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Revision as of 03:08, 5 February 2013 editMiszaBot I (talk | contribs)234,552 editsm Robot: Archiving 10 threads (older than 90d) to Talk:Shusha/Archive 4.← Previous edit Latest revision as of 14:24, 5 April 2024 edit undoGrandmaster (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers25,547 edits Importance of Maintaing Armenian Perspective in this Article 
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== Vereschagin? == == Stop blindly reverts ==


Both {{ping|AntonSamuel}} and {{ping|TagaworShah}} are ignoring ]. What's the point?
The image "Armenian House in Shusha" most likely was not made by Vereschagin, although this looks like graphic produced by him during his visit to Shusha. Yesterday I found this link to Google Books as reference . See page 200, and picture numbered 88 called "An Armenian drawing room." Even if produced by Vereschagin, the description on page 201 says "Armenian drawing house in Soucha." ] (]) 16:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:Must be a mistake. The people on the picture look nothing like Armenians, they are typical Muslim people of the region, in long traditional hats. It is better to find the original drawing by Vereshagin in a Russian source. ]] 18:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:They look very Armenian, in long traditional hats. ] (]) 19:50, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:I doubt that there was such thing as a "(with)drawing room" in Caucasian houses. ] 02:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:Same picture classified as Armenian guest house can be found in Houri Berberian. "Armenians And The Iranian Constitutional Revolution Of 1905-1911: The Love For Freedom Has No Fatherland." Westview Press (January 26, 2001). Thank you for your "opinion," Meowy. Interesting opinions you have sometimes. ] (]) 02:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::In a Russian collection of works by Vereshagin published in 1896 the same picture is titled "Hall in the house of a Tatar in Shusha". You can download the whole book here: It is copyright free, since it was published more than 100 years ago. Figuier clearly made a mistake, since the original source had a different title. Note that Figuier was not the author of the picture, Vereshagin was. Also, the people on the picture look like typical Muslim Turkic people of the region, see for example ]. ]] 08:32, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:::Not convincing. ] could be Armenian bek in Karabakh (Vereshagin did not specify religion or ethnicity and Armenians and Tatars wore similar costumes). Here are Armenian costume and . The download is difficult and is not for free. This does not measure up to facsimile edition that is on Google Book and other publications. Are there are opinions from credible secondary sources saying it was mistaken? How do we know that Figuier was not the author of the picture? His book has dozens of identically made litographs. All of them Vereshagin? I think it is not Vereshagin and there was mistake in Russia made in 1896 by those who confused Figuier's pic with Vereshagin's.(]) 15:27, 28 May 2012 (UTC) ] (]) 15:34, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Why is it not? The bek picture is by Gagarin, the original source says Tatar bek from Karabakh. It was a portrait made during his travels to the region. Your pictures state no source or author. The 1896 book is also from google, it might be available for download in your country. It was written by Vereshagin's biographer. Figuer does not mention the author of the picture, and as far as I know he never traveled to the region. I see no reason why Vereshagin's biographer would ascribe to him paintings that he did not make. If anything, it is more a reliable and expert source than Figuer. Also, there are other Russian books that give the same description of the picture. ]] 17:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::::This is the scan of the same image with description in old Russian: It is hosted on the website of the Russian Ministry of Culture. They know better who the author was. ]] 17:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::It can easily be Russian mistake made 100 years ago by Vereshagin biographer. Figuer's book features his own pics. Armenians and tatars wore similar cloths. Google books does not provide Vereshagin biographer's book. ] (]) 17:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::::::The website of the Russian Ministry of Culture is created by art experts. And no, Figuer's book does not feature his own pictures, there are other Vereshagin's pictures there. ]] 17:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::Luis Figuer was a top scientist of his time. He knew better than modern "art scientists" from Russia. He might known better than Vereschagin himself. ] (]) 17:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:::How could ] know better than the modern and the 19th century Russian art historians? In every collection of Vereshagin's works the image is described as the hall in a Tatar house. It is very unlikely that no one in Russia knows the real name of the work. It is also interesting that Figuer for some reason cropped the picture, cutting out at least one figure, while the Russian reproductions show the entire work. This shows that the image in Figuer's book is not an accurate copy of the original, to which he may have not the access. Also, Vereshagin's picture is from 1865, and not 1873, as claimed in Figuer's book. If he made his picture in 1873, then Vereshagin's picture already existed by that time. ]] 18:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::::I hear you. On balance though we should trust the immediately identifiable Luis Fuguirer in 1873 more than Vereshagin's biographers of 1896. The website LostArt.ru is about controversies and it presents the picture as controversial. It is about lost art and if this pic was lost it is easy to misidentify its author or what it depicts. ] (]) 18:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::Russian sources are also immediately identifiable. Lost or not, the image was clearly by Vereshagin, since Figuier was not an artist, and never traveled to Shusha. Figuier took it from Vereshagin, cropped it, cutting out a large section, and dated it 1873, while Vereshagin's work was created in 1865. Therefore the Russian sources are more trustworthy, since they are written by specialists on the author. That includes experts from the Russian Ministry of Culture. ]] 19:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:::This is all your personal interpretation. Are there reputable secondary sources discussing this controversy and supporting your theory about Figuier's trampling with the image, and/or confirming that it depics Tartars and not Armenians? ] (]) 20:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Why do we need secondary sources for that? By the same token, are there secondary sources that the Russian publications of Vereshagin's works contain wrong titles? ]] 05:46, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


Mistakes listed:
Le Tour du monde, Volumes 19-20, published in 1869, describes the same picture as "Salon d'une maison tatare, a Schoucha", by Vereshchagin: So clearly Figuier made a mistake in his book, which was published 4 years later. I think this resolves the issue. ]] 08:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
* Azerbaijani and Armenian names are in bold (wrong)
:::That makes sense. Although this does not resolve the issue outright, now I am more inclined to believe it is pic showing Tatars rather than Armenians. Good example of how contentious issues should be settled. ] (]) 13:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
* Azerbaijani is not even italic (wrong)
* Shushi being named equal to main name despite being not the article name (wrong) it should be other_name
* Mention of non-English demonyms (very wrong), what's the point? Conme on
* Inclusion map of the dissolving Republic of Artsakh, that's not even controlling this place since 2020


The 2021 "consensus" simply ignores these things. ] (]) 17:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
is a picture of Azerbaijani bek, not Armenian. Read description:"Bek Tatare du Karabakh" (in 19 century Azerbaijani people were called Tatars). --] (]) 07:33, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
:No blind revert. 1. a good and balanced stance - in the territory of the former Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous oblast. 2. no opinion. 3. the disputed history of the town and the tragic consequences of the confilct are very clear. 4. ridiculous - filler 5. the map is relevant - intention to remove it comes from a political stance/desire. ] (]) 17:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
::First we're talking about the infobox. I don't care what you do in the body of the article unless it's wrong. Misplaced Pages isn't based on outdated information and emotions. And your answer "ridiculous" for me following the rules based on template is ridiculous. Is that your answer? Map is not any slighest relevant anymore. Republic of Artsakh is dissolving itself, and it's not even controlling the area. {{tq|intention to remove it comes from a political stance/desire}} what do you mean lol? I don't gain anything by removing some bytes on internet. I told my reasonings based on wikipedia template, and you're not even respecting it. What kind of comment is that of accusing my edits based on {{tq|political stance/desire}}. This goes into personal attacks. ] (]) 18:05, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:@] Please stop insulting your fellow Misplaced Pages editors, these are not blind reverts, your edits go against an established consensus among users, it is on you to seek a new consensus. The MOS varies among articles due to differing consensus on how certain articles should be formatted, if you read the guidelines this is to be expected and does not give you the right to change a consensus without discussion especially with AA3 sanctions active. Accusing your fellow editors of acting on emotions is also a personal attack btw and not civil, please remember ] in your talk page discussions because this is not the first time i’ve seen you been uncivil to people of differing beliefs to your own. ] ] 18:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
::{{tq| Accusing your fellow editors of acting on emotions}} this was put here to everyone, not to a certain user. He's talking about tragic stuff, that's what I said. Also do I accuse him of outdated information? Read my whole sentence. {{tq|your talk page discussions because this is not the first time i’ve seen you been uncivil to people of differing beliefs to your own}} show me some examples, I never point to users based on their ideas. It's also the first time I'm interacting with you.
::Maybe comment on the infobox that's been wrongly used here. Don't turn the topic into personal beef. ] (]) 19:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:::I patrol a lot of the pages regarding Armenia and Azerbaijan so i’ve seen a few comments, it’s nothing personal, I just ask for you to not accuse editors of bad faith for simple things like maintaining a consensus. The infobox can be formatted a variety of ways based on the consensus among users, there is a MOS but when there is consensus for a different style, especially in a contentious and controversial area that supersedes it, so I would recommend starting a new conversation about the infobox and seeking consensus per ]. ] ] 20:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
:It is interesting that the edits @] made here were instantly reverted, but the they made to the ] remains untouched. Does the issue emerge only when it doesn't favor a particular POV? ] (]) 08:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
::No, please revert those too, I don’t have rollback abilities so it’s hard to manually revert these cases every single time. ] ] 08:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)


== Importance of Maintaing Armenian Perspective in this Article ==
== Bournoutian ==
In accordance with WP:5P, I claim that this article currently only represents an Azeri POV (previous edits which introduced Armenian POV have been constantly reverted (which goes against WP:BRD-NOT), therefore no one can claim that this article currently represents a neutral point of view per WP:5P2). I have made BOLD edits that attempt to reconcile points of view into a more neutral article:
Introduced neutral POV on the establishment of the city. Considering undisputable evidence of Armenians inhabiting the region for millennia, and the fact that the location of Shushi is such that it is an ideal location to establish a city in the bronze age or even the middle ages, it's impossible that the city was only founded in 1715. It's also highly improbable that the city was founded by Azeris or the Shah, since Armenian presence in the region predates any Azeri or Arabic presence. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


:There was a very long discussion and RFC about that. The present version is based on consensus. Please discuss and reach consensus at talk before making any changes. ]] 14:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
The article cites Bournoutian, saying that Shusha was "a town and an ancient fortress in the Armenian Principality of Varanda". However below, in ] the article says: "According to George A. Bournoutian commenting the chronicler, prior to construction of the fortress by Panah Ali khan there were no buildings at that location and it was used as a cropland and pasture by the people of the nearby village of Shoshi". That needs a clarification because Bournoutian's claims seem to contradict one another, this is also contradictory to what Mirza Jamal Javanshir Qarabaghi writes. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

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Stop blindly reverts

Both @AntonSamuel: and @TagaworShah: are ignoring Template:Infobox settlement. What's the point?

Mistakes listed:

  • Azerbaijani and Armenian names are in bold (wrong)
  • Azerbaijani is not even italic (wrong)
  • Shushi being named equal to main name despite being not the article name (wrong) it should be other_name
  • Mention of non-English demonyms (very wrong), what's the point? Conme on
  • Inclusion map of the dissolving Republic of Artsakh, that's not even controlling this place since 2020

The 2021 "consensus" simply ignores these things. Beshogur (talk) 17:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

No blind revert. 1. a good and balanced stance - in the territory of the former Nagorno-Karabakh autonomous oblast. 2. no opinion. 3. the disputed history of the town and the tragic consequences of the confilct are very clear. 4. ridiculous - filler 5. the map is relevant - intention to remove it comes from a political stance/desire. AntonSamuel (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
First we're talking about the infobox. I don't care what you do in the body of the article unless it's wrong. Misplaced Pages isn't based on outdated information and emotions. And your answer "ridiculous" for me following the rules based on template is ridiculous. Is that your answer? Map is not any slighest relevant anymore. Republic of Artsakh is dissolving itself, and it's not even controlling the area. intention to remove it comes from a political stance/desire what do you mean lol? I don't gain anything by removing some bytes on internet. I told my reasonings based on wikipedia template, and you're not even respecting it. What kind of comment is that of accusing my edits based on political stance/desire. This goes into personal attacks. Beshogur (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
@Beshogur Please stop insulting your fellow Misplaced Pages editors, these are not blind reverts, your edits go against an established consensus among users, it is on you to seek a new consensus. The MOS varies among articles due to differing consensus on how certain articles should be formatted, if you read the guidelines this is to be expected and does not give you the right to change a consensus without discussion especially with AA3 sanctions active. Accusing your fellow editors of acting on emotions is also a personal attack btw and not civil, please remember Misplaced Pages:Civility in your talk page discussions because this is not the first time i’ve seen you been uncivil to people of differing beliefs to your own. TagaworShah (talk) 18:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Accusing your fellow editors of acting on emotions this was put here to everyone, not to a certain user. He's talking about tragic stuff, that's what I said. Also do I accuse him of outdated information? Read my whole sentence. your talk page discussions because this is not the first time i’ve seen you been uncivil to people of differing beliefs to your own show me some examples, I never point to users based on their ideas. It's also the first time I'm interacting with you.
Maybe comment on the infobox that's been wrongly used here. Don't turn the topic into personal beef. Beshogur (talk) 19:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
I patrol a lot of the pages regarding Armenia and Azerbaijan so i’ve seen a few comments, it’s nothing personal, I just ask for you to not accuse editors of bad faith for simple things like maintaining a consensus. The infobox can be formatted a variety of ways based on the consensus among users, there is a MOS but when there is consensus for a different style, especially in a contentious and controversial area that supersedes it, so I would recommend starting a new conversation about the infobox and seeking consensus per Misplaced Pages:BRD. TagaworShah (talk) 20:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
It is interesting that the edits @Beshogur made here were instantly reverted, but the same edit they made to the Stepanakert remains untouched. Does the issue emerge only when it doesn't favor a particular POV? Nemoralis (talk) 08:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
No, please revert those too, I don’t have rollback abilities so it’s hard to manually revert these cases every single time. TagaworShah (talk) 08:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Importance of Maintaing Armenian Perspective in this Article

In accordance with WP:5P, I claim that this article currently only represents an Azeri POV (previous edits which introduced Armenian POV have been constantly reverted (which goes against WP:BRD-NOT), therefore no one can claim that this article currently represents a neutral point of view per WP:5P2). I have made BOLD edits that attempt to reconcile points of view into a more neutral article: Introduced neutral POV on the establishment of the city. Considering undisputable evidence of Armenians inhabiting the region for millennia, and the fact that the location of Shushi is such that it is an ideal location to establish a city in the bronze age or even the middle ages, it's impossible that the city was only founded in 1715. It's also highly improbable that the city was founded by Azeris or the Shah, since Armenian presence in the region predates any Azeri or Arabic presence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HyeProfile (talkcontribs) 16:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

There was a very long discussion and RFC about that. The present version is based on consensus. Please discuss and reach consensus at talk before making any changes. Grandmaster 14:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
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