Revision as of 10:59, 18 May 2006 editErdogan Cevher (talk | contribs)74 edits →TRNC/Northern Cyprus← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 12:01, 12 December 2024 edit undoJSwift49 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users11,522 edits →For what reason is the Wa State not added?: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply | ||
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* ] - Discussions of criteria for inclusion, paticularly in relation to ], ], ] and ]; please read before suggesting any changes in relation to these places. | |||
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== Puntland == | |||
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What about ]? It's ''de facto'' independent, although it does not lay claim to independence from Somalia. <span style="border: 1px solid #CC0000;">]]</span> 18:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
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I notice a couple of disputes on this page have both come very close to breaking the ] within the last few hours; please use the talk page constructively to discuss changes. --] 09:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
{{Old AfD multi|date=31 October 2022 |result='''keep''' |page=List of states with limited recognition}} | |||
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==TRNC/Northern Cyprus== | |||
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Can we have a discussion of this dispute here please? At least give a full explanation for the reverts being made, rather than using talk boxes? Even if you feel the proposed changes are pov or deliberatly in bad faith - note I'm not saying that they are or not, its not an area I know about - at least give a rationale here; it makes a mockery of the talk page if you do not --] 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
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{{Archives|bot=lowercase sigmabot III|age=90| | |||
* ] <small>(May 2004–Nov 2006)</small> | |||
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== Add Pakistan to the list == | |||
The dispute is whether we should mention: | |||
Armenia and Pakistan don't have mutual diplomatic recognition, but only Armenia is listed in the article. Add Pakistan to the list. ] (]) 11:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
(Copyright Info: Picture from "Bilim Arastirma Organization". License: {{PD-Turkiye}} The organization do permit the usage as far as the title "Bilim Arastirma Organization" is not given | |||
] | |||
:'''OPPOSE''' Diplomatic recognition and diplomatic relations are two separate things. Country A can still recognize Country B as a country without having diplomatic relations with Country B. ] (]) 04:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
] that includes it's ] ] (bottom left).]] | |||
*''']''' which is an ] (ie. non-bordering province, NOT a country) of ] (which has not recognised TRNC as a federal government), and is bordering ] (possibly threatened for its continuous sovereignity)! If we start including ]s, ]s, ]s, ]s and ] to the list, then it's ok by me. | |||
*''']''' which recognises only the ''Muslim Community'' of TRNC (as if anybody wouldn't); NOT the pseudo-state of TRNC. The source is within the official site, to which <s>]</s> (sorry) ] was kind enough to provide us (), but it is not linkable. Evidently in every conference, there's a list of members (that excludes TRNC) and a separete heading (titled ''Muslim Communities''), that includes ''Muslim Community of Kibris'' (Cyprus). Also, please ] the members-list in the WP article. | |||
== Taiwan doesn't recognize Somaliland as a sovereign state == | |||
* The Above is wrong: Reference: "Alithia" Newspaper of Greek Cypriots, 16/17 May 2006 (Author: Andreas Fantis, Title of the article: "Is there any hope about the solution of Cyprius Issue"). Andreas Wrote: | |||
Representative offices (unlike an embassy) means unofficial relations, not recognition as a '''sovereign''' state. There no official recognition of its independence. Sources provided also confirm this. -- ] (]) 16:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
Turkish Cypriot State was honorized by the decision of the last meeting of OIC and will participate the meetings of OIC not with the title "Muslim Community of Cyprus" but with the title "Turkish Cypriot State" from now on. | |||
:Indeed, as discussed previously at ], ], ], and ]. I have reverted the article change claiming otherwise. ] (]) 03:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
NikoSilver, please read newspapers of your own country. Also, use your real name and surname. | |||
::The Bloomberg article says "So far, only Taiwan recognizes Somaliland as a nation, despite the African region having declared its independence in 1991." ] 11:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
Don't hesitate doing this. Stay behind your ideas (even if yours are false). {{Unsigned|Erdogan Cevher}} | |||
:::"It is an official relationship in numerous respects, but not diplomatic. Put another way, the bilateral partnership is deemed official due to the signatures of two foreign ministers. On the other hand, it differs from Taiwan’s relationships with its more formal diplomatic allies." | |||
:::"Somaliland’s relationship with Taiwan is based on the reality on the ground: respecting Taiwan’s sovereignty and value as a partner, while acknowledging China’s global influence. Taiwan reciprocates this sentiment by recognizing Somalia’s independence and acknowledging Somaliland as a nation based on actual circumstances." ] 12:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
::@] Maybe Ethiopia recognized Somaliland? ] (]) 09:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::They have not. ] (]) 10:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
: Taiwan formally recognized Somaliland but reverse is de facto. ] (]) 13:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Like any country recognizes California as a state but not a sovereign state. -- ] (]) 15:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::No, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of diplomacy. To be fair though Sharouser is also wrong, neither extends full diplomatic recognition to each other (which is despite its name suggesting otherwise the only kind of recognition this page is concerned with) but neither treats the other as part of another power (they aren't consulates subordiante to a head national mission, they're embassy level bodies who report directly back to the home country) ] (]) 16:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::@] Have you read and ?! ] (]) 09:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:'''OPPOSE''' It is a one-way recognition. The ] has recognized ] as a ], but Somaliland has only recognized Taiwan as a de facto independent political entity. Similar to ] (which also has a one-way recognition from Taiwan), Somaliland's ultimate goal is universal recognition and membership of the ]. It can't achieve that goal without gaining recognition from the ], therefore it will/can not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state. ] (]) 02:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
== In the image, Artsakh is coloured red, which is a mistake as it is not a UN member state. == | |||
It should be coloured blue. ] (]) 21:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
*'''Turkish Peace Action''' in the wording to replace '''Turkish invasion'''. Had it been a "peace action", Turkey would have taken the ] Peace prize, instead of international non-recognition. | |||
:It's Armenia not Artsakh on the map. Artsakh no longer exists on the map. -- ] (]) 21:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== For what reason is the Wa State not added? == | |||
:That's about it. Any comments? ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 17:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
This is just a question. I know it says "Subnational entities and regions that function as de facto independent states, with the central government exercising little or no control over their territory, but that do not explicitly claim to be independent" are not included, but the other examples (Rojava, Puntland, and Kurdistan) aren't even de facto independent, just de facto autonomous, as they must follow civil law of their sovereign nation, unlike the Wa State. Gaza is de facto independent, but arguably doesn't fit the criteria of "efficient government" as Hamas is a militant group. | |||
The Wa State was at one point was a group primarily reliant on their military but has since established a fully de facto independent government. This can also extend to Chinland, although Chinland's diplomatic relations are severely lacking. That can't be said for the Wa State though, as they have strong diplomatic ties to China. China and the Wa State conduct relations completely outside of Burmese sovereignty. | |||
:Peace action does seem a very odd word for an invasion... even if you're looking from a Turkish pov. OIC seems a ] body (though your WP:BEANS link confuses me somewhat). And as for exclaves - well we've not included them up to now so unless it makes claims to countryhood, again, I'd be inclined to agree (though this is all without knowing or going into the situation in detail, so don't take my view as too comprehensive). --] 19:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
While it is true that the Wa State has never declared independence, neither have Cook Islands or Niue. The declarative theory of statehood never lists such a thing. ] (]) 17:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Ha ha! The ] has to do with someone inserting some kind of information is some article... Sorry for thinking that the above was self-explanatory and not getting in the trouble to discuss... ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 20:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:What we need to include it is reliable sources calling it "de facto independent" or something similar. I think the conflict in Myanmar has gone on for a long time already so there must be scholarly sources about it. ]<sub>]</sub> 19:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Yeah...what he said. ;) <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">]</span> 20:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::https://burma.irrawaddy.com/article/2021/01/25/237048.html This link is an indepth explanation of how the Wa State has discussed attaining recognized statehood, and exist outside of the Burmese government. | |||
::These lines are the most interesting, but the rest of it is also a good read: | |||
::"ဝ ဒေသဟာ ပြည်ထောင်စုရဲ့နယ်မြေ အစိတ်အပိုင်းဖြစ်ပေမယ့် အစိုးရအာဏာ သက်ရောက်ခြင်း မရှိတာကြောင့် နိုင်ငံ တကာက လာရောက်တဲ့ ခရီးသွားတွေ စီးပွားရေး လုပ်ငန်းရှင်တွေက ဝ ခေါင်းဆောင်တွေနဲ့ တိုက်ရိုက် ဆက်ဆံနိုင်ခြင်း မရှိသလို ဝ ဒေသဟာလည်း တားမြစ် ဧရိယာအဖြစ် အစိုးရက သတ်မှတ်ထားတာပါ။ | |||
::မည်သို့ဆိုစေ ဝ ဒေသကတော့ အစိုးရ၊ တပ်မတော်တို့ရဲ့စွက်ဖက်မှု မရှိ၊ ဝ ခေါင်းဆောင်တွေပဲ တိုက်ရိုက်အုပ်ချုပ်၊ ဝတပ် ကပဲ ဒေသကို အပြည့်အဝ လုံခြုံရေးယူပြီး ကိုယ်ပိုင်ပြဋ္ဌာန်းခွင့်ကို အပြည့်အဝ ရရှိနေတဲ့ အခြေအနေပါ။" | |||
::"Although the Wa region is part of the Union territory, it is not affected by the government's authority, so international tourists and businessmen cannot interact directly with the Wa leaders, and the Wa region is designated by the government as a prohibited area. | |||
::In any case, the Wa region government, No military intervention, Only the leaders directly govern, It is a situation where the Wa Army has fully secured the region and has full self-determination." | |||
::https://www.lifeweek.com.cn/article/82074 This link goes over the entire history of the Wa State. | |||
::Here are some notable lines: | |||
::"其官方地位是缅甸联邦中的一部,实际上该地区由一个独立的地方武装控制。" | |||
::"Its official status is part of the Union of Burma, but in practice the region is controlled by an independent local armed group." | |||
::"佤族知识分子,无论在佤邦、中国、缅甸还是泰国,都广泛传播佤族 “真实的 ”文化和形象,为佤邦的相对主权做辩护。" | |||
::"Wa intellectuals, whether in Wa State, China, Myanmar or Thailand, have widely disseminated the “real” culture and image of the Wa people and defended the relative sovereignty of the Wa State." | |||
::https://m.jiemian.com/article/496039.html Another link explaining its sovereignty and independence | |||
::"佤族人同时拒绝过缅甸与中国两方政府,他们自愿成为野蛮人──这个区域内唯一真正独立又自治的少数民族。不论住在云南还是佤邦的佤族人,他们只对一个世界上没有国家会正式承认的政府效忠。" | |||
::"The Wa have rejected both the Burmese and Chinese governments, and have willingly become barbarians—the only truly independent and self-governing ethnic minority in the region. Whether living in Yunnan or Wa State, the Wa owe allegiance only to a government that no country in the world will formally recognize." ] (]) 01:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::Existing outside of the control of the central government is not the same as claiming and/or exercising statehood. The situation in Myanmar is covered by many observers, if a proto-state is established there will be a lot of sources on the matter. ] (]) 06:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::It is the same as achieving statehood is said entity fulfills the rest of the criteria, which the Wa State does extremely well. The page of the Wa State already explains how China and the Wa State interact diplomatically, albeit informally. | |||
::::the others mentioned as “not claiming statehood” do not have any relations with other nations besides Gaza, which arguably doesn’t have an efficient government as I’ve stated. | |||
::::there are also a lot of websites in Burmese and in Chinese covering the Wa State’s sovereignty. Far more than those that cover Niue and Cook Islands’s recognition. | |||
::::Furthermore, it isn’t just the central government. The Wa state is independent from the entire nation as the quotes above explain. ] (]) 11:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The case for adding them would be more convincing if we had high-quality sources calling them an "unrecognised state" or "de facto independent" or smth like that. ]<sub>]</sub> 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/cssh/2019/09/03/the-everyday-politics-of-conscription-in-the-wa-state-of-myanmar/ Here is a source that claims it is de facto independent. | |||
::::::” Located along Myanmar’s northeastern border with China, the boundaries of the Wa State do not appear on Google maps. Officially part of the Shan State of Myanmar, in reality, it is a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army, and Myanmar’s national government and its army, the Tatmadaw, have no say in its internal affairs.” | |||
::::::here’s another one: https://www.irrawaddy.com/from-the-archive/who-are-the-wa-2.html | |||
::::::“ Already Myanmar’s largest rebel group with an estimated 30,000 soldiers and 20,000 auxiliary troops and a sophisticated arsenal of weapons, much of it purchased from China, the announcement renewed questions about how long the Myanmar government can tolerate a de facto independent state within its borders.” | |||
::::::Another (and this one is very in depth): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00141844.2021.2007153#d1e176 | |||
::::::“ The Wa State of Myanmar is a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army, the United Wa State Army.” | |||
::::::Another: https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/we-dont-want-to-be-slaves-meet-the-peoples-liberation-army-of-burma/ | |||
::::::“United Wa State Party (UWSP), which now governs the de facto independent Wa State in eastern Myanmar.” | |||
::::::Another, this one is from Cambridge: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/comparative-studies-in-society-and-history/article/sovereignty-as-care-acquaintances-mutuality-and-scale-in-the-wa-state-of-myanmar/02ABC5B081AD0F1ADDA8C0BA5A30044A | |||
::::::“ The concrete examples are the relationships of care between commanders, soldiers, and villagers in the Wa State of Myanmar, a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army. | |||
::::::Another: https://thediplomat.com/2022/12/how-myanmars-united-wa-state-army-responded-to-covid-19/ | |||
::::::“Myanmar’s Wa State is a de facto independent state tightly governed by the United Wa State Party (UWSP).” ] (]) 03:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Upon further research, I found this as well: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227828571/how-narcotics-have-shaped-everything-for-the-wa-an-ethnic-minority-in-myanmar | |||
::::::"It really is a world unto its own. It has its own army with more troops than Sweden. It has high-tech weapons. They collect taxes. They even issue their own driver's licenses. You won't find it on any globe. You won't find it on any map. But it absolutely functions like a sovereign nation-state." ] (]) 23:40, 1 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::Adding more to the previous sources, here is one that calls it an unrecognized AND independent state: https://missionsbox.org/news/making-sense-myanmar-chin-kachin-shan-wa-states-uwsa/ | |||
:::::"Wa is an officially unrecognized, independent state controlled by the communist-aligned United Wa State Army (UWSA)." ] (]) 17:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:'''SUPPORT''' ] should be included as a de facto state without any recognition. ] (]) 03:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Wa State has never declared independence (like Somaliland did) nor has it ever asserted that it was a sovereign country (Like Tatarstan did in 1990 and Australia did). Accordingly, it fails the declarative theory of statehood. Niue and the Cook Islands are recognized as independent by other countries, and therefore are included under the constitutive theory of statehood. If Wa state was recognized by another country as being sovereign, it too would pass the inclusion criteria despite not declaring independence. The only rebel polity in Burma to have actually declared independence was ]'s Shan State Restoration Council, it controlled and held territory in the early 1990's, the Shan State Restoration Council no longer exists with a large number of its cadres surrendering along with Khun Sa himself in 1996. A rump faction led by ] refused to surrender and rebranded themselves as ]. I have never seen any sources which state that Shan State Army South considers itself to be an independent state or that it asserts itself to be a successor in interest to Khun Sa's "Shan State" that declared independence in 1991. No other Burmese rebel group that controls territory has actually declared itself to be sovereign or independent.] (]) 14:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::You are wrong. ] declared independence on 12 May 2014 with the establishment of the '''People's Republic of Kokang'''. | |||
::Source: https://www.sohu.com/a/150976246_794891 {{in lang|zh}} ] (]) 07:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
::This page isn’t about the constitutive theory of statehood. It’s explicitly about the declarative theory of statehood. Rojava, and Puntland still follow civil law of another nation, therefore don’t fit it. Gaza lacks institutional cohesion and doesn’t have an efficient government, therefore doesn’t fit it. The Wa State fully fictions as a sovereign nation in every way, matches the criteria, and can conduct diplomatic relations. It’s a state. ] (]) 03:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I '''oppose''' adding Wa State for now, as reliable sources still don't say it claims outright independence from Myanmar. | |||
:*Foreign Policy (2024) {{tq|Though the state is nominally part of Myanmar, the Wa have their own political structures...}} | |||
:*Crisis Group (2024) {{tq|The UWSA accepts that its territory is part of the Myanmar state, but it administers these lands almost completely autonomously from Naypyitaw}} (also wrote an article in Foreign Policy saying the same thing ) | |||
:*Council on Foreign Relations (2022) {{tq|The UWSA, by far the most powerful ethnic armed organization, controls an autonomous region within Myanmar's northeastern Shan State...}} | |||
:*Nikkei Asia (2022) {{tq|Bertil Lintner, a Swedish author who is a leading authority on Myanmar, said Wa leaders have made no new political demands since the military seized control in Naypyitaw, such as a push for formal independence. An informal peace agreement ... has lasted since 1989, giving the Wa self-government in return for recognition of Myanmar sovereignty.}} | |||
:*Burma News International (2019) quotes leader as saying {{tq|Wa State is a part of the Union of Burma and cannot be cut out of the union. We won't demand an independent Wa state or ask for secession.}} | |||
:] 21:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::All this confirms what I said though. That it is de facto independent but claims Burmese sovereignty. The criteria of statehood says nothing about self-recognition ] (]) 23:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I think intent matters here. Autonomous regions that don’t claim to be sovereign states should not be considered states, and if we included Wa State we would have to include many others. Looking at the criteria, "capacity to enter into relations" with other states ] greatly diminished if you don’t actually claim independence. ] 12:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 November 2024 == | |||
*{{flagicon|Northern Cyprus}} The ''']''' was set up in northern ] after the Turkish Peace Action on Cyprus in ] due to a local Greek Cypriot coup d'etat to overthrow the government and to unify the island with ]. It was proclaimed the ''Turkish Federated State of Cyprus'' in ]. This state later declared independence under the current name in ]. It is recognized by ], and the ]. TRNC was accepted as "Turkish Cypriot State" by the Organization of Islamic Conference. TRNC and Republic of Cyprus are on the threshold of being separated like Checkoslovakia = Check Rep + Slovak Rep after the rejection of United nation's Annan Plan by Greek Cypriots. Note: Annan plan aimed at reunification of island. | |||
{{edit extended-protected|List of states with limited recognition|answered=yes}} | |||
Add ] to the See Also section. ] (]) 19:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
:Done... - ] (]) 21:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC) | |||
== The Order of Malta should be in the UN observers section == | |||
"Turkish Cypriot State" by the OIC.(Ref:Web of OIC: http://www.oic-oci.org/), click “About OIC”, then click “Observers” to see that TRNC is under the “States” heading with name “T. Cypriot State" | |||
2. Nakhichevan recognizes TRNC. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/Nakhichevan under the “Disputes” heading. | |||
The Order of Malta fully fulfills the criteria of statehood | |||
The issue of Peace Action / Invasion? | |||
How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks before 1974? Answer: Thousands of Turkish Cypriots (more than 100000) and hundreds of Greek Cypriots before 1974. (That is why the population of Greeks in the island well exceeds that of Turks in the island) | |||
Territory: The territory owned by the order is legally considered extraterritorial, however it functions as a completely sovereign state. In fact, the linked source already explains this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LDb9lFYjVPUnFkaUVjVVdVUnM/view?resourcekey=0-hw3Xj3KI7CwVF65au7CF7g | |||
How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks after 1974? | |||
Answer: Total number does not exceed 5 from both sides. | |||
"It is worth remembering that accredited Maltese representatives to the States enjoy immunities and | |||
Then, How a man having brain can claim that Turkish action is an invasion? That action is certainly a peace action and stopped deaths from both sides. | |||
privileges not as international officials, but rather in their capacity as diplomatic officials, with the rank | |||
of Ambassador or Minister plenipotentiary. On the one hand, the clear territorial separation of | |||
sovereign areas that exists between the Italian State and the State of Vatican City does not exist | |||
between the Order of Malta and the Italian State, but neither can it be said that the treatment given to | |||
the headquarters of the Order (Aventine, Via Condotti) is, simply, that reserved for the headquarters of | |||
diplomatic missions accredited to the Italian State. | |||
In fact, the headquarters of the Order have diplomatic extraterritoriality (authoritarian acts of any kind – | |||
{{Unsigned|Erdogan Cevher}} | |||
executive, acts of inspection, judicial – cannot take place inside), but in addition, the Italian State | |||
recognizes the exercise, in the headquarters, of the prerogatives of sovereignty. This means that Italian | |||
sovereignty and Maltese sovereignty coexist without overlapping, because the Order exercises | |||
sovereign functions in a wider area than occurs in the diplomatic missions of the States for, although | |||
enjoy extraterritoriality, the guarantees deriving from the privilege of | |||
immunity are constrained to a purely administrative area; the Order, instead, makes use of | |||
extraterritoriality to meet the very acts of sovereign self-determination that are the same as the States | |||
(legislative, judicial, administrative, financial acts)." | |||
Population: Once again, Misplaced Pages already links the fact that it has population: https://archive.org/details/reportfrompracti00sack/mode/2up | |||
"as part of the bargain only three men – the grand master, the lieutenant grand master, and the chancellor – could be citizens there. The other S.M.O.M.ians were to be citizens of the country they lived in." | |||
:Thank you for your input. Your complains can be addressed to ]. ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 13:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
Diplomacy: This one doesn't even need sources. It is a well-known fact the order maintains tons of diplomatic relations and missions, and as this page shows, it even has full recognition from San Marino. | |||
Government: Once again, this is a well-known fact that the Order is an internationally recognized government. | |||
:Interstingly Nachkivan did reciognise North Cypriot sovereignty ; now whether it has the right to do so or not is highly debatable under international law as only other sovereigns are allowed to recgonise sovereignty; but these rules are not set in stone of course. I feel that this might be worth a mention. The OIC is a civil society actor with even less right to recognise sovereignty; this one is more disputable I think, especially as some appear to claim that it is the people who are represented here, not really a state. | |||
Self-recognition: I disagree with this rule being set in place to begin with, but it shouldn't matter as the Order have and do recognize themselves as a sovereign nation, even if they do not recognize their land | |||
*An invasion is an invasion whatever its purpose. Peace action is a modern euphamisim – we didn’t have a ] did we? | |||
One example: https://orderofmaltaamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/OM174_Hospitallers_Summer2023_digital.pdf | |||
*I think talk about coup d’etats etc. is a bit over the top and uncalled for here; let the TRNC page deal with that itself. | |||
"As a sovereign nation, we enjoy diplomatic relations with 112 countries where we have Ambassadors, and, we hope, more countries to follow…. And almost 30 years ago, in 1994 to be precise, we were granted special status as a Permanent Observer at the United Nations and we have full-time Ambassadors serving in Geneva, Vienna and in New York." | |||
*Not quite sure about the Czech Republic analogy… this is opinion this bit. | |||
And another example: https://ukraineembassy.orderofmalta.int/en/news/the-passports-of-the-sovereign-military-order-of-malta/ | |||
So how about: | |||
"It’s also a sovereign nation, with United Nations observer status and its own constitution, but, unusually, without any land. It issues car license plates – without having any roads to drive them on – and its own stamps, currency and passports." ] (]) 00:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::{{flagicon|Northern Cyprus}} The ''']''' was set up in northern ] after the Turkish invasion on Cyprus in ]. It was proclaimed the ''Turkish Federated State of Cyprus'' in ] and declared independence in ]. It is recognised only by ], though the non-sovereign ] has also recognised it. UN proposals to unify the two Cypriot states have since been unsuccessful.ط | |||
:We already have ] that listed that Order, anyway who claims that SMOM is a "sovereign state"? Ehh. ] (]) 10:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::The order themselves recognize themselves as a nation. I provided the links already. ] (]) 17:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
] 14:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::Sorry, it's not a state. States have borders, at least putative ones. Similarly, if the Holy See didn't have a landmass where it is sovereign and that is not part of any other country (i.e., if Vatican City was just a neighborhood in Rome), then the Holy See would be a UN Observer but would not be a sovereign state. ] (]) 14:51, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::"On the one hand, the clear territorial separation of sovereign areas that exists between the Italian State and the State of Vatican City does not exist between the Order of Malta and the Italian State, but neither can it be said that the treatment given to the headquarters of the Order (Aventine, Via Condotti) is, simply, that reserved for the headquarters of diplomatic missions accredited to the Italian State." | |||
:Thanks Rob for your kind attempt for a compromise in this. Though not necessarily disagreeable, I think that: | |||
::::" the Order, instead, makes use of extraterritoriality to meet the very acts of sovereign self-determination that are the same as the States (legislative, judicial, administrative, financial acts)."" | |||
:* Nakhichevan is legally a province or something analogous. | |||
::::Yes, while it is true the order has no DE JURE borders, it's status gives it DE FACTO borders in which the Italian government has no jurisdiction. ] (]) 21:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:* OIC we agree (thanks) | |||
:::Nation and state are different things. The ] are a nation, but ] is not a ]. ] (]) 07:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:* UN mentioning is ok by me, --added. | |||
:SMOM is a ] but not in the same category as the Holy See or Palestine. It is an observer entity similar to the Red Cross or International Olympic Committee. It is not a state since it claims neither statehood nor territory, so I think we should keep the Order of Malta in a separate category: entities recognized as sovereign that aren't states. ] 21:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I strongly believe that extensive analyses are not applicable in this "'''''List''' of...''" and strongly suggest that further details are covered in the respective articles (which is ]). | |||
:Fmore, keep in mind that there is only one user doing these reverts lately, who turns out to be a ]. ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 14:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Agreed entirely; the TRNC entry was preivously much shorter than the others anyway and I don't see a need to add more than we have now; it can be tempting sometimes to ignore the contributions of those who refuse to play ball with the wikipedia process but a couple of interesting points were raised, even if it was from a pov manner. --] 23:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you. To add to your point, if we start elaborating the Turkish POV (on ], ] orgs, ''Turkish Peace action'' etc etc), then under ], imagine what the emphasis/size of the Greek POV and the International POV should be. After that, we'll need to rename the article to ] and tiny details about unrecognized countries]]... ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 23:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::And btw, I agree to of yours too. ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 16:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::I just saw that there were three more attempted reverts by ], despite the talk, despite the sources, despite the agreement of the other editors and after 3 or 4 blocks for ]. I don't know if the rest of the editors agree, but I think that this behaviour has crossed the border of ]. Waiting for your comments and possible action. ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 15:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I seriously considered obtaining a ] on his behaviour; I thought I'd let him get himself banned for antoher 3rr first, however, in the hope that an extended ban might show him how to edit / put him off the topic. In the event of an extended period of 2 reverts a day, then I think we could go further with this. --] 21:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Ok. Just check also in the intro par of ]... ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 22:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::FYI, I've reported Erdogan for 3RR again - that'll be the fourth 3RR block for him within 5 days. Guess they'll make it a longer one this time. ] ] 06:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::Wanna bet a beer he's gonna do it again? ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hey, weren't you the guy who recently complained you didn't get to perform enough justified reverts? ;-) ] ] 09:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::Ha ha! Everybody needs his dose here I guess! Oh, and we have a in ] in case ] is collecting evidence for that ] vio. <s>And how about that name ]?</s> ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Eh, let's be fair to the guy - "Erdoğan" is just very common in Turkish, both as a first and a family name. Let's not make fun of that, it may very well be his real name. And I'm not quite getting what you mean by WP:POINT? He's just edit-warring, that's a different kind of thing, isn't it? ] ] 19:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Sorry, I don't know that many Turks to have encountered the name before. I always thought it was a surname and it seemed to me like it wanted to sound more like the PM of Turkey. Point stricken. | |||
::::::::Now for the other thing: He's not just edit warring. We have invited him repeatedly in the talk, but appart from the somewhat irrelevant comment above, we have received no further response to what 4 editors here (and a couple more outside the talk) seem to consider logical and obvious. We only communicate through edit-summaries, where we reply that OIC is a civil society org, and that Nakhicevan is a province, and that ''peace action'' (!!!) is peculiar wording for invasion, but he responds with the same irrelevant argumentation. He further expanded his POV to ]. What can we do after 3-4 3rr blocks he's already had? I am sure there will be more, and that there won't be any comment whatsoever here, because the thing is so obvious (even for blind or uninformed) that at first I and the other counter-reverters didn't even want to discuss it formally. I don't know how you call this, but I definitely think it is ''disruption of WP''. ] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 23:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: Ah, no doubt that the blind edit warring is disruptive, absolutely. After all, that's why we're getting him blocked all the time. But ] is really about something else in my understanding, it's about subtle ways of disrupting by doing something you don't really mean, like AfD'ing good articles in order to demonstrate how other people's AfD criteria are wrong, that kind of thing. ] ] 06:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::Ok Mr."Syntax Error", maybe you're right. Let's see where that goes...] <sup><font size="-2">] ] ]</font></sup> 11:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC) | |||
== State of Palestine == | |||
What is the official status of Gaza strip after the ] in 2005? |
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Add Pakistan to the list
Armenia and Pakistan don't have mutual diplomatic recognition, but only Armenia is listed in the article. Add Pakistan to the list. 212.73.95.146 (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- OPPOSE Diplomatic recognition and diplomatic relations are two separate things. Country A can still recognize Country B as a country without having diplomatic relations with Country B. 58.152.51.240 (talk) 04:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Taiwan doesn't recognize Somaliland as a sovereign state
Representative offices (unlike an embassy) means unofficial relations, not recognition as a sovereign state. There no official recognition of its independence. Sources provided also confirm this. -- Svito3 (talk) 16:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, as discussed previously at /Archive 14#Somaliland and Taiwan, /Archive 14#Somaliland, /Archive 15#Move Somaliland to "States recognised only by other non-UN member states"?, and /Archive 15#Map out of date? Somaliland and Taiwan?. I have reverted the article change claiming otherwise. CMD (talk) 03:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Bloomberg article says "So far, only Taiwan recognizes Somaliland as a nation, despite the African region having declared its independence in 1991." JSwift49 11:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- "It is an official relationship in numerous respects, but not diplomatic. Put another way, the bilateral partnership is deemed official due to the signatures of two foreign ministers. On the other hand, it differs from Taiwan’s relationships with its more formal diplomatic allies."
- "Somaliland’s relationship with Taiwan is based on the reality on the ground: respecting Taiwan’s sovereignty and value as a partner, while acknowledging China’s global influence. Taiwan reciprocates this sentiment by recognizing Somalia’s independence and acknowledging Somaliland as a nation based on actual circumstances." JSwift49 12:02, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Chipmunkdavis Maybe Ethiopia recognized Somaliland? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- They have not. CMD (talk) 10:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
- The Bloomberg article says "So far, only Taiwan recognizes Somaliland as a nation, despite the African region having declared its independence in 1991." JSwift49 11:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Taiwan formally recognized Somaliland but reverse is de facto. Sharouser (talk) 13:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Like any country recognizes California as a state but not a sovereign state. -- Svito3 (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of diplomacy. To be fair though Sharouser is also wrong, neither extends full diplomatic recognition to each other (which is despite its name suggesting otherwise the only kind of recognition this page is concerned with) but neither treats the other as part of another power (they aren't consulates subordiante to a head national mission, they're embassy level bodies who report directly back to the home country) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Svito3 Have you read and ?! Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- Like any country recognizes California as a state but not a sovereign state. -- Svito3 (talk) 15:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- OPPOSE It is a one-way recognition. The Republic of China (Taiwan) has recognized Somaliland as a sovereign state, but Somaliland has only recognized Taiwan as a de facto independent political entity. Similar to Kosovo (which also has a one-way recognition from Taiwan), Somaliland's ultimate goal is universal recognition and membership of the United Nations. It can't achieve that goal without gaining recognition from the People's Republic of China, therefore it will/can not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state. 58.152.90.176 (talk) 02:55, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
In the image, Artsakh is coloured red, which is a mistake as it is not a UN member state.
It should be coloured blue. Timo2727 (talk) 21:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's Armenia not Artsakh on the map. Artsakh no longer exists on the map. -- Svito3 (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
For what reason is the Wa State not added?
This is just a question. I know it says "Subnational entities and regions that function as de facto independent states, with the central government exercising little or no control over their territory, but that do not explicitly claim to be independent" are not included, but the other examples (Rojava, Puntland, and Kurdistan) aren't even de facto independent, just de facto autonomous, as they must follow civil law of their sovereign nation, unlike the Wa State. Gaza is de facto independent, but arguably doesn't fit the criteria of "efficient government" as Hamas is a militant group.
The Wa State was at one point was a group primarily reliant on their military but has since established a fully de facto independent government. This can also extend to Chinland, although Chinland's diplomatic relations are severely lacking. That can't be said for the Wa State though, as they have strong diplomatic ties to China. China and the Wa State conduct relations completely outside of Burmese sovereignty.
While it is true that the Wa State has never declared independence, neither have Cook Islands or Niue. The declarative theory of statehood never lists such a thing. Actually1a2a3a (talk) 17:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- What we need to include it is reliable sources calling it "de facto independent" or something similar. I think the conflict in Myanmar has gone on for a long time already so there must be scholarly sources about it. Alaexis¿question? 19:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- https://burma.irrawaddy.com/article/2021/01/25/237048.html This link is an indepth explanation of how the Wa State has discussed attaining recognized statehood, and exist outside of the Burmese government.
- These lines are the most interesting, but the rest of it is also a good read:
- "ဝ ဒေသဟာ ပြည်ထောင်စုရဲ့နယ်မြေ အစိတ်အပိုင်းဖြစ်ပေမယ့် အစိုးရအာဏာ သက်ရောက်ခြင်း မရှိတာကြောင့် နိုင်ငံ တကာက လာရောက်တဲ့ ခရီးသွားတွေ စီးပွားရေး လုပ်ငန်းရှင်တွေက ဝ ခေါင်းဆောင်တွေနဲ့ တိုက်ရိုက် ဆက်ဆံနိုင်ခြင်း မရှိသလို ဝ ဒေသဟာလည်း တားမြစ် ဧရိယာအဖြစ် အစိုးရက သတ်မှတ်ထားတာပါ။
- မည်သို့ဆိုစေ ဝ ဒေသကတော့ အစိုးရ၊ တပ်မတော်တို့ရဲ့စွက်ဖက်မှု မရှိ၊ ဝ ခေါင်းဆောင်တွေပဲ တိုက်ရိုက်အုပ်ချုပ်၊ ဝတပ် ကပဲ ဒေသကို အပြည့်အဝ လုံခြုံရေးယူပြီး ကိုယ်ပိုင်ပြဋ္ဌာန်းခွင့်ကို အပြည့်အဝ ရရှိနေတဲ့ အခြေအနေပါ။"
- "Although the Wa region is part of the Union territory, it is not affected by the government's authority, so international tourists and businessmen cannot interact directly with the Wa leaders, and the Wa region is designated by the government as a prohibited area.
- In any case, the Wa region government, No military intervention, Only the leaders directly govern, It is a situation where the Wa Army has fully secured the region and has full self-determination."
- https://www.lifeweek.com.cn/article/82074 This link goes over the entire history of the Wa State.
- Here are some notable lines:
- "其官方地位是缅甸联邦中的一部,实际上该地区由一个独立的地方武装控制。"
- "Its official status is part of the Union of Burma, but in practice the region is controlled by an independent local armed group."
- "佤族知识分子,无论在佤邦、中国、缅甸还是泰国,都广泛传播佤族 “真实的 ”文化和形象,为佤邦的相对主权做辩护。"
- "Wa intellectuals, whether in Wa State, China, Myanmar or Thailand, have widely disseminated the “real” culture and image of the Wa people and defended the relative sovereignty of the Wa State."
- https://m.jiemian.com/article/496039.html Another link explaining its sovereignty and independence
- "佤族人同时拒绝过缅甸与中国两方政府,他们自愿成为野蛮人──这个区域内唯一真正独立又自治的少数民族。不论住在云南还是佤邦的佤族人,他们只对一个世界上没有国家会正式承认的政府效忠。"
- "The Wa have rejected both the Burmese and Chinese governments, and have willingly become barbarians—the only truly independent and self-governing ethnic minority in the region. Whether living in Yunnan or Wa State, the Wa owe allegiance only to a government that no country in the world will formally recognize." Actually1a2a3a (talk) 01:13, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- Existing outside of the control of the central government is not the same as claiming and/or exercising statehood. The situation in Myanmar is covered by many observers, if a proto-state is established there will be a lot of sources on the matter. CMD (talk) 06:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- It is the same as achieving statehood is said entity fulfills the rest of the criteria, which the Wa State does extremely well. The page of the Wa State already explains how China and the Wa State interact diplomatically, albeit informally.
- the others mentioned as “not claiming statehood” do not have any relations with other nations besides Gaza, which arguably doesn’t have an efficient government as I’ve stated.
- there are also a lot of websites in Burmese and in Chinese covering the Wa State’s sovereignty. Far more than those that cover Niue and Cook Islands’s recognition.
- Furthermore, it isn’t just the central government. The Wa state is independent from the entire nation as the quotes above explain. Actually1a2a3a (talk) 11:06, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- The case for adding them would be more convincing if we had high-quality sources calling them an "unrecognised state" or "de facto independent" or smth like that. Alaexis¿question? 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/cssh/2019/09/03/the-everyday-politics-of-conscription-in-the-wa-state-of-myanmar/ Here is a source that claims it is de facto independent.
- ” Located along Myanmar’s northeastern border with China, the boundaries of the Wa State do not appear on Google maps. Officially part of the Shan State of Myanmar, in reality, it is a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army, and Myanmar’s national government and its army, the Tatmadaw, have no say in its internal affairs.”
- here’s another one: https://www.irrawaddy.com/from-the-archive/who-are-the-wa-2.html
- “ Already Myanmar’s largest rebel group with an estimated 30,000 soldiers and 20,000 auxiliary troops and a sophisticated arsenal of weapons, much of it purchased from China, the announcement renewed questions about how long the Myanmar government can tolerate a de facto independent state within its borders.”
- Another (and this one is very in depth): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00141844.2021.2007153#d1e176
- “ The Wa State of Myanmar is a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army, the United Wa State Army.”
- Another: https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/we-dont-want-to-be-slaves-meet-the-peoples-liberation-army-of-burma/
- “United Wa State Party (UWSP), which now governs the de facto independent Wa State in eastern Myanmar.”
- Another, this one is from Cambridge: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/comparative-studies-in-society-and-history/article/sovereignty-as-care-acquaintances-mutuality-and-scale-in-the-wa-state-of-myanmar/02ABC5B081AD0F1ADDA8C0BA5A30044A
- “ The concrete examples are the relationships of care between commanders, soldiers, and villagers in the Wa State of Myanmar, a de-facto state governed by an insurgent army.
- Another: https://thediplomat.com/2022/12/how-myanmars-united-wa-state-army-responded-to-covid-19/
- “Myanmar’s Wa State is a de facto independent state tightly governed by the United Wa State Party (UWSP).” Actually1a2a3a (talk) 03:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- Upon further research, I found this as well: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/30/1227828571/how-narcotics-have-shaped-everything-for-the-wa-an-ethnic-minority-in-myanmar
- "It really is a world unto its own. It has its own army with more troops than Sweden. It has high-tech weapons. They collect taxes. They even issue their own driver's licenses. You won't find it on any globe. You won't find it on any map. But it absolutely functions like a sovereign nation-state." 2600:382:10B0:26EF:E188:42FF:7CFD:5A4F (talk) 23:40, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- Adding more to the previous sources, here is one that calls it an unrecognized AND independent state: https://missionsbox.org/news/making-sense-myanmar-chin-kachin-shan-wa-states-uwsa/
- "Wa is an officially unrecognized, independent state controlled by the communist-aligned United Wa State Army (UWSA)." Actually1a2a3a (talk) 17:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
- The case for adding them would be more convincing if we had high-quality sources calling them an "unrecognised state" or "de facto independent" or smth like that. Alaexis¿question? 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Existing outside of the control of the central government is not the same as claiming and/or exercising statehood. The situation in Myanmar is covered by many observers, if a proto-state is established there will be a lot of sources on the matter. CMD (talk) 06:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
- SUPPORT Wa State should be included as a de facto state without any recognition. 58.152.90.176 (talk) 03:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
- Wa State has never declared independence (like Somaliland did) nor has it ever asserted that it was a sovereign country (Like Tatarstan did in 1990 and Australia did). Accordingly, it fails the declarative theory of statehood. Niue and the Cook Islands are recognized as independent by other countries, and therefore are included under the constitutive theory of statehood. If Wa state was recognized by another country as being sovereign, it too would pass the inclusion criteria despite not declaring independence. The only rebel polity in Burma to have actually declared independence was Khun Sa's Shan State Restoration Council, it controlled and held territory in the early 1990's, the Shan State Restoration Council no longer exists with a large number of its cadres surrendering along with Khun Sa himself in 1996. A rump faction led by Yawd Serk refused to surrender and rebranded themselves as Shan State Army South. I have never seen any sources which state that Shan State Army South considers itself to be an independent state or that it asserts itself to be a successor in interest to Khun Sa's "Shan State" that declared independence in 1991. No other Burmese rebel group that controls territory has actually declared itself to be sovereign or independent.XavierGreen (talk) 14:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
- You are wrong. Kokang declared independence on 12 May 2014 with the establishment of the People's Republic of Kokang.
- Source: https://www.sohu.com/a/150976246_794891 (in Chinese) 203.46.37.2 (talk) 07:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- This page isn’t about the constitutive theory of statehood. It’s explicitly about the declarative theory of statehood. Rojava, and Puntland still follow civil law of another nation, therefore don’t fit it. Gaza lacks institutional cohesion and doesn’t have an efficient government, therefore doesn’t fit it. The Wa State fully fictions as a sovereign nation in every way, matches the criteria, and can conduct diplomatic relations. It’s a state. Actually1a2a3a (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
- I oppose adding Wa State for now, as reliable sources still don't say it claims outright independence from Myanmar.
- Foreign Policy (2024)
Though the state is nominally part of Myanmar, the Wa have their own political structures...
- Crisis Group (2024)
The UWSA accepts that its territory is part of the Myanmar state, but it administers these lands almost completely autonomously from Naypyitaw
(also wrote an article in Foreign Policy saying the same thing ) - Council on Foreign Relations (2022)
The UWSA, by far the most powerful ethnic armed organization, controls an autonomous region within Myanmar's northeastern Shan State...
- Nikkei Asia (2022)
Bertil Lintner, a Swedish author who is a leading authority on Myanmar, said Wa leaders have made no new political demands since the military seized control in Naypyitaw, such as a push for formal independence. An informal peace agreement ... has lasted since 1989, giving the Wa self-government in return for recognition of Myanmar sovereignty.
- Burma News International (2019) quotes leader as saying
Wa State is a part of the Union of Burma and cannot be cut out of the union. We won't demand an independent Wa state or ask for secession.
- Foreign Policy (2024)
- JSwift49 21:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- All this confirms what I said though. That it is de facto independent but claims Burmese sovereignty. The criteria of statehood says nothing about self-recognition Actually1a2a3a (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think intent matters here. Autonomous regions that don’t claim to be sovereign states should not be considered states, and if we included Wa State we would have to include many others. Looking at the criteria, "capacity to enter into relations" with other states would seem to be greatly diminished if you don’t actually claim independence. JSwift49 12:01, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- All this confirms what I said though. That it is de facto independent but claims Burmese sovereignty. The criteria of statehood says nothing about self-recognition Actually1a2a3a (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 November 2024
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Add List of historical unrecognized states to the See Also section. Infrish 2 (talk) 19:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- Done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 21:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
The Order of Malta should be in the UN observers section
The Order of Malta fully fulfills the criteria of statehood
Territory: The territory owned by the order is legally considered extraterritorial, however it functions as a completely sovereign state. In fact, the linked source already explains this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LDb9lFYjVPUnFkaUVjVVdVUnM/view?resourcekey=0-hw3Xj3KI7CwVF65au7CF7g
"It is worth remembering that accredited Maltese representatives to the States enjoy immunities and privileges not as international officials, but rather in their capacity as diplomatic officials, with the rank of Ambassador or Minister plenipotentiary. On the one hand, the clear territorial separation of sovereign areas that exists between the Italian State and the State of Vatican City does not exist between the Order of Malta and the Italian State, but neither can it be said that the treatment given to the headquarters of the Order (Aventine, Via Condotti) is, simply, that reserved for the headquarters of diplomatic missions accredited to the Italian State.
In fact, the headquarters of the Order have diplomatic extraterritoriality (authoritarian acts of any kind – executive, acts of inspection, judicial – cannot take place inside), but in addition, the Italian State recognizes the exercise, in the headquarters, of the prerogatives of sovereignty. This means that Italian sovereignty and Maltese sovereignty coexist without overlapping, because the Order exercises sovereign functions in a wider area than occurs in the diplomatic missions of the States for, although enjoy extraterritoriality, the guarantees deriving from the privilege of immunity are constrained to a purely administrative area; the Order, instead, makes use of extraterritoriality to meet the very acts of sovereign self-determination that are the same as the States (legislative, judicial, administrative, financial acts)."
Population: Once again, Misplaced Pages already links the fact that it has population: https://archive.org/details/reportfrompracti00sack/mode/2up
"as part of the bargain only three men – the grand master, the lieutenant grand master, and the chancellor – could be citizens there. The other S.M.O.M.ians were to be citizens of the country they lived in."
Diplomacy: This one doesn't even need sources. It is a well-known fact the order maintains tons of diplomatic relations and missions, and as this page shows, it even has full recognition from San Marino.
Government: Once again, this is a well-known fact that the Order is an internationally recognized government.
Self-recognition: I disagree with this rule being set in place to begin with, but it shouldn't matter as the Order have and do recognize themselves as a sovereign nation, even if they do not recognize their land
One example: https://orderofmaltaamerican.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/OM174_Hospitallers_Summer2023_digital.pdf
"As a sovereign nation, we enjoy diplomatic relations with 112 countries where we have Ambassadors, and, we hope, more countries to follow…. And almost 30 years ago, in 1994 to be precise, we were granted special status as a Permanent Observer at the United Nations and we have full-time Ambassadors serving in Geneva, Vienna and in New York."
And another example: https://ukraineembassy.orderofmalta.int/en/news/the-passports-of-the-sovereign-military-order-of-malta/
"It’s also a sovereign nation, with United Nations observer status and its own constitution, but, unusually, without any land. It issues car license plates – without having any roads to drive them on – and its own stamps, currency and passports." 2600:382:10B0:26EF:4102:7068:C114:1449 (talk) 00:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- We already have United Nations General Assembly observers that listed that Order, anyway who claims that SMOM is a "sovereign state"? Ehh. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The order themselves recognize themselves as a nation. I provided the links already. 2600:382:10B0:26EF:A83F:1A64:31A5:37FD (talk) 17:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, it's not a state. States have borders, at least putative ones. Similarly, if the Holy See didn't have a landmass where it is sovereign and that is not part of any other country (i.e., if Vatican City was just a neighborhood in Rome), then the Holy See would be a UN Observer but would not be a sovereign state. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 14:51, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- "On the one hand, the clear territorial separation of sovereign areas that exists between the Italian State and the State of Vatican City does not exist between the Order of Malta and the Italian State, but neither can it be said that the treatment given to the headquarters of the Order (Aventine, Via Condotti) is, simply, that reserved for the headquarters of diplomatic missions accredited to the Italian State."
- " the Order, instead, makes use of extraterritoriality to meet the very acts of sovereign self-determination that are the same as the States (legislative, judicial, administrative, financial acts).""
- Yes, while it is true the order has no DE JURE borders, it's status gives it DE FACTO borders in which the Italian government has no jurisdiction. 2600:382:10B0:26EF:9DA7:71B:DBD5:45CF (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Nation and state are different things. The Tibetans are a nation, but Tibet is not a sovereign state. 120.16.189.64 (talk) 07:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, it's not a state. States have borders, at least putative ones. Similarly, if the Holy See didn't have a landmass where it is sovereign and that is not part of any other country (i.e., if Vatican City was just a neighborhood in Rome), then the Holy See would be a UN Observer but would not be a sovereign state. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 14:51, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- The order themselves recognize themselves as a nation. I provided the links already. 2600:382:10B0:26EF:A83F:1A64:31A5:37FD (talk) 17:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- SMOM is a UN observer but not in the same category as the Holy See or Palestine. It is an observer entity similar to the Red Cross or International Olympic Committee. It is not a state since it claims neither statehood nor territory, so I think we should keep the Order of Malta in a separate category: entities recognized as sovereign that aren't states. JSwift49 21:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
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