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==Someone copying someone?==
There's a lot of similarity between this text and , but I can't tell who's cribbing off of whom; that external page appears to have been published one day ''after'' the most recent edit to this article. So I'm not going to call this a copyvio at this time, but I am going to leave this note here on talk: for future reference. ] 06:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

==baby dragons==
This has been tagged as uncited in the text. I added some further explanation, but I'm not entirely happy with the way this fits into the context. If somebody has a better idea about where this can be incorporated, feel free to move the text around. Anyway, to clarify the claim: yes, they were believed to be baby dragons for a long time, and for an unfortunate period after the caves started opening up for public about two hundred years ago, olms were even sought out and killed by superstitious locals. Given that the caves where they live aren't exactly overcrowded with them and that these critters take a *long* time to procreate, there was even a time when they were in serious danger of extinction because of this. ] 14:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

: Olms were described as baby dragons by ], Slovenian noble, historian, geographer, etc., in ] (1689). It was a reference to a folk story he didn't quite believe in. I'm preparing a lengthy article to better describe this creature than the current, where this will surely be mentioned. --], ] 10:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

== Something lost in translation? ==

"This is due to some of the larval characteristics, such as external gills and elongated body, which they retain as adults." The only thing I can understand "This" to mean is that the olm is wholly aquatic. Now "The olm is wholly aquatic due to some of the larval characteristics, such as external gills and elongated body, which they retain as adults" does not make sense to me. I can't figure out what else "This" would mean or on the other hand what is the more correct word to replace "due to". I suspect "due to" is an error in translation but I cannot be sure what would be correct here.--<i><font color="#9966FF">]</font><font color="#CC99CC" size="2">SB</font></i> 21:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

: Causality can be problematic when you talk about biological systems... I know the sentence is a bit weak. Actually I meant to say something like "the olm lives the whole life underwater, and has such and such features that enable it", but wasn't able to phrase it decently without implying causality (is the non-native speaker argument too old already?). After all, we don't know whether the need for fully aquatic life came first in the evolution and the olm eventually got pedomorphic, or was it vice versa. This actually isn't mentioned explicitly in the original article, it's just because the intro needed expansion. --] 05:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

::Yes my problem was with the implied causality. The rewrite is much better, but what do you think about "The adults retain some of the larval characteristics, such as external gills, which are advantageous in an aquatic habitat."--<i><font color="#9966FF">]</font><font color="#CC99CC" size="2">SB</font></i> 13:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Not sure, since they aren't just advantageous, but (at least in the case of gills) necessary. I say we leave it as it is. --] 18:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

== Did anyone else notice this? ==

After establishing that the olm has no sense of sight, the article suggests that males put on courtship displays against rival males. That raises an obvious (IMO) question that the article should perhaps address: What would be the point of a display when the animals can't see it?] 03:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

==Refs==
*{{cite journal
| id = PMID3233487
| journal = Brain Behav Evol
| year = 1988
| volume = 32
| issue = 5
| pages = 277-280
| title = Behavioral evidence and supporting electrophysiological observations for electroreception in the blind cave salamander, Proteus anguinus (Urodela).
| author =Roth A, Schlegel P.}}
*{{cite journal
| title = Some evidence for the ampullary organs in the European cave salamander Proteus anguinus (Urodela, Amphibia)
| journal = Journal Cell and Tissue Research
| issue = 2
| volume = 235
| year = 1984
|doi = 10.1007/BF00217865
| pages = 393-402
| author =Lili Istenič, Boris Bulog}}

== Today's featured article ==

Well, are we going to make a move towards it? ''''']]''''' <sup>]</sup> 01:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

: Erm... sorry for ignorance, but how is it done? --] 05:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

::I can do it if you'd like, since I've done it before. You go to ] and go to "Main Page Requests" on the bar to the right. You can also request a specific date for it to appear. ''''']]''''' <sup>]</sup> 19:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

:::No prob, I did it myself. I just didn't know you had to do the request separately. --] 07:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Why does the genus Proteus link to the myth, not more members of the genus? ] 00:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

:::::Because the mythological figure is the namesake of the genus. You can go to the disambiguation page to see more pages that may have the name "Proteus." ''''']]''''' <small>]</small> 01:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

==Why is Olm capitalized?==

All throughout the article, ''olm'' is capitalized. I'm curious as to why. Asking, rather than just making the change, as I'm not too keen on editing a featured article. -] 02:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, why is that? Shocking to see it make featured article with this glaring unconformity to style. -- ] 08:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

==Lifespan?==
It would seem that these creatures live for an long time for an amphibian but this article is missing references to it's average, expected, or maximum lifespan. ] 02:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


Boris Bl

Longevity is estimated at up to 58 years (Noellert, A.; Noellert, C. (1992). Die Aphibien Europas. Franckh-Kosmos Verlags-GmbH & co, Stuttgart. ).
Individual specimens have been kept under semi-natural conditions in concrete basins for up to 70 years (Prof. B. Bulog, personal communication). <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 12:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


=="The only European cave-dwelling chordate" ?== =="The only European cave-dwelling chordate" ?==
Line 109: Line 45:
:::::Other than this bare fact, I don't know what more can be said about the issue, so I'm not sure where can we put it without it looking out of place. — ] <sup>]</sup> 20:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC) :::::Other than this bare fact, I don't know what more can be said about the issue, so I'm not sure where can we put it without it looking out of place. — ] <sup>]</sup> 20:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


== Copyright/plagarism issue that needs to be corrected immediately ==
==Serbian==
Is correct? - ] 12:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
* Orthography is questionable. The correct spelling might be "човечија" or "човечја" - or both. http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-ec/%D0%A7%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%87%D1%98%D0%B0_%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


I nocticed that "Sensory organs" and its subsections are copied almost word for word from . Someone needs to re-paraphrased this. ] (]) 01:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
== The name "olm". ==


:The AmphibiaWeb's author, Boris Bulog, is ] who contributed this section of the article, so there's no copyvio. — ] <sup>]</sup> 07:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
I think the name "olm" should be explained. What is its etymology? The article discusses other names for it but I couldn't find anything on the name "olm". If anyone knows, please include it in the article. ] 12:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
::Jerry is correct. Unless the source is under a free license (which it's not), then this is a copyright violation–it doesn't matter if the author is the same. ] (]) 07:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


:::AmphibiaWeb is not the source, but a separate publication of the same content from the same author that he chose to license differently. I understand if it seems suspicious to people not familiar with the issue, so I can ask him to provide an OTRS grant. — ] <sup>]</sup> 07:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
: I haven't found anything on the etymology so far, but it might have something to do with the mythological figure of the feathered/plumed serpent in ]. That wouldn't have been the first time that olm's gills were mistaken for wings (see ]. --] 13:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


::::Please do so. ] (]) 19:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
::Cheers! It seems a bit far-fetched, I have to say, though I can't offer a better explanation. Keep looking and I'll see what I can dig up too! ] 07:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


::: BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the Olmec themselves gave this name to Proteus (that would indeed have been far-fetched, as it doesn't live on that side of the ocean), only maybe some zoologist that got the association. --] 13:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC) :::::He agreed to send the mail to permissions-en; I'll post the {{tl|OTRS-pending}} template when I get the word that he did it. — ] <sup>]</sup> 13:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


::::::{{done}} ] -- ] (]) 10:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
::::Ha, ha, no, I got that too! What I meant was, it's odd to think that the name of this animal should have come from a culture on another continent that had nothing to do with it. But as you say, someone may have made that connection. Still, it would be nice to know for sure...] 06:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


== pigmentation consistency == == FAR Notice ==


I'm planning on taking this nomination to FAR but before I do that I want to mention the issues I see on the talk page. The only issues I see on it are the citation needed tags on the different sections on the page. As such it currently fail 1.c of the criteria for Featured Articles. ] 02:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Para. 2: "The olm's eyes have atrophied, leaving it blind, while its other senses, particularly those of smell and hearing, are acute. '''It also has no skin pigmentation'''."


:Please wait until next week before doing that. Most of the CNs concern really minor details (which is why they've been ignored) and I'll fix the issues by then. — ] <sup>]</sup> 07:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Para. 3: "Its body is covered by a thin layer of '''skin, which contains very little of the pigment riboflavin''', making it yellowish-white or pink in color."


== Is the Olm native to Bosnia? ==
Which is it? ] ] 15:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


The article seems a little unclear as to whether the Olm is native to ]. Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to make that somewhat clearer? ] (]) 19:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
== Whatdoe sit eat? ==
:How is it unclear? The lead says it in the most straightforward manner and there is a file showing the range. ] (]) 19:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
::Here's Devon Karst Soc. project page for Bosnian --]] 05:24, 13 July 2022 (UTC)


== ] ==
Lol I couldn't find the answer. It looks like a endoparasite but I haven't heard of any such amphibians. So what is it? Carnivore, herbivore...] 20:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:To quote from the article itself, "It is a predatory animal, feeding on small crabs, snails and occasionally insects." ''''']]''''' <small>]</small> 20:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


:: Thanks. ] 20:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

== Larval characteristics ==

"This is possibly because of, or perhaps the reason for, their retention of ]l characteristics (like external ]s) into adulthood." I removed this sentence because there is no reference, but left the information abut its external gills in. "Even breeding" underwater is that unusual in an amphibian? I replaced "atrophied" with "underdeveloped" or "undeveloped" because "atrophy" is used to describe the destruction of an organ by disease, not a vestigial organ. It is used like that sometimes, but it is better like this. The karst links to an article called Karst topography. It is an area of karst topography, but the animals live where the rainfall over the ages has created caves, fissures and similar areas underground. (] (]) 03:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC))

== Croatian and serbian name ==

I don't see the need for the serbian and croatian names to be stated, since the species is, as far as I know, endemic to Slovenia. The names are simply translations and by this logic we could pop a translation in every language into the article. ] (]) 14:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

:The species's habitat area extends from ] to ]. Read the article. --] <sup>]</sup> 10:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

== Some small changes proposed ==

I would like to propose some small changes:

Introduction, 2nd paragraph:
“''...like the American amphibians, the axolotl and the mud puppy.''”
I propose to change this into “''...like the American amphibians axolotl and mud puppy.''” since the present formulation can be understood as axolotl and mud puppy being the only American amphibians.

Anatomy: Mechano- and electroreceptors, 1st paragraph:
“''(Bulog, personal observ.)''”
I think this needs some reference?

Ecology and life history, 2nd paragraph:
“''The tadpoles are 2 centimetres...''”
I think the term ‘tadpoles’ is normally only used for the very different young specimens of frogs and toads? I suggest using the word ‘larvae’ here, even if this means using this word several times in only a few sentences.

I also second the (quite old) above sections:

1) "Did anyone else notice this?"
Obviously, the display isn’t visual. But what kind of display do they use then? Do they make sounds, do they circle around each other, something else?

2) "pigmentation consistency"
After some years, this inconsistency is still there. I don’t have the books, so I don’t know what to keep and what to change.

] (]) 00:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Tadpole is accepted for any amphibian. For the 'display' stuff, I think it is a matter of territorial battles rather than strictly a display, with the territory controlled by one contributing to mating success, or perhaps some pheromone stuff? Display is probably not the ideal word, but is generally what is used for any sort of ritual mating stuff. As far as the pigment stuff, I'm pretty sure it just has low levels of pigment, don't have any sources on that though :P ] (]) 18:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

== Copyright/plagarism issue that needs to be corrected immediately ==

I nocticed that "Sensory organs" and its subsections are copied almost word for word from . Someone needs to re-paraphrased this. ] (]) 01:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

:The AmphibiaWeb's author, Boris Bulog, is ] who contributed this section of the article, so there's no copyvio. — ] <sup>]</sup> 07:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
::Jerry is correct. Unless the source is under a free license (which it's not), then this is a copyright violation–it doesn't matter if the author is the same. ] (]) 07:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


I am reviewing this (old or very old) FA as part of ], an effort to determine whether old ] still meet the ]. There is considerable uncited and unattributed text in the article, so I am listing it at ]. ] (]) 13:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
:::AmphibiaWeb is not the source, but a separate publication of the same content from the same author that he chose to license differently. — ] <sup>]</sup> 07:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
== "]" listed at ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 10#Proteus bavaricus}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 12:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 09:05, 26 September 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Olm article.
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Former featured articleOlm is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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"The only European cave-dwelling chordate" ?

Chordata is the phylum that includes all mammals, amphibians, reptiles, etc. It's very hard to believe that there are no European cave bats, cave bears, etc.

I think that the author responsible for that statement means "the only European cave-dwelling caudate" - the order of salamanders and such. Anybody know what's right here? Peter Delmonte 04:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I second that. Fish are chordates also and there are plenty of cave-dwelling fish. Eregli bob 04:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The statement "the only European cave-dwelling chordate" is correct, if you take "cave-dwelling" to mean "troglobite" (as the link also suggests). Cave bats, cave bears and cave fish are all fine, but they aren't troglobites, since they don't live their entire lives underground. Troglophiles or trogloxenes yes, troglobites, no. This page provides some definitions. And no, there's no troglobite fish in Europe. I reverted the statement accordingly. --Yerpo 12:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice if someone came up with a citation for this - there's no other mention of it in the article, so it's unreferenced. Allens (talk | contribs) 16:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I can't remember the original reference. Is AmphibiaWeb considered reliable enough? It says "Proteus is the only cave-adapted vertebrate in Europe" under Comments, which is only slightly more specific. — Yerpo 18:54, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I would think AmphibiaWeb would be considered sufficiently reliable. (Of course, said page also notes that it's possible it actually is multiple species... it'd be greatly preferable for someone to write a review article including that, of course!) At this point, what is needed is the placement of the info (regarding vertebrates) somewhere in the article other than the lead, with the citation. Allens (talk | contribs) 20:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Other than this bare fact, I don't know what more can be said about the issue, so I'm not sure where can we put it without it looking out of place. — Yerpo 20:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Copyright/plagarism issue that needs to be corrected immediately

I nocticed that "Sensory organs" and its subsections are copied almost word for word from AmphibiaWeb. Someone needs to re-paraphrased this. LittleJerry (talk) 01:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The AmphibiaWeb's author, Boris Bulog, is User:BORIS BL who contributed this section of the article, so there's no copyvio. — Yerpo 07:25, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Jerry is correct. Unless the source is under a free license (which it's not), then this is a copyright violation–it doesn't matter if the author is the same. Sasata (talk) 07:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
AmphibiaWeb is not the source, but a separate publication of the same content from the same author that he chose to license differently. I understand if it seems suspicious to people not familiar with the issue, so I can ask him to provide an OTRS grant. — Yerpo 07:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Please do so. LittleJerry (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
He agreed to send the mail to permissions-en; I'll post the {{OTRS-pending}} template when I get the word that he did it. — Yerpo 13:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 Done ticket:2013010410008182 -- KTC (talk) 10:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

FAR Notice

I'm planning on taking this nomination to FAR but before I do that I want to mention the issues I see on the talk page. The only issues I see on it are the citation needed tags on the different sections on the page. As such it currently fail 1.c of the criteria for Featured Articles. GamerPro64 02:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Please wait until next week before doing that. Most of the CNs concern really minor details (which is why they've been ignored) and I'll fix the issues by then. — Yerpo 07:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Is the Olm native to Bosnia?

The article seems a little unclear as to whether the Olm is native to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to make that somewhat clearer? Maximajorian Viridio (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

How is it unclear? The lead says it in the most straightforward manner and there is a file showing the range. Surtsicna (talk) 19:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Here's Devon Karst Soc. project page for Bosnian "Proteus Project"--౪ Santa ౪ 05:24, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020

I am reviewing this (old or very old) FA as part of WP:URFA/2020, an effort to determine whether old featured articles still meet the featured article criteria. There is considerable uncited and unattributed text in the article, so I am listing it at WP:FARGIVEN. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:44, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

"Proteus bavaricus" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Proteus bavaricus has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 10 § Proteus bavaricus until a consensus is reached. Qwv (talk) 12:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

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