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Revision as of 17:14, 14 February 2013 editPigsonthewing (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors266,298 editsm |← Previous edit Latest revision as of 15:12, 17 December 2024 edit undoEaldgyth (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators153,104 edits Happy Holidays! 
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{{{{#ifeq:|tmbox|tmbox|mbox}}
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|text = ''']'''. {{#if:|{{{2}}}|{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} has not edited Misplaced Pages '''{{#if:31 August 2022|since 31 August 2022|for a considerable amount of time}}'''. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach his aunt, ], who is still an occasional editor.
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== File:Bramham Park.gif listed for discussion ==
] A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 23:50, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


== Always precious ==
Old messages are at:
]
*] (From Oct 2004)
Ten years ago, ] were found precious. That's what you are, always. --] (]) 13:23, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
*] (From Jan 2005)
*] (From July 2005)
*] (From Jan 2006)
*] (From July 2006)
*] (From Jan 2007)
*] (From July 2007)
*] (From Jan 2008)
*] (From July 2008)
*] (From Jan 2009)
*] (From July 2009)
*] (From Jan 2010)
*] (From July 2010)
*] (From Jan 2011)
*] (From July 2011)
*] (from Jan 2012)


== Belton House ==


This article is under FAR. You can place comments here; ] ] (]) 22:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


=== Featured Article Save Award for ] ===
{{User Wikipedian For|year=2004|month=11|day=8}}
There is a ] nomination at ]. Please join the discussion to recognize and celebrate editors who helped assure this article would retain its featured status. ] (]) 16:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
]
{{nobots}}


==Mail call==
You have mail (finally). ] &#124; ] 09:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC).


==]==
This talk page has remained protected since May 2011, when you were involved in the discussion. Since that month there has been only one edit. Is there a reason that it should remain protected? ] (]) 22:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
:I think you may be confusing Giano with another editor, and in any case, Giano has not edited since last August. I have unprotected that talk page. ] (]) 22:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)


== FAR for Matthew Brettingham ==


I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ].<!--Template:FARMessage--> ] (]) 20:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
==Rollback==
When I restored rollback to your sainted aunt (a k a mrs Rollbacker) I recollected (eventually) that you too might have mislaid yours in some exotic location, which was indeed the case. Fixed. ] &#124; ] 11:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC).
::*That's most kind, but if you check the ANI noticeboards from centuries back you will see that the so called Misplaced Pages community of doubtlessly very polite, but failed editors and second-rate admins decided in their infinite wisdom that I am not a suitable person to be trusted with such magical powers. However, I'm sure that my esteemed and noble aunt will be more than delighted to have such tools, although of course her high and impartial position in the Misplaced Pages hierarchy will prevent their use. Perhaps you would care to grant them to her secretary and factotum extraordinaire, Miss A V Corpus. Thank you. ] (]) 12:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::Oh, that must have been in your impetuous youth, I don't care. I was just considering Miss Corpus. What do you think of the Reverend Deepthought and Lady Catherine's personal masseur, Lars-Göran or whatever his name is? Would the feature be useful to them, and, more importantly, would Lady C approve? ] &#124; ] 14:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC).
:::::*Well it would be useful for rolling back all those little bots that crop up here, and idiots that wish to include all their own houses and various holiday snaps in pages on architecture. Not to mention those that need to lecture the rest of us in etiquette and examples of what they are imagine are nice manners. I don't think the Rev Deepthought requires it; he tends to dwell on higher matters. Miss Corpus definitely needs it as I believe she intends to join the civility police and run for adminship. She's developed a crush on Malleus and wants to bring herself to his attention as a dominatrice by blocking him all the time. ] (]) 14:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Ah. She might want to start by giving her opinion on ANI, and ]. I recommend following ] around and agreeing with him. Malleus Fatuorum admires feisty women, I'm sure. You do recollect that rollback is for obvious vandalism only? For mere idiocy, use the "undo" feature. Rollback in your own userspace is acceptable. Such as rolling back bots, indeed… to fend them off, I've just now taken the liberty of adding some code at the top of this page. I'm not sure it works — I've tried several ways on my own page previously, without success (I see you already have the <nowiki>{{nobots}}</nowiki>, which they merely laugh at) — but this one comes recommended by RexxS and seems effective so far. Well, I expect the bots will step up the arms race momently. ] &#124; ] 16:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC).


==Season's Greetings==
== Edward Lovett Pearce ==
{| style="border:2px ; background-color: #FFF7E6;"
|rowspan="2" valign="right" | ]
|rowspan="2" |
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2; vertical-align: left; height: 1.1em;" | '''Season's Greetings'''
|-
|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Nativity scene on the ] by ] is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. ] (]) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
|}


== ] ==
Hi Giano, do you remember writing this in 2004? (14 November 2004) "], Another of Pearce's earliest commissions occurred when he was commissioned by his uncle-in-law Thomas Coote to build Bellamont House, at Cootehill," <br>I'm very keen to know the people (their names) that are in this relationship. Can you tell me? With kind regards, ] (]) 07:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
::Goodness me; did I write that? - that was a long time ago - obviously before the days when we had access to so many pictures - we shall have to liven the page up. No, I have no idea about his relationships and relations. I wonder if that Mormon site where people can trace their family trees would be any help. ] (]) 16:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
::: Mormon? I don't understand. Where did you get the idea from, its there in the first published version (of your first major creative effort for WP I think). What are the pictures you refer to? In admiration, ] (]) 04:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
::::*Oh I see: well, the page is all explained, referenced and sorted now. Don't worry about the Mormons (actually it may be the Amish or Jehovah's Witnesses - someone like that anyway) had a website, where people of doubtful parentage could type in their name and up came their grandmother's second cousin's grandfather. I'm sure it was very useful for them, but the website seems to have disappeared - I expect once everyone had found their lost relations they stopped using it. Regarding pictures - I see the page needs a few more - I am attempting to track down some incompetent admin who stupidly deleted the picture that I did place there in the lead; leave it with me I shall soon have it back and the admin concerned will be very sorry indeed. ] (]) 16:15, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::As I know little or nothing about architecture and I've made a category specially for ELP in Wikimedia and you have uploaded some new images to Misplaced Pages (not Wikimedia but you know much more than I do about these things) would you consider writing to this firm of becaause they claim to have worked on here's and persuading them to donate good quality mages to Wikimedia if only on the grounds that it would be a further assurance of their long term conservation? Best, ] (]) 01:30, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::That is weird, there hsould have been an edit clash there and the system just swallowed that you had changed this page while I had it open (for 8 hours or so). And thanks for about the Mormons I'm sure you're quite right there. They don't call here any more. I have re-organised the images of Henrietta Street and put them in Wikimedia. Curiously enough no available images of numbers 9 and 10 can be found which is where the architect above might help if he feels like it I'm just going to link bad pics of 11 and 12 to ELP. Happy day, ] (]) 01:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::::*These things cannot be explained, but then a lot of weird things happen on Misplaced Pages. Right! It's no use me writing to an eminent firm of architects, one simple check of me on Misplaced Pages would show that I am regarded by Misplaced Pages's hierarchy as 'a danger to the project' and a general 'ne-er-do-well' No it has be an eminent Wikipedian - who represents all that is finest and most trustworthy in the UK Wikipedian World: I suggest you approach ] or ]. Both hold high official positions and command the respect of Mr Wales - they should be able to do the trick nicely. ] (]) 10:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::::::Well, yes, but I Know you and I don't know them if you see what I mean. I'm gonna have to think about this . . anyway would the official approach work? Thinking.<br>We have to find some clear images somewhere, if I have any luck will notify here. Oh I see, that is what an uncle-in-law is. I had (mistakenly) translated it to mean a spouse's uncle. I so often get these things wrong, ] (]) 01:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Is it of interest that Pearce's grandfathers were respectively a Turkey Merchant (lived Constantinople?) and an early almost-nabob? ] (]) 01:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
::* I am an inclusionist. So anything that's of interest regarding the subject should be added. ] (]) 13:39, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


Hello {{u|Giano}},
==]==
I don't know if you're aware of John Millar's that Wilbraham was an influence on Wren and had a hand in the design of ]. Interesting. Anyway, I wondered if you had an opinion on by Millar that Little Cassiobury in Watford was definitely designed by Wilbraham because the house has which only she used during the late 17th century. Can you recall other houses with similar features built during that period, which have a known designer other than Wilbraham? ''']''' ''']''' 14:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)


As one of the original parties to the "Durova" arbitration case, you may be interested in the current ]. A motion has been proposed to modify principle 2 by removing copyright-related wording from it.
::It's a lovely theory, but it worries me. I'm sure she was a very clever woman and gave her friends lots of ideas. Just like today, once people get some money they often think they are arbiters of taste and design. In that period, there were lots of patrons/gentlemen architects who employed others to put their ideas into workable drawings - sometimes with happy results and some less fortunate. You could take this collusion between gentleman and draughtsman (remember the term architect was never used) a step further and say that was the relationship between Vanbrugh and Hawksmoor. Upper-class women often had influence and it was accepted so there's no reason to suppose her opinions would not have been sought and they could just as easily and unremarkably instructed a draughtsman as they could their chef or gardener.


Best regards,<br>] (]) 04:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
::I looked at the house, little Cassiobury, and imediatly thought it was much later - so I checked my Pevsner and found it had been 'rehabilitaed' by ] circa 1930 - which accounts for the slightly incongruous roof. I'm still not happy with its dating and the idea that she also designed ]; if you look at the plans of LC here and compare with the ], which are all as one would expect for the period. look at the chimneys at Cassiobury, they are all over the place and the plans show that they always were. I would have expected to see at least one corner fireplace too. I can't prove anything any more than our learned American friend, Mr Millar, but I would say that those plans are not by the same hand.


== Arbitration motion regarding Durova ==
::No, I don't know anyone using those narrow projections in that way at that period, but Hawksmoor did and was almost at the same time - perhaps a year or so later (we don't have an exact date for Cassiobury - do we?) They are a slighly Baroque feature, but there's no way Hawsmoor would have designed LC. I've also looked at old prints of Stowe (before alteration) I have not noticed the same projections that Mr Millar refers to - the Stowe projections were wider and quite common. Perhaps I have not found the right prints?


The Arbitration Committee has resolved by ] that:
::Now take Little Cassiobury itself it's clumsy and over busy and ill-proportioned - it jars it's amateurish - now look at ] it's in harmony with its proportions. The same can be said of Wooton (yes, unsurprisingly considering the patron, it does have a look of Buckingham House) as for ], I've always thought it looked odd, but anyway, any input from her would have been swept away long ago in the 18th & 19th centuries.
{{ivmbox|Principle 2 of ], ''Private correspondence'', is changed from<br>{{tqq|2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) <s>or their lapse into public domain</s>, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. <s>See Misplaced Pages:Copyrights.</s>}}<br>to<br>{{tqq|2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence), the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.}}}}
For the Arbitration Committee,
]&nbsp;] 23:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
: Discuss this at: '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard|Arbitration motion regarding Durova}}'''
*An intelligent person would leave that disgraceful episode in Misplaced Pages’s ancient history firmly buried in the past. The posting of that far from private email wasn’t the disgrace. The disgrace was why it was necessary to post it. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== FAR notice ==
::I have a lot of documentation regarding the building of Winslow - I really doubt her input there. The patron would not have moved in her social orbit. and neither could he have really afforded Wren, which is why the master just kept an eye on the project and probably provided the drawings. great architects were subject to the whims and ideas of their clients, look at poor old Wren having to keep revising Marlborough House because the Duchess thought she knew best, but no one attributes the house to her.


I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ].<!--Template:FARMessage--> ] (]) 12:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::To conclude, I don't know, but it's my opinion Little Cassiobury was not designed by the same architect(s) as Wooton and Winslow. That's not to say that one or the other was not designed by her. I have not looked at the other houses Mr Millar mentions - I must find the time some day. If she did design them, she must have been a very busy bee. She must have been like Robert Adam - who would have had to produce about 6 houses and 24 fireplaces for every day of his life. ] (]) 17:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
== File:Capone&#39;scastle.jpg listed for discussion ==
] A file that you uploaded or altered, ], has been listed at ]. Please see the ] to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. <!-- Template:Fdw --> ] (]) 18:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)


==Io Saturnalia!==
:::Thanks Giano. Interesting that Hawksmoor also used that design feature, considering Millar's claim of the Wren connection. ''']''' ''']''' 21:04, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::I wouldn't read to much into those projections; they are just a Baroque feature. Look here at . It's very similar to Wooton, but one has to be very careful about attributing a house to an architect just because something looks similar; one could just as easily say that Wilbraham was the secret architect of ] - she wasn't. ] (]) 22:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::While there may be a story behind his claims of Wilbraham's design influence on various buildings, I do find his assertion that she was definitely the architect of a house based on one design feature to be quite bold. Even if it was a favourite design feature of hers, that wouldn't prevent someone else copying the idea. That's generally how ideas spread, after all. The most he could say was that it was probable, unless he had some other connection, such as correspondence between her and the owners. Anyway, thanks for looking into it. ''']''' ''']''' 23:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::::I'm sure that isn't a professional architect alive or dead, who, after preparing plans with full client consultation, has not the heard the dreaded words "''My friend thinks we ought to move the kitchen, bathrooms and all the plumbing.''" I suspect that Lady Wilbraham was such a friend. ] (]) 09:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


{| style="border:2px ; background-color: #FF0000;"
== Infobox ==
|rowspan="2" valign="right" | ]

|rowspan="2" |
bzzt, please see ], - it was your user page designer who converted me to the value of infoboxes, --] (]) 15:38, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 2; vertical-align: left; height: 1.1em;" | '''Io, ]!'''
::* Too late: I have already dealt with the matter. I have no time for drive-by glory hunters seeking to get their name on the history of FAs in such a vandalstic and antagonistic way. They should all be eternally banned along with all other invasive and irritating insects. ] (]) 16:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
|-
::::To late for what, for a look? - "the principal editors' discretion" is a nice phrase I will want to borrow, - yesterday I added an infobox to an ] and maintain, - it was reverted, a funny feeling ;) (now the discussion is on the talk) --] (]) 20:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
::If you create an article and maintain the article, and the principal '''content''' editors all think it's useful, then there's no reason not to have one. ] (]) 21:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC) |style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. ] (]) 15:11, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
|}
:::Did you see this was different? I created AND added the infobox, someone else reverted it. I placed it back, now the question is on the talk. No discussion (so far) for the single cantatas I created (]), but I was twice reverted for a similar one that was , at "the principal editors' discretion" --] (]) 22:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
::::*If you created and maintain the page, you should be allowed the info-box - if you feel it helpful. As I have never edited that page (not even to fix a stray typo) it would be most improper for me to suddenly pop up there and opine. That view is not permitting you to 'own' the page; it's simple good manners and etiquette - a subject on which so many here erroneously claim to be experts. The problem we currently have at Misplaced Pages, is that every tin-pot-tyrant and control freak who fixes a typo, now feels that makes them an expert on the subject and allows them to dictate how the page should be. Andy Mabbet has wandered in off the street and now feels it's his prerogative to alter the page and add unwanted info boxes. It is '''not''' his prerogative and I find it very concerning that such people are now 'Wikipedians in Residence' at esteemed organisations, and permitted to represent Misplaced Pages at such places as Wiki Academy Kosovo 2013. It does not bode well for the next influx of Eastern European editors if they are taught that such ill manners are acceptable behaviour. Someone needs to take Mr Mabbet in hand and tell hi that this behaviour is not acceptable for a leading Misplaced Pages - sometimes, one wonders if anyone is actually running this show. ] (]) 08:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
::::::A few comments: I would love you to read "my" articles and correct, minor changes in place, discussing major changes on the talk! - On ], the only change (I saw) was changing the existing infobox from "invisible" to "building", - I don't know enough about "invisible" to tell if that was needed to make data accessible. - I suggested in the FAC ] to add an infobox, it was treated as a risk for the article to become an FA. - No, I don't know who is "running this show", ideally it should be we the editors of articles we don't own. - Please see my talk for poem and picture of the day ;) --] (]) 09:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

== Unacceptable ==

{{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 February 14|538250377|538247852|this}} and {{Diff|Misplaced Pages:Templates for_discussion/Log/2013 February 14|538252816|538252501|this also}} were utterly unacceptable; as were their edit summaries. Do not do that again. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); ]; ]</span> 17:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 15:12, 17 December 2024

This user may have left Misplaced Pages. Giano has not edited Misplaced Pages since 31 August 2022. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach his aunt, The Lady Catherine de Burgh, who is still an occasional editor.

File:Bramham Park.gif listed for discussion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Bramham Park.gif, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Ixfd64 (talk) 23:50, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:23, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Belton House

This article is under FAR. You can place comments here; Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Belton House/archive1 Desertarun (talk) 22:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award for Belton House

There is a Featured Article Save Award nomination at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review/Belton House/archive1. Please join the discussion to recognize and celebrate editors who helped assure this article would retain its featured status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:45, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Mail call

You have mail (finally). Bishonen | tålk 09:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC).

Talk:Duke of San Donato

This talk page has remained protected since May 2011, when you were involved in the discussion. Since that month there has been only one edit. Is there a reason that it should remain protected? 67.180.143.89 (talk) 22:29, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing Giano with another editor, and in any case, Giano has not edited since last August. I have unprotected that talk page. Cullen328 (talk) 22:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Matthew Brettingham

I have nominated Matthew Brettingham for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

Season's Greetings
Wishing everybody a Happy Holiday Season, and all best wishes for the New Year! The Nativity scene on the Pulpit in the Pisa Baptistery by Nicola Pisano is my Wiki-Christmas card to all for this year. Johnbod (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Amendment request: Durova

Hello Giano,

As one of the original parties to the "Durova" arbitration case, you may be interested in the current amendment request about the Durova case. A motion has been proposed to modify principle 2 by removing copyright-related wording from it.

Best regards,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 04:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Durova

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Principle 2 of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Durova, Private correspondence, is changed from
2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki. See Misplaced Pages:Copyrights.
to
2) In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence), the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.

For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 23:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Arbitration motion regarding Durova
  • An intelligent person would leave that disgraceful episode in Misplaced Pages’s ancient history firmly buried in the past. The posting of that far from private email wasn’t the disgrace. The disgrace was why it was necessary to post it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.238.45 (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Palace of Queluz for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Capone'scastle.jpg listed for discussion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Capone'scastle.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Ixfd64 (talk) 18:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Io Saturnalia!

Io, Saturnalia!
Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:11, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
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