| Revision as of 21:40, 6 February 2013 editZjarriRrethues (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers11,995 edits →AfD 2← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 01:09, 27 December 2024 edit undoJclemens (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers45,438 edits →Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Principal Snyder: r | ||
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| == closing the DRV on the TEJ GIRI topic (October 23) == | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Thank you for closing the DRV on the TEJ GIRI topic (October 23) with a result of "delete." Draftify might indeed have been a better choice since there were many sources, but limited discussion on AFD compared to DRV. If you have any suggestions on how I could improve my contributions or avoid similar outcomes in the future, I’d really appreciate it. Specifically, I’m curious (AFD selection and DELETE result on DRV) about any weaknesses in the AFD process that may have influenced this result. Thanks again, and please feel free to skip this if it’s not necessary.] (]) 14:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I noticed that you closed the above discussion as No Consensus by discounting a couple of !votes. Though I have voted "delete" there and hence my opinions may be construted as biased, I respect your closure as an admin. I would like you to clarify why you chose to discredit the "delete" !votes of a couple of editors (who evidently didn't put forth policy based rationale) while not other "keep" !votes. Mar4d referenced a previous afd in their !vote and their further comments were rebutted IMO and Lyk4's opinions were convincingly rebutted without a reply from them to clarify. I've seen many an afd which were relisted multiple times since policy based opinions were few and far between. I cannot understand why you chose to close this instead of relisting. With so few participants, and the surge of participants after the previous relisting, I was expecting another relisting instead of a closure. I would highly appreciate if you could explain your rationale for this closure. <span style="text-shadow:gray 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]]</span> 13:06, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Hi. Per ], "relisting debates repeatedly in the hope of getting sufficient participation is not recommended", and in this case I felt that there had been sufficient participation to establish a no consensus outcome. As concerns the "keep" opinions, I normally discount "keep" opinions only if they completely fail to address salient "delete" arguments. In this case, both "keep" opinions did address the relevant issue, i.e. sourcing, therefore I couldn't discount them. Whether these arguments were rebutted or not is not for me as closer to judge. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 13:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks for your reply. :) I still have a couple of points I'd like you to address, if you don't mind. I am genuinely curious, and, you may take your own time in replying to this when you are free, as I am not in any hurry. | |||
| ::1. The salient delete argument was WP:NEO. There was no source presented either in the article nor in the deletion discussion, which "explained" the "term". Hence IMHO, the delete argument in the nom statement was not addressed in any of the "keep" arguments. There are tons of neologisms out there and not all of them deserve a wikipedia article unless atleast one reliable source takes up the neologism and explains it. Also, sorry if I come across as blunt, but "X no. of sources were presented, hence article should be kept" is an useless argument unless atleast some of the sources are determined to be suitable for inclusion; if presented in a deletion discussion, the suitability should be determined by consensus before said sources are considered for closing the discussion. | |||
| ::2. Quoting you: "Whether these arguments were rebutted or not is not for me as closer to judge.", I, and any reasonable editor, would expect any admin who closes a deletion discussion in which one has participated, to close the discussion after considering each and every comment in the discussion, whether or not they were "keeps", "deletes", "rebuttals", "opinions", or "ip comments" before "deciding" on the closure. Can you please explain why you chose to ignore the rebuttals to the "keep" arguments in this discussion? <span style="text-shadow:gray 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]]</span> 15:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, one could of course discuss in detail which weight should have been given to any individual opinion, but I'd rather not, because I frankly don't have the time for taking apart discussions at this level of detail. I consider that at the end of the day, my job as closer is to look at the discussion as a whole and determine whether there's a policy-based consensus to delete the page. In this case, I am of the opinion that there is not. You're of couse free to get a second opinion at ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 09:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The only part I agree with you is "fuck that article, coz who cares". I don't have anymore time for a DRV than you, as an admin, had in reviewing the discussion for that closure. If you think you don't have time for answering in detail, legitimate questions about your actions as an administrator, you should stop closing contentious deletion discussions. I am entitled to ask what points you considered and what you disregarded in a deletion discussion as I don't have admin rights and you have used a previlege, that "ordinary users" like me !voted in favour of you having it. The answer: "I looked at the discussion as a whole and decided it favoured X viewpoint. And I can't say anything more. Go to DRV" doesn't need to come from a trusted member like an administrator. Any inexperienced editor can close any discussion with this lame reason you gave. I know you are busy, and hence, repeatedly asked you to review the discussion and reply when you had free time, but you chose otherwise. I initially came here to learn about your decision making process, but your offputting attitude is disappointing. <span style="text-shadow:gray 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em; class=texhtml">]]</span> 18:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Can you please link to that DRV? <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == AE request concerning Noetica == | |||
| ::https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2024_October_23 ] (]) 05:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I am waiting for your response. ] (]) 04:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hello, I haven't received any response yet. I kindly request you to restore it as a draft, highlighting the issues that caused the result to be marked as "delete." ] (]) 11:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::@], sorry for the late reply. I have no particular advice to give, since my role as DRV closer is limited to assessing consensus in the DRV, and therefore I have not formed an opinion of my own about the article at issue. You should address your restoration request to the deleting admin <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 15:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thank you for your response. I have no idea on "restoration request." Could you please let me know where I can find it? ] (]) 16:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Just ask the deleting admin on their talk page. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 19:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| === Misunderstanding of the AE issues and consequent bogus warning === | |||
| Hi Sandstein, | |||
| {{wb|User talk:SMcCandlish|Arbitration enforcement warning: Manual of Style and article titles policy}} You failed to address most of the substantive points I rasied, and only made it even clearer that you are missing most of the salient facts, and simply reacted in a knee-jerk fashion without doing any background research into the dispute. The fact that you did not even know about the AN that led up to the AE is why your warning makes no sense and is grossly inappropriate. Every accusation you have made about my post to AE ]''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 12:42, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It was a tricky AfD to close, but after discarding the canvassed and non-P&G votes, I see a consensus to delete. I found two threads on Reddit canvassing for votes, and I'm sure others exist. What you said about NLIST is true, but I believe the Keep !voters did not adequately refute the issues of NLIST and CROSSCAT, which was nicely summarized by {{u|Dclemens1971}} there. I'd be willing to re-close (and likely face the inevitable DRV...), if that's okay with you. ] ] 20:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Update: Please note that {{strong|] has now resigned editing because of your unfounded threat/warning}}. Note further that ], another recipient, has already indicated, before your pointless boot dropped, intent to resign as well if sanctioned by AE for ultimately doing the right thing. I regret having criticized Noetica for taking such a stance, since I now find myself considering it, too. The "you can now be blocked without further notice by anyone with a hare up their butt" warning we received was based on errors and misinterpretations, unjust and invalid, and I'm not going to stand for being treated like a wikicriminal this way. I've devoted unbelievable amounts of time and effort to this project and I'll be damned if I'll be lynched for it. — <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 13:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I' |
:I'm not seeing a sufficiently clear consensus to delete. There was likely canvassing going on, but canvassed opinions are typically those by IPs or new accounts, and I saw few if any of those here. So I wouldn't know who to discount. Also, while I agree that Dclemens1971 made good arguments, they were made rather late and so were unable to sway the discussion much. I think a renomination after the article stabilizes might have a better chance at a clearer consensus one way or the other. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::Any reason not to have done a relist? Obviously a lot of participation had already happened, but it had only been open for a week, and contentious discussions seem to be relisted at least once before a N/C close. ] (]) 21:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{wb|User talk:SMcCandlish|Arbitration enforcement warning: Manual of Style and article titles policy}} I've tried over there one more time. Sandstein, at this point you are strongly coming across as ], convinced of ] against whatever it is you're so stalwart about (it's not really clear, because you're not making any sense in your increasingly convoluted contortions to ]), and clearly ] – in a way that raises real, ] problems. You are censuring, with a proven lack of facts, and based on proven errors in interpretation, four editors whom {{em|the community has already agreed by consensus}} did the right thing in bringing User:Apteva to ] for topic-banning and now blocking. You are blatantly defying a community consensus, overseen by admins at AN, that {{em|pre-existed}} the ] request Apteva filed in questionable faith and which gained no consensus, and you have take upon yourself to incorrectly enforce ARBATC, on the basis of this bogus AE case, against editors for making posts that are not even subject to its terms because they are about disruption, not style/titles. — <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 14:14, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, the discussion was quite long already, and given the general disagreement on how to deal with lists at AfD, I didn't expect that a relist would bring much more clarity. But if you think otherwise I'm fine with a relist. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 22:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Two editors with 48 edits to their name, and one with 39 edits, among others with almost no AfD history, all show up suddenly after and were posted on Reddit. Note that until the canvassing began, there was a clear consensus to delete, with only one opposing view (from a non-XC editor). I don't think leaving this to stabilize is the right approach here. It's hard to dismiss the views on that AfD that this list, created four days after a highly publicized murder, is not here for encyclopedic reasons. As a minimum, relisting to get a few more non-canvassed views from experienced AfD participants would make sense. ] ] 22:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree. Obviously as a !voter I have a take, but setting that aside I think that a relist might bring more attention from AfD regulars and lead to a P&G-based consensus. ] (]) 22:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::OK, I've relisted the AfD. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Thank you! ] ] 06:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==Deletion closure of ]== | |||
| === Appalled and dismayed at your destructiveness === | |||
| Hello {{u|Sandstein}}! In your closure of ] as redirect you have dismissed the two exemplary articles from the magazine '']'' on the topic, to which the other keep !voters have also referred to, as self-published. However, my understanding was that this is a serious, if specialized academic journal, and the claims: "''Slayage'' (ISSN 1546-9212) is an open-access, blind peer-reviewed, MLA-indexed publication and a member of the Directory of Open Access Journals. ''All content is available at no cost, in downloadable, full-text PDFs. There is no submission or publication fee for authors.''" Do you have any additional info why this should not be correct, and that the articles in question should be self-published? Thanks for giving more info! ] (]) 13:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks for asking. In the AfD, you did not describe these sources as articles from an academic journal. You merely referred to them as "" and "". Therefore, ''prima facie'', we have two amateurishly formatted PDFs that do not have citations (to anything other than ''Buffy'' episodes), or any other feature to be expected from an academic article (author descriptions, abstracts, affiliations, page numbers, citation suggestions, etc.) and which are hosted at two different URLs, "dashboard.ir.una.edu/downloads" and "offline.buffy.de". For these reasons, it did not cross my mind that such writings could be considered serious academic research, and even after reading your above message, for the previously mentioned reasons, I do not think that these can be credibly considered independent reliable sources. Moreover, only one of these works deals with the article subject, Principal Snyder, in more than a passing manner, which would still leave us short of the two sources required by GNG. For these reasons, I decline to reconsider my closure. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 15:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I tried to head this off. Now you've shown just how ham-fisted admins can be. How many excellent, valuable, talented editors have resigned over your needless "warnings". | |||
| ::Thanks for the info! The links were just the first hits Google Scholar gave on those, strangely enough. I did not think that would make any difference, but good to know. (For the sake of completeness the links from the journal's page would be and . The affilitions can be found on the issue overview pages and .) It would be really interesting if there has been already any collection of opinions on ''Slayage'' before, but I guess we both don't have insight there, or would you? But as we also disagree and on the evalution of the ''content'', I don't have to worry if a deletion review would make sense except if I happen upon additional sources. Which does not have priority, especially these days. Have a very merry Christmas! ] (]) 16:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thanks, I'm not aware of any previous discussion. The same to you! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| === ] === | |||
| A courtesy notice that this is going to DRV unless you choose to revise your close to keep. | |||
| I'm disgusted in your actions. ] ] 13:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Your evaluation of ''Slayage'' is incorrect; it was never an SPS, as is documented currently in ], but peer-reviewed and was at least at one time indexed in ]. For you to even draw a judgement is questionable, as no one in the discussion contended that ''Slayage'' was an SPS; instead, Piotrus (an academic, if that matters) explicitly expressed they appeared suitable to improve the article. Thus, you shouldn't have even looked at a question not raised in the discussion, and even so, you got the facts wrong. | |||
| *None of the 'Redirect' !voters articulated a problem that is not correctable through regular editing. References to ] do not satisfy ] number 14 as there is no barrier to editing to correct any issues, per ], part of the same policy page. By assigning nonzero weight to any of these non-policy-based !votes, you erred. | |||
| :Further, making a ''de facto'' conclusion that the topic is non-notable despite evidence of such being presented effectively eliminated the impact of ] on precisely a situation within its wheelhouse: information to support notability clearly exists, but it has not been added the article. | |||
| Ultimately, the only person in this discussion who asserts to have looked into sourcing not coming to the conclusion that this article should be kept... is you. ] (]) 14:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :I |
:I find the tone of this message objectionable, and will not respond further in this matter than I already have above. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 14:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::My apologies for not noticing the previous discussion. I'm moving and indenting this as a subheading under that one. I had used the 'start a new talk topic' button. | |||
| ::I am sorry you find the tone objectionable. It is not intended to be; rather, it is an outline of three separate deficiencies in your close; Daranios appears to have addressed the one--''Slayage'' was(?) a peer-reviewed, indexed journal--but not you assessing an objection not raised in the discussion or circumventing NEXIST. It's designed to be very clear for DRV participants what precisely my objections are. How would you have reworded any parts of my posting to be as clear but improving the tone, now that we've established I missed Daranios' previous posting? ] (]) 00:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Now at ]. (And c'mon, Jclemens, you know better than this; a ping isn't sufficient, and neither is the stated intention to bring it there when you haven't yet.) —] 00:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Surprisingly, I initiate relatively few DRVs. I had come back to this page to place the appropriate notification, not expecting Sandstein to be missing it as I believe him to be in Europe. You didn't ping me, else I wouldn't have necessarily noticed this. ] (]) 01:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Louis Mangione == | |||
| ::I do not think an editor who has wikipedia's interest at heart would leave over such a trivial thing as a warning. You guys are blowing it out of all proportion. When I read the comments on AE, I too was concerned that some of them were over the top. I thought of suggesting a warning, and before I made the suggestion, I saw it implemented. I thought a warning was a balaced response. But even if it was not, it is such a trivial sanction! Get over it and move on! If, as you say, your edits are so valuable and constructive, then by all means, continue applying your energy where it is most needed, not to escalate this storm in a teacup! - ] (]) 14:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Is there a reason why ] was deleted instead of having a discussion about redirecting with history? --] (]) 15:39, 25 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::It's not just a warning. It's an extra-special, prepare-to-be-blocked-without-notice {{em|threat}} form of warning, a special ArbCom number that a) has stigma attached to it, and b) constitutes a final notice that means that any admin for any even vaguely imaginable reason can long-term block us for any alleged ] problem. Given that Sandstein himself clearly cannot even tell the difference between a disruptive user behavior dispute that once upon a time originated in a style disagreement several month ago, on the one hand, and a style dispute on the other, there is no reason to expect all other admins to do so. Thus, it is effectively a topic ban against all participation in style or title decisions, since continuing to particpate in them will pretty much inevitably lead to a block, yet there was no community process and consensus, as at ] or ] behind the topic ban, it's just a de facto one put into place by one overly righteous admin who admits himself that he did not even read or know about the ] and ] that led up to the ] request he responded to. He not only doesn't even know what's going on, the {{em|refuses}} to find out. And this seems to be being tolerated. Those are non-trivial reasons someone might consider quitting the project. So is being treated like a wikicriminal for having done the right thing in the first place, as supported by the consensus at WP:AN and even in another WP:AE request against Apteva.<p>PS: I find it pretty offensive that you'd make a ] accusation – a clear assumption of bad faith – against anyone just because they would vote with their feet as a matter of principle in response to false accusations and punitive labeling by an admin who literally refuses to find out what the actual facts are and revisit his hasty, ill-informed decision. I've actually quit real-world, paying jobs over less, as have many other principled people I know. One of the main reasons people are leaving WP in droves and not coming back is abusive treatment by admins and ]ish editors. I'm not gone just yet, because I think Sandstein will either see reason, or formal process can overturn what he's done. Which is not just a trivial warning like you suggest. — <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 15:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :It was deleted because that was the consensus in the AfD discussion. There was no consensus for a redirect. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 16:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :: The other admin (uninvolved? maybe; bears looking into) simply added a "me too" !vote, and no rationale. I would bet US$100 right now that this admin did not read the AN case that preceded the AE either, and thus had no better idea what the heck is actually going on than you do. I'm going to go ask, just for the heck of it. <ins>{{small|]. 15:08, 2 February 2013 (UTC)]}}</ins>. Moot point anyway, since no one else at the AE case supported your idea of throwing warnings around. And these are not really warnings in the usual admonition by an admin sense, they are special threats that carry the weight of ArbCom. They aren't verbiage, they are official notices the existence of which mean that any admin can now long-term-block any thus-"warned" editor for any vaguely defined, even imaginary transgression that allegedly involves style or titles, with no further notice because "we were warned". Given that you clearly cannot understand that this extended Apteva RFC/U and AN and AE case itself is not a style/title issue, but a user behavior issue that arose, months ago, when said disruptive user refused to stop forum shopping a style issue he never could get consensus on anywhere, this does not bode well. I've spent hours explaining to you why it's not a style case, and you still don't get it. Expecting that all other admins on the system, combined, will never ever misinterpret a non-style issue as a style issue and wrongly block me or Noetica or Ohconfucius falsely for violating ARBATC when we really didn't, is utterly unreasonable. So, when I quit because of you, are {{em|you}} going to work double-time to make up for the next {{em|{{strong|eighty-thousand}}}} edits I was going to make over the next {{em|strong|seven-and-half years}}}}? Years of never once being blocked, SPI'd, RFC/U'd, ArbCom'd, AN/I'd legitimately, templated legitimately, or otherwise sanctioned, ever, for anything, I might add. I'm am, and for years have been, one of the 400 most-active editors, and you've basically just told me to go fuck myself, in oh-so-civil wording. You don't even understand what civility actually means; you simply think it means using nice phrasing. Willfully dropping ArbCom-threat-laden warnings for reasons that have clearly proven unjustifiable is not civil by any stretch of the imagination, nor does responding to complaints about it with the suggestion I should go do something else. | |||
| {| style="margin: 2em auto; text-align: center;" | |||
| |- | |||
| | ] | |||
| | valign="middle" width="270" style="padding-top: 0.5em;" | ] <br /> <p style="font-size: 115%;">''You've been ].''</p><small>Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly.</small> | |||
| |} | |||
| — <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 14:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Great stuff Sandstein, but admins are supposed to ''help'' the encylopedia, not lumber around issuing unjustified threats. Yes, no one should get excited about horizontal lines, and no one should object to the stigma of a threat placed in a neat box on their talk page, but there ''has'' been massive disruption and you are warning the wrong people. If you were correct, and if you were interested in the encyclopedia, you would attempt to determine a little bit of the background before plonking ham-fisted templates on the talk pages of productive editors. If, after investigating the background, it was felt that some kind of warning was warranted, an admin wanting to help the encyclopedia would write a few words explaining their concern, and would omit the melodramatics which should be reserved for ]. Please resign. ] (]) 03:53, 3 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| === MOS warnings === | |||
| While I did not receive one due to Cailil's comments, I am concerned by these other warnings due to some of the mistaken comments an experienced AE admin such as yourself is making with regards to acceptable practice at AE. Some points I consider relevant: | |||
| *Comments about Apteva's conduct with regards to the MOS pages and article titles were clearly pertinent to a case Apteva filed against an editor from that same topic area who is on the other side of the dispute. | |||
| *Comments about Sarek's conduct were obviously pertinent to the case as Noetica's comments were made in the context of a disagreement with Sarek. | |||
| *While the claim that SMc did not provide evidence for his allegations in the AE case is accurate, Confucius provided links to various discussions that concerned Apteva's conduct with regards to the MOS and article titles in a rather civil nature yet was still given a warning. | |||
| *AE admins are not required to examine the claim of the filer and only the claim of the filer. I noted plainly that the instructions at AE are that editors who come with unclean hands may have their request denied or be sanctioned. Clearly that means it is well within bounds to comment on the conduct of any involved parties when a complaint is raised, as is common at any and every other conduct noticeboard. | |||
| Overall, I feel handing out all these warnings for comments at AE that were hardly beyond the pale for a conduct noticeboard is needlessly disruptive, especially when the noticeboard discussion was initiated for apparently vexatious and POINTy reasons.--] <sub>] ]</sub> 06:36, 3 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry, but I still disagree. Even considering that it is true that Apteva has been found to have acted disruptively, based on the community topic ban imposed against them on AN at (just noting, that's how you cite evidence when discussing user conduct), this does not justify other editors showing up at an AE request made by Apteva and discussing that misconduct, and especially not alleged misconduct by others. That's because AE is focused on ''arbitration enforcement''. While it is true that at AE a filer's conduct can be examined also, in view of AE's special purpose this "unclean hands" examination must be limited to misconduct that could result in AE action against the filer, rather than to their conduct in general. But in the instant case no such action was possible because the filer, Apteva, had only just been warned, and in fact nobody of the users I warned asked for AE sanctions against Apteva, but only generally voiced their disapproval of Apteva and other editors. This, as I said, is beyond AE's scope. Now normally such offtopic (at AE) comments might just have been ignored, but in this case the ArbCom decision contains a special anti-battlegrounding reminder. That is why it was appropriate to warn the users at issue of that reminder. It is important to recognize that this reminder also applies when dealing with misconduct by others, as in this case by Apteva. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :However, considering the volume of criticism received so far, I've decided to ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 09:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It was {{em|entirely}} pertinent to raise Apteva's general abusive, forum-shopping ''modus operandi'' at AE, because Apteva was abusing AE and using it for forum shopping! There is no policy that mentioning what is already common knowledge in admin noticeboard circles (Apteva's case at AN had been going on for weeks, and it was not his first time at AN/ANI or AE for related abuses) requires that citations to evidence be produced once again on the spot simply because the discussion has moved around a bit, e.g. from RFC/U to AN to AE; it is generally presumed that WP editors and admins are not morons, can read, and are sane enough to understand that a contentious issue appearing at AE probably has some background history worth looking, and will actually go look for it and familiarize themselves with it before coming to hasty conclusions about one party's newly AE-posted version of events. It was {{em|necessary}} to mention the two other tag-team editors also involved in the AN case, because to not do so would be to falsely accuse Apteva of causing all of the salient problems being referred to, when in fact he was only 1/3 of the problem. (False accusations are not in my toolkit; the same can't be said for someone else central to this conversation...) Myself and others suggesting that Apteva's vindictive request for arbitration was POINTy, vexatious and/or frivolous (I think my own term was "farcical") obviously qualifies as a request that Apteva be sanctioned for filing such a request, since such sanctions are normal in response to such nuisance filings. If you don't know this, why you clerking (or lurking or whatever it is you are doing) at AE? I and others threatened by you were {{em|not}} "generally voic disapproval of Apteva and other editors"; we were providing information to AE that the motivation for Apteva's request there was extremely suspect, because there was already overwhelming consensus at RFC/U and AN that he had been a consistently disruptive editor on topics related to the matter, and refused to accept this, instead re-re-re-re-re-re-raising his peeves at every possible forum; we would have been negligent to {{em|not}} make AE aware of this.<p>The RFC/U, AN and AE proceedings involving Apteva do {{em|not}} intrinsically have anything to do with style or titles at all, and not everything said in them is magically subject to ]. All three of them were about {{em|disruptive editing behavior}}, entirely independent of whatever the article or guideline topics Apteva was being disruptive over originally, be that RfA procedures, Mickey Mouse, or turnips.<p>Even if you were right (which you are not) that I and others were making broad-stroke, vague and off-topic allegations without proof, and even if you were not patently assuming band faith on our part by accusing us of doing so, your ARBATC-based warning is invalid, because ARBATC was {{em|not applicable}} to anything said in the messages we posted for which you issued these bogus warnings. If you felt compelled to smack me and the other three editors who got your warning, you should have simply left your personal admonition as an admin, that we henceforth ensure that issues brought up about editors at AE are directly relevant to the AE request at issue and that evidentiary links be provided ''in situ''. No one would resign over this, and you would not be making any false accusations or assumptions, simply issuing a request for mindfulness. I.e., doing something a reasonable, fair-minded, thoughtful admin would do. Your knee-jerk, no-homework assumption that we must necessarily have been acting inappropriately, and that there could be no other possible interpretation, when you clearly had zero background information or context, was a mistake. So was citing ARBATC as the basis for the warning without actually walking through the logic to see if you were responding to a disagreement about style/titles and thus subject to ARBATC or a disagreement about an editor's abusive behavior patterns generally, which has jack to do with ARBATC (please note that Apteva was eventually blocked for sockpuppetry in energy/power articles, and nothing to do with style or article names at all!). Your assertion that ARBATC's "special anti-battlegrounding reminder" as you put it (and you have failed to demonstrate that I or anyone else violated ]) applies to general noticeboard activity "dealing with misconduct by others" is patently false, and unsupported by any statement ArbCom has issued; like all ArbCom sancitons, this one is very narrowly tailored to the specific of the ARBATC case, which covered long-term editwarring and incivility over naming conventions and the Manual of Style. Another mistake was assuming you had a consensus at AE to issue a warning in the name of AE and the ArbCom when in fact no one else supported your doing so other than one other admin (possibly not uninvolved, like you), who did not provide any actual rationale for doing so, and who did not indicate having looked into the background and context of the issue either (if neither of you did any homework, you're equally likely to be wrong).<br />— <font face="Trebuchet MS">''']''' <span style="white-space:nowrap;">] ɖ<sup><big>⊝</big></sup>כ<sup>⊙</sup>þ </span> <small>]</small></font> 13:32, 3 February 2013 (UTC)</p> | |||
| :I will certainly be warning every editor of the dangers of writing ''anything'' at the AE page. It's just not worth the risk. ] ] 11:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's certainly not a bad idea to warn editors to be circumspect when critizing others, whether at AE or elsewhere, but particularly in the context of arbitration enforcement requests regarding topics with active discretionary sanctions. Also, there's normally no need for involved editors other than the filer or the subject of the request to make any contributions to an AE thread. In that sense, such a warning would be a good idea. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Your warnings to these editors indicate that they "casted aspersions". (Unless I'm misreading it?) ] (is this the section you were referring to?) — key here—and you mentioned this too at AE—is that the allegations were unsubstantiated. But I don't see that at all at AE; plenty of links/diffs etc were given to back up the allegations being made. In particular, I'm reading over Ohconfucius' comments at AE, trying to figure out what exactly the warning is about. I don't see it. I've looked on with dismay at the nonconstructive bickering that has been going on at these pages for the last few years, but I don't see it there at the AE discussion. As far as I can tell, simply arguing that the enforcement request was made in retaliation for something was enough to earn a warning? Was that your intention? I haven't been terribly active at AE in the past, and honestly I'm kind of afraid to comment there now! I think you at least need to retract the language about casting aspersions. If nothing else, ''plenty'' of evidence was given at AE for every claim made, as far as I can tell. ] (]) 19:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I've explained the reason for my warnings in more detail elsewhere. In general, they relate to the need not to continue (underlying) content or conduct disputes at AE, which is not the place for this (the box there reads: "Arbitration Enforcement is not the place for anything other than enforcement of a closed Arbitration Committee ruling. It is not for: ... Conduct not covered by the ruling"), and not to continue personalizing stylistic disagreements, in accordance with the Committee's reminder. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm speaking here specifically of the "cast aspersions" language you added, which appears to be irrelevant, given the lack of ''unsubstantiated'' allegations, which is key. I think you at least need to retract that. ] <small>(] | ])</small> 17:29, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Thank you == | |||
| : | |||
| {| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" | |||
| |rowspan="2" valign="top" | ] | |||
| |rowspan="2" | | |||
| |style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: bottom; height: 1.1em;" | '''A beer on me!''' | |||
| |- | |||
| |style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Thank you for taking a stand against comments that make snide remarks about other users in inappropriate contexts. This type of behavior does untold damage on Misplaced Pages, usually seems to be accepted as the norm, and so I welcome any and all administrative actions that fairly communicate that such commentary is unacceptable and counter-productive to building a high quality encyclopedia. Recent warnings issued by you did exactly that, IMHO. On behalf of the entire WP community, thank you for these efforts that will undoubtedly help to improve the atmosphere here. --] (]) 00:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| :Thanks - I appreciate it! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 08:07, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Deletion review for ] == | |||
| An editor has asked for a ] of ]. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. <!-- This originally was from the template {{subst:DRVNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~ --> ] (]) 09:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Ping == | |||
| Hi, Sandstein. Did you notice I wrote a hopefully constructive at the RFAR talkpage? ] | ] 16:06, 5 February 2013 (UTC). | |||
| == AfD 2 == | |||
| Since the relist, the article has been plagued with canvassing as I expected when I first listed the AfD. Virtually all active Serb editors have !kept the article. Some are openly canvassing(Nado158) and others have resorted to sockpuppetry(). That being said, users like Nado158 are showing extreme intellectual dishonesty. He's adding events that haven't been attributed to anyone and have no clear motives but he apparently groups them under "persecution". An example, which I removed was a case of two children injured in a bomb attack, which he added in the "list of persecutions". At that time there was no suspect and no motive and as the case developed that day (therefore Nado shouldn't had added it in the first place), while Nado was still editing ...a Serb from a neighbouring family was arrested as a suspect and of course Nado somehow "failed to notice" its crucial point and later even reverted me with what I can only perceive as a very disingenuous reasoning (I've even linked the article in my summary). And now this . Please intervene as this is getting too disruptive in all aspects.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">]</span> <sup>]</sup> 17:36, 6 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 01:09, 27 December 2024
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closing the DRV on the TEJ GIRI topic (October 23)
Thank you for closing the DRV on the TEJ GIRI topic (October 23) with a result of "delete." Draftify might indeed have been a better choice since there were many sources, but limited discussion on AFD compared to DRV. If you have any suggestions on how I could improve my contributions or avoid similar outcomes in the future, I’d really appreciate it. Specifically, I’m curious (AFD selection and DELETE result on DRV) about any weaknesses in the AFD process that may have influenced this result. Thanks again, and please feel free to skip this if it’s not necessary.Endrabcwizart (talk) 14:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please link to that DRV? Sandstein 06:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2024_October_23 Endrabcwizart (talk) 05:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- I am waiting for your response. Endrabcwizart (talk) 04:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, I haven't received any response yet. I kindly request you to restore it as a draft, highlighting the issues that caused the result to be marked as "delete." Endrabcwizart (talk) 11:07, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Endrabcwizart, sorry for the late reply. I have no particular advice to give, since my role as DRV closer is limited to assessing consensus in the DRV, and therefore I have not formed an opinion of my own about the article at issue. You should address your restoration request to the deleting admin Sandstein 15:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your response. I have no idea on "restoration request." Could you please let me know where I can find it? Endrabcwizart (talk) 16:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just ask the deleting admin on their talk page. Sandstein 19:34, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your response. I have no idea on "restoration request." Could you please let me know where I can find it? Endrabcwizart (talk) 16:47, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Endrabcwizart, sorry for the late reply. I have no particular advice to give, since my role as DRV closer is limited to assessing consensus in the DRV, and therefore I have not formed an opinion of my own about the article at issue. You should address your restoration request to the deleting admin Sandstein 15:19, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:Articles for deletion/List of health insurance executives in the United States
Hi Sandstein,
It was a tricky AfD to close, but after discarding the canvassed and non-P&G votes, I see a consensus to delete. I found two threads on Reddit canvassing for votes, and I'm sure others exist. What you said about NLIST is true, but I believe the Keep !voters did not adequately refute the issues of NLIST and CROSSCAT, which was nicely summarized by Dclemens1971 there. I'd be willing to re-close (and likely face the inevitable DRV...), if that's okay with you. Owen× ☎ 20:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing a sufficiently clear consensus to delete. There was likely canvassing going on, but canvassed opinions are typically those by IPs or new accounts, and I saw few if any of those here. So I wouldn't know who to discount. Also, while I agree that Dclemens1971 made good arguments, they were made rather late and so were unable to sway the discussion much. I think a renomination after the article stabilizes might have a better chance at a clearer consensus one way or the other. Sandstein 21:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Any reason not to have done a relist? Obviously a lot of participation had already happened, but it had only been open for a week, and contentious discussions seem to be relisted at least once before a N/C close. Dclemens1971 (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the discussion was quite long already, and given the general disagreement on how to deal with lists at AfD, I didn't expect that a relist would bring much more clarity. But if you think otherwise I'm fine with a relist. Sandstein 22:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Two editors with 48 edits to their name, and one with 39 edits, among others with almost no AfD history, all show up suddenly after this and this were posted on Reddit. Note that until the canvassing began, there was a clear consensus to delete, with only one opposing view (from a non-XC editor). I don't think leaving this to stabilize is the right approach here. It's hard to dismiss the views on that AfD that this list, created four days after a highly publicized murder, is not here for encyclopedic reasons. As a minimum, relisting to get a few more non-canvassed views from experienced AfD participants would make sense. Owen× ☎ 22:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. Obviously as a !voter I have a take, but setting that aside I think that a relist might bring more attention from AfD regulars and lead to a P&G-based consensus. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I've relisted the AfD. Sandstein 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! Owen× ☎ 06:15, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I've relisted the AfD. Sandstein 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. Obviously as a !voter I have a take, but setting that aside I think that a relist might bring more attention from AfD regulars and lead to a P&G-based consensus. Dclemens1971 (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Any reason not to have done a relist? Obviously a lot of participation had already happened, but it had only been open for a week, and contentious discussions seem to be relisted at least once before a N/C close. Dclemens1971 (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Deletion closure of Principal Snyder
Hello Sandstein! In your closure of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Principal Snyder as redirect you have dismissed the two exemplary articles from the magazine Slayage on the topic, to which the other keep !voters have also referred to, as self-published. However, my understanding was that this is a serious, if specialized academic journal, and the its homepage claims: "Slayage (ISSN 1546-9212) is an open-access, blind peer-reviewed, MLA-indexed publication and a member of the Directory of Open Access Journals. All content is available at no cost, in downloadable, full-text PDFs. There is no submission or publication fee for authors." Do you have any additional info why this should not be correct, and that the articles in question should be self-published? Thanks for giving more info! Daranios (talk) 13:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for asking. In the AfD, you did not describe these sources as articles from an academic journal. You merely referred to them as "Buffy, the Scooby Gang, and Monstrous Authority: BtVS and the Subversion of Authority" and ""You're on My Campus, Buddy!" Sovereign and Disciplinary Power at Sunnydale High". Therefore, prima facie, we have two amateurishly formatted PDFs that do not have citations (to anything other than Buffy episodes), or any other feature to be expected from an academic article (author descriptions, abstracts, affiliations, page numbers, citation suggestions, etc.) and which are hosted at two different URLs, "dashboard.ir.una.edu/downloads" and "offline.buffy.de". For these reasons, it did not cross my mind that such writings could be considered serious academic research, and even after reading your above message, for the previously mentioned reasons, I do not think that these can be credibly considered independent reliable sources. Moreover, only one of these works deals with the article subject, Principal Snyder, in more than a passing manner, which would still leave us short of the two sources required by GNG. For these reasons, I decline to reconsider my closure. Sandstein 15:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info! The links were just the first hits Google Scholar gave on those, strangely enough. I did not think that would make any difference, but good to know. (For the sake of completeness the links from the journal's page would be here and here. The affilitions can be found on the issue overview pages here and here.) It would be really interesting if there has been already any collection of opinions on Slayage before, but I guess we both don't have insight there, or would you? But as we also disagree and on the evalution of the content, I don't have to worry if a deletion review would make sense except if I happen upon additional sources. Which does not have priority, especially these days. Have a very merry Christmas! Daranios (talk) 16:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'm not aware of any previous discussion. The same to you! Sandstein 17:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info! The links were just the first hits Google Scholar gave on those, strangely enough. I did not think that would make any difference, but good to know. (For the sake of completeness the links from the journal's page would be here and here. The affilitions can be found on the issue overview pages here and here.) It would be really interesting if there has been already any collection of opinions on Slayage before, but I guess we both don't have insight there, or would you? But as we also disagree and on the evalution of the content, I don't have to worry if a deletion review would make sense except if I happen upon additional sources. Which does not have priority, especially these days. Have a very merry Christmas! Daranios (talk) 16:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Principal Snyder
A courtesy notice that this is going to DRV unless you choose to revise your close to keep.
- Your evaluation of Slayage is incorrect; it was never an SPS, as is documented currently in Buffy studies, but peer-reviewed and was at least at one time indexed in DOAJ. For you to even draw a judgement is questionable, as no one in the discussion contended that Slayage was an SPS; instead, Piotrus (an academic, if that matters) explicitly expressed they appeared suitable to improve the article. Thus, you shouldn't have even looked at a question not raised in the discussion, and even so, you got the facts wrong.
- None of the 'Redirect' !voters articulated a problem that is not correctable through regular editing. References to WP:NOT#PLOT do not satisfy WP:DEL#REASON number 14 as there is no barrier to editing to correct any issues, per WP:ATD, part of the same policy page. By assigning nonzero weight to any of these non-policy-based !votes, you erred.
- Further, making a de facto conclusion that the topic is non-notable despite evidence of such being presented effectively eliminated the impact of WP:NEXIST on precisely a situation within its wheelhouse: information to support notability clearly exists, but it has not been added the article.
Ultimately, the only person in this discussion who asserts to have looked into sourcing not coming to the conclusion that this article should be kept... is you. Jclemens (talk) 14:09, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- I find the tone of this message objectionable, and will not respond further in this matter than I already have above. Sandstein 14:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
- My apologies for not noticing the previous discussion. I'm moving and indenting this as a subheading under that one. I had used the 'start a new talk topic' button.
- I am sorry you find the tone objectionable. It is not intended to be; rather, it is an outline of three separate deficiencies in your close; Daranios appears to have addressed the one--Slayage was(?) a peer-reviewed, indexed journal--but not you assessing an objection not raised in the discussion or circumventing NEXIST. It's designed to be very clear for DRV participants what precisely my objections are. How would you have reworded any parts of my posting to be as clear but improving the tone, now that we've established I missed Daranios' previous posting? Jclemens (talk) 00:14, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Now at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 27. (And c'mon, Jclemens, you know better than this; a ping isn't sufficient, and neither is the stated intention to bring it there when you haven't yet.) —Cryptic 00:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Surprisingly, I initiate relatively few DRVs. I had come back to this page to place the appropriate notification, not expecting Sandstein to be missing it as I believe him to be in Europe. You didn't ping me, else I wouldn't have necessarily noticed this. Jclemens (talk) 01:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Now at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 27. (And c'mon, Jclemens, you know better than this; a ping isn't sufficient, and neither is the stated intention to bring it there when you haven't yet.) —Cryptic 00:57, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Louis Mangione
Is there a reason why Louis Mangione was deleted instead of having a discussion about redirecting with history? --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:39, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
- It was deleted because that was the consensus in the AfD discussion. There was no consensus for a redirect. Sandstein 16:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)