Misplaced Pages

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

• Score 6-2 in favor of KEEP. There are 6 KEEP and 2 delete if you count the anonymous post on the talk page here and C.Fred voting to keep that it WAS NOT A HOAX. And there are maybe one or two more who protected it as not a hoax as well. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 19:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Calm down. Score isn't kept. The main issue is whether this article meets WP:N and WP:BIO. Articles stay here for roughly 7 days (sometimes more) unless they get speedy deleted (which this one won't). LionMans Account (talk) 19:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm a zen master. Notability for Football Association players is defined as having played in a fully professinal league. The subject of my article has played in more than one fully professional league. This is satisfied by reference #7 from the fully professional USL league (and the other leagues but they aren't even needed to establish subject's notability, they are just extra padding for my claims.) And yes, it seems the score is kept. The deletion of articles is defined by Misplaced Pages to be determined by the consensus (score) of the editors who say KEEP or DELETE. Here is the football notability link for you. The links you posted WP:N and WP:BIO both link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability_%28sports%29#Association_football it says in item 2 that "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league, will generally be regarded as notable." and all of the subjects leagues are listed in the list of fully professional leagues at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues. Thanks again for your help in fortifying my proof and claims. The issue is really simply proved by reference #7, but like I said there are 9 other references supporting and providing further proof from 3rd party, reputable, newspapers and magazines and official team and league web sites. At this point I feel that you should read your own links (as well as the transfer lists) that you posted and change your vote to KEEP. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, you found a reference showing he played for San Diego Gauchos, who played in USL Premier Development League, an amateur league. Seriously, calm down. LionMans Account (talk) 21:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

User:LionsMans Account Errrrr- wrong. You must be looking at the wrong link. The page linked clearly says USL Professional League and that is clearly listed on the list of fully professional leagues at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

Keep trying, maybe you'll say that the Serie A where Pele and Neymar played isn't professional too? In fact the subject lived and played in the same city as Pele and on the same team as Neymar. Please stop with the horsing around when you've been proven wrong a real man admits it. Change your vote to KEEP Fussballspieler11 (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, USL Second Division (I was incorrect). At the time though, they were in the third tier for US Soccer. I was able to find information showing he played in one other game. However, it is still extremely difficult to show notablity (other than an article simply saying he played in 2 games). LionMans Account (talk) 01:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User:LionMans Account] Why do you keep saying things like this when you know they aren't true? http://soccerstats.us/bios/jordan-older/ shows 4 games.

Here is another FULLY PRO LEAGUE GAME he appeared in: http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435

and another http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529

This is actually a lot of references for small defunct pro soccer league from 2003 in America. The main reference is the feature article from the top soccer newspaper in Brazil http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol

This is also good and says he played professional in Europe and Brazil and is a VALID reference since it is a full newspaper article: http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html

And just to remind you. Every team this player has played for is listed as a fully professional league. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues

Brazil BRA CONMEBOL Campeonato Brasileiro Série A Yes

Campeonato Brasileiro Série B Yes

Campeonato Paulista Série A1 Yes

I appreciate your efforts and thank you for letting me provide the correct information for you so you will know the truth. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 06:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually the reference shows him playing for the Gauchos when they were in a professional league. If you look at it you'll find a drop-down to let you find matches by league. The league for that game is USL PRO, ergo Older played in a professional league.--FergusM1970 23:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The information you have is incorrect. The San Diego Gauchos played in the USL Professional League in 2003 when the subject appeared for them. In later years they dropped to the amateur league. You are seriously uninformed and mis-representing the facts again. Just read the link from reference #7 it clearly says USL "Pro Soccer League" and is dated 2003. Fussballspieler11 (talk) Here is the link for reference #7. http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html I have other ones too that clearly say USL "Pro Soccer League" where the subject played. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 22:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)' Note: even the URL says "uslpro" while the PDL (amateur) part of their web site for the amateur teams has a different sub-section of the site noted by a different URL, differen label on the page, and a different banner that says PDL not USL PRO.

Shown here

http://pdl.uslsoccer.com/ <-- amateur

http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html <-- professional

You've now spent over 8 hours trying to prove the unprovable to get my article deleted. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• KEEP User:Jogurney Thanks for your comments, but you need to look over the references again. Your comments don't match and since 2007 all the references are new. So maybe you need to be updated? Some points: 1) the Ventura County Star is not used as a reference for any of the notability, only to support the Ventura Film Festival information. It was never used to claim anything about soccer. 2) There are three(3) independent newspapers covering and supporting that the subject played in a "fully-pro" league. It's a simple concept. Either he appeared in a game in a league listed as fully pro (he did) or not. That's all that's required to be notable according to http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NFOOTBALL#Association_football . The league is listed as a fully pro league, so is the Brazilian Serie A and Paulista Serie A, that's 3 fully-pro leagues verified by indpendent sources. 3) you said the the leauge is not fully pro? Why then is it then listed on Misplaced Pages as being fully pro? http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues 4) you are mis-representing the number of minutes played, it's surely not a "few minutes" http://soccerstats.us/bios/jordan-older/ shows its 4 games in 2003 for the USL2 during the players retirement years, his mid 30's 5) What are your motives for down playing this players accomplishments over a 5 year period? 6) Futebol Interior is not a local newspaper it covers all of the top soccer and sports news in Brazil and is one of the top 900 most visited web sites in all of Brazil and is ranked as very athoritative by Alexa. This is why I used it for the first reference. It's the most clear and impressive reference and then is followed by the Palos Verdes News, then followed by the official game report from the USL Pro leauge. That's 3 qualifying references that aren't just "local news". It's been 6 years since you last called to delete this article so please update yourself on the new references since you are clearly off a little bit by saying the Ventura County Star was used, at all to support any soccer claims in my article, because it was not in anyway used for this. I'm not calling you blind but you must have mis-read things. Thanks again for taking time to review my article. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 05:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Procedural note. A user should only have one !vote (keep, delete, etc.) on the page. If they change their mind, they should strike out the old recommendation. Since you've duplicated your keep recommendation across multiple comments, I've struck this one. —C.Fred (talk) 05:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks C.Fred. Here's a communication I just posted to Jogurny's talk page:

User:Jogurney I'm concerened that you didn't really read the article and it's references.

You made some very inacurrate comments:

1) Ventura County Star was used to reference soccer claims

- this never happened, the Ventura County Star articles were in reference to the subject being the founder of the Ventura Film Festival and listing the celebrity guests, nothing about soccer here

2) subject played in "probably not in a fully-pro league"

- reference 1 lists 3 teams in the Paulista Serie A and 1 team in the Brazilian Serie A, these are THE biggest leagues in Brazil and are listed as fully professional at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- reference 7 lists the USL Pro Soccer League (USL 1 or 2) where the subject played 4 games in 2003, these are not the biggest leagues in the USA but they are listed as fully professional at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- reference 3 lists that the subject played professionally in Brazil and Europe and so much so that he is able to orchestrate player transfers of local kids into the German Bundesliga

3) the official Sao Paulo FC fan site/blog from 1999 lists the same 3 teams as the Futebol Interior feature article, which I found on the first page of Futebol Interior

- reference 1 lists 3 teams in the Paulista Serie A and 1 team in the Brazilian Serie A, these are THE biggest leagues in Brazil and are listed as fully professional at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

- it also lists him as playing along site Sao Paulo FC star defender in Wilson

4) You're quick to support the deletion of this players article, 6 years later, when all the references are new and you clearly didn't read them (based on your mistaken claims) so I'm wondering if you have some kind of vendetta? 6 years is a long time for you to be doing this.

Thanks for your time, never the less. I respect your right to disagree.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 05:31, 10 July 2013 (UTC)'

Comment. I don't appreciate the tone of your reply, but let me address your concerns. I mentioned the VC Star article because I found it while searching for online sources about Jordan Older. The author states that Older was a former pro soccer player, but it provides no evidence that he played even a single competitive match or that the leagues he might have played in were fully-pro. To date, the only league I can be confident he appeared in the USL Second (with the Gauchos) for 100+ minutes. The is very borderline even on a strict interpretation that one second of play in a fully-pro league (if indeed the USL Second was fully-pro at the time) is enough to meet NFOOTBALL (despite loads of AfDs which have held that the GNG needs to be met). While I understand that there are sources noting Older was under contract at fully-pro Brazilian clubs, there is no indication that he ever appeared for one of them in a competitive match in a fully-pro league. He might have trained with the reserves, or even appeared in a friendly, but there is nothing to show that he played in Serie A or the Paulista championship. As it stands, this article has different sources than the one in 2007, but they go no further in demonstrating compliance with NFOOTBALL or more importantly the GNG. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 17:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Further comment'. Here is a more recent example of an American soccer player from the USL lower divisions that signed with a Brazilian professional soccer club, yet never made an appearance in anything but a reserve match. It's not so difficult to believe that Older had a similar experience. Jogurney (talk) 18:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

KEEP User:GiantSnowman There is no doubt that the subject did play in several fully professional leagues Proof here:

REPORTED IN NEWSPAPERS AND FULLY PRO LEAGUE SITES:

http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23496 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529 (Offical fully professional soccer league) http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html (respected print and online newspaper) http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol (highly regarded #1 soccer news site from Brazil and ranked highly on Alexa) http://web.archive.org/web/20020209014728/http://www.tricolornet.com.br/noticias/arquivo1999/990717.htm (Official team blog for Sao Paulo FC says he played along side Wilson in BRAZIL and for 3 fully pro Brazilian Teams)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I was just wondering if some of the users voting for the deletion of this page are equally active and/or critical about other football pages/articles/players on Misplaced Pages as well? Just a quick search on the history of those users and I found "NO!". I have watched a lot of football and I keep on searching players on Misplaced Pages, never did I find such a heated discussion! To me, it's apparent that some of the users on this page are working on a hidden agenda, especially when you suddenly appear out of nowhere and tag a page for deletion. Usmanwardag (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Ha, you clearly are not a member of WP:FOOTBALL then, as I am - if you were, you would see a high turnover of non-notable articles getting deleted (not that that has any impact whatsoever on this discussion). What is stranger to me is editors coming out of nowhere to try and keep the article! GiantSnowman 12:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's wikis for you - everyone gets to play. In any case the issue is whether or not Older meets the notability criteria of having played in a professional league, not who wants the article kept/deleted/tattooed on Alyson Hannigan's delectable buttocks. Really, it's simple. Has he played in a professional league? If so he's notable; if not he isn't. It looks like he has, so what's the argument about?--FergusM1970 12:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Nope, WP:NFOOTBALL is actually subservient to WP:GNG; passing the former gives you assumed notability that you pass the latter, as opposed to actual notability. There is also plenty of consensus that barely passing NFOOTBALL but clearly failing GNG does not make you notable, see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Oscar Otazu, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vyacheslav Seletskiy, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aleksandr Salimov, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Andrei Semenchuk, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Artyom Dubovsky, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cosmos Munegabe, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marios Antoniades, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Scott Sinclair (footballer born 1991) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fredrik Hesselberg-Meyer (2nd nomination). GiantSnowman 12:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:GNG is satisfied, there are 10 sources. There are 2 sources saying he played in the top leagues in Brazil, there are 3 links from the official USL Pro web site, there are 2 sources outlining that he played professionally in Brazil and Europe. There are 2,834 american soccer player articles on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:American_soccer_players A quick glance at them show that :::MOST::: lack the same level of references as my article. And many USL Pro players are listed, some using the same kind of game day stats that I have used and some are blatant fakes with MLS links that go to dead links. Here are a few from my subject's area:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Vardan_Adzemian
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Hagop_Avesyan
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Jaime_Ambriz
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Diego_Barrera
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Ivan_Becerra
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Hagop_Chirishian
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Mark_Draycott
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Manny_Guzman
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Rodrigo_L%C3%B3pez_%28soccer%29
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Alfonso_Motagalvan
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Anton_Peterlin_%28soccer%29
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Dylan_Riley
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Jamie_Scope
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Marcus_Watson
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Brent_Whitfield

I could literally go on ALL DAY listing players with 1) less reliable references 2) less proveable playing experience 3) less wp:gng i.e. less coverage in the newspapers. This is mute point. You guys are trying every avenue to delete my article and its becoming obvious.

If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.

• "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.
• "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
• "Sources", for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected. Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.
• "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent.
• "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Misplaced Pages is not, perhaps the most likely violation being Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I am not a member of WP:FOOTBALL, and as I said, I am just an ordinary reader who has a lot of interest in football. I search for a lot of other articles (mostly sports related) on Misplaced Pages, and have never found such debates going on there. I've also seen a number of pages where there are minor issues but that's not the way things work. The general rule is: if you find an issue, correct it. If you can't, then wait for some other volunteer. This page might not be up to the Misplaced Pages's standard but is certainly notable! Usmanwardag (talk) 12:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC) 12:54, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

How is it "certainly notable"? Has it received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"? GiantSnowman 12:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I could go on listing a number of sources here but here's one for your review. http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol Jordan Older is the main subject of this article and so, this is not just a passing reference. Furthermore, http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/ is a reliable source that is independent of the subject. You can see here a number of wikipedia entries that link to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?search=futebolinterior.com.br&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 I sincerely hope you will objectively look at this discussion and change your vote to KEEP. Usmanwardag (talk) 18:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

That article never mentions that Older played in a competitive match for any of those clubs. As I noted above, it is quite possible that he signed for the clubs but only trained and played in the reserves. If he had played in competitive matches, it's much more likely that reliable online Brazilian soccer sources like Globo Esporte or UOL would have some mention of him. Jogurney (talk) 18:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435 Please see the match information. Older played for seven minutes in a game of a fully professional league. http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529 Older played for 26 minutes in a game of a fully professional league. Do I need anything else to prove that he has played in a competitive match for those clubs? Please see cite #6 as well, in which Older was a part of a poll, which ranked the players on the basis of popularity. It was a pole of really competitive players (legends you can say), and only those would have got in who were actually playing the games (and were not just only reserves). Usmanwardag (talk) 19:12, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Can I dare say that you're trying to confuse things here? Older has clearly played more than once in the matches of a fully professional league. Can you please go to the bottom of the thread and see my clarification? Usmanwardag (talk) 23:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• NOTE this page was tampered with and changed today or yesterday and changes so that my links above don't go directly to the USL Pro Leagues anymore, but the USL Pro Leagues and the Brazil leagues, in which the subject is proven to have played, are still listed as fully professional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Got a diff (link to the specific edit) for that? I don't see any evidence of ELs or references changed in the last 24 hours. —C.Fred (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how to do the "diff" to get the past versions of pages. I've only been on this site for a couple days. But here is what happened:

The page that was tampered/changed Wikipage is the one that lists the fully professional leagues and was center point to my notability claim for my subject. What happened was the format changed. It's still there, same leagues, but they deleted the "defunct league category" as far as I can tell and that was one of my main links and now it doesn't work so its a blow to my articles defense and a plus to the deleters because it makes me look crazy when I say click here to see the list of the leagues and now it just goes to the top of the page. You can see in this page how many times I linked to the #Defunct_Leagues has and to http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues this link used to have a defunct leagues section that I based most of my defense upon and, what do you know, its gone today. In short this link used to work http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues#Defunct_Leagues and now it doesnt. Thanks again for your time and energy.Fussballspieler11 (talk) 07:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

My first reference is from a major news portal that has MOST COMPREHENSIVE LIVE SOCCER NEWS AND SCORES IN THE COUNTRY OF BRAZIL

I also want to let everyone know about the authority of my first reference. The news agency is called FUTEBOL INTERIOR. Most of you aren't familiar with Brazilian culture or sporting/soccer news so you will not know this source. But it is used often on Misplaced Pages as a source/reference. The translation is not "Indoor Soccer" like the machine translator at Google first says. It means "Inside Football" and it is a double entendre because it started out, over 10 years ago, only covering the area of the interior/inner parts of the Sao Paulo state of Brazil. Now it has global coverage, live chats, live scores, live game transmissions, columns, blogs, features, many expert soccer journalists from all parts of Brazil and the world. It's one of the best, if not the best place to get news about every major soccer team and league in Brazil.

Here is more about it from it's ABOUT page translated into English: (be sure to read the last line)

About Us

The Portal Inside Soccer is the most comprehensive of its kind, giving wide coverage to professional clubs from all over Brazil, as well as the world.

With over 10 years of existence, many new features are visible, such as hot sites and tools, providing information to the visitors so easier and attractive.

Great events of football, Brazil and the world, are also featured in most of the country Portal Football.

Between competitions disclosed, many exclusively, are: State (all), the Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A, B, C and D; Cup Brazil, South American Cup, Libertadores Cup, as well as major European Championships.

Another tool is the consolidated Score Live, the most comprehensive in the country, presenting results online (in real time) of all State (exclusive) and all major competitions involving clubs and the Brazilian national team. There are more than 18 million hits per month.

This service is also available on Mobile Systems and WAP (mobile), leading information and entertainment will at any time and where the Internet is.

With high quality journalistic content, Soccer Inside achieved credibility and opened new spaces for the news. And today, provides information for major newspapers and sports agencies in the country, besides being a source of research bodies throughout Brazil.

Here is a recent feature article that appeared for almost a week on their front page: http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol Fussballspieler11 (talk) 18:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Jogurney

• 1) are you being misleading by saying a "few" minutes? if you read the ussoccerstats.us you'll see its not just a few
• 2) there are plenty of reliable, 3rd party news references listing the Brazil A, and Paulista A teams, stating he played there, I suggest you read them, they are even FEATURES talking only about the subject and thus also satisfying the WP:GNG rules
• 3) there is other wide coverage of the subject in other well respected and reliable news and magazine publications, they are listed too, I suggest you read them too
• 4) it appears you are focusing on diminishing my subject's career and his reputation by minimizing his notability by using words like few and amateur, when your statements are completely the opposite of exaggeration
• 5) you are the main man in the deletion campaign, having been trying for 6 years to get his article deleted and you use the same wording as Lionmans Account "few" and "amateur" when these have already been struck out by a Misplaced Pages admin C.fred.

Myself and a few other honest Misplaced Pages editors/authors are already suspicious as to why you are spending 6 years targeting this subject when thousands of less notable player articles exist.(I listed just a few but don't want to be on here all day copy/pasting lesser american soccer players. Just go look in the american soccer player listing here on Misplaced Pages. Why do you deny the rules of Misplaced Pages stating that a player is notable if having appeared in a fully professional league? and on and on and on... and you're saying the same thing as 6 years ago when you cleary muffed your first critique appearing to having not even read the new references. Your actions are beyond my belief, honestly. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I just want to make a brief summary of things as I see them now. I was very upset when I spent an hour copy and pasting 200 references proving logically, in my personal opinion, the fame and notability of my subject only to have them deleted within a few minutes of posting them by a new admin who suddenly came into the discussion when we already had one admin, do we really need two admins and 20 or so editors? But, yes, that upset me. Mostly because I spent a long time researching the information and because the admin is also one of the "deleters" of my article so he's got his opinion and he's deleting evidence against it and... he also deleted another important and very short comment I made. I still don't think this is ok, but I apologize if in my astonishment of having an hour of my life trashed I may have appeared angry. Sincere apology and I hope we can all be friends. I respect everyone's right to delete and disagree with me. It's a free world. I think I have a way that we can all be happy about this and I will delete my article myself if the main detractors/deleters can come to an objective list of what is required for wp:gng and association football notability. Because I honestly am baffled how anyone can say my subject is not notable. Fans are still posting about him a decade after he retired on major soccer forums that I read around the world (dont read this as I'm saying its a viable proof of anything, its just a supporting fact to his fame and notability.)

So can the deleters make a list of what exact criteria need to be met to satisfy wp:gng and football notability and be specific? This will also be a learning opportunity for me. Like I said I will delete my article myself if I can see my own failure to understand something. This will save 20+ people from another 6 years of pointless debate maybe.

Here is what I have read in the form of a probably check list to satisfy notability: :::(✔ means it's proved in my opinion):::

✔ 1) played in a fully professional league or a national cup (reference #7 proves this according to GiantSnowman, even barely) and subject's Facebook shows another full pro USL team 1 year before the start of the MLS and that he played in the Swiss Cup in 1993 which is a national level event, I read that national cups also warrant notability.

✔ 2) GNG Checklist:

✔* 1. If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list.

I see 2 recent newspaper articles that have high reputations and are tamper proof and reliable. 2 recent newspaper articles about a guy who retired over 10 years ago is notable. I also see 200 fan forum discussions about him or including him on a popular forum, and given that the subjet is in his 40's and soccer players retire at around 30, this is notable. Even if many or most are poking fun at him, its still notable. I also see on his Facebook more news paper clippings and front pages sports spreads that are only about the subject, not just mentioning him, and that he was in TV commercials from Intel, Pioneer/Phillps, Reebok, and I see blogs on 1st division A professional soccer teams in other countries talking about him along side super famous players. One of the blogs was an interview with an ex Manchester United player who was the coach of team in Sweden. The Manchester United player said that the subject "played in the top league in brazil" or similar to that. I see also that the subject is in pictures with Pele and David Beckham recently as well as with Academy Award winning celebrities at his film festival. You can see videos of him with these stars too. I'm not saying that all or any of this is a valid "reference", I'm saying that it shows "significant" coverage, given that almost no Americans played professional soccer in the 1990's and USA had no MAJOR professional league and almost no sports coverage, this is huge coverage, not just significant. It's certainly more coverage than the list of example Misplaced Pages articles on other soccer players in his area (see my list above for the list.) His coverage and playing level was a level higher than each of the players in this list, yet their articles remain and my subject is up for deletion and suffers being called and amateur who played a few minutes with an amateur team by the deleters. So we have here: several reptutable, reliable news sources, tv commercials, live radio interviews, hundreds of forum posts even decades after he retired poking fun at him, also many wanting to know who is Jordan Older and how did he play in Brazil when no other american could do it, he mingles with celebrities, he has his own film festival, his family is full of famous celebs, not to mention he's now an agent who is able to place local american kids in major pro teams in Germany because of his extensive professional playing career in Europe. Keep in mind there are several hall of fame americans who tried to make a team in Brazil and failed. My subject played for 3. This is more than enough to warrant notability so I give it a check.

✔* 2. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.

Futebol Interior(FI) featured the subject on the front page of its popular Brazilian sports site and wrote a long article about the subject. FI is used in hundreds of other references in Misplaced Pages so it should be ok here too. No original research is needed (like in the forum posts which arent valid references) to "extract" the information about the subject because the entire article is about him and it was on the front page for a number of days just a few months ago when I found it. This is reference #1. PV News story is half quotes from the subject because its about his success as an agent. It's easy to extract the content about the subject from this reference. This is reference #3. I also have a radio interview of the subject on a popular radio station where he is interviewed about his playing days. Check

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Jaime_Ambriz -> this player's article lacks complete proof of him playing in Switzerland and he only played 4 games as well in the USL1 fully professional league and 9 games in the amateur PDL USL league (the other players on my list are just a few out of thousands with similarly less notability than my subject)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Vardan_Adzemian
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Hagop_Avesyan
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Jaime_Ambriz
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Diego_Barrera
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Ivan_Becerra
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Hagop_Chirishian
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Mark_Draycott
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Manny_Guzman
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Rodrigo_L%C3%B3pez_%28soccer%29
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Alfonso_Motagalvan
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Anton_Peterlin_%28soccer%29
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Dylan_Riley
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Jamie_Scope
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Marcus_Watson
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Brent_Whitfield

Anyway I have 2 soccer sources that require little research to read about him and many recent film festival references about him that are easy to extract the content so I say this is satisfied. Check.

✔* 3. "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.

My main sources are professional news agencies and all edited. Even the Sao Paulo FC blog was written by one of Brazil's top journalists with high journalistic integrity. Check.

✔* 4. "Sources", for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally expected. Sources are not required to be available online, and they are not required to be in English. Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability.

There are plenty of these on his Facebook and in my references. Check.

✔ * 5. "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject or its creator. For example, self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, the subject's website, autobiographies, and press releases are not considered independent.

My subject is not affiliated with any of the news sources and only to the teams and blogs because he was on the team or considered for the team. None of it is paid advertising, none is self published except for the film festival web site profile which he is the director of the Ventura Film Festival, but that is just to show he is the director of the Ventura Film Festival, nothing else, and none are press releases. Check

✔ * 6. "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Misplaced Pages is not, perhaps the most likely violation being Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

I guess this is where its up to the admins and editors to decide. My vote is obvious since I am a huge fan of early American soccer players. They were paving the path for the players of today when no one was looking. My article is not just an indiscriminate collection of information and is very popular by the number of editors and admins discussing it. This is really up to the admins I think? I say - Check.

✔ * 7. A topic for which this criterion is deemed to have been met by consensus, is usually worthy of notice, and satisfies one of the criteria for a stand-alone article in the encyclopedia. Verifiable facts and content not supported by multiple independent sources may be appropriate for inclusion within another article.

I believe there are maybe the same amout of KEEPS and DELETES, perhaps DELETES are winning now, I haven't counted. But there are several KEEPS and the original approver of the article voted to KEEP. Again I think its up to the admins here. I say - Check.

(above is copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Notability#General_notability_guideline)

So there is my :::✔check::: list for Association Football notability and WP:GNG notability. It all basically comes down to the hard facts listed in ref#1#3#4#5#7 and the opinion of the editors and mostly the admins.

GiantSnowman already agreed that Association Football notability is met (barely) and like I said if the deleters can come up with some specific reasons why WP:GNG is not met for a popular soccer retired soccer player who runs a popular film festival (the largest film festival in Ventura County, which is one of the wealthiest counties in the entire country, I did my research), and if the specific reasons make sense logically to me I will delete my own article (if that's possible.) I think this is fair. One the same note, if there are no specific reasons why conditions 1 through 5 (since 6 & 7 are up to the whim of the admins) aren't met then I think a gentleman would agree to step down and keep the article. I'm over my anger at my comments being deleted and don't want to spend hours each day saying the same thing for 4 more days and don't want around 20 other interested editors to waste more time so this sounds like a good solution to me? I respect everyone's right to disagree and even to delete my article or to ban/delete my account. I just hope everyone uses logic and is honest since God is watching. I hope everyone is having a great night/day and let me know your specific reasons why a nothing amateur soccer player and nobody film festival owner is not notable, guys and gals... Fussballspieler11 (talk) 07:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)— Fussballspieler11 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please note that the discussion here is not a ballot, and that the number of "votes" for delete or keep is completely irrelevant. Completely. Let's think about that for a minute.... The number of times you see "Delete" or "Keep" has no bearing on anything happening here. None. This process is not a collection of votes, it is one of argument based on policy. This is a fundamental aspect of the AfD process that doesn't seem to be making it across. My stating it again here seems likely to fall on deaf ears, but hey, I'm an optimist! Wait, no, that's totally a lie... Wait, what do I mean again? Oh yeah. We aren't voting here. <Shouted into the wind> Also: my eyes hurt. KDS4444 15:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like your plea is going to have no effect. Lots of people making delete comments without doing the courtesy to actually base them on logic. Someone tell them that this is a discussion, not a poll! Someone?? Usmanwardag (talk) 15:52, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Scanning through, most of the delete !votes cite policy or guidelines (WP:GNG, WP:NFOOTBALL, WP:RS, etc.); I don't see anything atypical with them. Most of the keep !votes also focus on the merits of the article, although there have been one or two detours into the land of WP:OTHERSTUFF, which is to be avoided in deletion discussions. —C.Fred (talk) 16:17, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

(I'm also placing an abritrary section break below this branch of the discussion as a courtesy to new commenters. The AfD is pushing 100k, so that's a lot of scrolling to preview an edit.) —C.Fred (talk) 16:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

C.Fred actually the deleters and maybe even an admin first started to list "the other stuff" WP:OTHERSTUFF by saying that there are plenty of "others" deleted all the time. So why should a logical person not be able to say THE SAME reason in response; well in that case there are literally "thousands" of "other stuff" American soccer articles with less notability kept all the time, most 90% American players with Misplaced Pages articles can't compare to my subject's experience and news media coverage. Further, the WP:OTHERSTUFF says that, while they aren't enough on it's own, the other stuff comparison CAN BE USEFUL: (and it was started by the deleters so its only fair that both sides can use the same kind of comparison)

"The nature of Misplaced Pages means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist; because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article (except for a salting, which is only performed in dire cases). While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this."

WP:OTHERSTUFF

Also the deleters have already agreed that the subect meets notability by WP:NFOOTBALL the Admin: GiantSnowman has already gone on record agreeing to this. Some of the deleters have heavily criticized the validity of my editor reviewed references from 3rd party and well know newspapers but at the same time pulling up non-editor reviewed private/commercial web sites (that they may or may not own or run themselves) and telling everyone that we should trust these sources and if something "they want" isn't found in "their non-editor reviewed" blog that therefore they have found some smoking gun. So what you have here is a lot of circular logic and hypocrisy and simply admins deleting evidence when it doesn't suit their personal opinion. It doesn't sound terribly honest or fair. And to be the bigger man, and to avoid having to repeat the same obvious points day in and day out to people who say YOU can't do this, YOU can't use this kind of source, but I CAN, I've offered to delete my own article if the detractors will outline some specific reasons why WP:GNG is not satisfied (they already agreed that WP:NFOOTBALL is satisfied <--- I want to emphasize this). YOU can't talk about other stuff, but I CAN TALK ABOUT OTHER STUFF. Really bizarre thinking and seems dishonest to me. Again I just realized last night after logging off that their WP:RS is far less worthy and reliable and is not editor reviewed newspaper so it FAILS the WP:GNG rules clearly, but the deleters are using it as one of their main reasons for lack of football notability... are you following the problem here? It's circular logic combined with hypocrisy which means they are proving themsevles wrong by their own irrational reasoning. I'm going to paste this at the bottom so that it doesn't get lost up here in the mess of things and also to your talk page, just to be sure you get it C.Fred. Since you seem to be the only objective one here. Again I think its more than fair to take me up on my offer to have me delete my own page if the deleting side can list the specific things why my article's subject is not WP:GNG. Waiting on this.... Fussballspieler11 (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear UltraExactZZ, thanks for joining the discussion:

YOU SAID: Ref 1 - There's no author mentioned, and the article has the feel of a press release. The site does not appear to have the sort of editorial control or responsibility that is typical of reliable sources. I'm not impressed.

Ref #1 source (Futebol Interior) is used over 500 times already in Misplaced Pages, Alexa ranks it as authoritative top 900 sites in all of Brazil and top 19,000 in the world, I have been reading it for around 10 years, it's used by others to do research as well. Your statements simply don't match the WP:GNG requirements, but trying to quote invalid sources as your primary reason/argument. And the WP:NFOOTBALL notability has already been agreed to by football expert and Misplaced Pages admin GiantSnowman.

Please stick to using only editor reviewed publications like my main news sources in ref 1 and 3. They prove notability without a shadow of doubt, along with #7 and the others tell the true story. Simply looking someone up in a non valid, non-editorial reviewed private/commercial or hobby web site means nothing and fails the same rules you are trying to prove that my sources fail. You are contradicting yourself here. And people are still misrepresenting the facts still denying the number of fully professional games in the United states USL Pro league my subject played when its proven time and time again that he played 4 in the USL Pro league in 2003. He likely did this just for fun because he was around 35 at the time, but its been proven time and time again in this discussion and people are still trying to minimize my subject's reputation by ignoring this. Proof:

• http://soccerstats.us/bios/jordan-older/
• http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23435
• http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23496
• http://www.uslsoccer.com/scripts/runisa.dll?M2:gp::72011+Elements/Display+E+47107+Stats/+23529
• http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html

Misplaced Pages admin: GiantSnowman already agreed he meets WP:NFOOTBALL but says he lacks WP:GNG but fails to be specific and uses his own logic to weaken his argument to delete by quoting non-editorial reviewed publications and personal blog sites as his (and the other deleters) main proof. Thanks again guys. I'm new here and learing the rules of WP:GNG very well by now and they state you can't use non-editoria reviewed publications to establish notability like the deleters are attempting. Please stick to the Misplaced Pages rules. Even admins and editors have to follow the rules.Fussballspieler11 (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I questioned reference 1 - the Futebol Interior source. Who wrote the article? Who generally writes their articles? Who is on their editorial staff? I'm not familiar with the site and don't find their alexa ranking to be particularly relevant. All I see is that it seems to be a news article but includes unrelated biographical information at the end, in much the same way that the typical press release does. That is what drew the comparison. And ref 3 is an article about someone else. It does mention the subject - and even quotes him - but it's not about him, it's about this other kid who signed with a team in Germany. It confirms that Mr. Older exists, which is nice, and that he is involved in the sports management industry, but it doesn't confer notability. It is not significant coverage, because it doesn't cover Mr. Older. As for the games played in 2003 - I acknowledged that he played four games in 2003. Is that sufficient? I dunno, but I also left the question open. I'd sure love to see similar sources documenting games played for clubs in Brazil. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

And, while I have a lot of respect for GiantSnowman, he's not the boss of me. It is possible that we disagree on this point, and on the fate of this article (though I see him recommending Delete, above). Nor does it matter that he is an admin - that doesn't make his opinion more worthy. I've known loads of admins, most of them are idiots. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Ultraexactzz:, I'm not sure whether to be offended or not :P GiantSnowman 19:49, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As one admin to another, my snark may have gotten the best of me. ^_^ UltraExactZZ ~ Did 19:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

------> @ User_talk:Ultraexactzz

You're contradicting yourself by:

• 1) trying to label an editor reviewed news reference as invalid while using non-editor reviewed sources to claim reason to delete, Spock from Star Treck would easily find the flaw in your logic.

• 2) trying to say because youve never heard of ref#1 it's, therefore it must be invalid, so what? you don't need to know it, its editor reviewed and already used over 500 times as valid referenes in Misplaced Pages

• 3) saying there are no editors on that site just shows you didn't even read it, they are listed all over it, you are hence saying the source is invalid but you didnt even read it

• 4) saying As for the games played in 2003 - I acknowledged that he played four games in 2003. Is that sufficient? I dunno, but I also left the question open. GiantSnowman already said he's satisfied WP:NFOOTBALL

• 5) asking for other sources supporting that he played in Brazil, there are other at least 3 other sources listed in the references of this, and at least one of them is a valid editor reviewed newspaper, and there are a ton of pictures of him doing his thing and other news articles from the time before the Internet on his Facebook page (I did my research).

• 6) basically your whole reasoning is flawed and illogical and full of contradictions, but I respect your right to delete. I even said I would delete if you anyone give specific reason why WP:GNG isnt met. I'm still waiting a day later. People just keep saying I dont know what Futebol Interior is so I don't accept that source so its reall just your opinion and not based on the WP:GNG rules themselves. Thanks for your time. You do appear to be at least pretending to be unbiased by calling admins idiots.Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Just want to add a little note here. Futebol Interior does have the editorial staff of its own. We're just having some problems understanding that because it's not an English website. Anyway, please check out this link of the blog of Futebol Interior http://blogdoari.futebolinterior.com.br/, you can find here that they have got experienced authors to write for them. And regarding the Older's article, it is not a press release but is rather written by Indoor Football agency (you can find the credits at the end of the article). I hope I made the things clear here. Usmanwardag (talk) 20:17, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@everyone

I'm not trying to be rude here. But maybe if you read what's been said again by GiantSnowman, you'll see some of the errors in your reasoning and your attempted use of invalid sources according to Misplaced Pages and circular logic (banning me from using editor reviewed news source while using other non-editor reviewed private blogs yourself, banning me from talking about other stuff while talking about other stuff frequently yourselves)

GiantSnowman's WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments

• Ha, you clearly are not a member of WP:FOOTBALL then, as I am - if you were, you would see a high turnover of non-notable articles getting deleted (not that that has any impact whatsoever on this discussion). What is stranger to me is editors coming out of nowhere to try and keep the article! GiantSnowman 12:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• Nope, WP:NFOOTBALL is actually subservient to WP:GNG; passing the former gives you assumed notability that you pass the latter, as opposed to actual notability. There is also plenty of consensus that barely passing NFOOTBALL but clearly failing GNG does not make you notable, see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Oscar Otazu, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vyacheslav Seletskiy, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aleksandr Salimov, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Andrei Semenchuk, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Artyom Dubovsky, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Cosmos Munegabe, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marios Antoniades, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Scott Sinclair (footballer born 1991) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fredrik Hesselberg-Meyer (2nd nomination). GiantSnowman 12:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

GitantSnowman's use of non-editorial reviewed private blog/web sites for main his main arguments to refute my subjects notability while at the same time many try to say that I can't official league match rosters and statistics and editor reviewed AND WELL RESPECTED news publications tha already appear over 500 times as valid references on Misplaced Pages

• 'Comment' Claims like mr X played in the Brazilian Serie A can easily be verified/falsified using a database like this one . As you can see it goes back a very long time before there was such a thing as internet. Cattivi (talk) 21:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

• No results. GiantSnowman 21:34, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

GiantSnowman deleting two of my comments that I feel are valid to supporting, if not proving, WP:GNG

• @Fussballspieler11:, yes, I removed this wall of text (including copyrighted information!) as it was disruptive. Most of your posts here have been similar (though not quite as extreme) and if you don't start contributing calmly, concisely, and without displaying OWNership issues then I will ask an uninvolved admin to intervene here. GiantSnowman 22:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

NOTE: ----------> There already is another uninvolved admin here, you're the 2nd admin here GiantSnowman, btw

GiantSnowman admits subjects passes WP:NFOOTBALL

• "There is also plenty of consensus that barely passing NFOOTBALL" - User: GiantSnowman

GiantSnowman saying that its strange for editors to be supporting KEEP of my article but the deleters are normal? Is that valid logic? Is that fair? Is that unbiased?

• What is stranger to me is editors coming out of nowhere to try and keep the article! - GiantSnowman

Is that valid logic? Is that fair? Is that unbiased?

I think GiantSnowman and the editor who came back after 6 years and 10 new references is strange. And how the article was labeled a hoax within minutes of it being created by me means someone was watching it 24/7 no other way to so quickly define a hoax (hoax was denied by C.Fred) Strange is how multiple deleters use the same language to minimize the repuation of my subject by calling him "amateur" and only played a "few minutes" when all the teams listed on his resume are fully professional. Strange is how GiantSnowman argues not passing WP:GNG but then censors and deletes my comments hinting at proof that he is very famous. Strange is the anonymous KEEP vote that came in on this talk page and then GiantSnowman later makes claims of "stranger ... is editors coming out of nowhere" - GiantSnowman

Strange is how someone who is not notable can have such attention to his Misplaced Pages page that over 20 editors and 2 admins have spent 3 days now and thousands of lines of text trying to prove its notability. (self contradicting reality again.)

Once again, I've already called foul play because of:

1) its strange that my article was immediate vandalized with a fake hoax delettion attempt minutes after I wrote it, meaning that someone was following it with a search script or hitting refresh every 60 seconds or so 24/7 7 days a week, its not possible to decide if its a hoax with 10 new references and a totally new article (and to find the article) that quickly 2) its strange that the article was deleted 6 years ago at the same time as a business conflict the subject had about a hostile take over of his film festival 3) its strange that the fact that the same deleter from 6 years ago badly muffed his critique of the new article just giving a blanket critisicm and clearly not really reading the new references 4) its strange that the fact that some deleters claimed that they read the old article and its references when the old article is not available on Misplaced Pages anymore 5) its strange that i was trying to write the article without a username and the same user kept denying it and then deleted his own talk page to hide my communications with him and then my subjects original article was zapped clean from wikipedia forever, so i created a username for the first time resulting in the article being approved and a KEEP vote from the original approver 6) its strange that editors went as far to have to have their comments striked out by C.Fred, they risked their reputations by bordering on poking fun and minimizing my subjects career 7) its strange several deleters use the same words "a few minutes" and "amateur", I'm not saying it was the same user with two accounts or more but it seems like there is a team working here and I have read about the existance of Wiki-gangs (look it up yourself if you dont know what that is) now dont put words in my mouth, i'm not saying this is true, just saying its strange to me 8) its strange to me that GiantSnowman is now calling for a "2nd admin" (perhaps his friend) when he is the "2nd admin" we already had C.Fred (not acusing anyone of doing this, but its strange)

Anyway these things seem suspicious to me and I will gladly delete my own article if you can show me how the scores of editor reviewed news publications (already used over 500 times on Misplaced Pages), starring in national and International TV commericals for Intel Pentium, Snickers, Pioneer/Phillips, Reebok, fan votes to the World Cup roster, owning his own international film festival, giving awards to Academy Award winners, personal friends with Pele and David Beckham, able to place local American kids on major German professional soccer teams as an agent, having played in 3 continents and around 7 different countries, and a huge delete discussion on Misplaced Pages is not notable. As a fan of early American soccer players it really just baffles my mind the opposition here.

Thanks again and I respect your right to delete my article and expect you to give me the same rights you have. Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@ everyone

Note: I just re-read WP:GNG it doesnt say that WP:NFOOTBALL is subservient to WP:GNG like GiantSnowman claimed. This is clearly his own opinion and not a fact.

WP:GNG clearly states and I quote:

"A topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets the general notability guideline below, and is not excluded under the What Misplaced Pages is not policy.

A topic is also presumed notable if it meets the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right. "

The "also presumed notable" means that someone can be notable by a different set of rules, it doesn't say you have to follow the WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. It says someone can be notable just by the Notability

Subject-specific guidelines which everyone agrees passes by means of WP:NFOOTBALL.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 20:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Fussballspieler11, I respectfully ask you to actually read WP:NFOOTBALL (y'know, the guideline you have been banging on about for the past 2 days?), because it quite clearly says "Association football (soccer) figures are presumed notable players are not notable unless they satisfy one of the statements above, or if they can be shown to meet the wider requirements of WP:GNG". I have already provided links to maybe a dozen AFDs that show community consensus which states GNG is more important than NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 20:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I read it. It clearly says you are wrong here. Please read the words "players are not notable unless they satisfy one of the statements above, or"

1st the "or" means that its one OR the other, not both are need - either WP:GNG "or" WP:NFOOTBALL are you trying to mislead me or you just can't graps the concept and meaning of the word "or"? I'm seriously concerned at your lack of ability to understand 8th grade level logic.

2nd you're, again, using the WP:SOMEOTHERSTUFF argument here, it's not valid... just because you made a mistake on dozens of other Afd doesn't mean I'm going to sit around while you 1) delete multiple comments I've made 2) ignore truths about the meaning of Misplaced Pages rules!

Let me say it again... ————→ OR ←——— means one or the other, its exclusive, hence:

• 1) soccer players who haven't appeared in a full professional leauge can be considered notable if(or) they have enough press coverage

• 2) soccer players who have no features written about them they can be considered notable if they have played in a full professional league

• 3) none of this should matter because my subject satisfies both NGN and NFOOTBALL since he's a really relatively famous guy in several countries and has multiple features JUST ABOUT HIM playing professional soccer, some are too old to appear in Internet searches and in your hobby blogs that you claim are proof worthy.

This is amazing how a Misplaced Pages amin can't understand the meaning of the word "or". Mind boggling and please do not let your lack of reading comprehension affect me adversely and the reputation of my subject. You're CLEARLY wrong here and I have already made one complaint and this is worth of another. Although I respect your right to disagree, I can't see how you are right here. I am not angry but I feel strongly that you are doing me and my subject a dis-service as well as misleading other editors and wheover else might read this.Fussballspieler11 (talk) 21:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@ GiantSnowman

Here's another example. The WP:GNG and NFOOTBALL says you can satisfy the list OR you can have played in a full professional league. This is like telling a child at dinner that you must eat your vetatables or your fruits before you can have your desert. So the child, in order to get desert, must eat one OR the other (or both.) So the child can do one of 3 things to get desert:

• 1) eat the fruits (NFOOTBALL)
• 2) eat the vegetables (GNG)
• 3) eat both fruits and vegetables (GNG and NFOOTBALL)

I hope this makes it crystal clear.

Fussballspieler11 (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

No, what's amazing is that someone who has been here for only 3 days truly believes they know more than a number of experienced, truested editors (myself included!). I'm not sure if you're stubborn or deluded but you need to start listening, something you have not done once in your brief time here. You've been told to stop with snide comments about other editors - you continue. You've been told you don't OWN the article - you continue to claim it as your own. You've been told not to post walls of texts - you continue. Your edits are becoming increasingly annoying and many editors are fast losing patience with you. Stop patronising me and others, because I am so very close to losing it with you, which won't be good for either of us. GiantSnowman 21:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

So what can I do now about a certain someone without getting banned? I feel a certain someone misrepresented the Misplaced Pages rules more than once on purpose in order to mislead me and other voting editors. I call foul play. Had I not read them myself I wouldn't have realized this because I assumed a certain someone was correct in a certain someone's interpretation of them. I can read. So now what? I don't want to break and rules but a certain someone threatened to ban me if I talk bout a certain someone? I would like to file another complaint about a certain someone but I fear a certain someone will ban me. I fear writing this asking for a certain someone to let me know what I am allowed to do will get me banned at this point. I guess if a certain someone did that it would just be a certain someone's way of winning and deleteing my article and would prove my point about a certain someone even more.Fussballspieler11 (talk) 22:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

But he has a super cute "Gotcha!" profile picture on facebook! Surely that counts! (I will shuddup now... probably). KDS4444 01:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Must admit, that made me laugh. Stalwart111 02:21, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Being a fan of Jordan Older (& American football), I take serious offence on your jokes about him. Usmanwardag (talk) 05:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter - he removed said photo of himself so nobody will be able to share our humour anyway. Stalwart111 06:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

We don't know if you are operating a fake facebook account, or UserKDS4444, or someone else (it's not an accusation!) but you have got to be respectful, because 1- This is supposed to be a civilized discussion and so anybody should not make fun of and/or ridicule anybody else, and 2- I believe he deserves respect being a football player. Making these jokes or ridiculing him won't help your cause. Usmanwardag (talk) 06:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? A facebook page exists for an obscure, non-notable football player filled with childhood photos and photos of his family members and having existed for years it is altered within seconds of being mentioned here and your suggestion is that one of us has spent years and years cultivating a fake facebook page for a guy we've never heard of just so we can do something strange with it during a deletion discussion for an article that should never have been created? One that was militantly defended by a guy with an obvious conflict of interest who doesn't understand Misplaced Pages policy right up until the point he got blocked? That has to be about the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I have ever heard. Go and take a big deep breath and find something else to edit for a while. We're ridiculing this ridiculous campaign because it is ridiculous. And you just took things to new heights of ridiculousness. Stalwart111 07:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, oh, and I found the missing newspaper articles from newspapers printed "before the time of the Internet" and therefore not available to the public! They can be found on his Facebook page right here. Let me see... Looks like four of them are from the Ventura County Star-Free Press, which is a ... very... local newspaper. One of them is from the L.A. Times! It doesn't mention Older by name, I know, but he is apparently in the picture that goes with the article. I am pretty sure that's him. On the far right. Okay, moving on, so, two of the remaining "articles" are scanned copies of his 1990 high school soccer all-star games flyer-thingy. He is mentioned in one of these two articles as playing for a team there, so those are good. And the last one— wait for it— is the SWISS article! Published in Switzerland and written in SWISS! (I know, because I speak Swiss! But not German or Norweigan or Sweedish). According to the caption it says something about the Swiss Cup. I can't read any of the text because it is too blurry, but I am pretty sure that the words "Jordan Older" are in there in that paragraph somewhere, on the right side. Possibly. I guess my Swiss is a little rusty. Well, if that doesn't prove notability then I don't know what does. Any takers?? (oh, that poor dead horse... I like horses!). KDS4444 02:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Dang it, don't you hate it when you mention something, and you make a link to it, and then minutes later the link is no longer available? Well, that's what happened. No longer available. It was available when I made the link. I swear. Hm. I guess someone with access to Jordan Older's Facebook page made them unavailable. I guess someone with access to his page who is also feverishly checking up on this AfD discussion made them unavailable. I had just found several more good articles from the Ventura County Star I was going to mention, too. But they were never published on the Internet, and now you can't see them anywhere at all, I guess. Shoot. I tried. Stupid horses. KDS4444 03:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

You sound a little crazy, don't you? Are you sure all the pictures you posted are not copyrighted?? I have a little knowledge of languages too and you know what, SWISS is GERMAN. If you can read SWISS, you can read GERMAN too. I found some serious errors in your very first nomination as well where you mistook German for Norwegian! Not sure what to say, but it seems like you're just making up comments. Usmanwardag (talk) 05:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Copyright? Where's the copyright? The guy posted photos to his own Facebook page, KDS linked to that Facebook page (they were there; I saw them too) and within minutes they were taken down by someone. Copyright is irrelevant. Far more likely is that what was there constituted his "scrapbook" with all of his media mentions, none of which allow him to pass WP:GNG here. Realising that such compendium would hurt the already-weak arguments of the keep crowd here, they were removed. AFD regulars have seen things like this a million times before. Old tactics are old. Stalwart111 06:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Ha, that's a very subjective view, I must say. I am seriously unable to figure out how a guy who cannot even distinguish between languages, nominated the page for discussion. Please have a look at delete side of the discussion more objectively and you'll find tons of baseless rumours. Usmanwardag (talk) 06:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional Comment: This is Facebook for you. If I come up with thousand images proving notability of the subject, they won't be reliable, because anyone can make and post these. They can even be photoshopped. So, why did you, in the first instance, just give the link of that pic? That's beyond me! Usmanwardag (talk) 06:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

What are you on about? I didn't link to Facebook, KDS did, and he did so to highlight the fact that the subject has collected press coverage about himself and none of what he had collected allowed him to meet WP:GNG. He also highlighted the fact that the subject was watching this discussion so intently that when his images were mentioned, they were immidiately removed. KDS's ability with multiple languages has exactly zero to do with his nomination of pages for deletion. You're clutching at straws now, mate. High time you dropped the stick (or at least the torch you're carrying for this subject) lest you join your mate in the dressing rooms. Stalwart111 07:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Mate, I wouldn't write walls of text on this but would say this is illogical. Absolutely illogical to base your conclusions on a facebook picture which has no real identity, and which might be fake. Whoever started this is just trying to digress from the main issue and trying to reach immature conclusions. So, please let's stop it and let's talk about what actually matters.

And regarding translation issue, this has got to do with his nomination. Apparently he was interpreting all the text, but didn't have any idea about the languages. On a slightly different note, I wonder why are you so much interested in clearing the things for KDS. Usmanwardag (talk) 09:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

What? Did you read my original comment at all? I said nothing about Facebook and I certainly didn't "base my conclusions" on a joke that was made after my conclusions. And the only thing I'm "clearing" is your misunderstanding of the conversation thus far. You're just talking yourself in circles and you aren't convincing anyone. You remain the only unblocked keep voter here and this is a waste of time. I'm done. Stalwart111 11:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

KDS4444 and Stalwart111 it's against Misplaced Pages guidelines of privacy and safety (to prevent identity theft and stalking) to talk about subject matter that is not related, such as childhood photos on Facebook. This is clearly not related and you are just gossiping (also prohibited by Misplaced Pages guidelines) so I would like to call light to these transgressions, just for the record. This has been a highly irregular bashing of this poor man. Usmanwardag (talk) 17:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm . Seriously. Stalwart111 19:05, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional Comment: KDS4444 linked to a copyrighted and non-soccer picture, Misplaced Pages guidelines clearly state this is against the policy of Misplaced Pages, and then you Stalwart111 said "A facebook page exists for an obscure, non-notable football player filled with childhood photos and photos of his family members" this is clearly against Misplaced Pages guidelines and is also irrelevant to the discussion and not related to his soccer career, there were soccer photos marked as free copyright but KDS4444 linked to the one of them. Clearly bashing and poking fun and invading his privacy. Usmanwardag (talk) 03:59, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm . How is linking to copyright content "against the policy of Misplaced Pages". Almost every reference in Misplaced Pages is a "link to copyright content". You really have lost the plot haven't you? Stalwart111 10:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

My Summary to Closing Admin

1- Subject meets WP:FOOTBALL based on the fact that he was signed by 3-4 fully professional leagues. He remained with those fully professional clubs for more than a year each. If we just discuss on the basis of probability (as many people on this page are doing), it is highly probable that he would have got a chance to play in a competitive match. That said, there are a number of references that clearly provide that Older played in fully pro Brazilian clubs. I can't recall any player who was described as having played professionally by third party independent sources but nevertheless did not play a single competitive match. Finally, the fact that he was a little less famous than his colleagues and that Internet was just starting then, might have resulted in him not being listed. Please note popularity and notability are two different things and should not be mixed.

2- Subject meets WP:GNG because he has been described as a fully pro player by 3-4 independent and reliable third party news sources and those are not just passing references. I have already explained in detail that Cite #1 is valid because Futebol interior has an editorial staff of its own (Please read the discussion above).

Based on these, I strongly believe that Jordan Older deserve a mention in history, and should be given one. Usmanwardag (talk) 06:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Zoing! My joke about the whole speaking Swiss-thing just blew past you, didn't it. You know that SOME Swiss is actually what they call Rätoromanisch, of course... in German. That is what I must have meant by "Swiss" (... no, wait, that isn't what I meant at all by "Swiss"... Because the thing is that German... Swiss... Swedish is a Germanic... Rätoro... You still don't... Never mind, Dude. It's okay. Sie verstehen mich nicht mehr, als ich Sie verstehen, und das ist, ein Teil des Problems zwischen uns zu sein scheint. Ist jetzt alles klar??). When you can produce an actual name to go along with cite #1 ("Interior Football Agency" is not a name) Ich werde meinen Hut wieder essen. I see that they also borrowed a picture of Older from his Facebook page for the article in Futebolinterior. Good thing Older had released the copyright on his Facebook page for that picture in advance. Glück, I'd say. Sind wir fertig? KDS4444 07:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@Usmanwardag: a qucik note, your comment "Subject meets WP:FOOTBALL based on the fact that he was signed by 3-4 fully professional leagues" is factually incorrect, you have to actually play in the leagues to be considered notable - it clearly says "A player who signs for a domestic team but has not played in any games is not deemed to have participated in a competition, and is therefore not generally regarded as being notable." GiantSnowman 09:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: a quick reply: it is highly unrealistic to assume that 1) the player who has signed for 3-4 fully professional clubs and stayed there for more than a year, and 2) who has been mentioned by absolutely independent third party sources to have played for those fully professional clubs, did not ever get to play a single minute in a competitive match. Let not the the fact that he was not that famous mix with the fact that he was notable. Usmanwardag (talk) 09:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

But if he played for them in a competitive first-team game then why are there are no reliable sources confirming it? There are plenty of comprehensive online football databases, especially for a nation like Brazil where football is so important. There are numerous cases where a player has been signed to a professional club for a long time but hardly (or never) played. Steve Harper took 5 years to make his debut for Newcastle United, and only played an average of 10 games a season for them over a 20 year career. GiantSnowman 10:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Usmanwardag, my suggestion would be to show sources that document games played in other leagues. A player who can be shown to have played in multiple fully professional leagues has a much better case for notability than one who can only be confirmed to have played in one such league (as is the case here). And, an aside, please stop questioning the motivations of other editors. I can't speak for them, but my recommendation is based almost solely on the dearth of proper sourcing for this subject. The facebook shenanigans and the drama on this page, I discount. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 12:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: You might want to see this http://uslpro.uslsoccer.com/stats/23496.html, he played in a match of a fully professional league, still any doubts?? Usmanwardag (talk) 18:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Irrelevant when he fails WP:GNG so comprehensively - as everyone apart from you concluded long ago! GiantSnowman 18:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to reiterate but please read my above comment. There are at least 4 citations that are absolutely about the subject and 7 others with passing mentions about the subject (See the citations of the original article and my first reply to User KDS4444). If that's not notability, then what is? Please explain.

I want to reply to one of the earlier comments of User KDS4444 in which he said that Futebol Interior doesn't have any author. It has and that's Futebol Interior Agency. Now, someone will come and correct me that it can't be called an author. So, here's a link for your reference http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/asia/prisoners-escape-in-indonesia.html?ref=todayspaper That article doesn't have any author? Why? Because it's simply news. In blogs, they (Futebol Interior) do give credits to their authors and they have editorial staff of their own. I think you have got my point. And one final note to Giant Snowman: you said that everyone apart from me concluded long ago that this article fails WP:GNG. So, just to remind, here are the editors who voted keep.

-@Buffbills7701: -@Eragon.raju: -@FergusM1970: -@Fussballspieler11: -@Sourov0000:

Thanks! Usmanwardag (talk) 19:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

1) WP:NOTAVOTE. 2) Fussballspieler11 has been blocked so saying he's on your side isn't the best tactic. 3) Seriously, just flipping listen for once! GiantSnowman 19:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

1- Absolutely agreed. Was just showing you that everything has not been concluded as you said. 2- Yeah, that's a good point about the blocked user, probably he was spoiling the discussion by posting walls and walls of text, but anyway. 3- I'm listening mate, but there are 10 citations. 10! Not a small quantity. 4 are absolutely about the subject. To be notable, how many do you require? Please explain. Perhaps you can better guide me about it. Usmanwardag (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not about how many sources there are - a non-notable person could have 100 references, a notable person could have 3. It's to do with the quality of the source, and how significant their coverage of the subject is. GiantSnowman 20:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

So what sort of source would satisfy you? Personally I think this article is just above the bar for notability; there's clear evidence that he has played in a fully professional league, even if it was only a US one. Obviously you don't think that is a legitimate source, so what would be?--FergusM1970 20:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

You are both showing a basic failure to understand GNG. We are not doubting that he played some minutes in a lowly US league. We are doubting that he has not received significant coverage in reliable third, party sources i.e. something that covers him in great detail, not just passing mentions. GiantSnowman 20:43, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

There's at least one whole article in Futebol Interior about him. As KDS4444 can tell you it's written in Brazilian, but anyone who speaks Portuguese should be able to read it too.--FergusM1970 20:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

1- He did not play in a lowly US league; he played in a fully professional USL soccer league, listed as fully professional by Misplaced Pages. 2- (i) full article on Futebol Interior (already proved that it's reliable (http://www.futebolinterior.com.br/news/259995+Ex-jogador_vira_empresario_e_comeca_a_ganhar_espaco_no_futebol), (ii), If you look closely, the article mentions Older a lot of times and is certainly credible (so not a passing reference at all!) http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html, {iii) http://web.archive.org/web/20020209014728/http://www.tricolornet.com.br/noticias/arquivo1999/990717.htm A whole paragraph about Jordan Older which, somehow, proves that this is not a passing mention. There are some other mentions too, but for the sake of brevity, I will stick with these. Usmanwardag (talk) 03:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman:And what do you mean by quality/significant coverage? What qualifies? Usmanwardag (talk) 06:34, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to call the closing admin's attention to the threats I received by the user Stalwart111 on my talk page.. If I was being offensive, someone should have told me here. I'll take it as a serious threat to stop making my point on this AfD. I wonder what's the User Stalwart's motive behind this?? Usmanwardag (talk) 18:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't be silly, there are no threats in what he wrote. He just gave you a friendly advice to stop behaving in a disruptive way. A more friendly advice than you IMHO deserve. As for his motives he's probably fed up with your behaviour on this AfD, just like everyone else here. Do you really seriously believe that your behaviour here is helping Jordan Older? Thomas.W 18:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You are not Stalwart's representative. You are not the closing admin. You are not the judge. So, please... Usmanwardag (talk) 18:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Thomas.W's summary is a good one, so I borrowed it. It was posted on your talk page because calling you out here on a conduct issue wouldn't have been appropriate. But if you want to draw attention to it, be my guest. Most comments here with regard to your conduct have been in lock-step with mine. Stalwart111 23:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Addition to my Aforementioned Summary

I'd like to add little details to the summary I added above.

FuteBol Interior (which is one of the main references) is reliable because (i) The article has an author that is FuteBol Interior Agency. Just to clarify, no specific author is cited in the news related articles. This is an example: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/world/asia/prisoners-escape-in-indonesia.html?ref=todayspaper (ii) Blog of the site can be checked which proves the fact that it has an editorial staff of its own. (iii) A huge number of wikipedia entries link to this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?search=futebolinterior.com.br&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1 (iv) A large number of sites ranked highly in Alexa link to this site (This is not the most convincing point but still it helps). Usmanwardag (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Futebolinterior is history, so you can stop writing about them. If you scroll up a bit in the wall of text you'll see that we've checked the references, with the best sources there are, and all evidence shows that Jordoan Older A) has not played a single match in the Brazilian Serie A (see further up the wall), and B) he has also not played a single match in Sweden (he was there for a test, with a Swedish third division team, training with the team, but was found to be not good enough for them, so he was sent back home again; there's a lot more about that too further up the wall). So all he's got left on his soccer CV is 12 minutes on the pitch, playing in the top US amateur league. Thomas.W 18:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're clearly uninformed, the database you used is incomplete, I checked other players known to play in Brazil and they were not in it either so you can stop with this line of reasoning. The Swedish team has been in various leagues including the Swedish 1st division, but this is irrelevant too. I really don't understand your logic here talking about everything but the notability of the subject of the article!.... FYI: In 1990, Ljungskile SK was playing in Swedish "Division 5" and gained promotion to "Division 4", "Division 3", "Division 2", "Division 1" until they reached Allsvenskan in 1997. Usmanwardag (talk) 19:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I've lived much of my live in Sweden, I'm fluent in Swedish and I'm a soccer/football fan, so I know a lot about Ljungskile SK, most probably more than you do. Older tried out for a spot on the team in 2005, so what Ljungskile did in 1994-1997 is of no interest, what matters more is that they did not play in the first division when Older visited them (a very short visit, because on June 22 2005 he hadn't yet arrived, and on July 1 2005 he had already left, so he couldn't have spent even a week there...). But even that is of very little interest since the team website clearly states that he was not good enough for them so they weren't interested in is services (I've kindly provided a link to that page on the team website a bit further up, if you're interested; translate.google.com might be able to translate that story for you, it's just a passing mention of Older on that page too though, just like on the one Older provided a link to). As for other players not being in the Brazilian database I would be interested in which players you searched for, and their credentials, just to check your story, because after seeing you in action here I'm not prepared to take your word for anything. Thomas.W 19:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you called the Swedish team 3rd division (which they were not) and you also think you know all about Jordan Older's travel plans 8 years ago, but again, I'm trying to bring you back to the topic at hand, so, to remind you, this is irrelevant, and I've debunked the Brazilian database in the comments below, it's clearly a database that is incomplete, but again this is irrelevant too, because the topic of this Afd is about what the sources say, not what some random database DOESN'T say. Usmanwardag (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

A) (to take it in opposite order) You have not debunked the Brazilian database, all you have done is claim that it is incomplete, without proving it (just to remind you, for the Nth time: the burden of proof lies with Jordan Older/you to prove beyond doubt that Jordan Older has played in the Brazilian first division, because according to WP:Verifiability the burden of evidence lies with the person who enters something in the article; and so far you haven't been able to prove that JO has played even a single second in down there), and B) the first story on the Ljungskile team website, the one Older himself linked to as a reference, is dated 22 June 2005 and speaks of him in future tense, as an American who is going to practice with them for a while, while the second story, which I've linked to elsewhere on this wall of text, is dated 1 July 2005 and speaks of him in past tense, as someone who visited them but left again because he wasn't good enough. So you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that he spent less than a week there. Thomas.W 20:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Summary (Continued from Above):

All the discussions about the leagues, the minutes and poking fun and bashing this poor man's reputation are not relevant, each league has its own Misplaced Pages page with all the needed information (If closing admin has the doubts, he can consult those pages). At this point I would just like to reiterate the main points:

1) Futebol Interior (a respected source) did a front page feature on Jordan Older that said he played for 3 Serie A teams in Brazil, it also said that he played for teams in Europe and was called up to the USA National Team training camp, this is enough for both WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL... 2) PV News (another respected source) said he played professional soccer in Europe and Brazil, this is enough to add support to the claims 3) the USL Pro Leauge official stats said he played minutes in a FIFA sanctioned fully professional league, this proves WP:NFOOTBALL 4) official blogs from Sao Paulo FC which are edited and are usable sources acording to wikipedia guides say that he played for 3 Serie A teams in Brazil 5) offical pro team blogs from Sweden say this too... this is too much information to ignore and to doubt. Usmanwardag (talk) 19:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• 1: There's no evidence that this guy ever actually appeared in professional matches for any of those clubs, and just being part of a national team training camp isn't grounds for any notability. 2: see point 1. 3:That league isn't fully professional, so that has been debunked. 4 and 5:Again, where's the evidence for any appearances? There's evidence he was signed to these teams, not that he actually appeared in professional matches. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)No, no and no. A) The three teams he claims to have played for in Brazil were not first division teams at the time Older claims to have played for them (see further up the page), and a search in a Brazilian database with all players who have played in the Brazilian First division returns nothing for Jordan Older; B) the sources only repeat what Jordan Older told them (according to info on the official website of the team in Sweden Older claims to have played for, the one he provided a link to, which was a third division amateur team, Older has not played for them, ever, not a single second), and C) San Diego Gauchos, the team older earned his 12 minutes with, played in the Pro Development League, an amateur league. Period. So you can stop your desperate attempts to save his article and his honour. Thomas.W 19:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The SD Gauchos also played in the USL second division, a professional league. That's the one they were in in 2003.--FergusM1970 19:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

1) Jordan Older played more than 12 minutes, stop with this bashing of the poor man, the other links showing more minutes are listed above if you need them, so stop with repeating 12 minutes over and over. 2) the league is listed as fully professional in the Misplaced Pages guide to fully professional leagues, it is also listed as fully professional and FIFA sanctioned on the Misplaced Pages page about the USL leagues, and this is even not the subject of the discussion. I am trying to bring you back to the topic, can you come with me so we can have a useful discussion about the proper topic of the Afd? 3) That database has been thoroughly debunked, type in Cobi Jones into it, he is known to have played in Brazil after Jordan Older but he doesn't appear in the database either, so the database idea (a good idea) is out of the window, sorry mate! Now let's talk about his notability apart from these 3 IRRELEVENT DISTRACTIONS that you keep repeating, cheers mate. Usmanwardag (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

He doesn't have any notability, so there's nothing to talk about. His tall stories in his selfpromotional article have been thoroughly debunked. The guy lives in a fantasy world (claiming to have played in the Swedish first division when the website of the team, which wasn't even close to the first division, clearly says that all he did was practice a little with them, and that they didn't want him because he wasn't good enough; sheesh, get real...), can't you read? Thomas.W 19:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes I can read, ha ha... Good one, mate. I'm sure everyone has promoted themselves at some time, nothing wrong with that, but I'm reading in Futebol Interior (which is a reliable source used hundreds of times already on Misplaced Pages) what it says about Jordan Older playing there in Brazil in the Serie A for Uniao Sao Joao, Paulista FC, and Portugusa Santista and the US National Team, and in the PV news where it says he played professionally. I've seen more than one front page spread about this player. He's not Zlatan Ibrahimovic, but he's clearly a seasoned veteran professional soccer player. Heck there are news articles about him in 4 languages!...... And now he's founded the Ventura Film Festival in 2004 which is largest in Ventura County where he plays Academy Award winning films and has given awards to Academy Award winning actors and celebrities. Sounds notable to me! Usmanwardag (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like you're trying to change focus here, away from the soccer, now that things have started to become embarassing. But personally I would rate "the largest film festival in Ventura county" (How many film festivals are there in Ventura County? One? Two?)) as even less notable than 12 minutes in an amateur league somewhere. Thomas.W 20:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Additional Note: Older's built up enough contacts around the world in professional football that he's recently become a professional football/soccer agent and already sent a young American lad to play professionally in the German Bundesliga, according to the PV News (a fully edited print and online newspaper, the author of this article is Travis Perkins.) http://www.pvnews.com/sports/article_ed96e25e-76da-11e2-a086-001a4bcf887a.html Sounds like he did the kid a favor by sending him to play professionally in Germany. Usmanwardag (talk) 20:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And that's not notable either. Getting desperate, Jordan? Thomas.W 20:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's notable and so did several other editors. In fact, the Santa Barbara film festival is only 30 minutes from the Ventura Film Festival which Jordan Older founded in 2004 if you know, the Santa Barbara Film Festival is one of the top film festivals in the world. And I don't know how many film festivals there are in Ventura. This is another one of your irrelevent discussions. I've counted at least 3 irrelevant topics you've brought up. What I do know is that many reliable news sources/newspapers said that Jordan Older played in the Brazilian Serie A with Paulista, Uniao Sao Joao, and Portuguesa Santista, and that he also played in the USL Professional Leauge and that league is listed as fully professional by Misplaced Pages and FIFA. And on top of being a well traveled and experienced professional soccer player he has founded his own film festival - the Ventura Film Festival and he's recently become a sports agent for King Sports Management. Honestly, that sounds like an interesting (notable) life to me. Note: I did not witness any of this myself I am just reading from reliable news sources that are used in hundreds of other Wikiepdia articles. Cheers mate! Usmanwardag (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

USA Today March 8, 1996 "Speedy wing Cobi Jones, 25, was acquired Thursday by the Los Angeles Galaxy. ... The playmaker spent the last several months in Brazil after signing but not playing with Vasco da Gama. USA Today is decent source for something like this I think. Cattivi (talk) 20:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)Signing but not getting playtime is something that often happens, especially with younger players. Which is precisely why having signed for a team isn't enough to prove notability, you must also be able to prove that the player has actually got some playtime. And so far Older & Co haven't been able to prove that he actually played in the Brazilian first division, as claimed in the article. Thomas.W 20:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Dude, this isn't the first hoax article I've come across - I've debunked one myself awhile back. This one is no different to that. This guy has flat-out lied about almost everything, and pretty much all of your sources have been analysed to death - and defeated. Why carry on this farce any further, when the self-promotion this guy has done, to the point of making up various things, is evident? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)