on scouting articles, and you seem to be taking a lot of unilateral actions on long-established articles. I'm going to bring in @Jergen, Btphelps, and North8000: to see if they can help focus this discussion. --evrik 04:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Evrik:, After some digging following the Big Sur thing, I've come across sufficient proof to show btphelps have a strong COI with Béla H. Bánáthy and White Stag and a probable WP:UPE as well as I've started working on it once I've identified their insertion of Whitestag.org sources into various articles. They've been asked to answer on their page. We have a WP:OUTING policy, so I can not discuss the proof on Misplaced Pages Graywalls (talk) 06:27, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- btphelps has overlapping interests. This is not a COI. This is simply throwing mud and seeing what sticks. --evrik 21:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the other ones but for this one you deleted long standing material core material on the basis of which wiki formatting method was used. And then are claiming that a consensus is needed to retain long standing material. North8000 (talk) 14:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, which is why I have changed the article back. --evrik 21:15, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- per the comments above, look at Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Quotes_based_on_primary_sources_on_Boy_Scouts_of_America. --evrik 00:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I am going to be AFK until next week. Just an FYI, I just posted this: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Graywalls reported by User:Evrik (Result:_) --evrik 03:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
- For ease of finding it, now Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Graywalls reported by User:Evrik (Result: Declined) -- Pemilligan (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Use of Age Range for Cub Scouts in Infobox
Since Cub Scouts membership is based on current grade of the Scout, rather than their age, would it make more sense in the Info Box to list a wider age range than just 5-10, or to instead list K-5th Grade? I was 4 when I started Kindergarten, so based on what's listed here, I couldn't join in Kindergarten which I know is not correct. Additionally, there are some 5th graders that turn 11 before bridging over to Scouts BSA, so perhaps a wider age range is appropriate? Tostie14 (talk) 17:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Info boxes always need to be over-abbreviated. I think that giving a general idea based on ages is good even if imperfect. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Organization name change in the lead
Nice work! IMO eventually there should be a section on this for two reasons. Would allow putting more on this important news than can fit in the lead. Also the lead should be a summary of what is in the body of the article and I don't see where this is in the body of the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. This information needs to be described in detail in its own section in the article and summarised in the lead. HiLo48 (talk) 23:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Clarity on name change
Based on recent edits which I had to revert, it would be good to summarize.
- The name of the overall organization will officially change from "Boy Scouts of America" to "Scouting America" in 2025. But they are informally starting to use the new name now.
- The name of the flagship program within the organization (roughly speaking the main one serving 11-15 year olds, technically approx 10-18) changed from "Boy Scouts" to "Scouts BSA" in 2019 and there is no additional change to this announced and they specifically said that the announced change does not affect this.
IMO we should not move/rename the article until new name change is official in 2025.
Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
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