| Revision as of 13:32, 28 April 2013 editPumpkinSky (talk | contribs)20,866 edits →Citizenship: re← Previous edit |
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{{backwardscopy|url=http://www.kafka.org/index.php?biography|title=The Kafka Project|author=Mauro Nervi|date=January 2008|comments=See for information. --] <sup>]</sup> 13:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)}} |
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{{backwardscopy|url=http://www.kafka.org/index.php?biography|title=The Kafka Project|author=Mauro Nervi|date=last updated 1/2008|comments=See for information. --] <sup>]</sup> 13:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)}} |
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== borderline personality disorder == |
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== Kafka and anarchists. == |
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"He later stated, regarding the Czech anarchists: 'They all sought thanklessly to realize human happiness. I understood them. But ... I was unable to continue marching alongside them for long'" |
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This sentence is quoted by a french book, "Janouch, Gustav (1998) (in French). Conversations avec Kafka. Paris: Maurice Nadeau. ISBN 978-2-86231-111-1", so I reckon it's a translation. I have got another version of these conversations and I can not find any trace of this passage. I can't find anything searching in Google either. It seems there is something and . I can't explain it. I found , but there is no trace about it.--] (]) 15:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC) |
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:Yes, agree if it's sourced to a French book, it's not a direct quote and if you can't find it, then it fails verification. Someone will have to remove the source and tag the section. Thanks for noticing and posting. ] (]) 13:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC) |
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== Last paragraph in "Critical Interpretations" seems to be off. == |
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It almost looks like some transitional text is missing. I would suggest that the part that I bolded should be deleted. I will wait until Monday to make sure there are no protests before doing so. |
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Attempts have been made to identify the influence of Kafka's legal background and the role of law in his fiction. Most interpretations identify aspects of law and legality as important in his work, in which the legal system is often oppressive. The law in Kafka's works, rather than being representative of any particular legal or political entity, is usually interpreted to represent a collection of anonymous, incomprehensible forces. These are hidden from the individual but control the lives of the people, who are innocent victims of systems beyond their control. '''It is sometimes used colloquially to mean "bug" —a very general term, unlike the scientific "insect". Kafka had no intention of labeling Gregor, the protagonist of the story, as any specific thing, but instead wanted to convey Gregor's disgust at his transformation. Another example is Kafka's use of the German noun Verkehr in the final sentence of "Das Urteil". Literally, Verkehr means intercourse and, as in English, can have either a sexual or non-sexual meaning; in addition, it is used to mean transport or traffic. The sentence can be translated as: "At that moment an unending stream of traffic crossed over the bridge". The double meaning of Verkehr is given added weight by Kafka's confession to Brod that when he wrote that final line, he was thinking of "a violent ejaculation".''' <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Cited information. --] (]) 22:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Looks like there was some careless editing a few days which hid some text. I fixed it. ] (]) 07:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC) |
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== Kafka's atheism == |
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I've notice that when I add the statement that Kakfa was a Jewish atheist, it has been removed twice in different areas in this article. I understand that the info box may not have been the right place to put this statement. However, (5 months ago) when I tried to put this statement under "Judaism and Zionism", it has also been rejected as well. |
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Here are the following sources, if your want more proof for this claim: |
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1.) "Through his consumption of such books Kafka rejected both capitalism and religion as a teenager - declaring himself to be a socialist and an atheist". Sander L. Gilman, ''Franz Kafka'', page 31. |
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2.) "Undoubtedly, synagogue life appalled Kafka, but not because he was an atheist. It appalled him because, in his words, he was trying to “build his faith,” and the conventional forms were not adequate." June O. Leavitt, ''The Mystical Life of Franz Kafka: Theosophy, Cabala, and the Modern Spiritual Revival'', page 8. |
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3.) "In time Kafka would become an atheist." Golgotha Press, ''The Life and Times of Franz Kafka''. |
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4.) "Whilst Kafka had a brief interest in Kabbalah, mysticism, and Yiddish theatre, he rarely attended synagogue and considered himself an atheist." - Benjamin Lazarus, The Jewish Chronicle Online. |
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I can reference more sources if you wish. |
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I'm not saying that we should devote an entire paragraph to this point, however, I don't see any controversy in the inclusion of this statement, if his biographers support this claim. ] (]) 22:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:The sources are good, no problem with that, but to summarize a complex matter it in a short infobox labeling seemed overly simple. It's a question how much detail we can devote to it, considering that we can't even cover his works in detail. Can you suggest a wording for the article here? --] (]) 22:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC) |
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::The infobox is definitely out. As this is a featured article, new additions have to be carefully considered so as to not subject the article to a review and loss of that status. The question is, perhaps, how much (and where) to discuss his religious views, particularly as they were in flux during his life, and thus difficult to pin down without "devoting an entire paragraph" that explores the nuance. My suggestion in cases such as these is to propose your additions (noting sources) in a subsection here at talk, and let everyone involved determine first if they are within the range of ] and ], then hammer out the details. With Kafka, it is as important not to oversimplify a complex issue as it is to avoid overdoing something to the point that there is undue weight given to it. So think over how you reconcile sources above saying both that he was and was not an atheist and propose the sentence or two you'd like to see added. ]<sup>]</sup> 23:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC) |
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I think we can include Kafka's religious views under the subsection, "Judaism and Zionism" (or we could rename the title as well). In regards to reconciling sources, would you like me to say that Kafka was a "reluctant atheist"? Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say, "reconcile sources above saying both that he was and was not an atheist"? I haven't found anything that states that he was a religious person in later life. I understand, however, that Kafka was longing for spirituality. Would you like me to say, "While Kafka considered himself to be an atheist, he had an interest in religion and spirituality." After that, specify the religious symbolism in his novels? Or, would you like me to wait for other wikipedians for their response? ] (]) 00:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:Wait for others; I don't have the access to the material. I'm just someone trying to help resolve a dispute. What you have listed so far concerns me for the following reasons. 1. Your statements may be ], it seems you are taking random snippets to reach a conclusion that may or may not be the consensus of outside scholarship. 2. You aren't providing full citation of all of your sources, though if they are already cited in the article, let us know that. 3. Your sources #2 and #3 seem to contradict each other, or at least suggest he was more agnostic than atheist. 4. There is no doubt enough scholarship on Kafka that the definitive mainstream assessment of his spirituality exists: what is it and who says it? ]<sup>]</sup> 20:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC) |
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'''Quick comment''' - either somewhere up-page or in a discussion with PumpkinSky I mentioned these sources and that this material needs to be added for the article to be comprehensive - in particular the material from the Leavitt book is repeated in much of the Kafka literature. It's very well documented, the sources are good, and yes, somehow needs to be added. I wouldn't worry about undue, npov or synth: simply follow the sources. As is the article needs some work anyway, (I can't because the page won't load for me), so anything at this point is a boon. ] (]) 21:20, 15 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:Could you word the section here, without loading the page. I could copy it then, --] (]) 21:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC) |
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::Sorry, I'm going out on break and would need to read the sources - some of which I no longer have access to. Ninmacer20 seems to have a grasp and access so no reason not to let them add imo. ] (]) 21:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC) |
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There isn't much of a consensus until I receive ]'s approval. On Montanbw's first point, the sources do says that Kafka was an atheist. If the sources were to say, "Kafka were to pass as an atheist", I can understand your point. On your second point, here are the full citations to the sources: |
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1.) {{cite book |
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| last = Gilman |
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| first = Sander |
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| title = Franz Kafka |
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| year = 2005 |
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| publisher = Reaktion Books |
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| location = London |
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| isbn = 978-1-881872-64-1 |
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| ref = harv |
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}}, page=31, "Through his consumption of such books Kafka rejected both capitalism and religion as a teenager - declaring himself to be a socialist and an atheist." - This source is listed under "Bibliography" in the Franz Kafka article. |
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2.) {{cite book|last=Leavitt|first=June|title=The Mystical Life of Franz Kafka: Theosophy, Cabala, and the Modern Spiritual Revival|year=2011|publisher=Oxford University Press|isbn=978-0-19-982783-1|page=8|quote=Undoubtedly, synagogue life appalled Kafka, but not because he was an atheist. It appalled him because, in his words, he was trying to “build his faith,” and the conventional forms were not adequate.}}</ref> |
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3.) {{cite book|title=The Life and Times of Franz Kafka|year=2012|publisher=BookCaps Study Guides|isbn=9781621071518|author=Golgotha Press|accessdate=14 March 2013|quote=In time Kafka would become an atheist.}} |
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4.) {{cite web|title=Israel must relinquish ownership over Kafka|url=http://www.thejc.com/campus/campus-comment/70130/israel-must-relinquish-ownership-over-kafka|publisher=The Jewish Chronicle Online|accessdate=15 March 2013|author=Benjamin Lazarus|date=July 16, 2012|quote=Whilst Kafka had a brief interest in Kabbalah, mysticism, and Yiddish theatre, he rarely attended synagogue and considered himself an atheist.}} |
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5.) {{cite web|title=Franz Kafka|url=http://www.online-literature.com/franz-kafka/|publisher=Jalic Inc.|accessdate=15 March 2013|author=C.D. Merriman|year=2005|quote=Kafka eventually declared himself a socialist atheist, Spinoza, Darwin and Nietzsche some of his influences.}} |
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I can see why sources #4 and #5 would be considered non-reliable, however, I think 3 reliable sources more than suffice. |
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On your third point, I don't see any contradiction between sources #2 and #3 when they both state that he was an atheist. Like I say before, Kafka had a longing for spirituality. Spirituality can have a number of forms. It certainly doesn't deny a person from being an atheist. God and spirituality are distinguishable (albeit relative). If source #3 wanted to use the word "agnostic", it would have imply that instead of saying he was "an atheist". Again, I'll wait for ]'s response before I'll do anything. However, I'd would like to see an another wikipedian editor to write about Kakfa's beliefs, since I don't claim to be an expert on Kafka's personal life. I just look at the sources. Even if I were to write something, I don't know whether to write one sentence or an entire sub-article on Kafka's religious views, since Kafka's personal views are considered complex. ] (]) 00:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC) |
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:My question was the phrase you quoted above, " synagogue life appalled Kafka, but not because he was an atheist. It appalled him because..." This is out of context, but as quoted, suggests he was not an athiest...? If that is clarified and everyone agrees that the weight of scholarship agrees that "atheist" is the best term applied to his spiritual beliefs, then I'm happy. I don't have access to the source material, so I shall let the other editors comment on that. ]<sup>]</sup> 20:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC) |
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Sorry for not responding to you sooner. Anyway, I see your point. The quote you mention is rather ambiguous as it can be interpreted to say that he wasn't an atheist. However, based on the other citations, we could infer that Kafka was an atheist. However, it is up to the wikipedian editors to decide on this. If I could get approval from other commentators on this topic, then I (hopefully someone else as mentioned above) could write something. For now, I'll wait. ] (]) 04:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC) |
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], I apologize for my rash edit. The reason why I included that statement/label to this article was due to the fact that there was no discussion of Kafka's views on religion or God for almost a month. I assumed that Wikipedian editors consented since there was no recent objections or questions to that label. I don't know how long I'll have to wait for this discussion to move along. The only statement that I added in this article was that Kafka declared himself to be an atheist in his adolescent years. Which is supported by sources like this one below: |
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1.) Sander L. Gilman (2005). Franz Kafka. Reaktion Books. p. 31. ISBN 9781861892546. "Through his consumption of such books Kafka rejected both capitalism and religion as a teenager - declaring himself to be a socialist and an atheist." |
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Note: This source is even listed under "Bibliography" of this article. |
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That statement doesn't explicitly mean that Kafka considered himself to be an atheist throughout his life, however, I haven't read a source that says the contrary. |
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Unless there other wikipedians that object or question it, I don't see any controversy over the inclusion of that statement/label. |
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] (]) 02:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC) |
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== Schizoid == |
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I find the characterization "schizoid" offensive, pompous, dehumanizing, void |
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of informational content, an excellent way of arguing that Kakfa is |
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not worth the encounter and is better left to the psychiatric professionals of yesteryear. |
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Or have I missed some important idea intended by this hollow and sad characterization? |
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] (]) 05:01, 19 March 2013 (UTC) |
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== New translations? == |
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Moved from article pending source and discussion: (] (]) 21:07, 19 March 2013 (UTC)) |
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I happened to notice added two claims of borderline personality disorder, but also that the account which made them was since blocked for abuse. Since this is a featured article, it would be best if this was double-checked. --] (]) 21:07, 20 October 2024 (UTC) |
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''Most recently twenty three of Kafka's shorter stories including Before The Law, as well as The Metamorphosis have been re-translated with modern interpretations on these stories by Michael Major in his book "Kafka for our time - Journeys of discovery". |
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:The two sources look ok to me. One is an article in a refereed journal published for a national professional association. The other is a specialist book by a reputable psychiatrist (https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/latimes/name/joan-lachkar-obituary?id=37010767) which is in the Internet Archive; although it is not fully available there at the moment and I haven't been able to check the page cited. ] (]) 11:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Kierkegaard ref == |
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== Kafka's letters in Czech == |
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In the sentence, "All of Kafka's published works were written in German, with the exception of a number of letters he wrote in Czech to his contemporary ]," I deleted the phrase after the comma, for a couple of reasons. The phrase "published works" is ordinarily read to mean works intended for publication, which the letters Kafka wrote to Milena were not, because they were personal letters, and personal letters aren't "works." The fact that Kafka became famous and his letters were published decades after his death doesn't make them "published works" in the ordinary sense of the term. Also, Kafka must have written personal letters in Czech to people other than Milena. To claim that those to Milena were the only ones written in Czech would require examination of every letter Kafka wrote that has been published, and, again, the fact that a letter has been published doesn't make it a "published work" or even a "work." |
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The reference which verifies Kierkegaard's influence on Kafka presently cites ] and that's really not acceptable as a reliable source. I tried to follow where the cited article sourced its information from but it points to "McGee 2006", which is not defined in the bibliography, nor was it in earlier version of that article. Checking the ] article, I eventually found: |
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*McGee, Kyle. {{cite web |title=Fear and Trembling in the Penal Colony |work=Kafka Project |url=http://www.kafka.org/index.php?id=185,290,0,0,1,0 |accessdate=2010-03-01}} |
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from a 2010 version of that article. I'm not perfectly happy with it as a source as I don't know anything about that website, but perhaps others here might. I'm going to replace the wikipedia article cite with one to McGee 2006, but it might be worth others who know the sources well checking McGee's sources to see if one of those would be more clearly WP:RS. --] (]) 21:36, 26 April 2013 (UTC) |
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I will also add "" to the sentence that follows: "What little was published during his lifetime attracted scant public attention." How much is "scant"? ] (]) 02:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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== Citizenship == |
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] is a very varied and ambiguous term, and is not the same as saying "he lived here, people called him Czech". Kafka's "citizenship" is rather misleading and is quite likely completely unsourceable. Something of that nature should not appear in the infobox, which is meant to be a simple summary of the article content. ] (]) 12:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:As the person who only edited the sentence in question to sound better, I don't mind. Something to note is that the first time the letters were published, ]. ] (]) 11:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::(]) ] does not state that Kafka wrote the letters in Czech, and it should; it states merely that they were originally published in German. Do you have a source that says that Kafka wrote them in Czech? I'll check out the English translation to see it if says that (but I can't do that for a few days). ] (]) 13:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:And you've hit 3 reverts in about 12 hours again. Your one-woman war on infoboxes and their content really needs to stop. As for this entry, he was a citizen of those places so please stop making flimsy extrapolations. This entry has been here for a long time and you and your infobox ware are being disruptive to stable articles and the community. ] ] 12:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:::I'll try and find one and get back to you, I'm quite curious myself. That said, I'm no expert at sourcing, I mostly do typos, fixing weird sentences and such. ] (]) 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think it's confusing and should be nailed down and maybe even explained a bit more in the article. Gray (2005), , says he was a citizen of the Austro-Hungarian empire so prob best to use that as a source - but with Kafka, WWI, etc., it's pretty difficult to "box" that information. Gray, btw, looks like a fantastic source, I'm curious why it wasn't leaned on more here? ] (]) 13:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:::I don't have a direct quote on this, but the majority of (if not all) the surviving correspondence Kafka wrote to Milena seems to be in German. I've been able to find a , hosted under the University of Vienna (just delete the end of the URL). The website also has letters he did write to ''other people ''in Czech (, search "Milý" for some more), but everything from him to Milena is in German (with a Czech word or phrase seldom thrown in) – search her name for that. I'd post the URLs for the searches directly, but Misplaced Pages doesn't seem to like them. ] (]) 18:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::It seems so simple that he was born into the monarchy but died in the republic, - better to have that in the box than nothing, and the next IP changing him to "Czech writer", we had that already. --] (]) 13:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Actually, here are the pages for the relevant years, everything labelled "Brief an Milena" (letter), "Kartenbrief an Milena" (card-letter?), "Ansichtkarte an Milena" (postcard) and "Postkarte an Milena" (also postcard?) is what we're interested in: |
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::::Well now I'm confused: if a Czech citizen why isn't he a Czech writer? I think these should be left out - it's not really that simple to the average reader who doesn't know the history (monarchy became republic after a war) and isn't familiar w/ names of countries that no longer exist. ] (]) 13:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:::: |
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:::::TK-that's why we have summaries and details. I agree that the turbulent times make it a tad more complicated but the fact remains he was a citizen of those places so the entry is valid. Infoboxes exist for a summary; the body is for details. We can talk about the entries but for Nikki to run around all over wiki wantonly removing this stuff and edit warring repeatedly (she was recently blocked for it) is the total wrong approach. ] ] 13:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC) |
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::::Might be easier than having to search them up. ] (]) 18:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::(]) I hadn't checked your addition to this thread until just now, but I'd already added a sentence to ] (the second sentence). ] (]) 21:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::👍 ] (]) 19:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
In the sentence, "All of Kafka's published works were written in German, with the exception of a number of letters he wrote in Czech to his contemporary Milena Jesenská," I deleted the phrase after the comma, for a couple of reasons. The phrase "published works" is ordinarily read to mean works intended for publication, which the letters Kafka wrote to Milena were not, because they were personal letters, and personal letters aren't "works." The fact that Kafka became famous and his letters were published decades after his death doesn't make them "published works" in the ordinary sense of the term. Also, Kafka must have written personal letters in Czech to people other than Milena. To claim that those to Milena were the only ones written in Czech would require examination of every letter Kafka wrote that has been published, and, again, the fact that a letter has been published doesn't make it a "published work" or even a "work."
I will also add "" to the sentence that follows: "What little was published during his lifetime attracted scant public attention." How much is "scant"? Maurice Magnus (talk) 02:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
