| Revision as of 12:41, 30 June 2013 editIgnocrates (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users11,170 edits →WP:FAR: add a bit more← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 02:33, 12 March 2024 edit undoBattyBot (talk | contribs)Bots1,932,692 editsm →top: Fixed/removed unknown WikiProject parameter(s) and general fixes per WP:Talk page layoutTag: AWB | ||
| (202 intermediate revisions by 20 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{ |
{{Talk header|noarchive=yes}} | ||
| {{Article history | |||
| {{ArticleHistory | |||
| | topic = religion | |||
| | action1 = PR | | action1 = PR | ||
| | action1date = 01:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC) | | action1date = 01:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC) | ||
| Line 12: | Line 14: | ||
| | action2result = listed | | action2result = listed | ||
| | action2oldid = 432117221 | | action2oldid = 432117221 | ||
| | topic = philosophy | |||
| | action3 = PR | | action3 = PR | ||
| Line 21: | Line 21: | ||
| | action3oldid = 548843781 | | action3oldid = 548843781 | ||
| |action4=FAC | | action4 = FAC | ||
| |action4date=10:02, 23 June 2013 | | action4date = 10:02, 23 June 2013 | ||
| |action4link=Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Gospel of the Ebionites/archive1 | | action4link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Gospel of the Ebionites/archive1 | ||
| |action4result=promoted | | action4result = promoted | ||
| |action4oldid=561182093 | | action4oldid = 561182093 | ||
| | action5 = FAR | |||
| | action5date = 18:51, 31 August 2013 | |||
| | action5link = Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Gospel of the Ebionites/archive1 | |||
| | action5result = kept | |||
| | action5oldid = 568823515 | |||
| | currentstatus = FA | | currentstatus = FA | ||
| | maindate = July 14, 2013 | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=FA|1= | |||
| {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
| {{ |
{{WikiProject Books|needs-infobox=}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Christianity |
{{WikiProject Christianity|importance=Low|jesus-work-group=yes}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism|importance=Low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Religious texts|importance=Low}} | |||
| {{WikiProject Ancient Near East|importance=Low}} | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{User:MiszaBot/config | {{User:MiszaBot/config | ||
| |archiveheader = {{aan}} | |archiveheader = {{aan}} | ||
| |maxarchivesize = 100K | |maxarchivesize = 100K | ||
| |counter = |
|counter = 3 | ||
| |minthreadsleft = |
|minthreadsleft = 4 | ||
| |minthreadstoarchive = 2 | |minthreadstoarchive = 2 | ||
| |algo = old(31d) | |algo = old(31d) | ||
| |archive = Talk:Gospel of the Ebionites/Archive %(counter)d | |archive = Talk:Gospel of the Ebionites/Archive %(counter)d | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{ |
{{Archive box|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=30 |search=yes|auto=long }} | ||
| {{Broken anchors|links= | |||
| * <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Pauline passages supporting antinomianism) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Pauline passages supporting antinomianism","appear":{"revid":243765126,"parentid":242747836,"timestamp":"2008-10-07T23:14:40Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":447585560,"parentid":447585414,"timestamp":"2011-08-31T01:33:10Z","replaced_anchors":{"Pauline passages supporting antinomianism":"Pauline passages used to support antinomianism","Pauline passages opposing antinomianism":"Pauline passages used to oppose antinomianism"},"removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"very_different":false,"rename_to":"Pauline passages used to support antinomianism"} --> | |||
| == Question of POV == | |||
| }} | |||
| It has been rather belabored by several people that this topic has not gotten much recent attention. In general, when that happens, one of the most common reasons for such a situation is that there is, basically, not much new to say about it. So far as I can tell, the reference source with the longest entry on the subject is the '']'', which also happens to be one of the most highly, if not perhaps the most highly, regarded relatively recent reference book on the subject out there. That article is roughly a full page long, much longer than any others I have seen. The differences between that reference entry and this article are, honestly, nothing less than amazing to me. I believe that the source is also among the most easily accessible, and I am frankly astonished at the remarkably different content of the two pages, including the comparative disregard in this article to several of the major points in the article in that source, which I believe would be all but impossible if that highly reputable reference source had been consulted much, if at all. I also believe that there is more than sufficient cause to believe that the major editor of this article, Ovadyah/Ignocrates, who has both indicated in the first very first surving edit to his user page indicates a clear interest to "modern Ebionite movements." It is worth noting that none of them, despite several later edits to his talk page about the topic, have ever been demonstrated to have any independent notability, although he apparently took part in an “agreement” in a mediation to create such an article despite lack of notability anyway, as is indicated below. I also believe that Ovadyah/Ignocrates' insistence on the reliability of James Tabor's book '']'', which the author has admitted was not even submitted for academic review, and his refusal to remove or adjust content based on legitimate concerns about the use of that source was one of the primary reasons that article lost FA status. On the basis of all of this, particularly the remarkable variance from the content of the substantial "Anchor Bible Dictionary", particularly without any apparent reason given that I can see for such differences, I believe that there is sufficient reason to believe that POV concerns may be exhibited here. I very much request that independent editors review the related reference sources, including the Anchor Bible Dictionary, which should be rather easily available to most people, and review the matter for the unexplained and apparently undiscussed differences between them. | |||
| I also believe that it might well be extremely useful to have independent editors review all the conduct of all those involved with this topic to see if they believe that there is sufficient basis for a second arbitration hearing, or perhaps a request for administrative action, be started. I am at least temporarily withholding tagging the article for POV, which I believe it clearly deserves, and from nominating it for FAR, which I believe is probably justified, pending some sort of review from other individuals in the near future. Some statements , for instance, which indicate that Ignocrates/Ovadyah displays an extraordinary degree of knowledge of a subject which had at the time, and still has, little if any independent sourced material, and even seems to indicate that he knows that what independent reliable sources say is wrong, is a particularly troubling matter. I believe that there are sufficient grounds for serious consideration of administrative or arbitrator review of this matter, and would be extremely grateful if any independent individual would review the discussion of the topic, particularly that of Ovadyah/Ignocrates. Regarding my own conduct, I have said from the beginning if an independent admin requested me to withdraw my adminship, and demonstrated to me good reason, I would do so myself voluntarily. I will stand by that principle here as well. ] (]) 18:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Fyi, for any interested editors/reviewers: | |||
| *{{cite book |last = Petersen |first = William L. |editor-last = Freedman |editor-first = David Noel |title = The Anchor Bible Dictionary |volume = 2 |contribution = Ebionites, Gospel of the |pages = 261–2 |year = 1992 |publisher = Doubleday |edition = 1 |isbn = 978-0-385-42583-4 |url = }} | |||
| Here is the complete citation for the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' article in the Anchor Bible Dictionary (1992), which I thoroughly reviewed while preparing for FAC. ] (]) 19:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :No reference is made, apparently, to the Justin Martyr statement, That article stresses the fact that this source is seen as a gospel harmony, in even the first few sentences, which is delegated to a truly subordinate position here. The extent of the controversy regarding the Jewish-Christian gospels, which is called near the beginning of that article not on the Jewish-Christian gospels, but the Gospel of the Ebionites, is relegated to a minor position here. I could go on. I also have researched the minimal amount of journal content since that source was published, including JSTOR, ProQuest, EBSCOHost, NewsBank, and others, and have found nothing in them which indicates that the statements in that source have been in any way changed. I have also checked the latest edition of the Zondervan Bible dictionary and other later highly regarded academic reference sources. While they do not go to the same degree of length, given their shorter nature, there is nothing in them which is contradictory. Also, I also urge everyone involved to review the contribution history of Ovadyah/Ignocrates. His truly devout support of Tabor's book in the article on the Ebionites, despite any evidence that it has ever been given any particular academic attention, let alone support, and the fact that, despite the name change, he has over his time as an editor ever edited anything which is not clearly related to the Ebionites, along with his regular support of the non-notable Ebionite Jewish Community, which has since been renamed the Ebionite Community, still with no indication of any reliable sources, or sources at all, other than the group itself, I believe cannot help but raise very serious questions regarding this individual's motivations and whether he is capable of contributing to this topic in a neutral fashion. Other of his comments over the years also raise serious questions. Again, I believe it is in the best interests of the project itself if someone who does not have this editor's rather remarkable almost overriding interest in groups which have never earned any notability in their own right, and barely any mention at all, were to review the material and see if it is neutral and balanced. from Ignocrates is an indication as to why I believe it should be someone who Ignocrates does not regularly demonize who should be doing the review. By the way, the unfounded accusation that I am a "stalker" is unfounded. I do try to check up on all religion based content, and, clearly, someone with as poor a judgment as this editor is someone whose work clearly needs being checked up on. ] (]) 20:06, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::The Justin Martyr material is too speculative to add to the body of the article, except perhaps as a brief footnote. First of all, it is far from obvious that Justin was in possession of an actual gospel harmony, as clearly stated in the article on ]. Second, even if Justin did possess a harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, and the Ebionites also had a harmony of the Synoptic Gospels, it doesn't mean they were related - correlation is not causality. Vielhauer & Strecker (1991) and Klijn (1992), which set the standard for scholarly work on this topic, don't even touch on this subject because it is considered a tiny minority speculation. Btw, as to the "diff" where I alluded to you, I commented that out almost immediately and archived it as a test. The only way you could possibly even be aware of it was by trolling all my edit logs, and "stalking" me. ] (]) 20:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is included in an encyclopedia. Please inform me how it is that you have decided, apparently completely on your own, that not only do you as an individual have more authority than leading reference books, but that you as an individual are someone in a unique capacity to know when the most reliable reference source in the field, with an article probably shorter than this, is somehow "too speculative" for you personally? Are you, in effect, saying that you know more than the experts who have published in the field? Really? And I note that you only addressed a single point of those raised. Can you provide any real reasons for your own apparently unilateral decision that someone like you, by virtue of, apparently, some greater knowledge, know more than the published experts? Also, your defense of the term "stalking" is rather weak. Going over my watchlist during a time when I was editing and seeing you post such a rather silly comment while I was editing is something I think only the most prejudiced would describe as stalking. And, again, you seem to be ignoring the question of the language itself, although, admittedly, I guess that there is a bit of a history of ignoring things you don't like about these subjects? Again, requesting a full review of all the above editors recent history, including as I recall derogation of non-notable neo-Ebionite groups other than the Ebionite Jewish Community/Ebionite Community, for the purposes of determining whether there are sufficient conduct issues for arbitration or administrative review. ] (]) 21:02, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As you are well aware, the same encyclopedic article also reports on Boismard's speculation about a primitive Hebrew Gospel of Matthew underlying the text - a speculation that is universally rejected by modern scholars as fringe scholarship. The point is that some of the material in that article is outdated crap; no modern scholars take it seriously. Featured articles are supposed to comprehensively represent the consensus thinking of modern scholars, where that is possible, and majority vs. minority views in a balanced manner; however, they are not required to be exhaustive in their coverage of fringe views. ] (]) 21:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Really? Universally? Do you have a source for that, as per ]? So far as I can tell, there has been, as you have said repeatedly, very little recent scholarship on the subject. I myself have seen nothing which really indicates that it is "rejected" as fringe. Also, again, this reference work is only 20 or 30 years old, and in the interim there has been only rare attention given to this document at all. That being the case, the size of this "universal rejection" would seem to be only a few papers which have discussed the subject at all, and few if any dealt with that topic directly. And, please, cease from attempting to recast the statements of others in a perjorative matter. My point is, to what degree is someone who is to all practical purposes more or less a SPA account dealing with a subject which he also seems to have, based on his previous history, a possible POV concern, in a position to on his own, possibly in violation of ], determine what material is appropriate for an article regarding which he has a rather I believe clear history of POV pushing? And how is it that you are today in a position to apparently declare by personal fiat such statements of fact? I believe ] might apply here, particularly given the extremely small size of this "universe" to which you refer. Also, by the way, have you ever read ]? One editor's personal opinions, regardless of however self-aggrandizing that editor might be, is still, basically, one editor's opinion. If you have evidence that one of the most highly regarded reference sources of recent years is as ''universally'' rejected as you say, then you can presumably provide evidence of that rejection? Also, again, please address some of the other issues as well, including the juvenile commentary, if, of course, you deign to respond to the comments of individuals whom you see fit to address with such snarling incivility. ] (]) 21:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::As recent reviews of the field by Broadhead (2010) and Paget (2010) make clear, there has been a considerable amount of research done in this field since Klijn published the definitive work on the subject in 1992. Try reading some of it and come back when you know something about the subject. ] (]) 21:48, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Btw, in addition to ] there is also ]. I don't have to prove the crap you want to add is fringe. You have to prove it isn't by demonstrating these subjects represent a consensus or a significant enough minority view among modern scholars to merit inclusion. ] (]) 22:01, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::First, Ignocrates, I have to say that this is the first time I have ever seen anyone display the really amazing degree of absolute gall to call one of the best, most highly regarded sources of recent years "crap." Maybe, if you can, stop indulging in your gratuitous incivility and maybe, if you can, ''actually read the material.'' Let me put it bluntly. '''I believe I have met BURDEN requirements by producing an article which is possibly/probably shorter than this one, from one of the most highly regarded short articles in recent years, about a topic which you have repeatedly said has received little attention of any kind.'' What part of that comparatively simple statment is so clearly beyond your capacity to understand? Also, I have checked not only JSTOR, which produces little if any matches for the Gospel of the Ebionites at all, as well as the more recent reference sources since the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Honestly, I feel that I have to ask this question. Are you so blinding convinced of your own personal opinions regarding this topic that you so clearly place them before the comments in the recent reference sources on the material? And, in addition to the gratuitous use of profanity above, I once again ask anyone who sees this discussion to review the entire history of this editor Ovadyah/Ignocrates, do determine if there does exist, as I believe there does, sufficient basis to request either arbitration review of his conduct or perhaps some other form of more direct administrative action. ] (]) 22:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::My conduct is an open book; if you think there is a sufficient basis for review then do something about it. ] (]) 22:34, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Noting once again failure to respond to any other points, and addressing only one which has been raised more than once now. Honestly, Ignocrates, are you so blinded by your obvious emotionalism about this topic that you can not only read through comparatively short beginning posts, but can also only apparently respond to any of multiple points on an item by item basis? Is there any chance of your addressing other matters, as well, or is pretty much as close to really addressing points raised as can be expected of you? And, just out of curiosity, do you think that there is any chance you can refrain from further basically pointless posts, like the one above, so that others who might take part don't have to read through such wastes of energy? ] (]) 22:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::I can't waste anymore of my time arguing. If you have something you believe merits inclusion, make a detailed proposal on the talk page about what it is and how you propose to include it. ] (]) 22:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::::First, I urge you to maybe familiarize yourself with policies and guidelines, in this case including ] and ]. Like I basically said earlier, this article looks to me to be, basically, far far short of the standard of even a good article. Much like, unfortunately, the rather dreadful and sub-par ] article was before other more experienced editors with perhaps a bit better grasp of policies and guidelines became involved. It is not so much a matter of what needs to be included. At this point, the problems seem to me to be very possibly dealing with ], and I believe that what may well be required is the involvement of other editors who may not be quite as devoted to their opinions as some other editors are. Like I also said earlier, I am willing to wait a week or so for other input before filing the FAR myself. However, I do have to say that I am more than amused by what seem to me to be a display of a rather poor, if not very poor, grasp of the existing level of academic opinion on this subject displayed by, well, you. In general, a GA or FA class article should probably at least say most if not all of the things that are said in similar articles in other reference sources, particularly if, as is true with this article, those sources are almost all much shorter. ''The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church'', third edition revised, edited by F. L. Cross and E. A Livingstone, 2005, Oxford University Press, 0-19-280290-9, p. 526 has an article published in 2205 on this topic, which runs more or less as follows: | |||
| :“Ebionites, Gospel of the. The name given by modern scholars to the Jewish-Christian apocryphal Gospel supposed to have been used by the Ebionites (q.v). Irenaeus says that the Ebionites use the 'Gospel according to Matthew' … though from the beliefs he ascribes to them … it seems that this cannot be identified with the canonical Mt. Eusebius … on the other hand, says that they use the 'Gospel according to the Hebrews'. The principal authority is Epiphanius... He not only states that the Ebionites 'receive the Gospel according to Matthew' and 'call it the Hebrew Gospel,' but he quotes passages from the Gospel used by the Ebionites. These show that it was written in Greek. The relationship between this Gospel and the 'Gospel of the Nazarenes' and the 'Gospel according to the Hebrews' is unclear; they are perhaps quite distinct.” | |||
| :The bibliography includes 6 works, including a few early translations, Neuetestamentliche Apocryphen, Waitz' 1937 article, and, the last 2, Boismard's 1966 article and Petersen's article in the Anchor Bible Dictionary. | |||
| On the basis of that recent reference source, I would have to say that not only are the stated objections to Boismard apparently unfounded, but that individuals expressing such objections might be seen as having little, if any, real familiarity with the existing reliable sources on this topic, and that the article might benefit if they were to perhaps allow others who do not have the potential POV problems they have to edit it without threats to be taken to ANI or other harrassing conduct which has been displayed when others have questioned the work of, well, some editors here. Basically, I think like with the ] article, what might be most required here is basically another total rewrite, preferably without interference by biased editors. I have already pointed out specific concerns regarding the minor emphasis this article gives to the pretty much absolute agreement of academia that this work is a gospel harmony. That should probably be stated in the very first sentence. The questions about its origins and influences as expressed in reference books probably deserve similar attention here as well. | |||
| If certain editors could stop wasting their own time, and that of others, basically whining to some surrogate mother whenever someone questions their apparently biased and sometimes poorly founded opinions, as has happened repeatedly regarding this topic and others, and maybe drop a bit of the all-too-evident ego that is displayed, that would help a lot. Unfortunately, I am far from sure that there is any reasonable chance of that happening given the current situation. I will, however, give the matter a week, like I said, before taking action myself. ] (]) 22:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :<S>The featured article is locked until July 15th.</S> However, you can leave a detailed list of your suggestions/concerns here on the talk page in the interim. Meanwhile, I am working on restarting the . That will be the quickest way to get these conduct issues resolved permanently. ] (]) 22:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::I will check out the article in the Oxford Dictionary (2005) for myself tomorrow. Thanks for the reference. ] (]) 23:41, 24 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Okay, I'm offering an opinion about this article as a hopefully disinterested party, although I admit I did offer criticism on this article as it was being worked on for Featured Article. First, the subject of the "Gospel of the Ebionites" is full of speculation, inference, & not in the least controversial. When I offered criticism of this article, that was a major concern of mine & I feel that Ignocrates/Ovadyah responded to that concern responsibly. What is stated here reflects my understanding of recent scholarly findings (based on such sources as Bart Ehrman, ''Lost Christianities'' & Fred Lapham, ''An Introduction to the New Testament Apocrypha''). Where this article differs from hat the article in the Anchor Bible Dictionary states, I don't know; I just saw this discussion & haven't had the chance to consult a copy of that book, & it may take me some time to consult a copy due to my schedule. It would be helpful if John Carter were to lay out the '''specific''' points where this article varies from what is written in the Anchor Bible article. | |||
| I will guess to a few points John Carter objects, & offer some responses. One is that this gospel -- as stated by Irenaeus & Eusebius -- was a version of Matthew written in Hebrew (or Aramaic). However, after reading both Ehrman & Lapham's books, it's clear that scholar consensus believes the work cited by Epiphanius is a harmony of at least the synoptic gospels; the brief arguments they present are understandable by the layman. Why a close reading contradicts the testimony of Irenaeus & Eusebius, I can't say: I'm not knowledgeable enough to say, & ] keeps me from doing so. | |||
| As for Justin Martyr's connection to this work, I'm unclear what it is. I looked through the writings of Justin at www.ccel.org, & the only thing I could find was an oblique reference to Jewish Christians in his "Dialogue with Trypho", ch. 47. I could find no reference to Justin Martyr alluding to either the Ebionites or their gospel specifically in the secondary sources. | |||
| As for using questionable sources, I believe all of the sources in this article meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines for reliable sources. The two authorities cited most often in this article--Luomanen & Skarsaune--are published by respectable publishers & their publications are cited by other authorities. One can read much of Paget 2010's article online at the link in the article for oneself, & see what the current ideas about this lost writing are. There are no novel or unusual ideas in this article that can't be found in the current expert literature. | |||
| Now for two other, non-content, issues here. One is that all articles about Early Christianity will be controversial for the indefinite future. For one thing, it is a subject where, as I noted above, speculation & inference greatly outweighs the existing evidence. For another, much of the scholarly &/or expert research is to some degree at variance with widely-held religious beliefs. Specifically, for at least 100 years experts have studied the Bible not as an inerrant text, but as one demonstrating human bias with subtexts of meaning. This is an approach that is guaranteed to make some people unhappy, who will not listen to reason or to pleas for harmony or tolerance. I don't think that's the problem here, but I know it will be at some future time. | |||
| The other non-content issue is this. The two individuals in this discussion--John Carter & Ignocrates--have a long history with each other, which is regrettable because both are knowledgeable about this topic, & sincere about getting the facts right. I suspect this is why John Carter mentions James Tabor above, a writer whose name appears nowhere in this article & has no place in it. I don't know what to do about this conflict, beyond suggesting that each should try to avoid the other. | |||
| I hope I have made it clear that there is no pressing need for this article to undergo a Featured Article Review, nor anyone to give up his or her Adminship, or for any other drastic actions concerning this article. I do think everyone involved should take a step back, partake of their favorite beverage (if desired), & move on to other matters. If this article does find its place on Misplaced Pages's Front page, that may attract new attention from knowledgeable parties who may, indeed, find problems in the article. But waiting until then is not going to harm anything.--] (]) 19:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| With regard to having this work reviewed, I welcome any and all reviews, as long as they are based on reliably-sourced facts rather than hearsay comments and innuendo. Bring your evidence to the talk page in the form of reliable sources, with page numbers and quotations from them, to back up your claims. That was the point of having two peer reviews, GAN and FAC. ] (]) 21:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| So far, the following subjects have been mentioned from the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' article in the Anchor Bible Dictionary (1992): | |||
| 1. A possible gospel harmony written by Justin Martyr and its putative relationship to the Gospel of the Ebionites | |||
| 2. A speculation by Boismard that a primitive Hebrew Gospel of Matthew underlies the Gospel of the Ebionites | |||
| I don't see any sources published in the last 20 years that support these speculations. Would any editors/reviewers care to comment on these subjects, and back up your comments with evidence to support inclusion? ] (]) 21:42, 23 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ; List of sources: | |||
| *{{cite book | last = Bellinzoni |first = Arthur J. | title = The Sayings of Jesus in the Writings of Justin Martyr | publisher = Brill | year = 1967 | asin = B0007ISJW6 | url = http://books.google.com/books?id=2cw3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+sayings+of+Jesus+in+the+writings+of+Justin+Martyr#v=onepage&q&f=false}} | |||
| *{{cite journal |last = Bertrand |first = Daniel A. |month = July |year = 1980 |title = L'Evangile Des Ebionites: Une Harmonie Evangelique Anterieure Au Diatessaron |journal = New Testament Studies |volume = 26 |issue = 04 |pages = 548–63 |publisher = Cambridge University Press |doi = 10.1017/S0028688500005816 |url = |language = French}} | |||
| *{{cite journal |last = Boismard |first = Marie-Émile |authorlink = Marie-Émile Boismard |year = 1966 |title = Évangile des Ébionites et problème synoptique |journal = Revue biblique |volume = 73 |issue = 1–4 |pages = 321–52 |publisher = Lecoffre |issn = 0035-0907 |url = |language = French}} | |||
| *{{cite book |last = |first = |editor1-last = Cross |editor1-first = Frank Leslie |editor2-last = Livingstone |editor2-first = Elizabeth Anne |title = The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church |contribution = Ebionites, Gospel according to the |page = 526 |year = 2005 |origyear = 1997 |publisher = Oxford University Press |edition = 3 |isbn = 978-0-19-280290-3 |url = }} (no contributing author cited) | |||
| *{{cite journal |last = Howard |first = George |authorlink = George Howard (Hebraist)|year = 1988 |title = The Gospel of the Ebionites |journal = Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt |volume = 2 |series = 25 |issue = 5 |pages = 4034–53 |publisher = Walter De Gruyter |isbn = 978-3-11-001885-1 |url = }} | |||
| *{{cite book |last = Petersen |first = William L. |editor-last = Freedman |editor-first = David Noel |title = The Anchor Bible Dictionary |volume = 2 |contribution = Ebionites, Gospel of the |pages = 261–2 |year = 1992 |publisher = Doubleday |edition = 1 |isbn = 978-0-385-42583-4 |url = }} | |||
| ; Findings so far; | |||
| I read the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' article in the Oxford Dictionary, cited above. There is nothing in here that is problematic in terms of content. However, it can't be used as an encyclopedic source because the contributing author is not named (similar to the Encyclopedia Britannica). Another problem is its brevity - the article is really more like a summary digest than a full encyclopedic article. However, the article lists Boismard's journal article and the Anchor Bible Dictionary encyclopedic article as sources (citations shown above). It's not clear what specific content is being supported by these sources. Nevertheless, their presence as endnote citations indicates that both should be considered to be reliable sources. This point of argument goes to John Carter, as far as possible inclusion as sources in this article. ] (]) 23:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The content of the Anchor Bible Dictionary article on the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' is unproblematic and a typical summary of the subject from the beginning of the article to the material on Boismard's conjecture. There is an intervening section about the Ebionites – who they were as a group – which is also unproblematic. All of this material is already covered in the article and backed up by reliable secondary sources. ] (]) 21:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ; Hebrew Gospel of Matthew | |||
| Next, I'm going to cover Boismard's speculation about a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew as an underlying source of the ''Gospel of the Ebionites''. I was the one that raised this issue above as fringe scholarship. The Anchor Bible article compares Boismard's conjecture as a dissenting opinion to the modern consensus view of Vielhaur in Schneemelcher's ''New Testament Apocrypha'' first edition (1963). I quote the text as follows (with text separated to avoid of copyright violations): | |||
| {{quotation| A dissenting position, however, is that of Boismard, who detects two traditions in Epiphanius' quotations from the gospel used by the Ebionites. One is a later, more developed tradition, which is probably a Greek language original;}} | |||
| {{quotation| the second is a much more primitive tradition and has a strong imprint of a Semitic language. It is this latter tradition which Boismard equates with the Hebrew (i.e. pre-Greek) recension of Matthew - the document described by Epiphanius.|Petersen, W.L.|The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol.2|p.262}} | |||
| I'm going to stipulate that this is an accurate summary of Boismard's original article in French. ] (]) 00:00, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Having reread the Anchor Bible article, I am retracting my statement that this conjecture is universally regarded as fringe scholarship. It is a minority view surely, probably a tiny minority view, but it is not fringe. The Misplaced Pages article on the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' already mentions a putative linkage between the GEbi and a hypothetical Hebrew Gospel in the lead and the body, so this information should be easy to incorporate. I propose to cite the Anchor Bible Dictionary reference in the lead and add a citation of Boismard's journal article to the body along with a note containing a paraphrase of the above second quotation. ] (]) 00:18, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| To provide a counter-point to this perspective, I'm going to cite Gregory (2008), which is already a source, with a quotation in a note as follows: | |||
| {{quotation|The reasons for believing that Matthew was composed in Greek are so compelling that the quest for a Hebrew original is best regarded as a dead end, no matter how romantic its pursuit might seem.|Gregory|The Non-canonical Gospels|p.55}} | |||
| I think these additions will adequately support the content on the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew in the article. ] (]) 13:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :I have implemented the suggested changes to the article. ] (]) 18:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Moving forward == | |||
| ; Justin Martyr's gospel harmony | |||
| Now that arbitration has ], it's time to put it behind us and move forward. Imo, the article is reasonably complete and stable as it stands. Therefore, I will be making occasional updates to the content as new academic views are published. In particular, there is a renewed interest in the history of gospel harmonies that may be reflected here as the GEbi is discussed in the context of the harmonizing traditions of the second and third centuries. ] (]) 00:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The content about Justin Martyr follows the discussion about Boismard's conjecture. Rather than comment on it at this point, I'm going to show it as a series of quotations: | |||
| ==Proposal for 2014== | |||
| {{quotation|1. Investigations into the gospel text of Justin shows that he used a harmony which incorporated the Synoptics but not John (Bellinzoni, 1967, p.140)}} | |||
| I agree with In Ictu Oculi that we should avoid "fringe theories" about this topic. The fact that the ] was "composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples makes it unlikely there is any connection with Indeed the Ebionite theologies of vegetarianism, Adoptionist Christology, etc pretty much precludes this possibility. I would strongly suggest we steer clear of any major changes to this article. Now that arbitration has ], I would propose we let Ignocrates smooth out any rough edges. I have little to add. All in all good work! Happy New Year! ] (]) 14:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{quotation|2. The date of Justin's gospel text, its harmonized form, and its failure to incorporate John are all reminiscent of the Ebionite gospel. The relationship between Justin's gospel and the Ebionite gospel, if any, is unclear at present.}} | |||
| :There are no "fringe theories" in this article I am aware of, per ]; however, ] is always subject to interpretation. I welcome any suggestions for ways to further refine and improve the article content. ] (]) 17:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| {{quotation|3. It is plain, however, that the genre was known, and Bertrand has argued that the harmonized ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' antedates the Diatessaron of Tatian, which was composed about 170 CE.|Petersen|The Anchor Bible Dictionary|p.262}} | |||
| == Vielhauer & Strecker composition order == | |||
| The rest of the Anchor Bible Dictionary article to the end is unproblematic and already covered in this Misplaced Pages article, supported by reliable secondary sources. ] (]) 21:56, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I can't do anything about this, since it would be original research, but their ordering is clearly wrong: | |||
| The content of the third quotation above is unproblematic and covered in the article. I could, and probably should, add Bertrand as a source to back up the content that is already there. Frankly, I missed this reference because Bertrand published in French. Bringing this article up to FA quality has made me keenly aware of my deficiencies in reading publications in French and German; deficiencies I plan to remedy, but it will take time. ] (]) 22:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| 30.13.2-4 is quoted in one chunk so breaking it up makes little sense to begin with; furthermore 30.13.2 introduces Jesus, while 30.13.7 has Jesus without an introduction, so placing 13.7 after 13.3 is illogical; finally Epiphanius say that 30.13.7 comes "a good deal" after 30.13.6 yet Vielhauer and Strecker only fill this gap with one line (30.13.4) even if that requires them to both break up a quote and disregard logical internal continuity. | |||
| The meaning of the first two quotations probably seems straightforward to a reader who is unfamiliar with the peer-reviewed literature. Bellinzoni is cited as a source for the statement in quotation 1 "Investigations into <U>the gospel text of Justin</U> shows that <U>he used a harmony<U> which incorporated the Synoptics but not John (Bellinzoni, 1967, p.140) (underlines are mine). The plain meaning of this statement is that Justin used a gospel harmony somehow associated with him (whether, written by him or merely used by him is not made clear). The problem is that Bellinzoni is not discussing a gospel harmony here (p.140); he is summarizing conclusions about a primitive Christian catechism. Bellinzoni concludes that Justin's principle sources for his harmonistic materials were a Christian catechism and a reference manual (''vade mecum'') against heresies. With respect to Justin's composition of a gospel harmony, Bellinzoni further states on p.141, and I quote here: | |||
| Evidently Epiphanius meant the beginning of this gospel to be something closer to this: | |||
| {{quotation|It must, however, be emphasized that there is absolutely no evidence that Justin ever composed a complete harmony of the Synoptic Gospels; his harmonies were of linited scope and were apparently composed for didactic purposes.|Bellinzoni|The Sayings of Jesus in the Writings of Justin Martyr|p.141}} | |||
| {{Quotation|It came to pass in the days of Herod, King of Judaea under the high priest Caiaphas, that John came and baptized with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan; he is said to be from the tribe of Aaron and a son of Zacharias the priest and of Elizabeth and all went out to him. (13.6) There was a man named Jesus, and he was about thirty years old; he has chosen us. And He came into Capernaum and entered into the house of Simon, surnamed Peter, and He opened His mouth and said, 'As I walked by the Sea of Tiberias, I chose John and James, the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew and Thaddaeus and Simon Zelotes, and Judas Iscariot; thee also, Matthew, when thou wast sitting at the receipt of custom, did I call and thou didst follow me. According to my intention ye shall be twelve apostles for a testimony unto Israel'. And it came to pass when John baptized, that the Pharisees came to him and were baptized, and all Jerusalem also. He had a garment of camels' hair, and a leather girdle about his loins. And his meat was wild honey, which tasted like manna, formed like cakes of oil. (13.2b–4) The people having been baptized, Jesus came also, and was baptized by John. And as he came out of the water the heavens opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit descending under the form of a dove, and entering into him. And a voice was heard from heaven: 'Thou art my beloved Son, and in thee am I well pleased'. And again: 'This day have I begotten thee'. And suddenly shone a great light in that place. And John seeing him, said, 'Who art thou, Lord'? Then a voice was heard from heaven: 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'. Thereat John fell at his feet and said: 'I pray thee, Lord, baptize me'. But he would not, saying 'Suffer it, for so it behoveth that all should be accomplished'. (13.7-8)}} | |||
| Therefore, one has to interpret the meaning of quotation1 narrowly as "harmonistic materials containing gospel sayings used by Justin" for this statement to be factually accurate. I'm not sure a non-expert reader would do that. I flagged this discrepancy immediately, which is one reason I elected to not use the ABD as a source. ] (]) 17:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The only problem here is that it disagree with the order of events in the canonical gospels by placing the Call of the first Disciples before the Baptism of Jesus, but this changes comes naturally from this gospel having the Apostles collectively be the narrators. (Also note the possibility that there might be even more text between 13.6 and 13.7 that Epiphanius did not quote.) --] (]) 02:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Bellinzoni continues by comparing the harmonistic materials used by Justin to the harmonistic materials used in the homily known as 2 ''Clement''. He points out that 2 ''Clement'' was probably written before Justin composed his first ''Apology'' and his ''Dialogue'', pointing out that: | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| {{quotation|2 ''Clement'' merely indicates that there were in use before Justin's period written gospel harmonies, which served as models for the harmonies used and perhaps composed by Justin. Justin's similarities to 2 ''Clement'' are no more than would be expected when two different harmonies of the Synoptic Gospels are composed.|Bellinzoni|The Sayings of Jesus in the Writings of Justin Martyr|p.142}} | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| Bellinzoni does not make a comparison between the harmonistic materials Justin used and the ''Gospel of the Ebionites''. ] (]) 17:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| All of the above analysis with respect to Justin leads me to believe that the statements in quotation2 – the assumption that Justin used a gospel harmony and the comparison of that harmony to the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'' – are the result of Petersen's own original research rather than based on any reliable secondary sources. I don't think a tertiary source like an encyclopedic dictionary should be creating original research. Therefore, it is my opinion that if this ABD article is going to be used, it should be supported by reliable secondary sources as backup. That is the subject I will address in the next segment. ] (]) 17:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131015065755/http://www.scribd.com/doc/127513361/Hans-Joachim-Schoeps-Jewish-Christianity-Factional-Disputes-in-the-Early-Church-Fortress-Press-1969 to https://www.scribd.com/doc/127513361/Hans-Joachim-Schoeps-Jewish-Christianity-Factional-Disputes-in-the-Early-Church-Fortress-Press-1969 | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
| ; Secondary sources | |||
| Scholar ], who is already listed as a source (Bauckham, 2003) in this article, notes the following about the ''Gospel of the Ebionites'': | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| {{quotation|George Howard has also shown that in many specific respects its text is typical of the harmonizing tendencies of the second century, both in transmission of the gospel texts themselves and in the use of the texts by writers such as Justin.|Bauckham|The Image of the Judeo-Christians in Ancient Jewish and Christian Literature|p.172}} | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 10:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| It may take me a few more days to track down Howard's scholarly publication to get a more complete description from the original source; however, even Bauckham's brief note in passing about Justin's use of harmonized materials, based on a reliable secondary source, should have priority over Petersen's unsourced statement in the 1992 ABD, which appears to be a summary of Howard's 1988 work without attribution. ] (]) 23:46, 29 June 2013 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 02:33, 12 March 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gospel of the Ebionites article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
 | Gospel of the Ebionites is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 14, 2013. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| This article is rated FA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 Archives | |||
|
|||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 31 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
 |
Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
|
Moving forward
Now that arbitration has ended, it's time to put it behind us and move forward. Imo, the article is reasonably complete and stable as it stands. Therefore, I will be making occasional updates to the content as new academic views are published. In particular, there is a renewed interest in the history of gospel harmonies that may be reflected here as the GEbi is discussed in the context of the harmonizing traditions of the second and third centuries. Ignocrates (talk) 00:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Proposal for 2014
I agree with In Ictu Oculi that we should avoid "fringe theories" about this topic. The fact that the Gospel of the Ebionites was "composed in Greek many years after the time of the Disciples makes it unlikely there is any connection with Hypothetical Hebrew Gospel. Indeed the Ebionite theologies of vegetarianism, Adoptionist Christology, etc pretty much precludes this possibility. I would strongly suggest we steer clear of any major changes to this article. Now that arbitration has ended, I would propose we let Ignocrates smooth out any rough edges. I have little to add. All in all good work! Happy New Year! Ret.Prof (talk) 14:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- There are no "fringe theories" in this article I am aware of, per WP:FRINGE; however, WP:WEIGHT is always subject to interpretation. I welcome any suggestions for ways to further refine and improve the article content. Ignocrates (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Vielhauer & Strecker composition order
I can't do anything about this, since it would be original research, but their ordering is clearly wrong:
30.13.2-4 is quoted in one chunk so breaking it up makes little sense to begin with; furthermore 30.13.2 introduces Jesus, while 30.13.7 has Jesus without an introduction, so placing 13.7 after 13.3 is illogical; finally Epiphanius say that 30.13.7 comes "a good deal" after 30.13.6 yet Vielhauer and Strecker only fill this gap with one line (30.13.4) even if that requires them to both break up a quote and disregard logical internal continuity.
Evidently Epiphanius meant the beginning of this gospel to be something closer to this:
It came to pass in the days of Herod, King of Judaea under the high priest Caiaphas, that John came and baptized with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan; he is said to be from the tribe of Aaron and a son of Zacharias the priest and of Elizabeth and all went out to him. (13.6) There was a man named Jesus, and he was about thirty years old; he has chosen us. And He came into Capernaum and entered into the house of Simon, surnamed Peter, and He opened His mouth and said, 'As I walked by the Sea of Tiberias, I chose John and James, the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew and Thaddaeus and Simon Zelotes, and Judas Iscariot; thee also, Matthew, when thou wast sitting at the receipt of custom, did I call and thou didst follow me. According to my intention ye shall be twelve apostles for a testimony unto Israel'. And it came to pass when John baptized, that the Pharisees came to him and were baptized, and all Jerusalem also. He had a garment of camels' hair, and a leather girdle about his loins. And his meat was wild honey, which tasted like manna, formed like cakes of oil. (13.2b–4) The people having been baptized, Jesus came also, and was baptized by John. And as he came out of the water the heavens opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit descending under the form of a dove, and entering into him. And a voice was heard from heaven: 'Thou art my beloved Son, and in thee am I well pleased'. And again: 'This day have I begotten thee'. And suddenly shone a great light in that place. And John seeing him, said, 'Who art thou, Lord'? Then a voice was heard from heaven: 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'. Thereat John fell at his feet and said: 'I pray thee, Lord, baptize me'. But he would not, saying 'Suffer it, for so it behoveth that all should be accomplished'. (13.7-8)
The only problem here is that it disagree with the order of events in the canonical gospels by placing the Call of the first Disciples before the Baptism of Jesus, but this changes comes naturally from this gospel having the Apostles collectively be the narrators. (Also note the possibility that there might be even more text between 13.6 and 13.7 that Epiphanius did not quote.) --Painocus (talk) 02:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Gospel of the Ebionites. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131015065755/http://www.scribd.com/doc/127513361/Hans-Joachim-Schoeps-Jewish-Christianity-Factional-Disputes-in-the-Early-Church-Fortress-Press-1969 to https://www.scribd.com/doc/127513361/Hans-Joachim-Schoeps-Jewish-Christianity-Factional-Disputes-in-the-Early-Church-Fortress-Press-1969
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:26, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Categories:- Misplaced Pages featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Old requests for peer review
- FA-Class Book articles
- WikiProject Books articles
- FA-Class Christianity articles
- Low-importance Christianity articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- FA-Class Veganism and Vegetarianism articles
- Low-importance Veganism and Vegetarianism articles
- WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism articles
- FA-Class Ancient Near East articles
- Low-importance Ancient Near East articles
- Ancient Near East articles by assessment