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	== ~~The~~ ~~Gheg vocative~~ ==		== Inherited roots ==
			The section "Historical presence and location" contrasts native words with borrowed loan words of foreign origin, when the more natural comparison would be native words versus commonly inherited ones, since it is an IE language just like Italic Celtic Germanic etc

	I noticed on the grammar section that a statement is made that the vocative is rare in Albanian. I think that they mean it is rare in the Tosk dialect, but in a number of Geg Albanian varieties it is distinct to the nominative, although a form identical to it can also be used. for example: consider the word ''djal'', 'boy', which is nominative indefinite. A father could call his son "djalo" or "djala", dependent on dialect.--] (]) 00:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

	I've never heard the "djala". The "Djalo" is also in the Tosk dialect with the particle "o" :-" O djalë". The particle "o" is placed before the noun or with the forms ending in -o. "O djalë" and "djalo" are the same. There are a lot of other forms such as: "or djalë", "ore djalë", "more djalë", "moj vajzë", etc. The "moj" has nothing to do with "moy" of Russian. "moj" could be called every girl,or woman and has the same function that the particles "o", "or", "more", "ere" have
	] (]) 06:07, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

	I'm sorry, but I have to correct you; -o is the Tosk Albanian vocative (it could be Gheg as well, I do not know) that didn't enter the standard language and now is only dialectal. Much like old locative case -ët. Senshi 01:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC) <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

⚫	== ~~Proto-~~Albanian, ~~Proto~~-Slavic ~~possible relation~~ ==

	By the Lithuanian Research & Studies Center http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm Has references, notes, seems OK to me. It's just a hypothesis, should it be added to the (Old) Albanian section? ] (]) 00:34, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

	]] (]) 05:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

	The view that Slavic languages are Balticized Albanian languages is so weird and fringe. It should not enter here. Read wiki policies on that. ] (]) 09:01, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

	:I understand it looks weird (and I agree), but it's neutral , at least it's not something that either forcefully pushes Albanians to Illyrians. The author has been credited before in this page http://en.wikipedia.org/Ruki_sound_law . Also the http://en.wikipedia.org/Lithuanian_encyclopedias have been credited as well The sound shifts are explained here http://www.lituanus.org/2003/03_3_07.htm . So it shouldn't be here? Should it be in another page then? Just asking, don't start flaming. ] (]) 02:46, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
	::I am not entering in the Illyrians or whatever ancestral debate. Just out of curiosity if you read this author he does believe that the .
	::I am speaking about the overwhelming consensus among linguists that Slavic languages are family on their own and do not derive from Albanian language. In fact the general consensus is Balto-Slavic composes a single language group (see ] article). What this guy is proposing is very fringe and contradicts with core PIE linguistic general knowledge. Also what he is proposing is considered racist see what he says in the same article (in the link above) ''"..My experience with certain "scholars" has shown that it will be easier, though not much easier, to get acceptance for my definition here of "Baits" than of "Carpathians". Here "Baits" include Prussians, Latvians, and Lithuanians in the broad sense of Baits proper (including Selonians, Curonians, etc.) and Baits by extension, Dacians and Thracians, all of whom I once called "Baltoidics", that is, peoples who have spoken some Baltoidic language (see Mayer, 1992). Here "Carpathians" include not only "Albanoidics" that is, peoples whom I have previously designated as having spoken some "Albanoidic" language (see Mayer, 1992) equally designatable as "Slavoidic" (see Mayer, 1995), that is, Albanians, Illyrians, Messapians, and Slavs, but also Rumanians. Essentially, '''I believe that Baits in this larger sense in early times had a certain dominance over the Carpathians. This explains why the ancestors of the Rumanians so quickly and thoroughly Romanized. It was political. It was to gain Roman protection against former Baltic masters'''...''. Romanians embraced Latin to escape from Baltic masters?! Apart from the total fringe and pseudoscience issues, that view is a little bit off the line of a normal linguist and enters into a political and racist agenda, as such it should not enter in this article. Anyway if you are really interested this author personal views, might enter into an article about him. Regards ] (]) 09:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
⚫	::: ~~That's~~ ~~seems~~ ~~fair.~~ I ~~guess~~ ~~there's~~ ~~nothing~~ to do ~~here~~ ~~anymore~~ ] (]) 03:04, 7 September ~~2012~~ (UTC)

	== Spelling-to-sound: ‹r› ==		== Spelling-to-sound: ‹r› ==
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	Shouldn't ‹r› actually be {{IPA\|/ɽ/}}? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.		Shouldn't ‹r› actually be {{IPA\|/ɽ/}}? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.

			== Spelling-to-sound <gj> and q==
	== Unnecessary? ==

			Shouldn't it be changed to voiced and voiceless palatal affricates respectively?
	This is mentioned in the section Gothic Loans:
	"''The earliest accepted document in the Albanian language is from the 15th century AD. The earliest reference to a Lingua Albanesca is from a 1285 document of Ragusa. This is a time when Albanian Principalities start to be mentioned and expand inside and outside the Byzantine Empire. It is assumed that Greek and Balkan Latin (which was the ancestor of Romanian and other Balkan Romance languages), would exert a great influence on Albanian. Examples of words borrowed from Latin: qytet < civitas (city), qiell < caelum (sky), mik < amicus (friend).
	''After the Slavs arrived in the Balkans, the Slavic languages became an additional source of loanwords. The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Surprisingly the Persian words seem to have been absorbed the most. Some loanwords from Modern Greek also exist especially in the south of Albania. A lot of the borrowed words have been resubstituted from Albanian rooted words or modern Latinized (international) words''"
	I don't know how this has something to do with Gothic loans. Also some information given seems to contradict the sourced information in the rest of the page. Another thing is the Persian words part. I don't seem to find that anywhere and I've checked.] (]) 19:44, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

			== Albanian stops are unaspirated ==
	------
	Good point, but as I'm not fit to answer it I just wanted to bring forth that one commonly used albanian word I think is derived from persian is the "xhenaze". <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:27, 5 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	: Meaning? Sorry but I've never heard of it. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			http://mudrac.ffzg.unizg.hr/~rmatasov/Albanian.pdf That means the english examples should be changed. /p/ is not pronounced like in 'pen', but like in 'spin'.
	== <Q> and <Gj> ? ==

			== e and o are higher than the table shows, almost same level or higher than ë ==
	They don't sound like voiceless/voiced palatal plosives, but more like voiceless/voiced alveolo-palatal affricates to me. Can anybody confirm? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 03:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

			http://www.kfs.oeaw.ac.at/publications/2003_moosmueller_granser_the_vowels_of_standard_albanian.pdf
	:The one time I listened to Albanian examples, I could not hear a difference between the pairs q/ç and gj/xh. That means one of two things: the speaker in question did not distinguish them, or a difference exists but somehow I couldn't hear it. That would pretty much have to mean (a) the recording was bad, and (b) the sounds are indeed alveopalatal not palatal. I would suspect that the speaker didn't distinguish them at all, probably not the speaker you heard either. ] (]) 07:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
	::Indeed. See the note I added. The ref's abstract at least can be found online. ] (]) 07:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

		⚫	== Albanian Is a Balto-Slavic Language ==
	::: I read somewhere that Luciano Canepari called them voiced/voiceless palatal affricates, but I can't find the original source. There is the difference between gj/xh , ç/q but not the ones described in the main page. ] (]) 22:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

			{{Archive top
	:::: There may be a difference for you, but clearly not for all speakers. That's what the reference unambiguously says. ] (]) 05:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			\|status = ]

			\|result = Also: ]. ] (]) 19:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
	== h4, here we go again ==
			}}
			If carefully studied the Albanian language and the Balto-Slvavic languages share the same roots. Linguists in Albania are more interested in politics than language studies. Only a few linguists study Ukrainian, Russian, Belorussian, Bulgarian, Polish, Serbo-Croat and Albanian at the same time. If all these languages were carefully studied the only objective conclusion that could be derived from it is that the Albanian language is a branch of Slavic languages. ] (]) 02:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

			:Albanian is part of, but a separate branch of, the Indo-European family.
	Sorry, but almost no Indo-Europeanist accepts the existence of h4 these days. So the claim that "h4 produced h" or whatever can't be allowed to stand without '''major''' hedging. Note also that even in one of the few sources accepting this laryngeal, it does '''not''' say that "h4 produced h". It says "a few people claim that h4 produced h" which is way different.
			:* "Albanian forms a separate branch of Indo-European and cannot conclusively be closely connected with any other Indo-European language." {{endash}} https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/albol
			:* "...several innovations define Albanian and set it apart from all other branches of IE..." {{endash}} https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/indoeuropean-language-family/albanian/235881199CF63D7E9D60E32DA7362DD9
			:* "Albanian (shqip or gjuha shqipe in the language) is an Indo-European language and the only remaining language to represent the old Albanoid branch of Indo-European languages." {{endash}} https://u.osu.edu/discoveringalbania/language/
			:]'''\|'''] 02:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
			::Citations from linguist who specialize on a different area of language and heavily based on what is usually cited by the Albanian linguists who get very angry if something that does not confirm their theories is presented. These citations do not even mention the fact that 70% of Gheg Albanian words who are based in the Slavic languages have been wiped out of the Albanian language since Tosk became the standard language such as mir (Slavic), mirë (Albanian), good (English); kone (Slavic), kene (Gheg Albanian), qene (Tosk Albanian), be (English); bogatu (Slavic), banu gati (Gheg Albanian), behu gati (Tosk Albanian) get ready (English); plujc (Slavic), prush (Gheg Albanian), zjarr (Tosk Albanian), fire (English). This whole page can be filled with similarities but there is no point of including all of them here. If Slavic languages and Albanian were seriously and objectively studied the conclusion would clearly be that the entire grammatical structure and dictionary of the Albanian language is rooted in Slavic. The similarities are so astonishing that there is no other explanation. ] (]) 03:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::] Misplaced Pages does not work via Original Research. Also im not a slavic speaker but at least i know that Slavic Good it means Dobro not Mir. Mir means Peace so here it goes also the POV pushing and Non Reliable Sourcing.] (]) 09:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
			::::Language is language and the Albanians similar to Serbs have the tendency to comingle language with politics. For example, Serbs similar to Albanians claim that the Serbian language has nothing in common with the Croatian language, which in fact is not true it is very similar. They do that for political reasons. The same with the Albanian linguists, they fail to see the resemblance that exists between the Slavic languages and the Albanian language because they believe that somehow it helps them politically by identifying the Albanian language as unique in the midst of other languages when in fact it is not unique but is rooted in the Balto-Slavic languages. The fact is that the Balto-Slavic is the nearest kin of the Albanian language. Objectively speaking there is no dispute about that. Take the alphabet, for example, in addition to the similarity in vocabulary, as clearly seen in my previous comment, the Albanian alphabet has letters that are unique only to the Slavic languages despite the heavy modifications done to the original Albanian alphabet and the introduction of ë since Tosk became the standard Albanian. Despite all of that there are still letters that are unique only to the Slavic and Albanian languages, such as gj(Ð), sh(Š), c(ts), zh(Ž), q (tsh), nj. Just because a letter, for example, is written as gj instead of (Ð) it does not make it different. It is the same letter. ] (]) 15:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
			:::::How about "rrotkari" translate that to slavic. ] (]) 11:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
		⚫	:Explains why nearly every Messapic word has a cognate in Albanian. 2/10 ragebait. ] (]) 17:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
			{{Archive bottom}}

			== Mešari ==
	Furthermore, I ''know'' that the claim that k', k and kw all have separate reflexes in Albanian is '''highly''' disputed. Plenty of Indo-Europeanists (though not the consensus) doubt that there even was a k separate from k' and kw, and the claim about a triple reflex in Albanian is not generally cited even by those (e.g. Ringe) who explicitly defend the triple PIE series and explicitly cite the Luvian triple reflex. The times I've seen this claim about Albanian, like the previous one, it's usually described as doubtful or unproven. ] (]) 07:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

			Mešari which is supposedly the first recorded in the "Albanian" language is entirely based in Latin. "Unë" in "Albanian", uno in Italian, one in English ]. Pagëzoj in "Albanian", baptismo in Italian, baptize in English ]. Emër in "Albanian", nome in Italian, name in English etc. etc. etc. etc. So, it makes no sense to include the entire translation of Mešari here but clearly the "Albanian" language is not unique but a mix of Latin, Slavic, Greek, and Turkish languages. ] (]) 03:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
	:I don't think so. Usually the case for three series of velars comes from Albanian and Luwian. For those Indoeuropean linguists who know Albanian that is a proven case. But there are some difficulties in getting wide approval by other linguists (who don't know Albanian) as described by Fortson, (see below). However most agree that Albanian shows three series of velars, (just make a Google check on it):
	:#''The traditional tripartition of the 'gutturals'—into palatals (k', g', (k'h), g'h), velars (k, g, (kh), gh), and labiovelars (kw, g”, (kwh), g'”h)—is based on the data from Albanian, which is the only language to have three distinct series of reflexes...''The New Sound of Indo-European: Essays in Phonological Reconstruction Volumul 41 din Trends in Linguistics. Studies and Monographs Editor Theo VennemannEditor Walter de Gruyter, 1989 ISBN 3110857340, 9783110857344 page 184
	:#''The Proto-Albanian velars retained an important tertiary opposition-that of "pure" velars, palatal velars and labiovelars (the later are differentiated from other velars before front vowels but merge with pure velars elsewhere). In this sense, the proto-Albanian sustem of occlusives supports thge Luwian evidence that Proto-Indo-European possesed three distinct velar oppositions....''A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language: Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian Author Vladimir Ė. Orel Editor BRILL, 2000 ISBN 9004116478, 9789004116474 page 66
	:#''Due to the existence of remnants of all three original dorsal consonant series of the proto- language, i.e. palatals, velars, and labiovelars, Albanian can also be claimed to belong to a separate third group of Indo-European...'' Mood in the Languages of Europe Author Björn Rothstein, Rolf Thieroff Editor Björn Rothstein, Rolf Thieroff Editor John Benjamins Publishing, 2010 ISBN 9027205876, 9789027205872 page 447
	:#''The preservation of a triple reflex of the PIE velar series is accepted by most Albanologists, but have never been fully embraced by general Indo-Europeanists. The reasons are understandable: asside form the near absence of any branch that uncontroversially preserves reflexes of all three series, Albanians is not attested until very late and a great deal of its anterior history has been obscured, with often very few examples of e given sound change surviving. However the examples in this case are not beset with too many difficulties - their etymologies and morphology are for the most part non-controversial - and the evidence for three velar series series in Albanian is not much vorse than the evidence in Luvian. As with so many disputes however where the evidence is not absolutely overhelming, the matter may never be definitively settled to everyone's satisfaction'' Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction Blackwell Textbooks in Linguistics Author Benjamin W. Fortson, IV Editor John Wiley & Sons, 2011 ISBN 1444359681, 9781444359688 page 450

			:I agree. The "Albanian" language is a very beautiful language, and the reason why it is a very beautiful language is because it is a mixed language and traces of Latin, Slavic, Greek and Turkish can be found in it, not because it is unique. ] (]) 04:11, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
	:For more technical discussion of series of velars in Albanian, you can see Pedersen, Jokl, Hamp, Kortlandt etc.] (]) 11:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
			::I don't understand the point you're trying to make, and I think you don't know either. Your behavior exhibits signs of self-talking. Perhaps stop edit-warring on this article.
			::Also, unë does not mean "one" in Albanian, but "I". Words can seem as Latin as they want to be, still, Alb. "katër" (4) independently evolved from PIE *kʷétur- without Latin influence (quattuor). Also, it's named "Meshari" not "Mesâri". Your statements lack existence and usage of high-quality sources in academic scholarship.
			::Thanks. ] (]) 19:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

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Inherited roots

The section "Historical presence and location" contrasts native words with borrowed loan words of foreign origin, when the more natural comparison would be native words versus commonly inherited ones, since it is an IE language just like Italic Celtic Germanic etc

Spelling-to-sound: ‹r›

Shouldn't ‹r› actually be /ɽ/? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.

Spelling-to-sound: ‹r›

Shouldn't ‹r› actually be /ɽ/? It does not sound like an alveolar tap, but like a retroflex flap.

Spelling-to-sound <gj> and q_and_q">

Shouldn't it be changed to voiced and voiceless palatal affricates respectively?

Albanian stops are unaspirated

http://mudrac.ffzg.unizg.hr/~rmatasov/Albanian.pdf That means the english examples should be changed. /p/ is not pronounced like in 'pen', but like in 'spin'.

e and o are higher than the table shows, almost same level or higher than ë

http://www.kfs.oeaw.ac.at/publications/2003_moosmueller_granser_the_vowels_of_standard_albanian.pdf

Albanian Is a Balto-Slavic Language

WP:NOTFORUM Also: WP:DFTT. Austronesier (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If carefully studied the Albanian language and the Balto-Slvavic languages share the same roots. Linguists in Albania are more interested in politics than language studies. Only a few linguists study Ukrainian, Russian, Belorussian, Bulgarian, Polish, Serbo-Croat and Albanian at the same time. If all these languages were carefully studied the only objective conclusion that could be derived from it is that the Albanian language is a branch of Slavic languages. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:5179:180A:4CB4:2AF8 (talk) 02:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Albanian is part of, but a separate branch of, the Indo-European family.

"Albanian forms a separate branch of Indo-European and cannot conclusively be closely connected with any other Indo-European language." – https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/albol
"...several innovations define Albanian and set it apart from all other branches of IE..." – https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/indoeuropean-language-family/albanian/235881199CF63D7E9D60E32DA7362DD9
"Albanian (shqip or gjuha shqipe in the language) is an Indo-European language and the only remaining language to represent the old Albanoid branch of Indo-European languages." – https://u.osu.edu/discoveringalbania/language/

Snowman304|talk 02:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Citations from linguist who specialize on a different area of language and heavily based on what is usually cited by the Albanian linguists who get very angry if something that does not confirm their theories is presented. These citations do not even mention the fact that 70% of Gheg Albanian words who are based in the Slavic languages have been wiped out of the Albanian language since Tosk became the standard language such as mir (Slavic), mirë (Albanian), good (English); kone (Slavic), kene (Gheg Albanian), qene (Tosk Albanian), be (English); bogatu (Slavic), banu gati (Gheg Albanian), behu gati (Tosk Albanian) get ready (English); plujc (Slavic), prush (Gheg Albanian), zjarr (Tosk Albanian), fire (English). This whole page can be filled with similarities but there is no point of including all of them here. If Slavic languages and Albanian were seriously and objectively studied the conclusion would clearly be that the entire grammatical structure and dictionary of the Albanian language is rooted in Slavic. The similarities are so astonishing that there is no other explanation. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:5179:180A:4CB4:2AF8 (talk) 03:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:OR Misplaced Pages does not work via Original Research. Also im not a slavic speaker but at least i know that Slavic Good it means Dobro not Mir. Mir means Peace so here it goes also the POV pushing and Non Reliable Sourcing.RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 09:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Language is language and the Albanians similar to Serbs have the tendency to comingle language with politics. For example, Serbs similar to Albanians claim that the Serbian language has nothing in common with the Croatian language, which in fact is not true it is very similar. They do that for political reasons. The same with the Albanian linguists, they fail to see the resemblance that exists between the Slavic languages and the Albanian language because they believe that somehow it helps them politically by identifying the Albanian language as unique in the midst of other languages when in fact it is not unique but is rooted in the Balto-Slavic languages. The fact is that the Balto-Slavic is the nearest kin of the Albanian language. Objectively speaking there is no dispute about that. Take the alphabet, for example, in addition to the similarity in vocabulary, as clearly seen in my previous comment, the Albanian alphabet has letters that are unique only to the Slavic languages despite the heavy modifications done to the original Albanian alphabet and the introduction of ë since Tosk became the standard Albanian. Despite all of that there are still letters that are unique only to the Slavic and Albanian languages, such as gj(Ð), sh(Š), c(ts), zh(Ž), q (tsh), nj. Just because a letter, for example, is written as gj instead of (Ð) it does not make it different. It is the same letter. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:A4:4E02:F41C:2727 (talk) 15:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

How about "rrotkari" translate that to slavic. 2600:8801:222:C600:3D5C:1290:C41D:1CB7 (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Explains why nearly every Messapic word has a cognate in Albanian. 2/10 ragebait. 141.98.141.192 (talk) 17:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mešari

Mešari which is supposedly the first recorded in the "Albanian" language is entirely based in Latin. "Unë" in "Albanian", uno in Italian, one in English ]. Pagëzoj in "Albanian", baptismo in Italian, baptize in English ]. Emër in "Albanian", nome in Italian, name in English etc. etc. etc. etc. So, it makes no sense to include the entire translation of Mešari here but clearly the "Albanian" language is not unique but a mix of Latin, Slavic, Greek, and Turkish languages. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:B878:7B7B:BAC0:B79A (talk) 03:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The "Albanian" language is a very beautiful language, and the reason why it is a very beautiful language is because it is a mixed language and traces of Latin, Slavic, Greek and Turkish can be found in it, not because it is unique. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:B878:7B7B:BAC0:B79A (talk) 04:11, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the point you're trying to make, and I think you don't know either. Your behavior exhibits signs of self-talking. Perhaps stop edit-warring on this article.

Also, unë does not mean "one" in Albanian, but "I". Words can seem as Latin as they want to be, still, Alb. "katër" (4) independently evolved from PIE *kʷétur- without Latin influence (quattuor). Also, it's named "Meshari" not "Mesâri". Your statements lack existence and usage of high-quality sources in academic scholarship.

Thanks. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

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