| Revision as of 03:28, 2 April 2013 editLocation (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users23,986 edits →Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 05:24, 9 December 2024 edit undoEEng (talk | contribs)Edit filter helpers, Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Template editors97,797 edits →Kelly Johnson Lockheed Martin skunkworks: you must be joking. This is pure vandalismTag: Manual revert |
| (972 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
|
⚫ |
{{Old XfD multi|page=Kennedy assassination theories|date=December 16, 2005|keep}} |
| ⚫ |
{{WikiProject Politics|class=B|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Rational Skepticism|class=start|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=C|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|class=Start|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Politics|importance=low|American=yes |American-importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|class=c|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=high}} |
|
{{WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth|class=B|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=Mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject History|class=c|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Death|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States|class=Start|importance=Low |
|
{{WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth|importance=low}} |
|
⚫ |
{{WikiProject History|importance=mid}} |
|
|TX=yes |TX-importance=low |USGov=yes|USGov-importance=High }} |
|
|
|
{{WikiProject United States|importance=Low |TX=yes |TX-importance=low |USGov=yes|USGov-importance=High|USPresidents=yes|USPresidents-importance=Mid|UShistory=yes|UShistory-importance=low}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
| ⚫ |
{{Old AfD multi|page=Kennedy assassination theories|date=December 16, 2005|keep}} |
|
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{automatic archive navigator}} |
|
|maxarchivesize = 200K |
|
|maxarchivesize = 200K |
|
|counter = 3 |
|
|counter = 6 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|
|algo = old(60d) |
|
|algo = old(60d) |
|
|archive = Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories/Archive %(counter)d |
|
⚫ |
}}{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|
|target=/Archive index |
|
|
|mask=/Archive <#> |
|
|
|leading_zeros=0 |
|
|
|indexhere=yes |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
==Third bullet theory== |
|
{{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I |age=2 |units=months }} |
|
|
|
] postulates that the most significant evidence of more than one shooter is the discrepancy in behaviors of the second and third bullets. While the second penetrated two bodies and remained intact, the third disintegrated on impact. The bullets used by Oswald were designed for max penetration, so the third bullet's result is an anomaly. None of the other major theories or theorists appear to have highlighted this aspect. Also, Oswald did not shoot at Kennedy right after the turn onto Elm Street, when he was closest to the depository building, but waited until they were further away and missed with his first shot trying to fire through the trees in front of the building, then had to rush the second and third shots which made a direct hit on Kennedy's skull less likely. Sources: . ] (]) 17:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
| ⚫ |
{{Controversial}} |
|
| ⚫ |
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |
|
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Site should be titled JFK assassination == |
|
|
|
|
|
{{hat|No article improvement discussion, hatting. ] (]) 19:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)}} |
|
|
This site far more evenly and impartially narrates the story of the assassination than does the site titled JFK assassination. With a few changes and additions to scope including the Warren Commission findings, this article would better serve as THE article about the event than the biased article "JFK assassination" which purports the Warren Commission to be a reliable source for the historical narrative. The broad consensus of public, scholarly and expert opinion, investigations and witness testimony support at least 2 shooters and therefore a conspiracy. While the main article gives these a nod, it infers they are "theories" while the WC narrates the actual events. This is scandalous min its conflation of "official" with actual. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 23:55, 30 January 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|
|
:I agree. Unfortunately, you have a majority group of editors who are wedded to the Warren Commission version of history and look with disdain on anyone who does not toe the line. Moreover, because this is a complicated topic, making appeals against this group of true believers is mostly futile. It seems that other editors either don't want to get involved, or don't have the expertise to render an opinion. But, for now, that is the way it is. At least with Misplaced Pages, dissenting theories get a fairer shake then they could ever get with such outfits as ABC News. ] (]) 10:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
::Is there specific text here or elsewhere you would like to address? ] (]) 14:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:::I've previously addressed many areas regarding the Oswald article and the JFK assassination article. Unfortunately, there is an editor there, Canada Jack, who has a lock on these articles. He also has what might be called his "groupie" editors who go along with any position he takes no matter how ridiculous. The history of it is all there, but it would likely be a waste of anyone's time who cared to look it up. ] (]) 16:45, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Sure, Brandon. I've hypnotized a pile of editors into believing I am right, while you, God's Lonely Man, stands alone valiantly trying to insert "truth" on the other page. Has the possibility ever entered your mind that, hey, maybe I should follow what wikipedia does and not simply insert arguments which you feel are correct onto a contentious page willy-nilly? Which is exactly what me and others have been saying all along? It's not as if there is no mention of conspiracy on the page, the problem is it is the page on the ASSASSINATION, and what the investigations concluded. There is an entire section devoted to "conspiracy" there, as well as numerous indications that at least one investigation concluded that, which is also in the lede, as is the "conspiracy" belief of a vast majority of people. If one wants to look at an example of how little Brandon thinks before he starts messing with texts or getting things to say what HE wants it to say instead of the actual sources, I point to the top of the page and how he treated the "iron sights" debate. He was clearly wrong, but took it as some sort of "conspiracy" to insert pro-WC stuff. And we now have a mess of a page here, even though I have offered to do the job Brandon clearly can't do - make the coherent case for "conspiracy." Instead we see a "throw the shit against the wall and sees what sticks" approach here. |
|
|
|
|
|
::::Indeed, if I was one of the paranoid conspiracy types (the ones who accuse me of being Bugliosi or some CIA plant), I'd deeply suspect that the "conspiracy" is at play here, making this page a mess to make the entire "conspiracy" topic look silly and not worthy of serious consideration. So, come clean Brandon - are you a CIA plant to make the CT crowd look bad? ] (]) 18:31, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::The reason for the iron sights confusion was that the unusual configuration of a side-mounted scope was never brought into the discussion. You're the only one who seems to think that this page is a mess. However, your Oswald article and your JFK assassination article have come in for much criticism -- not just from me. As I recall, your last big project was supposed to be making a case for the Warren Commission's conclusions. What ever happened to that noble project? ] (]) 21:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::::The only "confusion" on the iron sights was your own. And then applying you misunderstanding of the issue to the article and your obstruction and obstinacy when I pointed out your error. It was a simple but telling point. For even if you were correct about the inability to use the iron sights without taking off the scope, you STILL were wrong to suggest the HSCA "concluded" he used the scope as they never did. Of course, you were wrong on both points, another reason why your contributions need extra scrutiny. |
|
|
|
|
|
::::::As for "my" JFK article, the only section I had any substantial input was... the conspiracy section. I wrote almost none of the rest. Ditto for the Oswald page. ''You're the only one who seems to think that this page is a mess.'' Anything you say, Brandon. Seriously - are you some sort of CIA mole, deliberately gumming up this page into the incoherent mess it is? For example... when discussing the myriad conspiracy/cover-ups etc, has it ever occurred to you that you might actually begin at Deally Plaza - where, after all, the actual assassination took place - instead of with critiques of the investigation? And then accounts of witness intimidation? I mean, is the main "conspiracy" that the casual reader might be interested in the cover-up... or the assassination itself? Just saying. ] (]) 15:15, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::Regarding the rifle, you weren't even aware that it had a side-mounted scope. Regarding conspiracy, you might want to consult your favorite historian, Robert Caro, who as you know wrote a long biography on Lyndon Johnson. I'm not sure whether Caro included in his book Johnson's conspiracy theory that Castro was behind the JFK assassination, or Johnson's other theory that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination, but responsible editors like myself had to include Johnson's conspiracy theories in this article because they are historically documented. ] (]) 16:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::There you go again, Brandon. I told YOU that it was a side-mounted scope. YOU were the one claiming otherwise. To refresh your memory: ''Boy, how many screw-ups can we count on one page with Brandon? "A scope mounted on a rifle, de facto, means that the shooter's only option for aiming is to use the scope." Uh, no, Brandon. If the scope was mounted on this particular rifle in the way you describe, the bolt could not be operated.(!) Which is why the scope was mounted slightly off-centre to the left so as to allow the bolt to be operated. Accordingly, the iron sights could be used even with the scope in place. For example, the FBI's Robert Frazier tested the rifle with the scope AND with the iron sights - without removing the scope.'' |
|
|
::::::::As for your irrelevant aside about LBJ, no one disputes that he was pretty sure that there was a conspiracy. This has been known for, what? 40 years? I think a better question for the non-credulous crowd (which excludes most conspiracy believers) is if there WAS a conspiracy, why didn't LBJ have some concrete information on that as he surely would through his numerous government links? Or RFK? Who was in a better position to have information in that regard, arguably? Instead, the two men stated their opinion that others may have been behind it, with no evidence that was in fact so. Of course, to the CT crowd, having prominent believers in "conspiracy" is "evidence" of conspiracy, a logical fallacy. It's evidence of a belief, nothing else. ] (]) 18:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::There you go again, Jack. Your description of the scope being "off-centre" implies that there was something wrong with the scope which was not the case. The correct terminology is, "side-mounted scope." Regarding conspiracy, it's OK for you to attack and ridicule the messenger, but you should attack and ridicule the real messenger. The real messenger, in this case, was conspiracy theorist, President Lyndon Johnson. ] (]) 18:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
{{hab}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:The second bullet passed through almost entirely soft tissue while the third bullet immediately struck bone. ] (]) 22:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
== Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers == |
|
|
|
:Yes, as mentioned by 24.230 above, the bullet that struck two did so by passing through Kennedy without touching bone, then plowing sideways through relatively soft bone at a significantly reduced velocity, as opposed to striking the much harder skull bone at maximum velocity nose-first. |
|
|
:As for Oswald not shooting when closest, this ignores the evidence of the sniper nest. The sniper had set up several boxes as a gun rest, poised to shoot when JFK was travelling away down Elm - and not pointing down Houston when the sniper might be more readily seen by witnesses as the target was approaching the sniper's nest, and the angle of adjustment was far steeper as it approached. Going down Elm towards the underpass the angle of adjustment was minimal as the limousine was travelling away almost in a straight line. Even though the limosine was closer when turning onto Elm, it was a trickier shot with the target moving from left to right as it turned. Even if one could argue that shooting down Houston was an easier shot, the bottom line is the sniper in fact set up the gun rest to shoot down Elm, so it's a moot point. As for "rush the second and third shots", the evidence suggests that the first shot completely missed, he set and fired again, which struck but not at the presumed target - Kennedy's head - , then he set and waited the longest and fired the third shot, a bullseye. Entirely consistent with Oswald's experience as a trained Marine sniper, making adjustments with what most experts agree was not a difficult shot. Took him three to hit the bullseye. A good, but not great, marksman. ] (]) 00:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Not a word about JFK doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound == |
|
We shouldn't be cherry-picking lengthy quotes to put in the article, so I re-wrote the bit about what Tip O'Neill (w/ ghost-writer William Novak) claimed Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers said regarding the direction of the shots.() The implication here is that alleged perjury on their part somehow points to a conspiracy either by the placement of a grassy knoll gunman or that they were forced to alter their testimony. Unfortunately, leaving this as an implication makes this OR so we need sources explicitly stating how this points to a conspiracy. The O'Neill book alone is not sufficient because he did not say he thought their alleged contradictory statements were evidence of a conspiracy. ] (]) 03:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Currently there is not a word about JFK Parkland doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound. |
|
:We've already dealt with this , and this material still doesn't belong in the article. ] <small>(])</small> 19:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I haven't discussed this interview here before. And I don't see this interview mentioned in the talk archives. |
|
::This material absolutely belongs in the article. In your typical troll fashion, your reference is deceitfully pointed to another article "Assassination of President Kennedy" and not to this article which has to do with JFK assassination theories. ] (]) 02:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is an '''interview from 2015''' with '''Dr. ]''' where he says that he saw a massive head wound in the back of Kennedy's head. And that the other doctors saw it too. He said that he saw a front entrance wound. |
|
:::The subject matter is the same, therefore, the discussion is relevant. Do you intend to supply a source that explicitly states how O'Neill's statement is connected with a conspiracy? ] (]) 03:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ435lMaCng |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I previously discussed the '''2023 documentary''' about 7 doctors who were there, and they all believed there was an entrance wound from the front, meaning that more than one shooter was required. This Google search pulls up the documentary and many reliable sources that reviewed it: |
|
== Hearsay regarding RFK's thoughts on the Warren Commission == |
|
|
|
*Google search: '''''' (see documentary). |
|
|
*Previous discussion: '''].''' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
I mention it now because the documentary and the McClelland interview are saying the same thing. And so it further merits being in the article. --] (]) 22:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
I have removed the following from the "Possible evidence of a cover-up" section again: |
|
|
:''In a 2013 interview with CBS journalist Charlie Rose, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. said that his father Robert F. Kennedy "...publicly supported the Warren Commission report but privately he was dismissive of it." He said that his father was "...'fairly convinced' that others were involved."'' |
|
|
Even if RFK believed it was shoddy work, we cannot imply something that the source doesn't state (i.e. that RFK believed there was a cover-up). ] (]) 04:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
:BrandonTR, the section you are attempting to edit is entitled "Possible evidence of a cover-up", but the material you are attempting to insert into the article only states that RFK, Jr. says that RFK believed there was a conspiracy. The AP report says: "He said his father, later elected U.S. senator in New York, was 'fairly convinced' that others were involved." The full statement was: "I think my father was fairly convinced at the end of that that there had been involvement by somebody..." |
|
|
:Ignoring for a moment that this is only hearsay, it is possible for a person to believe that there was a conspiracy and that the Warren Commission did a poor job, but not believe that there was a cover-up. The material might be be acceptable in a section entitled "People who believed there was a conspiracy"{{mdash}}or more accurately "People who are alleged to have believed there was a conspiracy"{{mdash}}but there is nothing in the material that says RFK had evidence of a cover-up or even thought there was a cover-up. ] (]) 17:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Without some newly discovered, reliable, secondary source, I don't think it will be productive to rehash the same discussion. There was also the one at ]. ] (] / ]) 02:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
:Yep, it's original research, ] (]) 23:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
::There were '''many reliable secondary sources in the previous discussion.''' There are '''more now''' about the '''massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound),''' and a '''front entrance wound.''' |
|
|
::The above-linked video is a '''primary source.''' But it is an interview. According to the essay, '''].''' and its source guidelines, an interviewee's responses are '''primary, non-independent, and authoritative''' for the '''interviewee's personal experiences, preferences, viewpoints, etc..''' |
|
|
::There is a '''different 2015 interview with McClelland''' here in front of a crowd at the '''Allen Public Library''' in ''']:''' |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySO0pLcN5ww - discusses a '''massive rear head wound, not a massive top of the head wound.''' |
|
|
::Many of the reviews of the documentary show parts of the interviews with the 7 doctors. So they are '''secondary sources with primary sources.''' You can find some of them by scrolling down the results of this Youtube search: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=interviews+with+jfk+parkland+doctors |
|
|
::Reviews from reliable sources such as '''], ], ], ],''' etc.. Many of the previously discussed reviews from reliable news sources had video clips too. All of them comment on the documentary and the video clips. That makes them '''secondary sources,''' too. |
|
|
::Here is an '''2013 interview of McClelland''' by the '''chief editor''' (Rod J. Rohrich, MD) of the ''']''' journal: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q1lYifmUXA |
|
|
::He describes a '''massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound),''' at 6 minutes into the video. There is even a diagram. The video is also hosted on their website: |
|
|
::https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/pages/video.aspx?autoPlay=false&v=420 |
|
|
::The videos are part of a '''special topic:''' |
|
|
::{{cite journal |last1=Rohrich |first1=Rod J. |last2=Weinstein |first2=Aaron |last3=Stokes |first3=Mike |title='''The Assassination of JFK: A Plastic Surgery Perspective 50 Years Later''' |journal=] |date=November 2013 |volume=132 |issue=5 |pages=1373–1376 |doi=10.1097/PRS.0b013e3182a64669 |url=https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/fulltext/2013/11000/the_assassination_of_jfk__a_plastic_surgery.58.aspx}} |
|
|
::''']''' did a '''April 3, 1992''' report in a segment titled "I Know What I Saw." '''Dr. Charles A. Crenshaw,''' one of the ER doctors, saw a '''massive rear head wound, (not a massive top of the head wound),''' and a '''front entrance wound.''' See: |
|
|
::https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuGGouHg5Y - and archive link: |
|
|
::https://web.archive.org/web/20231125220335/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuGGouHg5Y |
|
|
::Crenshaw also has a #1 New York Times bestseller (makes it notable) saying the same thing: |
|
|
::https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/dfqQAAAAQBAJ?hl=en - "JFK Has Been Shot". Can search inside. Copyright 1992. |
|
|
::I think we need a '''request for comment.''' I have provided a plethora of primary and secondary sources for the fact that the JFK Parkland doctors saw a massive rear head wound (not a massive top of the head wound), and a front entrance wound too. |
|
|
::--] (]) 17:36, 25 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Number of Shots == |
|
:Actually that's not the full statement, but nice try. The full statement is as follows: |
|
|
:KENNEDY: I think my father was fairly convinced at the end of that that there had been involvement by somebody … |
|
|
:ROSE: Organized crime, Cubans … |
|
|
:KENNEDY: Or rogue CIA … |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This section, says Nellie Connally thought her husband was hit by a separate shot, true, but John Connally's own similar testimony (per JThompson's 6 Secs in Dallas) is even more convincing. Believe Connally went to his grave believing Warren Commission was wrong about the Magic Bullet, but paradoxically, Connally agreed with the Commission's overall findings. In any case, failure to cite John Connally's testimony seems like a bit of bias at this point in the Wiki. ] (]) 18:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
:Also, your objection has changed. Your original objection was that there was no allegation of conspiracy. Now your objection is that this material does not belong in the section under coverup. Very well. I have moved this material (or I should say some of it) to the section "Role of Oswald." ] (]) 02:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
::"Nice try" to you, too. You inserted material that indicated a statement of fact that RFK Jr said RFK was "fairly convinced". The source I provided indicates only that RFK Jr ''thinks'' he was "fairly convinced". |
|
|
::And, yes, my objection changed because it is different than the original objection in which the material you inserted did not reference a conspiracy.( I now object to you placing it in the section entitled "Role of Oswald" because... wait for it... it doesn't say anything about the role of Oswald. It belongs in a section "People who are alleged to have believed there was a conspiracy". Why do all these conspiracy allegations rest on someone stating what some dead person said... or in this case... what someone ''thinks'' a dead person thought? Weak. ] (]) 03:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The JFK Assassination Chokeholds: That Inescapably Prove There Was a Conspiracy == |
|
== A Gentle Reminder == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This book might warrant a mention, along with its authors: James DiEugenio, Matt Crumpton, Paul Bleau, Andrew Iler, and Mark Adamczyk. ] (]) 21:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
This is a topic which tends to lead to heated disagreements. I would remind everyone involved that the best way to deal with these disagreements is found at ''']''' and ''']'''. Following the advice on those two pages not only makes things go much more smoothly, it maximizes the chances of getting your way in the end. I'm just saying. --] (]) 23:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC) |
|
Currently there is not a word about JFK Parkland doctors saying there was a front entrance wound, and a massive rear head wound.
I haven't discussed this interview here before. And I don't see this interview mentioned in the talk archives.
I mention it now because the documentary and the McClelland interview are saying the same thing. And so it further merits being in the article. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
This section, says Nellie Connally thought her husband was hit by a separate shot, true, but John Connally's own similar testimony (per JThompson's 6 Secs in Dallas) is even more convincing. Believe Connally went to his grave believing Warren Commission was wrong about the Magic Bullet, but paradoxically, Connally agreed with the Commission's overall findings. In any case, failure to cite John Connally's testimony seems like a bit of bias at this point in the Wiki. TBILLT (talk) 18:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
.svg)
