Misplaced Pages

Talk:Antifeminism: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 15:33, 7 May 2006 edit67.170.245.1 (talk) →"For instance violent bullies often bring up violent bullies."← Previous edit Latest revision as of 05:16, 26 December 2024 edit undoSangdeboeuf (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users53,219 edits →top: Chapter URL 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|search=yes}}
==Article name==
{{controversial}}
Shouldn't this article be at ]? ] 09:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
{{Not a forum|antifeminism, feminism, antifeminists or feminists}}
:Yes. ] 01:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|1=
Odd how feminist minded wiki users have objected to the neutrality of this article, but not to the neutrality of feminism - could it be a simple case of blatant bias? {{unsigned|Karlmathews}}
{{WikiProject Gender studies|class=|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Feminism|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Sociology|class=|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Anthropology|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Religion|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}}
{{WikiProject Conservatism|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Women's History|importance=Low}}
}}
{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo = old(90d)
| archive = Talk:Antifeminism/Archive %(counter)d
| counter = 8
| maxarchivesize = 100K
| archiveheader = {{Aan}}
| minthreadstoarchive = 1
| minthreadsleft = 3
}}
{{Refideas
| {{cite book |editor1-last=Ging |editor1-first=Debbie |editor2-last=Siapera |editor2-first=Eugenia |title=Gender Hate Online: Understanding the New Anti-Feminism |date=2019 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-319-96226-9 |doi=10.1007/978-3-319-96226-9 |url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/book/10.1007/978-3-319-96226-9 |url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last1=O’Donnell |first1=Jessica |title=Gamergate and Anti-Feminism in the Digital Age |date=2022 |publisher=Palgrave Macmillan |location=Cham |isbn=978-3-031-14057-0 |pages=109–138 |doi=10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_4 |chapter=The Militaristic Discourse of Anti-feminism |chapter-url=https://link-springer-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-14057-0_4 |chapter-url-access=registration |via=]}}
| {{cite book |last1=Ribieras |first1=Amélie |editor1-last=Carian |editor1-first=Emily K. |editor2-last=DiBranco |editor2-first=Alex |editor3-last=Ebin |editor3-first=Chelsea |title=Male Supremacism in the United States: From Patriarchal Traditionalism to Misogynist Incels and the Alt-Right |series=Routledge Studies in Fascism and the Far Right |date=2022 <!--|edition=1st--> |publisher=Routledge |location=London |isbn=978-1-0005-7622-1 |pages=67–93 |doi=10.4324/9781003164722 |chapter='I Want to Thank My Husband Fred for Letting Me Come Here,' or Phyllis Schlafly's Opportunistic Defense of Gender Hierarchy}}
}}
__TOC__


== Excessive United States perspective ==
::The neutrailty of feminism? Feminism is about women, period, and is biased in everything it writes, says, advocates and does. Normally this bias is expressed as simple misandry, although it is often hidden in postmodernistic rhetoric. Here are a few feminist slogans.


I've just removed several references to US antifeminism for UNDUE. Looking through this article, I think it definitely skews to a US-centric perspective, although feminism is a global issue. <span style="color:#ef5224">]</span> (]) 12:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
::If they can send one man to the moon why can't they send em all?


== Men's rights movement ==
::The best man for the job is a woman.


This has been inserted and removed and re-inserted in the lead; it probably ''should'' be covered in the article body, if only in a summary-style section linking to ], but it currently isn't. It'd be easy enough to cover - just a little bit summarizing ], with a toplink to that article. But where should it be placed in this article's structure? As a top-level subsection? Or does it fit into one of the existing subsections? -- ] (]) 21:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
::Neutrality? It's not to be found and where present is seen as sexism against women and attacked.


:The men's rights movement was placed in the 21st century section so it is in the body, although I'm also not sure exactly where it should go because it originated in the 20th century. —<span style="font-family:Poppins, Helvetica, Sans-serif;">]</span> ] 22:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
==Criticism of an antifeminist argument does not automatically make the critic a feminist==
::Well, we could always move it to the 20th century. If we did that we might add a sentence about how it started in the 70's as a generally pro-feminist men's liberation movement and then split into pro- and anti-feminist strands (which is covered in the history section of its own article.) --] (]) 03:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Just as John Winthrop's opposition to Anabaptism on its anti-intellectual groundings didn't make John Winthrop an intellectual. ] 17:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Yep that sounds like a good idea. —<span style="font-family:Poppins, Helvetica, Sans-serif;">]</span> ] 05:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)


== Feminism infobox ==
== Some points of potential interest. ==


In the feminism infobox in this article, in the sub-section "Opposition to feminism", I believe the "Pro-feminism" and "Protofeminism" do not belong there. Those are clearly pro feminist topics and not about opposition to the movement. I would edit it myself, but wanted to check first here if I'm missing something. I also don't know how to edit the infobox! It somehow appears fully empty for me. ] (]) 15:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Article needs some major meat IMHO.


:I believe that "Opposition to feminism" is bolded not because it is a section header but because it redirects to Antifeminism. Compare to the infobox on <nowiki>]</nowiki> ] ] 17:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I encourage editing some lines.

"Anti-feminist groups particularly point to the dramatic increase in the divorce rate and breakdown of the family since the rise of feminism, and note that crime statistics, teenage pregnancy, and drug abuse are all higher among children of fatherless homes . Their critics point out that correlation does not imply causation, that anti-feminist groups fail to consider social factors besides feminism, that social ills faced by children without fathers can also be the result of the father's decisions, and that feminism is not to blame for role models and gender roles that predate it.”

I'd argue that "critics point out..." should be changed to "critics argue...". There are strong statements of fact here that fail to account for potential responses of the antifeminists, particularly the claim about them FAILING to consider social factors. They may very well have taken them into account, but this article, as it is, will leave you in the dark.

"Antifeminists are fond of reports that conclude the Violence Against Women Act hurts men and does little to help women. (Let the Violence Against Women Act Expire Charlotte Allen)"

Again, while referring to the VAWA may be common among antifeminists, it is somewhat suspect to say that they are "fond of" such reports. After all, this research is believed to prove injustice, and while pointing out injustice may be a blast, this section could equally well be interpreted to say that antifeminists like to know that the VAWA supposedly hurts men.

So, it should read more like this; "Antifeminists often point to/have pointed to..." or so, if they indeed discuss that, in such depth.
--] 21:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

: Those seem like reasonable edits to make. ] and make them yourself! ] 05:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason I mentioned those is to make it easier for others to spot inaccuracies and/or controversial presentations. --] 18:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

== "For instance violent bullies often bring up violent bullies." ==

This doesn't make sense in the context of "social ills faced by children without fathers can also be the result of the father's decisions." All this "bullying" stuff added by <s>]</s> ]just sounds bizarre. And Adolf Hitler??? ] 03:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

:It makes as much sense as this...

:<i>Many anti feminist groups are just attention seeking bullies who want to put forward deliberately offensive viewpoints to hurt the feelings of decent people.</i>

:If feminists get to write the anti-feminist article, perhaps anti-feminists should write the feminist article?
:] 17:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Rich

::This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you're a feminist or an anti-feminist. Feminists and anti-feminists alike may edit any article they please, as long as they conform with the ] policy and other Misplaced Pages policies. As a feminist and someone who believes in the important of Misplaced Pages presenting a neutral point of view, I removed this text. You could have done the same yourself. ] 19:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

:::First off, feminism is not neutrality, and it never was.

:::Secondly, I'm still kinda new to this and still learning how editing works on Wiki. I'm one step past observer but am not sure I want to edit articles yet. Perhaps soon.

:::Thanks for removing the text. But if you don't see it as something a feminist would say about anti-feminism and not something which describes anti-feminism or the reasons behind it, there's not much I can say. Do feminists call women "whiners"? Not that I've ever seen. Feminists do spend an inordinate amount of time and effert calling any man with issues a whiner, I know this from direct experience. Feminism is clearly not about equal treatment, as feminism itself does not treat men and women equally.

:::] 22:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)Rich

All of the "bullies" material was added by the same user, ] (look at the history of the page to see who added what). So, you're right, both quotes make the same sense, i.e., none. As for who gets to write the articles, the answer is, everyone does. If you're suggesting that a feminist is unable to write a neutral article on anti-feminism, I'd have to disagree. Everyone has a POV, but it needn't show up in the article. —01:11, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

:<i>If you're suggesting that a feminist is unable to write a neutral article on anti-feminism, I'd have to disagree.</i>

:I'd say that there is an inherent bias that makes objectivity implausable, at best. Feminism has claimed the victim high ground (and made it pay), so even admitting that men are victims (usually of policies crafted with or by feminism) would be giving up the bias feminism has built against men in the name of political favoritism.

:There are many examples, look at the Duluth model, or the Violence Against Women Act, penned by feminism.

:If I get the time, I may start adding to the article, there's no shortage of material.

:] 13:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC)Rich

Latest revision as of 05:16, 26 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Antifeminism article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 3 months 
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about antifeminism, feminism, antifeminists or feminists. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about antifeminism, feminism, antifeminists or feminists at the Reference desk.
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconGender studies Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
To-do list:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
WikiProject iconFeminism Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Feminism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Feminism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconSociology Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconAnthropology Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconReligion Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Misplaced Pages's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconLaw Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconConservatism Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconPolitics Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconWomen's History Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Excessive United States perspective

I've just removed several references to US antifeminism for UNDUE. Looking through this article, I think it definitely skews to a US-centric perspective, although feminism is a global issue. BrigadierG (talk) 12:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Men's rights movement

This has been inserted and removed and re-inserted in the lead; it probably should be covered in the article body, if only in a summary-style section linking to Men's rights movement, but it currently isn't. It'd be easy enough to cover - just a little bit summarizing Men's_rights_movement#Antifeminism, with a toplink to that article. But where should it be placed in this article's structure? As a top-level subsection? Or does it fit into one of the existing subsections? -- Aquillion (talk) 21:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The men's rights movement was placed in the 21st century section so it is in the body, although I'm also not sure exactly where it should go because it originated in the 20th century. —Panamitsu (talk) 22:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Well, we could always move it to the 20th century. If we did that we might add a sentence about how it started in the 70's as a generally pro-feminist men's liberation movement and then split into pro- and anti-feminist strands (which is covered in the history section of its own article.) --Aquillion (talk) 03:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Yep that sounds like a good idea. —Panamitsu (talk) 05:24, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Feminism infobox

In the feminism infobox in this article, in the sub-section "Opposition to feminism", I believe the "Pro-feminism" and "Protofeminism" do not belong there. Those are clearly pro feminist topics and not about opposition to the movement. I would edit it myself, but wanted to check first here if I'm missing something. I also don't know how to edit the infobox! It somehow appears fully empty for me. DuxCoverture (talk) 15:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I believe that "Opposition to feminism" is bolded not because it is a section header but because it redirects to Antifeminism. Compare to the infobox on ] EvergreenFir (talk) 17:58, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Categories: