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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Yūji Oda → Yuji Oda – This is the spelling used on his official website. By WP:JTITLE, "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person (such as on their official website or official social media profile)", this is the correct spelling for the article. Mysterious Island (talk) 15:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose One decorative use of roman lettering on a Japanese-language website. Doesn't indicate that the subject actively prefers the non-macronated spelling. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:21, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• Surely it's trivial to research usage in reliable sources, just compare:

• Google reliable sources for "Yuji Oda"

with

• Google reliable sources for "Yūji Oda"

Research it in the Japan Times as well, if you like:

• "Yuji Oda" site:japantimes.co.jp
• What does that tell you? That all the most respected English media and English encyclopedias are wrong, because you think otherwise? LittleBen (talk) 02:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• PS: Also check out his albums on Amazon. LittleBen (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Same applies as below: Yūzō Kayama's albums tend to use a macron-less spelling, but at least one album contradicted this trend, and the subject's obvious personal preference was for the macron. Therefore, the subject's album covers say nothing whatsoever about his personal preferences. On the Japan Times: they never use macrons because their MOS says not to. By the above logic, we would need to move Saigō Takamori because the Japan Times have mentioned him numerous times as "Saigo Takamori". elvenscout742 (talk) 12:48, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• Please provide concrete evidence for your claim about the subject's personal preference, or strike it as unsupported. (In the case of Kayama, the single album that you cite seems to be about 20-30 years old. Styles change in 20-30 years.) LittleBen (talk) 03:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Per WP:MOS-JA. If he calls himself "Yuji Oda" and not "Yuuji Oda" or some other variation there should be no reason for us to use the macron.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

MOS-JA says we should use Hepburn Romanization (including macrons) unless certain specific criteria are met: there is no evidence that the subject himself actively chooses to use the macron-less spelling. See Talk:Yūzō Kayama#Requested move to Yuzo Kayama for an example of where the subject obviously prefers the macronated spelling, but his "official website" include decorative roman lettering of his name that had no macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 12:48, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

• In the case of Kayama, the single photo that you cite seems to be at least 20 years old. Styles change in 20 years. Surely he usually signs his name in Japanese. LittleBen (talk) 03:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. And he blatantly ignored one of the two photos that clearly is from around 2011. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The album covers in particular show how the subject of this article writes his name publicly. --DAJF (talk) 13:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support, per Directory of World Cinema: Japan, New York Times, Amazon, AllMusic, and Variety. Kauffner (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
• Note to closer - This RM was started by the sockpuppet of an indefinitely blocked editor, who further double-voted with a different sock account. Please make note of that in the closing.--Cúchullain /c 20:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - mainly on procedure, to send a clear message to the puppeteer who after a 3rd SPI and bout of expletives against admins yesterday, today has launched 2 more similar RMs at head of RM queue. Secondly because, while WP:JAPAN project members are still working out how they want to interpret diacritics, Elvenscout is actually correct by the letter of the MOS-JA as it stands, there is no evidence of active preference. Print sources aren't particularly helpful, the only academic one not surprisingly has Yūji (as does en.wp for the name article), and three or four film listings in sources which don't indicate long vowels not surprisingly don't indicate long vowels. But mainly back to procedure. Common sense indicates that we don't want to be rewarding sockpuppetry when the single academic print source says otherwise. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• The only reasons that have been given in opposing this are (1) a reference to one album cover and one photo of a completely different person, Kayama, 20-30 years ago (and this is BLP territory: the 20-30 year old album and photo do not prove anything about what that person thinks and does now), (2) we should disregard the majority vote above, and the facts presented, and take vengence on a sock puppet whose vote has not been counted. LittleBen (talk) 14:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Surely everybody is aware that we just had a discussion here that established that macrons are NOT ACCEPTABLE in romanized names on Japanese passports. If you told me that Yuji Oda personally prefers to write his Japanese name using Chinese characters that are not acceptable to the Japanese government, and that Misplaced Pages should do the same, what do you think my response would be?
• Regarding the related topic of place names, there was a discussion here about the chaotic situation, and there was an RfC (that I didn't even hear about) that resulted in the situation being cleaned up in about one month: Tōkyō Station was moved to Tokyo Station. There's no question about which is "more encyclopedic":
• Google reliable sources for "Tōkyō Station"

• Google reliable sources for "Tokyo Station"

• (This template searches several encyclopedias, including Britannica).
• Despite all this, we have people who are trying to roll back the clock more than 10 or 15 years to an era when (perhaps) this was acceptable in Japanese-English—to show ignorant foreigners how to pronounce difficult Japanese words. If the Japanese government were to use macrons in names of people or places in English-language diplomatic documents or English-language white papers, then surely that would be considered condescending, insulting, or just plain stupid—surely everybody has the commonsense, I hope, to realize that such styles are not acceptable, in Japan-related English, in this day and age (for BLP particularly; historical figures may be a different can of worms). Of course I accept that both the pronunciation and the Japanese name should be shown in the lede, as per the MOS, but it is not acceptable to strip the majority-English version of the name completely out of English Misplaced Pages articles.
• The people who push this roll-the-clock-back POV seem to be very adept at baiting and bullying people until they get angry, demonizing them, and then booting them out of Misplaced Pages, but surely the long-time contributors in this Japan-related English Misplaced Pages sphere are not going to put up with such silly, disruptive, and destructive games. Other related BLP articles include Kyōka Suzuki , Kyōko Koizumi , Ryōko Hirosue , Yū Aoi , Kōji Yakusho , and Hideaki Itō .  LittleBen (talk) 22:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• A quick look at the histories of all these articles (including this Yūji Oda article) suggests that DAJF and Ryulong (who support the move) have both made substantial long-term contributions to these articles (as well as to WikiProject Japan). Sasori/MI appear(s) to have been making positive contributions to the Yakusho article for a year, and to the Hirosue article for nine months (the other articles for lesser periods). As for the two who oppose the move: Elvenscout742 appears to have made few or no contributions to these articles, and In ictu oculi none that I can see. Would that be a fair characterization? Even just a quick and superficial look at this makes me wonder who is supposed to be stalking and harassing whom. LittleBen (talk) 05:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The Japanese government does use macrons. And circumflexes. And "oh"s and "ou"s and "oo"s. What the hell are you talking about LittleBen?? It's passports that have rules like that. Misplaced Pages policy is not determined by the rules of Japanese passport offices, and I would appreciate it if you would stop taking my words out of context. I thought we had agreed to stop that?? You are the one trying to push your POV here -- you have said to me numerous times that JoshuSasori was in the right harassing me and undermining Misplaced Pages policy. There is nothing "BLP" about this: show me some evidence that any Japanese person has ever taken offense at their name being spelled with a macron. I have made far greater contributions to both Misplaced Pages and WikiProject Japan than JoshuSasori, whose activities from December until now have been devoted almost exclusively to minor style edits and/or undoing all of my edits. Additionally, you are now willfully ignoring the evidence presented to you. Kayama prefers to spell his name with macrons: I showed you two recent photos of Mr. Kayama signing his own name with macrons, despite JoshuSasori presenting the exact same evidence as he did above that Kayama "uses the non-macronned spelling personally and professionally". Therefore, the above link to a website with decorative roman letters proves nothing, because it didn't there and that move request was rejected. Please stop defending this troll, LittleBenW. I have asked this of you numerous times now: if you continue to defend JoshuSasori's harassment, sockpuppetry, POV-pushing etc. etc., I will have no choice but to take it as a personal attack. You have now insinuated that my 5,000+ edits are meaningless contributions and that JoshuSasori was some kind of visionary sage. STOP THIS IMMEDIATELY. It is beginning to get offensive. elvenscout742 (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

And would it be too much to ask that you stop constantly tweaking your talk-page posts? I have come into edit conflicts with you several times now, and 23 posts to the same talk-page at once seems a bit much... elvenscout742 (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• So are you proposing to revert good work such as shown here as well? LittleBen (talk) 03:02, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Note: LittleBenW posted the above in open violation of his topic ban on diacritics. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose per IIO. Between socks and topic ban violators, this discussion has become poisoned. Close it as no consensus and let a good-faith editor try it later if he or she so desires. --BDD (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Biography articles of living people
• Start-Class Pop music articles
• Unknown-importance Pop music articles
• Pop music articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (actors and filmmakers) articles
• Actors and filmmakers work group articles
• Start-Class biography (musicians) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (musicians) articles
• Musicians work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Start-Class Japan-related articles
• Mid-importance Japan-related articles
• Misplaced Pages requested images of people of Japan
• WikiProject Japan articles