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==Comments== == It changed ==
Coat of arms pic in article has changed. Is it correct? Name suggests it's a vatican coa rather than the arms of the holy see. --]<sup><font style="background: #0000" face="Ariel" color="#00AA00">]</font></sup>] 07:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


(set to become the norm on 7 June 2023) has the inside of the tiara in grey, not in red. ] (]) 05:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
:I just reverted it to the red shield version, since it's the official blazon according to . ] 07:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


== Requested undo of move == == Seal of the Vatican ==


i added the seal since it basically borrows elements from the coat of arms
{{Requested move/dated|Coat of arms of Vatican City}}
also can someone link the seal on the actual vatican page to this section ] (]) 21:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


:This article is not about the seal, so I have removed your additions. There is no WP page for the seal. ] (]) 22:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
] → {{no redirect|1=Coat of arms of Vatican City}} – The illustrated coat of arms has been officially declared to be the coat-of-arms (in Italian, ''stemma'') of Vatican City State. Sources deny that it is the Holy See's coat-of-arms.
::You know this is hogwash
::The coat of arms page of brazil has the seal el salvadore has the seal why cant vatican city ] (]) 10:18, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
:::Correction they dont ] (]) 11:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


== Coats of arms of the Holy See and of Vatican City? ==
What was presented as grounds for moving this article from "Coat of arms of the State of Vatican City" to "Coat of arms of the Holy See" was the ''heading'' "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City" in an English-language that does ''not'' state that the two are identical. which is presumably the original, speaks of the "coat of arms" (''stemma'') of Vatican City, but with regard to the Holy See speaks instead of its ''emblema'' (emblem). Both the English translation and the original Italian give two distinct illustrations, of which it can be reasonably presumed that the first concerns the Holy See and the second the Vatican City State. The first is displayed merely as an emblem, not on a shield as a coat of arms. While the Fundamental Law of Vatican City State of 2001 (which on this point repeated that of 1929) is a reliable source of the highest order for the statement that the coat of arms illustrated on that site and described in this Misplaced Pages article is the official coat of arms ''of the state'', the source adduced gives no valid grounds for claiming that this coat of arms is also that of the Holy See - even less that Misplaced Pages should present it as ''principally'' the coat of arms of the Holy See.


What source states the coat of arms of the Holy See is the coat of arms of Vatican City? Why are the two coats of arms grouped together? According to , the coat of arms of the Holy See has its two ropes hanging in the middle, while the coat of arms of Vatican City has its two ropes split with one hanging at the end of each key (one on the right, one on the left). Furthermore, all other WP articles are about the coat of arms of Vatican City.
Another explicitly distinguishes between the two: "L’emblema della Santa Sede Apostolica e quello dello Stato della città del Vaticano non coincidono, essendo il primo il simbolo dell’ufficio del Romano Pontefice, capo della Chiesa Cattolica Romana, mentre il secondo è il simbolo proprio dell’entità politica e amministrativa. Anche se gli elementi caratteristici di entrambi sono le chiavi e la tiara papale (l’emblema della Santa Sede però non è inserito in uno scudo)." In English, "The emblem of the Holy Apostolic See and that of the Vatican City State are not identical, since the former is the symbol of the office of the Bishop of Rome, Head of the Roman Catholic Church, while the latter is the symbol proper to the political and administrative entity. Although the elements that characterize both are the keys and the papal tiara (the emblem of the Holy See is, however, not placed within a shield)."


I will split this article into two, one ] and the other ]. ] (]) 07:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
Another is more concise: "Hat der Heilige (Apostolische) Stuhl ein Wappen? Nein, aber ein Emblem" (Has the Holy (Apostolic) See a coat of arms? No, but it has an emblem). And it gives as source for its statement the German version of the very source that the mover of the Misplaced Pages article gave as grounds for making the move! It also criticizes as "heraldisch falsch" (heraldically wrong) the use of the emblem of the Holy See (without shield) on the button of the uniform of the Vatican City gendarmes: "Hier müsste das Staatswappen stehen" (Here there should be the coat of arms of the state).


:Split done. ] (]) 09:08, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
That the coat of arms illustrated is that of Vatican City is clear. That it is the coat of arms of the Holy See as claimed in the renamed article is, to say the least, disputed. The move was wrong. ] (]) 11:12, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


== "]" listed at ] ==
:The English article is titled "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City", the title itself states they are one and the same by the use of ''and'', especially since the article goes on to show but one coat of arms ''and'' one blazon, not two distinct and separate descriptions. The Italian article's title is different, yes, but the Italian article the goes on to describe only one coat of arms. The other articles you listed do differ from the Vatican's article, but those articles are not official. We should defer to the official article by the official source. ] (]) 17:09, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
]
::That is only your personal interpretation of what the English article means. The Italian article, as you rightly say, gives only one coat of arms (as does the English article) and speaks only of a coat of arms of Vatican City, not of the Holy See, while also giving an emblem (as, for some reason that you fail to explain, does the English article) and speaking only of an emblem of the Holy See, not of Vatican City State. The Italian article is, I would think, more not less official, than the English translation. More official still is article 20 of the Fundamental Law of the Vatican City State, which describes the coat of arms illustrated in the other sources as the coat of arms ''of the state'' (surely an official indication of the proper title for the Misplaced Pages article) with no suggestion that it is also the coat of arms of any other entity. The other cited sources that you wish to ignore are not primary official sources, but they are, in Misplaced Pages terms, reliable secondary sources; and they explicitly state (no question of personal interpretation here) that the Holy See has no coat of arms but has an emblem. ] (]) 20:01, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 25#Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
:::I am not interpreting the article, I merely quoted the title. The title disagrees with your assessment without needing any further interpretation. But if the title is not enough, there is further proof that ''both'' entities share the same arms--there is only ''one coat of arms'' being discussed in the article.
:::And the English article is official, because it is an official press release from the Vatican's Press Office. No where does the Vatican state one language is "more official" than another, so no, the Italian article is not better or more accurate in any way. Even so, the Italian article only discusses one coat of arms as well.
:::Secondary sources are fine, yes, but if a primary official source contradicts it then that makes those secondary sources unreliable.
:::Oh, and that Fundamental Law that describes the State of Vatican City’s arms wouldn’t mention the Holy See because because the Laws of the political entity have no bearing of the religious entity, so it is not surprising that there is no assigning of the See’s arms in the State’s laws. In any instance, the Fundamental Laws do not provide any facts to back up your argument, nr any information pertinent to this discussion, so it is only a distraction to even bring it up. ] (]) 06:31, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
::::Hello. Just commenting my experience in ]. The Vatican is old fashioned and it works in Italian, not in English. The Italian version is always the original version, the others are just translations. The translations are sometimes incomplete, and the meaning of some sentences may be slightly changed from the original. In case of disagreement, the Italian version is always the correct one.


== This is not the correct COA of the Holy See according to Vatican website. ==
::::And a comment on sources. A press release is edited by the persons in charge of PR, it is very focused in immediate events, it may quote incorrectly other sources, or it may quote only the parts that support the press release. In my book there always low-quality sources. And they can't be edited after release to fix errors. When a press release disagrees with an article on the official website, the article should be given preference. --] (]) 10:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::Thank you, Enric Naval. Another indication of the non-authoritative character of such press releases is the statement in the English release that "the shield is surmounted by the tiara" - like the mitre above the escutcheon of the personal arms of Pope Benedict XVI or the tiara above those of his predecessors. This is quite evidently mistaken. The Italian text rightly says that ''the keys'' are surmounted by the tiara.
:::::To the comment by Bellae artes that the Italian press release "only discusses one coat of arms", should be added: "which it identifies as that of the Vatican City State and does not attribute to the Holy See".
:::::The coat of arms illustrated is certainly that of Vatican City State. Not even one ''reliable'' source claims it is also that of the Holy See. The Wikipedias in all the other languages call the illustrated coat of arms that of Vatican City, not of the Holy See. We are surely not going to say that they are all out of step except our English Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 11:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


The coat of arms of the Holy See, on the , is a lot different from the one on this Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 14:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
::::::The language of the Vatican ''is not'' Italian, it is Latin. If we are going on the non-authoritaveness of press releases as an argument to exclude the official English press release, why are you, Esoglou, quoting an the Italian press release as a source? Even if official press releases have minor errors in them (both the English and Italian versions do), they are still official and hold more weight than un-official website. So again, it is improper to somehow attribute the Italian press release as the supreme authority and use it to dismiss the English because that argument could easily be turned around to dismiss the Italian release.
:{{done}} I agree. There is literally no source supporting at all. ] (]) 17:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

::"There is literally no source supporting the previous "version" at all": what do you mean?
::::::Esoglou, I do not understand your issue with this, so let me try to break this down for you. The Italian press release is titled "Emblema della Santa Sede e Stemma dello Stato della Città del Vaticano", please not the use of the word "e", but goes on to describe only ''one'' emblem. So that makes that one device the emblem of the Holy See ''and'' the Vatican State. To back this up, the English version is titled "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City", please not the use of the word "and", but also goes on to describe ''one'' coat of arms. This, again, means that both the Holy See and Vatican State are represented by the one coat of arms described in the article. The press releases in every language go on to describe one device, and each time label it the device of the Holy See and Vatican State; they are one and the same.
::On the Vatican website, there is "Coat of Arms ''of the Holy See''" and "Coat of Arms ''of the State of Vatican City''".

::The coat of arms of the Vatican is supported by the
::::::Also, what another Misplaced Pages does has no bearing here. Most other Wikipedias mirrored the English version, copying the titles and crudely translating the articles to help expand the article counts on other Wikipedias. So copying the title of this article over to other languages is hardly a reason to leave it as is. Also, Misplaced Pages can't be cited as a source on Misplaced Pages. Do you not know how Misplaced Pages creates the content of its articles? So you should understand that simply because you see it on Misplaced Pages doesn't make it true, and for that reason a person can't cite what he wrote in one artilce as evidence for what he writes in another article on Misplaced Pages.
::] (]) 17:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

::::::Find a source from the Vatican that contradicts the Vatican's press release. Until then, the official stance from the Vatican is that the coat of arms of the Vatican State and the emblem used by the Holy See are one and the same device. ] (]) 01:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC) :::Ah, you were both right. I got confused with ], I did not realise which WP page I was on. Sorry! ] (]) 17:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Strange that you still give more trust to your personal interpretation of a press release so inaccurate that it cannot even rightly describe the escutcheon, than you give to an accurate document of the Press Office of the Holy See, which speaks of two distinct things, for each of which it provides an illustration: the "emblem of the Holy See" (which it nowhere describes as an emblem of Vatican City State) ''and'' (you rightly stress that "and") the "coat of arms of Vatican City State" (which it nowhere describes as a coat of arms of the Holy See)! Two distinct things, the emblem of the Holy See and the coat of arms of Vatican City State, as stated also by other reliable sources. The accurate press release, as you remark, "goes on to describe only ''one'' emblem" (which it calls the emblem of the Holy See), and it also goes on to describe only one coat of arms (which it calls the coat of arms of Vatican City State). Are you for some reason imagining that the heading is "Emblema e stemma sia della Santa Sede che dello Stato della Città del Vaticano" (Emblem and coat of arms both of the Holy See and of Vatican City State"? That is not the heading. It's "1) Emblema della Santa Sede; e (note this word ''e'') 2) Stemma dello Stato della Città del Vaticano". Misplaced Pages must follow what is explicitly stated in a number of reliable sources, not what one demonstrably unreliable source is taken to mean. ] (]) 11:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


==Disputed==
The present version of the article is based on an interpretation by Bellae artes of a page of a website, seen as declaring that that the coat of arms of Vatican City State as also the coat of arms of the Holy See, and a supposition by Bellae artes that the coat of arms in question existed before the foundation of Vatican City State and was that of the Holy See. Other sources disagree. ] (]) 09:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

:(I put two pictures in the article. The keys are reversed in the coats, so we need two different images, or one image where both coats appear). --] (]) 09:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
:I could only find this "When what is represented is the Holy See, not Vatican City State, the keys are reversed. Rather, when the state was set up in 1929, the keys in the arms of the Holy See, with the gold one in dexter position, were reversed to provide a distinctive symbol for the new entity." --] (]) 09:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
:There is a long book , but it's in Italian. Can someone check it? --] (]) 09:56, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
::I'm afraid that the www.crwflags site, being a wiki, does not count here as a reliable source. The book you mentioned begins on page 319 to speak of the Holy See, but in terms of papal ''flags'' (the coat of arms of the United Kingdom is very different from its flag) and in terms of the use of the "insignia" of Rome (the papal city). On page 324 it begins to speak of the ''Church'' of Rome, but again with regard to its "insignia". Then on page 329 it begins to speak of the "coats of arms" (''stemmi'') of the Popes. In short it gives information on the evolution of the insignia (if you wish, the "emblem") of the Holy See and the use of these insignia on the coats of arms of various entities, but it nowhere illustrates a coat of arms of the Holy See. ] (]) 11:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Most books I have on heraldry seem to gloss over the matter; they may refer to the Vatican State but then do not mention the Holy See, or vice versa. I believe this arises from the complex issue of what exactly is the Vatican State in relation to the Holy See, and how separate they really are. The idea of reversed colours for oneand another propably come from the papal arms which have the keys reversed from the State's arms. It was likely assumed one pattern for the holy, one for the secular. This is what was written on Misplaced Pages without sources, and this is what seems to have spread across the Internet, now coming back to Misplaced Pages full circle.

When going to the websites, the Holy See seems to prefer to use the keys and tiara without a shield and the Vatican State seems to prefer to use the keys and tiara with a shield. This is a more recent trend, for the Holy See exised in a heraldically rich environment centuries before the Vatican State was created. It is worth mentioning, but in the sense that the trend has been recent and the arms pre-date the State. ] (]) 22:19, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
:You mean, the website of the Holy See uses only its insignia (the emblem) of tiara and crossed keys, and the Vatican State uses only the coat of arms of the tiara and crossed keys on a red field. The essential point is that the coat of arms was created for the Vatican City State by the law of 7 June 1929 and that, although the Holy See existed "in a heraldically rich environment" for centuries, there is not a scrap of evidence of the existence of that coat of arms before 1929. ] (]) 09:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
::Page 337 at , in the third row far right we have the "scudo della Santa Sede nel XV secolo", or "shield of the Holy See in the 15th century", which shows a pair of crossed keeys and papal tiara. ] (]) 18:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Bravo. The book you refer to is that already indicated by Enric Naval. The author seems to have interpreted that design as a 15th-century coat of arms of the Holy See. There is no indication of the colour of the field. So we have a source that says the Holy See had a coat of arms in the 1400s. I have failed to find in the book any indication that the author holds that the Holy See has a coat of arms at present. Perhaps you will prove me wrong. So now we have one source that says the Holy See had a coat of arms half a millennium ago. We have another source, a clearly inaccurate page, that speaks of "coat of arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City", which you interpret as saying that the two entities share the same coat of arms, and which you extend to mean that the one coat of arms illustrated is principally that of the Holy See and only secondarily that of Vatican City State. On the other hand, we have a page without obvious inaccuracies also issued by the Press Office of the Holy See which speaks of a coat of arms of Vatican City State and in the same context attributes to the Holy See only an emblem. We have also two secondary sources that explicitly, without any need of interpretation, say that the Holy See has no coat of arms (now), only an emblem, something that seems to be borne out by the website of the Holy See, which presents only what the Press Office calls the emblem of the Holy See and does not call an emblem of Vatican City State, while the website of Vatican City State presents what the Press Office calls, both in Italian and in English, the coat of arms of Vatican City State and, at least in a certain interpretation of its English version, the coat of arms also of the Holy See. It seems to me that the weight of evidence favours the view that the Holy See has no coat of arms now, especially in consideration of that "Misplaced Pages articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources". ] (]) 19:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

From a Catholic source, ''Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopaedia'':
"The coat-of-arms of the Holy See is a '''red shield''' ensigned with the papal tiara over crossed gold and silver keys."

From a heraldry source, ''A treatise on ecclesiastical heraldry'':
"A carved stone shield dated 1337 in the Palazzo dei Consoli at Gubbio is particularly interesting, as it retains traces of its colouring, the keys being white and the '''field red'''. From this time on cases of shields with the crossed keys, generally tied, are fairly frequent."

"Froissar, in his Chronicles referring to the events of the year 1383, is the first to blazon the arms of the Church, faisait Vevesque de Mordwich porter devant lui les armes de I'Eglise, la banniere de St. Pierre, '''de gueules''' a deux clefs d'argent en sautoir, comme Gonfanonnier du Pape Urbain."

"The colours of this coat have varied a good deal. The '''field is almost always red''', occasionally blue. At first the keys are white, then comes a time when gold keys are found, and finally the present usage of placing a gold key in bend across a silver one in bend sinister slowly makes its way. A banner of the Church de panno rubeo cum clavibus Ecclesiae Romanae is referred to at Benevento in 1331; in 1337 we have the painted stone shield at Gubbio already mentioned, and '''red banners''' and hangings with white or silver crossed keys, sometimes tied gold, appear in the crusading scene in the miniatures of the Statutes of the Neapolitan Order of the Holy Ghost (1352)."

"A '''red shield''' bearing two white crossed keys, and surmounted by the tiara, is to be seen in a window of the cathedral of Bourges accompanying the achievements of the anti-popes Clement VII and Benedict XIII, and other examples of these tinctures are to be found in manuscripts dating from the time of the former of these anti-popes and from that of Nicholas V, in a series of shields painted on the ceiling formerly in the church of San Simone at Spoleto (ca. 1400), in the 15th-century glass in the cathedrals of York and of Carpentras, in various 15th-century books of arms both English, German, and Italian, as well as in Martin Schrot's book of arms which is as late as 1581."

"The final development in the tinctures of the papal keys shows a gold key lying in bend over a silver key in bend sinister, ''although the relative positions are sometimes reversed.''"

"In the later Urbino manuscripts in the Vatican Library, such as Dante (about 1600), and the life of Francesco-Maria della Rovere (after 1605), the keys are regularly gold and silver. From this time on, at any rate where the keys appear in a shield, these tinctures seem to be thoroughly established. '''Variations from the use of the red field for the papal arms are rare.'''"

Therefore, I tend to agree with Bellae artes. ] (]) 22:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

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It changed

The new version (set to become the norm on 7 June 2023) has the inside of the tiara in grey, not in red. Veverve (talk) 05:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Seal of the Vatican

i added the seal since it basically borrows elements from the coat of arms also can someone link the seal on the actual vatican page to this section Skunkcrew (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is not about the seal, so I have removed your additions. There is no WP page for the seal. Veverve (talk) 22:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
You know this is hogwash
The coat of arms page of brazil has the seal el salvadore has the seal why cant vatican city Skunkcrew (talk) 10:18, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Correction they dont Skunkcrew (talk) 11:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Coats of arms of the Holy See and of Vatican City?

What source states the coat of arms of the Holy See is the coat of arms of Vatican City? Why are the two coats of arms grouped together? According to this official document, the coat of arms of the Holy See has its two ropes hanging in the middle, while the coat of arms of Vatican City has its two ropes split with one hanging at the end of each key (one on the right, one on the left). Furthermore, all other WP articles are about the coat of arms of Vatican City.

I will split this article into two, one Coat of arms of the Holy See and the other Coat of arms of Vatican City. Veverve (talk) 07:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Split done. Veverve (talk) 09:08, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

"Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 25 § Coats of arms of the Holy See and Vatican City until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not the correct COA of the Holy See according to Vatican website.

The coat of arms of the Holy See, on the Vatican's official website, is a lot different from the one on this Misplaced Pages page. EXANXC (talk) 14:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done I agree. There is literally no source supporting the previous "version" at all. Greenknight dv (talk) 17:21, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
"There is literally no source supporting the previous "version" at all": what do you mean?
On the Vatican website, there is "Coat of Arms of the Holy See" and "Coat of Arms of the State of Vatican City".
The coat of arms of the Vatican is supported by the in the AAS supplement, pp. 1063 of the PDF
Veverve (talk) 17:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Ah, you were both right. I got confused with Coat of arms of Vatican City, I did not realise which WP page I was on. Sorry! Veverve (talk) 17:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
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