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Revision as of 05:41, 27 November 2012 editFalcadore (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers43,123 edits →Numbers and the team and driver table: found the location of the consensus← Previous edit Latest revision as of 13:57, 1 February 2024 edit undoCyberwolf (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers5,845 edits Assessment: banner shell, Formula One (Rater) 
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== Ma Qinghua ==

Please do not list Ma Qinghua as a driver for HRT. Although a source is supplied, we cannot actually verify it for the time being. The only English-language source I can find on this is Joe Saward's blog (which I personally feel fails ] after his attacks on Vijay Mallya in the past), and even that only refers to "reports in China". We need an English translation to be sure, or if there is an established editor out there who is fluent in Mandarin and can confirm that the source is reliable. Given the time differences, I can understand why this might not have appeared on the likes of Autosport just yet. There is no need to rush to add Ma to the article, and if you have any concerns, you can rest assured that he will be added in the moment a reliable source is found.

As per convetion established by consensus, any reference to Ma joining HRT should contain quotes from Ma himself or someone who a member of the team and who is named (ie Luis Perez-Sala). ] (]) 10:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

== Entry Fees ==

I noticed a small problem with the cost of entry, 1pt is quoted as being worth USD$5,000 or EUR€3,895 which 1/100 of the basic entry fee. The problem occurs when USD$6,000 is quoted as being less the USD$5,000 at EUR€3,674. I would change it but I'm not sure which exchange rate is right or if it you would want to update it using figures from today.] (]) 11:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:The FIA work in euros not dollars, so the exchange rates should of been calculated the other way round, likely to be the reason whoever added that in made a mistake. Going into that much detail is probably unnecessary anyway. ] (]) 12:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::The source supplied makes it pretty clear that from 2012, the entry fee will be paid in dollars, not Euros. ] (]) 21:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

== HRT in 2013 ==

Should HRT be in the 2013 entry list? I thought they where leaving. ] 11:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

:As ever, speculation has no place here. If/when they actually say they are withdrawing HRT will be removed from the list. ] (]) 12:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

::I doubt there's any chance of the team leaving F1 altogether. It's for sale, but I'm sure it won't disappear. If and when it's sold, we can change the team name accordingly. ] (]) 20:35, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Daniels, you've been editing long enough to know that content cannot be added or removed without a valid source to support it. If HRT were leaving and had confirmed it, then it would have been reported by now. ] (]) 21:49, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

== Television Coverage ==

The existing piece states, mistakenly, that the 2013 season will be covered by Fox. In fact, Speed is part of Fox Sports. The 2013 season will be the first of a four year deal with NBC Sports Group. Proposed rewrite below.

For the first time in seventeen years, will not be covering any of the Formula One races. Instead, will be the sole provider of television coverage of F1 in the US.--] (]) 04:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

:As a rule, we don't cover changes in broadcasters. They don't affect the season as a whole. We did mention the switch from the BBC to Sky in the 2012 season page, but only because that represented a significant change in the broadcasting structure. ] (]) 07:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

== Numbers and the team and driver table ==

Please do not add numbers to the team and driver table, or rearrange the entries to reflect the final championship standings of 2012. As per a long-standing consensus established at the ], the team and driver table should remain in alphabetical order (first by constructor name, then by driver name for each constructor) until the FIA publishes an entry list or 2013, which will assign numbers to cars. ] (]) 07:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
:Hi PM, as a point of reference, and to reduce the likelihood of duplicated discussion, can you substantiate your claim with a link to the precise discussion which resulted in that consensus please. ] (]) 07:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::The FIA issues F1 race numbers ], not the editors of Misplaced Pages. So have they done it yet? --] (]) 07:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Hi Falcadore, but that wasn't what I was asking about. Can you throw any light on the whereabouts of the consensus to which PM was referring? ] (]) 18:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::::]. Does that assist? --] (]) 05:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
::Can you not question every time someone claims there is a past consensus? We're not simply making things up. Unless there are references for the numbers, it is original research because the basis is pure assumption, even if it is an educated assumption. If you have no references for the numbers, they aren't posted. Simple as that. ] (]) 08:16, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Hi The359, if a consensus is cited, then a link should be provided so that interested parties can examine the context of it and the judge strength of it. I'm not particularly interested in the numbers for the 2013 season, but I would be ''very'' interested in reading the "long-standing consensus" which mandates that "the team and driver table should remain in alphabetical order (first by constructor name, then by driver name for each constructor) until the FIA publishes an entry list or 2013". ] (]) 18:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::::If the consensus can be explained in two sentences and there is no one objecting, then no, there is no need to find the specifics of the previous debate, nor is there any particular reason to "judge the strength of it", which really seems to be another way of calling into question the original consensus like I mentioned before. If you're so interested in reading it, you find it. ] (]) 19:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::And if the numbers aren't posted, how can you rearrange the table in any way? Yes, the alternative is based on championship standings, but how can you prove that all 12 teams will continue to exist as they currently are three months from now when the 2013 season begins? What if, for example, Force India is sold on 1 February 2013, missing the date for entries to be received and therefore relegating the team to the number 24 and 25 (which is precisely what happened to Brawn GP in 2009)?


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
::Without numbers, the table cannot be rearranged. This is an issue that shouldn't ''need'' a consensus, because simple common sense should apply. However, I made this discussion as a reference for reverting changes to the page from IP addresses and/or new users who are unfamiliar with the editing process. And given your history, showing you a previous discussion in which a consensus was achieved will do no good, because you will find a way to try and undermine it. Even when the consensus is for the betterment of the page. So, if you are looking to change the way the table is constructed, then please, make your argument; but until such time as you do, you should consider my comments and those of Falcadore and The359 to be a preliminary consensus in favour of keeping the table un-numbered and in alphabetical order. If you are looking to change the way the table is constructed, then please, answer me this: what on earth are you doing questioning it? ] (]) 08:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


I have just added archive links to {{plural:25|one external link|25 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
:::I agree; keep it as it is until it's official. (BTW - I do believe it also happened to Sauber in 2009/2010 season change). ] (]) 17:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.
::::Yes, I think it happened to Sauber as well (though as I remember, USF1, Campos, Manor and Sauber were all accepted to the grid together and all given their choice of numbers from those that were vailable). I was only using Brawn as an example because it was the first example that came to mind. ] (]) 00:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


{{sourcecheck|checked=true}}
:::PM, I had no intention of modifying the table, but I am ''very'' interested in locating and understanding WP:F1 consensuses. It was you who claimed there was a "long-standing consensus" which mandates that "the team and driver table should remain in alphabetical order (first by constructor name, then by driver name for each constructor) until the FIA publishes an entry list or 2013". Presumably you weren't just bluffing - so where exactly is it? ] (]) 18:49, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::Even mentioning the fact that one could be bluffing makes your entire argument bullshit. ]. Calling into question whether or not someone is making shit up is uncalled for, and you're already on thin ice. ] (]) 19:40, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::::I can't put my hands on it exactly, but it was formed in late 2008 or late 2009. I remember it well because The359 convinced me to change my mind on the subject. ] (]) 21:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:::::I don't recall specifics but I remember the debate centered on teams deciding who their #1 driver was, and people arbitrarily deciding that one driver should get the lower number instead of the other driver. There have however been instances of teams not giving their top driver the first number, as in the case of Honda, when Button allowed Barrichello to have the number 11 as it was good luck to him or something, while Button took 12. Then, even though Honda had been given 18 and 19 for their finishing position in 2009, Brawn took the numbers 22 and 23 after buying out the team. So simply put, Vettel has #1, everything else is crystal balling. And we're not going to put a column just to add Vettel as 1 because that will just invite stupidity. ] (]) 21:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 04:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
::::::If I remember rightly, the major point you talked me around on was updating the team and driver table to reflect WCC positions from race to race. ] (]) 00:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


== Misleading sentence ==
Rather than debating the existence of the consensus, why don't we spend the time establishing/confirming the consensus, for future reference. ] (]) 23:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


The article have the following sentence:
'''Proposal:''' The "Teams and Drivers" tables of future F1 season articles should remain in alphabetical order on constructor name, with no "car number" column, until the official provisional entry list is published by the FIA.
{|class=wikitable
|'''Support''' || DH85868993, Bretonbanquet, Prisonermonkeys, Bosleytree
|-
|'''Oppose''' ||
|}


"''With Michael Schumacher and Pedro de la Rosa no longer in the sport, the 2013 season was the first in which none of the field had competed in the 20th century."''
:I don't see anyone objecting to it at the moment, so it seems fairly clear that a consensus exists. Again. ] (]) 23:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
::(e/c) Why the fuck we still have to explain '''everything''' we do to Eff Won or face endless timewasting, I have no idea. This, like all the other occasions, is a total non-starter. I care little for where the old consensus is or was – this discussion constitutes a consensus already because, yet again, Eff Won is alone. ] (]) 23:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
:::Because the alternative is chaos when Eff Won denies that there is any such consensus and starts reverting all edits until such time as we can prove that a previous consensus exists. Which we won't be able to, because Eff Won will deny that whatever evidence we provide is a consensus because it was obtained fraudulently or some such. I'm keep to avoid that. ] (]) 00:10, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
::::You're right. I object to being required to AGF concerning an editor who spends their time doing nothing of the sort, challenging several editors to produce a consensus which is self-evident. ] (]) 00:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


Which is not true since the 20th century technically ended in Dec 31, 2000 and not Dec 31, 1999 as commonly thought, and Jenson Button, who start racing in 2000, was still on the grid until 2016 (and making a one-off appearance in 2017 Monaco Grand Prix). So my suggestion is or remove the line entirely, or move to 2018 F1 Season or correct it stating no driver on the field have competed before 2000. ] (]) 23:57, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
:::::Just think: every time we AGF and he doesn't, it's another nail in his coffin. ] (]) 02:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
:I'm removing the line on the grounds of ] <br/>] (]) 11:21, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
:It was also ] <br/>] (]) 11:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

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Misleading sentence

The article have the following sentence:

"With Michael Schumacher and Pedro de la Rosa no longer in the sport, the 2013 season was the first in which none of the field had competed in the 20th century."

Which is not true since the 20th century technically ended in Dec 31, 2000 and not Dec 31, 1999 as commonly thought, and Jenson Button, who start racing in 2000, was still on the grid until 2016 (and making a one-off appearance in 2017 Monaco Grand Prix). So my suggestion is or remove the line entirely, or move to 2018 F1 Season or correct it stating no driver on the field have competed before 2000. 201.22.236.229 (talk) 23:57, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm removing the line on the grounds of WP:FANCRUFT
SSSB (talk) 11:21, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
It was also WP:UNSOURCED
SSSB (talk) 11:23, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
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