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	== ~~Placenames~~ ==		== Londonderry/Derry ==

			The current situation regarding the use of these two names which was decided back in 2004 isn’t really appropriate. Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county. It’s perfectly acceptable to use both in Misplaced Pages articles just as people living there currently do today. By favouring one over the other you fuel resentment. It’s also appropriate to include the name of the county or city in the other recognised languages, people worked hard to have Ulster-Scots and Irish recognised in N.Ireland as languages which is why they were recognised in the Good Friday Agreement. ] (]) 16:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
	The IMoS guidance on ] is a bit outdated. It differentiates between the two jurisdictions in relation to how Irish, Scots or other versions or derivations of placenames are shown, as follows:
			: You say "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", but then suggest that that is "favouring one over the other". I am at a loss to see the basis on which you suggest that the latter follows from the former. If, for example, there was a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' and the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, but would lead to endless edits. On the other hand, if there were a rule that the city could only be described as 'City of Derry' but the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would not be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, as well as leading to endless edits. Likewise if there were a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' but the county could only be described as 'County Londonderry'. Also, the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the city do appear at ] and the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the county do appear at ]. They should not appear every time that either the city or the county is mentioned - Misplaced Pages does not for example follow every reference to Dublin city or county with (Irish:Baile Átha Cliath). ] (]) 17:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
	<blockquote>For articles on places on the island of Ireland, show the modern name in English, Irish and, if appropriate, Scots in the infobox if the article has one.
			::It is favouring one over the other. Not everyone that searches for the city or the county will necessarily look at both. They should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned to maintain a level of impartiality.
			::Regarding endless edits you’re far more likely to experience this if Misplaced Pages appears to favour one side of the political divide. You will always get more extreme people however that refuse to accept the the other side of the coin. ] (]) 17:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
			:::Anyone who searches for "City of Londonderry" or "Londonderry City" will be redirected to ]. While anyone who searches for "County Derry" will be redirected to "County Londonderry". I note that you suggest that "both ... should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned". I feel that, if e.g. Martin McGuinness' article stated that "he was second-in-command of the IRA in ]/Londonderry," there would be many objections from "one side of the political divide". I am still at a loss as to the basis on which you suggest that the current policy "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", favours "one side of the political divide". I feel that the current policy attempts to avoid favouring either side of the political divide.] (]) 17:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
			::::Yes someone searching for Londonderry will be directed to Derry which might upset them. Likewise someone searching for County Derry will be redirected to County Londonderry which again might cause offence. There will always be objections however we live in a time of compromise. For the benefit of fairness and consistency I think it would be better if Mr McGuinness’s page showed both. I wonder
			::::Since you’re having trouble understanding I’ll try and explain it a little clearer. By referring to the city as Derry that favours the nationalist side at the expense of the Unionists. By referring to the County as Londonderry that favours the Unionist side at the expense of the Nationists. However if it was Londonderry/Derry and County Londonderry/County Derry respectively that would be fairer.
			::::Being fair means you have to treat everyone equally in all things the way it works at the moment is selective and divisive. That’s not how it works in N.Ireland, Misplaced Pages needs to catch up. ] (]) 17:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
			:::::Per ] we're here to provide an encyclopedia, not to worry about people's feelings and I strongly doubt that anyone who would be "upset" by the choice of one name or the other will be oblivious to the fact that the alternative name exists. The current compromise is one of the most durable and well respected ones I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages and infinitely preferable to any stroke city alternatives. There are people who find it easy to get offended by everything, it's a hard old world, no? ] (]) 09:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
			:Remember before it was County Londonderry it was mostly County Coleraine. Unlike with the city, there is no historical precedent to call the county Derry, whereas we have gone with the historical precedent when it comes to the city by using its original name and the name the city has elected to call itself internally. As a result referring to the county as Derry is purely colloquial and has had no basis in any official history or the like, unlike with the city where it's clearly more complex as it was renamed. Additionally please do not change the country in articles from Northern Ireland to Ireland or refer to it as N. Ireland, this shows a bias in your editing by attempting to diminish Northern Ireland or remove it altogether. ] ] 01:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
			::History is not the issue here its what the people actually living there refer to the county and the city as. There are people living in Londonderry/Derry who find it offensive that the city is only referred to at Derry. By using both names it doesn’t show a bias on Misplaced Pages’s part to either side. Changing Northern Ireland to N. Ireland is not diminishing the country at all. On the contrary it does the opposite, referring to it as “Northern Ireland” still causes confusion for people globally who mistake it for meaning the north of Ireland. Using N.Ireland follows an internationally recognised precedent for example N.Korea and S.Korea. ] (]) 01:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
			:::I don't think Misplaced Pages article pages ever refer to Northern Ireland or North Korea as N.Ireland or N.Korea. ~ ] <span style="font-size: 10px; color: #161;">(])</span> 08:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
			::::Misplaced Pages probably doesn’t but it’s quite common outside of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
			:::::The thing is we are on Misplaced Pages. Is it quite common outside of Misplaced Pages? I think you'd find it difficult to find a style guide that recommends N.Ireland or N.Korea or examples on websites but please prove me wrong. ~ ] <span style="font-size: 10px; color: #161;">(])</span> 06:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
			::::::I dunno about style guides but it’s common here in the UK and Ireland it’s also used for major sporting events. Like I said it can cause confusion, it’s as if people don’t know that N.Ireland exists as a separate country from the rest of Ireland.
			::::::Anyway that’s a separate point to the Londonderry/Derry point I was raising. That both should be used for the city and the county. ] (]) 07:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

			== Dublin University --> Trinity College Dublin ==
	For places in the Republic of Ireland, other names should be shown in parentheses immediately after the common name in the lead. For places in Northern Ireland, only show non-English-language names in parentheses after the bolded name if the name in that language demonstrates the origin of the common name. Other names and etymologies can be described in the body of the article (after the lead, if the article has one).

			I would propose that there should be a stated recommendation that references be made to the more common name of ] rather than to the ] or ]. See, for example, to ]. This is particularly relevant to biographical articles, in recounting where someone studied. Exceptions I'd envisage would be
	The meaning of non-English place names should be given if known. All such meanings should be fully cited. For names that appear in the lead, provide the meaning in parenthesis immediately after the common name. Otherwise, provide the meaning in the body of the article (after the lead, if the article has one).
			* recipients of honorary degrees;
			* references to the university structure itself;
			* sports teams, where the name of the club has DU in its name; and
			* references to the constituency, where the link should be to ].
			] (]) 13:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

			:Given the aforementioned provisos, I would be fully in support of this. ] (]) 08:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
	Examples:
			::Considering it's a pre-eminent university, and for others we frequently reference the colleges rather than the university (such as for Cambridge and Oxford) I don't see an issue with this. The fact it only has one college is neither here nor there, people study at Trinity College, not Dublin University. ] ] 09:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
	* For places in the Republic of Ireland:
			::: Same for me. This matter has troubled even members and senior officials of the University / College, and top authorities, including the courts, over more than 150 years, and most have concluded that there is little (or no) practical gap between the two, but they do have technically separate aspects. Hon. degrees are the one clear functional example, yes, and the rest - organisational structure (and appointment and internal electoral matters, and course creation) and legalities, the constituency and the clubs, are clear. I would add:
	:'''Drogheda''' ({{Irish place name\|Droichead Átha}})<sup class="reference"></sup> ...
			::: * coats of arms (and possibly other symbolic material)
	:'''Wexford''' ({{derive\|Old Norse\|Veisafjǫrðr\|inlet of the mud flat}};<sup class="reference"></sup> {{irish place name\|Loch Garman\|lake of Garman}})<sup class="reference"></sup>...
			::: * roles attached to one or the other entity, e.g. the Chancellorship and its deputies, Visitorships
	* For places in Northern Ireland whose names are not derived from English:
			::: On the most commonly encountered case, degrees, I think we can be firm - to all, for most purposes, these are Trinity degrees (those trying to insist on "Univ. of Dublin" just because it has "University" in it, can be disregarded), as the common name principle applies (and TCD ''is'' a university, despite all the fluffiness about UoD/DU). ] (]) 09:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
	:'''Dungannon''' ({{Irish derived place name\|Dún Geanainn\|Geanann's stronghold}})<sup class="reference"></sup>...
			::::I'd support this too. Especially instead of Dublin University, which redirects to University of Dublin. There's a hatnote at ] for good reason: the potential confusion with UCD and DCU. Also, use of Trinity College Dublin in biographical articles is consistent with ], as Michael C. Latham is now. An interesting article is ]: all three forms are used, as he was a graduate, chancellor and honorary degree recipient! ] (]) 09:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
	:'''Strangford''' ({{derive\|Old Norse\|Strangr-fjǫrðr\|strong ]}})<sup class="reference"></sup>...
			::::: Yes, "DU" is a bit of an invention - if it's anything, it's "University of Dublin". But in the famous Reid judgment, the conclusion of the Master of the Rolls was pretty clear "...There was no separate incorporation of . If there had been, it must have been by Royal Charter ... There was no express creation of it apart from the College. The College had the power of electing the Chancellor and the other officers, and of defining and determining the conferring of degrees. The College was supreme, and the University was a branch or department of it, if indeed the College itself was not more acourately the University." So the whole University limited structure is really more of a Victorian confection put around the real ancient TCD. ] (]) 09:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
	* For places in Northern Ireland whose names are derived from English, the other names should only appear in the infobox along with a source. </blockquote>
			::::::Did not know they had separate Arms. But on the law, I'll up the ante: the Acts of Union referenced this way, when it came to the 100 seats for Ireland at Westminster 'two for eaoh county in Ireland, two for the city of Dublin, two for the city of Cork, one for the University of Trinity College, and one for each of the most considerable cities, towns, and boroughs'. Aside from the wonderful vagueness, the giving of the same number of MPs to Dublin and Cork, and those in turn having just one more than, say, Portlaoise, or Trinity, it's a pretty telling description of the University, no?] (]) 09:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
			:::::And now that TUD is a thing... Wish Dublin had been more varied in its choice of letters. TCD, UCD, DCU, TUD, DU... at least BIMM, RCSI, and NCAD are distinct. ] (]) 14:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

			If we were to include it on the ] page, should be put it in the biographical articles or the place names section?
	This may have been premised on the Irish versions (but not other derivations) of placenames having legal status in the Republic. However, nowadays, due not only to the post-] regime of parity of esteem but also to the deepening impact of human rights instruments such as the ] (ratified by the UK) and the ] (ratified by both states), the state is obliged to respect the original and authentic version of placenames. I therefore propose to condense the quoted section to provide for one main template for use in the lede, based on the one shown above for ''Dungannon'' for Irish place names, and that for ''Strangford'' for other derivations. Thus, for most placenames on the island the default template would expect ''modern name as used in English\|Irish version\|translation of Irish version''. The current provision for annotation only in the infobox of other versions of the (very few) English-derived Northern placenames would also go, so that they would be treated equally with names not derived from English.
			I would propose the text:
			{{quote frame\|Unless the specific context requires, refer to ] rather than the ] or ]. It may be relevant to mention the university in the case of the ] constituency, in the case of sports clubs which use '''Dublin University''' in their name, or a position specifically related to the university, such as ].}} ] (]) 15:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
			:The text looks good. For placement, maybe the "Place names" section is preferable, because of the use of UoD/DU beyond biographical articles. Thanks, ] (]) 22:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
			:: With a cross-reference / cross-link at bios. ] (]) 22:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
			FWIW, following this I've edited those pages that relate to education or employment to mention TCD only. I didn't edit references to honorary degrees, I'm somewhat neutral on what the better style is, although I could see a case on the basis of familiarity to refer to TCD only. But they're less relevant to biography in any case, being more of a footnote to someone's career. –] (]) 11:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
			: Great; thanks! I’d leave the hon. degrees; AFAIK, while the two bodies may be one for most people, and the courts, insofar as there is a separation, the University entities do have a special role in those degrees. ] (]) 11:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

			== Corran Purdon ‎and Derry ==
	I realise that this will require a lot of re-editing, but I expect that others will help and even if not, I am happy to see that through. ] (]) 22:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

			Is "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" consistent with the naming convention on the city or an attempt to circumvent it? ] (]) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
	:You've written a lot above and I'm not sure I follow entirely.
			:In normal circumstances I'd say that's trying to circumvent it. It doesn't matter what they call it personally, otherwise we'd have this kind of things scattered all over the place for Derry, County Londonderry, heck even Northern Ireland. I don't think however a user called Leitrim Lad is necessary trying to circumvent specifically, but it's ultimately irrelevant information anyway whatever the article subject happened to call a place. ] ] 18:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
	:One things your proposing is that where, for example, we currently have:
			::You might think a name like Leitrim Lad might suggest otherwise, but they have tried "]" followed by "]" followed by "]" followed by "] (Londonderry)" followed by "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" which seems to demonstrate an unusually strong interest in the retention of the word in question. ] (]) 20:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
	::'''Cork''' ({{Irish place name\|Corcaigh\|marsh}}) ...
	:... we would have:
	::'''Cork''' ({{Irish derived place name\|Corcaigh\|marsh}}) ...
	:Is that correct? --] (]) 19:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
	:::Nope, the whole aim is to make the IMoS guidance simpler, while encouraging the addition of the meaning of the placename to the lede. Thus (using the examples above) in the Republic, rather than the current lede wording:
	::::'''Drogheda''' ({{Irish place name\|Droichead Átha}})
	:::...we would have the more informative
	::::'''Drogheda''' ({{Irish place name\|Droichead Átha\|bridge of the ford}});
	:::...while in the North, the current
	::::'''Dungannon''' ({{Irish derived place name\|Dún Geanainn\|Geanann's stronghold}})
	:::...is shortened to
	::::'''Dungannon''' ({{Irish place name\|Dún Geanainn\|Geanann's stronghold}}).
	:::(The difference might be clearer when you view in edit mode.) The present guidance treats Anglicised placenames as "Irish" if they are on one side of the border and "Irish-derived" if they are on the other, a distinction I can't grasp. My proposal is only that we have succinct and uniform guidance, and one main template for Irish placenames. It would take a while to work this through; not a bot job as the meanings of many placenames are contested or lost, but we can keep the additional text and practice that deals with such cases. ] (]) 21:58, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
	::::Well, it's more complicated in Ulster in that Irish Gaelic and Ulster-Scots are both recognised minority languages, so your proposal would look something more like this:
	:::::'''Dungannon''' ({{Irish place name\|Dún Geanainn\|Geanann's stronghold}}; ]: ''Rathgannon'')
	::::I think it looks messy, personally. I'd prefer to keep the derivation in the lead and other names in the infobox. <font color="#004225">—</font> ]] 15:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

			== MOS:FLAGS discussion with regard to Ulster again ==
	:::::Oppose everything except for adding the meaning of places in the Republic. Other than that if it's not broke, don't fix it. As far as I have seen Brocach has never ever had the slightest interest in this field until now and I highly doubt their reasonings in regards to this issue.
	:::::The present arrangement was reached after quite a lengthy debate and works extremely well resulting in only one argument (totally devoid of logic and by Factocop no-less) in the entire time it has been around. It is not confusing or outdated or complicated. In fact the section in the IMoS is only there to enshrine what was agreed for the sake of posterity - all articles that are affected as far as we know comply with it. So what exactly does anyone else need to do to be confused by it? Me and Asarlai have done our best to ensure that is especially the case for Northern Ireland articles - and I'd bet I've added more Irish to this Misplaced Pages than almost all nationalist editors here other than Asarlai. Jon C. has also done his best to add Ulster-Scots to infobox's where there are sourced versions.
	:::::Derivation of the name in the lede and the modern minority language versions in the infobox. What's confusing? Also keeps clutter in the lede down, though I've always preferred the idea of the derivation to be in an "etmyology" section to further de-clutter the lede.
	:::::I say leave this issue to the editors who actually care about it. Though I must also comment:
	:::::#"''However, nowadays, due not only to the post-] regime of parity of esteem but also to the deepening impact of human rights instruments such as the ] (ratified by the UK) and the ] (ratified by both states), the state is obliged to respect the original and authentic version of placenames.''" - Unless I missed it, Misplaced Pages did not sign up to and so is not bound by the GFA or the European Charter or any other such things. It is also not bound by government control otherwise you'd have to back the usage of Londonderry for the city as that is it's official name in it's state (the UK).
	:::::#Also you argument is contradictory: "''the state is obliged to respect the original and authentic version of placenames.''" and "''Thus, for most placenames on the island the default template would expect ''modern name as used in English\|Irish version\|translation of Irish version''.''" - Many places "original and authentic" Irish names are not the same as the modern Irish. Also how do we not already in the place of the state, respect the original and authentic name of a place? Do the derivations not do that?
	:::::#Also what about places that orignally had an Irish name however where renamed with a completely different English name which has a modern Irish version that doesn't equate to the original and authentic Irish name of the place? One example being ] named after the townland of same name which beforehand was known in Irish as ''Dún Mór'', but in modern Irish is known as ''Baile Raghnail'', a Gaelicisation of Randalstown?
	:::::As I've said if it's not broke, don't fix it, and leave this issue to the people who actually care about it. ] <sup>]</sup> 00:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
	::::::I am bemused by the idea that if I hadn't edited about placenames before (which I have, many, many times), I should "leave this issue to the people who actually care about it". We are equals here. Those who actually care about it (including those of us who have been active on such matters for more than 40 years, Mabuska) know that the huge majority of placenames in all of Ireland are derived from the Irish language. It would then be necessary to construct an argument, which I have yet to see, for treating differently for Misplaced Pages purposes Irish placenames in 26 of the counties and Irish placenames in the other six counties.
	::::::Nothing that I said implies that Misplaced Pages must slavishly follow government usage. Specifically, I am not suggesting that Misplaced Pages is bound by international treaties to which it cannot accede. In referring to the treaty obligations voluntarily undertaken by the UK, I am only saying that the UK has formally and irrevocably given up the notion of insisting that only the Anglicised official version of any placename in Ireland had legitimacy. The state agreed to, and so as a matter of international law must, acknowledge the right of people in Derry to use Derry, recognise Ard Mhacha as the original version of Armagh, allow people to correspond with government using the Irish placename if that is favoured in their locality, etc.
	::::::Changes in Irish orthography mean that the "original and authentic" version of the placename may not be spelt the same way in 2013 as in 336 CE. Is that confusing for you? We go with the modern spelling of the original and authentic placename.
	::::::Unless someone can explain why the two jurisdictions need separate coding for Irish derivations, yes Mabuska, the current anomalous practice is "broke". My proposal is to fix it by applying a single template. ] (]) 00:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

			{{FYI\|pointer=y}}
	== Flagicons revisited 2 ==
			Please see ] <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 18:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

	I opened a discussion ], explaining why I was proposing to remove the list of icons from the "Flag icon" section. Nobody disagreed with me. I am removing them now. If anybody suddenly decides they do not agree after all, they are welcome to discuss it here, but please do not revert "per BRD". The edit is not bold, and there has already been extensive discussion, and an invitation to further discussion that was not taken up. ] (]) 09:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

	:+1 for 'do not revert "per BRD"'. That is probably the most misused phrase on the wiki.
	:Would you be OK with me adding the historical set of those templates, e.g.:
	:<blockquote>Similar templates exist for historical contexts:<br/><ul><li>]</li><li>]</li><li>]</li></ul><blockquote>
	:I may prod ]. It existed only in legal theory. --] (]) 11:57, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

	::Those templates are at ], and the Free State one is also at ], so they're indirectly linked to from here. We discovered that the Lordship and the Kingdom icons, at least, are hardly used on WP at all, so I don't see very much point in including them in the MOS. The Free State one has a bit more usage for lists of states, lists of state leaders, Olympic Games and such, so there might conceivably be a case for adding it. If you did – and I'm not seeing a lot of enthusiasm for adding anything more – you need only change the wording to "...templates have been developed to represent Ireland, Northern Ireland, the Irish Free State and the Republic of Ireland..."
	::I concur re "Southern Ireland". I would also like to see the creation of a Green Flag icon to repesent 19th-century nationalist Ireland, and the "1783" icon renamed as "saltire". ] (]) 16:19, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
	:::"Nationalist Ireland"? That wasn't ever a state. In the 19th Century, Ireland was part of the UK so the saltire or union flag should be used for that instead. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.5em 0.5em 0.6em;"> ''']''' (])</span> 16:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
	::::We're no longer talking about states. We have established that flagicons are not needed for Ireland as a "state" in that period. This is about "sporting and other contexts". ] was represented by the Green Flag when he was entered for the 1904 Olympics for Ireland (he ended up having to compete under the British flag, but that's another story). There'll be other instances where Irish people or organisations could usefully be represented by the Green Flag. ] (]) 18:18, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
	:::::Well, I'm assuming you mean this green flag? ] <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.5em 0.5em 0.6em;"> ''']''' (])</span> 18:41, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
	::::::@Scolaire, I've updated ] per the previous discussion. I'd support changing the "1783" alias to "saltire" also. However, that is a big piece of work. First a duplicate alias ("saltire") would need to be created. Then a bot process would need to change all uses of the "1783" alias to point to the "saltire" alias. Only when that bot process completes could the 1783 alias be removed. I don't know if it's worth it.
	::::::@CoE, the previous discussion was around the traditional green flag of Ireland. The green ] you link to above was used by merchant vessels. However, it was classified as incorrect in 1872 by the Viceroy of Ireland and were confiscated if discovered by the admiralty. The correct ensigns for Ireland while it was part of the United Kingdom is the ], ] or ]. --] (]) 22:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

	:::::::Thanks for that. No, I agree it's not worth all that trouble just to change an alias when the label isn't visible anyway. ] (]) 22:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

	== Are GAA biography articles violating Misplaced Pages policies? ==

	Brocach again seems to be going around imposing their rules on Misplaced Pages regardless of the actual rules. This time in regards to Gaelic player articles which seem to bypass the need for ] and ] sources, being backed up by what I can only assume is ]. For example the ] article:

	*Gaelic name in infobox with no verifiable source, with no results for a GAA player called "Gabriel Ó Brolcháin" on Google. Is this a violation of the spirit of ], which whilst applies to the lede, also in affect should cover the infobox as for all we know it's a made-up name. Brocach claimed at it is their registered GAA name, yet if so where is the source? In the Patsy Bradley example does this still not violate "Naming people" as it is not his everyday used name? If the GAA does work with registered Gaelic names then fine enough I'll accept that for the infobox, but not in the lede.
	*Gabriel, Patsy and others are listed, without any sources, as being "Irish" in the opening sentence of the lede. Is the protocol we use for nationality not based on sourced information where they have declared their nationality or such, or in the case of football etc. by the team they select? In regards to Gaelic sports this protocol must be an exception as there is no Northern Irish or British Gaelic football team. It is based on an all-Ireland basis here and so we can't easily deduce a nationality. Whilst the GAA is a nationalist organisation with nationalist ideals at its core, that doesn't mean that everyone who plays it is identifying as being of Irish nationality, as it is also just a sport despite its background, and to assume so is original research.

	Whilst Brocach removed "County Londonderry" from the ledes of several of these articles citing it wasn't sourced, he has insisted that the above non sourced information must remain in the article due to it being "long-established", and in "suggest you try telling Gabriel that you don't know his nationality", which is really the best argument I've ever read on Misplaced Pages :-$ It also means that thanks to Brocach's selective use of Misplaced Pages rules that we have articles on people that doesn't state what country they are from, but states an assumed nationality.

	As we all know, being ] is pointless where Brocach is concerned, so I propose that Gaelic player articles are brought into line with the rules and protocols, with a possible exception for the Irish name in the lede if the GAA do work in that way. That does leave the problem of stating where the player is actually from.

	] <sup>]</sup> 12:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
	:PMSL ...] (]) 12:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

	:Material added to Misplaced Pages needs to attributable to a verifiable source. But, I'm sorry Mabuska, after seeing I can only think: Pot. Kettle. Black.
	:You say Brocach provided no source to say Bradley is Irish. Well, you provided no source to say he's from Northern Ireland. The example just looks like two people warring over "Irish" vs. "from Northern Ireland" when we all know there's no contradiction in both. --] (]) 12:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

	::There are a few things here that I would like to discuss.
	::Firstly, nationality/citizenship as per ], should only go in the lead ] is an ethinic group and shouldnt go there.
	::Secondly, some one from NI maybe Irish or British, or both- by choice, a source is good. If not a neutral stance is better.
	::Thirdly, GAA clubs and counties require you registrar with your Irish name, so it is indeed correct to use the Irish name in the article, I dont use mine in everyday usage, but am still on a list somewhere with only my Irish nameand address.
	::Finally, there is a ] Mabuska. ] (]) 15:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

	:::"Irish" is both a citizenship (like British) and a nationality (like English, Welsh and Scottish). Both are fine by ]. There is no problem stating in the lead of an article that the subject is "Irish". That said, there is little to be gained by saying "Irish" vs. to "from Ireland" or "from Northern Ireland" ("location" per ]). I also agree that it can be helpful with respect to Northern Ireland.
	:::I am cautious though about the "source warring" that goes on over issues like this. For example, deferring to source means an ardent editor has to only find a single source supporting either "British" or "Irish" to push a POV on a subject. --] (]) 18:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

	::::Linking Irish to Irish People, which is an ethinic group (according to the opening line- while the note above the lead states both) is not to be done ] ''Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability'',
	::::It descibes citizenship/nationality as ''In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident''
	::::In either case someone from NI shouldnt have ] linked after their name. ] (]) 10:19, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	:::::So de-link it or update the ] article, whichever floats you boat, if that is causing you brain ache. But including "Irish" is no different from including "German", "French", "Scottish", "Austrian", "Dutch", or anything else. "...country of which the person is a citizen, national..." Irish citizenship/nationality includes Northern Ireland, it is not RoI specific.
	:::::Whether someone from Northern Ireland is "Irish" is subject to ], no less than whether someone from the RoI is "Irish". Of course, stating that someone is "from Northern Ireland" is equally subject to ] (no less than any other statement). Verifiability issues exist equally in either case.
	:::::"In either case someone from NI shouldnt have ] linked after their name." Why not? --] (]) 13:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	::::::"Irish citizenship/nationality includes Northern Ireland", with criteria. Also British includes NI, so as you qoute ]. As for "stating that someone is "from Northern Ireland" is equally subject to ]" while, er they are from NI, now I agree with the above PMSL. ] (]) 13:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	:::::::"'Irish citizenship/nationality includes Northern Ireland', with criteria." Nope. There's no 'criteria'. Irish nationality law makes no distinction between either jurisdiction on the island of Ireland. It is applied to the island-of-Ireland.
	:::::::In any case, irrespective of laws of citizenship, "Irish" is a valid description for anyone from the island of Ireland. No more or less than someone from England is called English (e.g. ]). Individual people may have their preferences as to what to be called. Sources may be requested to satisfy ], etc. Or there may be other considerations. But broadly speaking, there's nothing wrong with describing an Irishman as "Irish" any more than there is describing an Englishman as "English".
	:::::::"...er they are from NI..." Wonderful. So a source can be provided for that, if necessary? Great. That will suffice so. --] (]) 14:54, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
	{{od}}
	:Irish nationality law does have criteria, for both jurisdictions. I will try to phrase this as best I can. Saying somebody from the island is Irish, is basing it on ethnicity, or histortic nationality. But if I have indeed missed that please point to the guideline, otherwise as the ] guideline states, as above :''In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident''. ] (]) 15:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	::<small>Irish citizenship law applies without distinction to any person born on the island of Ireland. A number of acts of the Oireathas apply. But the most relevant is (still) the . Different people's individual circumstances may vary, but the law itself makes no distinction between any part of the island of Ireland.</small>
	::But anyway, with regard to WP:MOSBIO, you have missed a point. First is that it is a guideline: "Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions." Second is that the part you are quoting says:
	::* "In most modern-day cases..."
	::* "In most modern-day..."
	::* "In most..."
	::* "...most..."
	::Nationalities of people on these islands is an obvious exception where consensus is otherwise. People here are described as being "English", "Scottish", "Welsh", "Manx", etc. when there are in fact only two "nationalities" (of the kind you refer to): British or Irish. And so, just as there is nothing wrong with describing ] as "English" (or "from England"), there's nothing wrong with describing ] as being "Irish" (or "from Northern Ireland"). So long, of course, as those statements are ].
	::I personally think it is better to avoid statements of nationality for people from Northern Ireland in general (and prefer use of "from Northern Ireland"). I've been shot down in the past in proposing/supporting guidelines to that effect. How would you feel about one? --] (]) 17:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
	:::I was just typing a From NI comment when conflict of edit came up when I entered it.
	:::If there is proof that a person identifies as I/B-ish we should use it. But the less politically charge From NI is far better and more nuetral.
	:::I dont know why you have been shot down over that, its straight down the middle. ] (]) 17:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
	::::Like I wrote above, I'm cautious about deferring to RS. Sources should be used as a way to verify content, not determine it. --] (]) 19:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	:Seriously, though, do we need to say that Gaelic players are Irish at all? It's a sport that's based primarily in (the island of) Ireland, so surely Irish is the default and we should only need to give nationality for a British, American or Australian player? We don't say that somebody is an American American Football player or an Australian Australian Rules player, nor do we say American Football player from California or Australian Rules player from Victoria, so why do we need to say Irish Gaelic Football player or Gaelic Football player from Northern Ireland? ] (]) 18:11, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
	::Where people were born or from is often given e.g. ]. But, at the same, the approach like on that article is far more focused in the way it provides location information. --] (]) 19:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

	Actually RA, Gabriel Bradley's article states in it that he is from Glenullin, and well it is in County Lononderry, Northern Ireland. Not sourced, but he is from the Bradley GAA family of Glenullin. Far less controversial to state that than stating an unsourced nationality. As there are few sources for many of these Gaelic player articles we need to have some lee-way in being able to roughly state where they are from. Are Gaelic players tied down to their local club when they start off due to the parish-based lower level of the game or can they play for any team? ] <sup>]</sup> 11:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

	== Kingdom of Ireland, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ==

	In infoboxes and bios. What is the protocol for place of birth, death, etc when dealing with those who are from Ireland? Are they pipelinked to say Ireland? ] (]) 14:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
	:See ] for information. ] (]) 15:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
	::That whole guideline needs looked at again. It's very odd to just give the link as the island. Other former states have articles that people are linked too and this should be the case here also.
	::For example it's good enough in the infobox to state and link to the ] for ]'s birth place. ] is stated and linked to the ]. ] is stated and is linked to the article for ] in his "Life" section. So why can we not link to ] or ]? ] <sup>]</sup> 11:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

	:::I see no issue with linking to ] or ] as appropriate (and pipe link as normal). However, practice for people from other parts of the United Kingdom is to link to simply ], ] or ], rather than to ]. Folk from Ireland should be treated no differently. So, after 1801, link to ]. After 1921, link to ]. --] (]) 10:08, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

	:::I've added a start date (1 January 1801) to provide a range to the page. --] (]) 10:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

	== Implementation of ] ==

	Hi, can someone take a look at wrt ]. My edit was reverted without explanation, but perhaps someone can figure out what the problem is. --] (]) 13:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

	:Mindless application of IMOS without even reading the article or consuming its content. Did your edit improve the article? No. And that is the question every editor should ask themselves. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 14:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::That just looks a lot like ] to me. You're essentially saying that ] doesn't improve articles - I'm sure a lot of editors will disagree with you on that. Or have you an actual reason (based on sources, logic, whatever) as that guideline was applied to ]? --] (]) 14:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	:I think the article should be deleted. It just sticks together two similar things with the same name. It is like a dictionary entry. I don't believe there is any reliable source that talks about these two together as a single topic. ] (]) 14:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	::] being applied as per commonname, I reverted it. ] by the IP. ] (]) 14:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	::ps agree with Dmcq, should be deleted, poor topic. ] (]) 14:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::That may be so, but that's not what's being discussed in fairness. --] (]) 14:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::And I now also note our anon IP friend has reverted another editor (Murry1975) at . At least they're now putting a reason in their edit summary, although their reason is incorrect. The country didn't "become" Ireland in the 90's, it has always been called "Ireland" in the constitution. --] (]) 14:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::This is now at ANI due to my being hounded by the IP on three articles today. ] (]) 16:18, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

	:::::Very bad form! The edits at Series A banknotes are IMOS applicable. You have also quoted WP:IRE-IRL, to 3 edits where Ireland wasnt even the recognised name of the state. Shambles and bananas. If you wish to apply these guidelines I should think reading the article would help though I doubt you found the time to do so if you are making 3 edits in 3 minutes to 3 pages. IMOS warriors indeed. Highking and M1975 seem to be the same user, either that or they are spit roasting wikipedia together. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	::::::I see you are editing from a corporate ip. Do you really want to be responsible for everyone from there being banned from editing Misplaced Pages? ] (]) 16:54, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	::::::In fact I see it is annotated 'In response to vandalism from this IP address, abuse reports may be sent to its network administrator for investigation.' ] (]) 16:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::::::The second corporate banker who has had problems with IMOS too. ] (]) 17:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	OK Dmcq, Ill setup an account but I don't think i'm going to get blocked for a few reverts of questionable edits and encouraging talkpage discussion. I'm sure M1975 and Popaice will continue in the same vane of behavour regardless of what sanctions are placed on them. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:57, 13 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:I think your new account should be linked to your old ones. ] (]) 18:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	::So should your's, but here is my old account for the record <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	:The explicit mention of ROI as opposed to Ireland is there for when there may be contextual confusion. No contextual confusion there. Also the claims that Ireland wasn't the name of the state until the GFA is amusing, it's been the official name of the state in the English language for a long long time. Claims that it can't be used before the 1990s is absolute nonsense, pardon my French. ] ] 19:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
	:::Canters, in your edit summary here are you implying that M1975 had applied IMOS incorrectly? As I had made no ref. to IMOS. I do believe that the name of ROI was a bone of contentious between the UK and ROI up until the GFA. But if you have a reference to support it then Ill accept that, otherwise your revert was not welcome given that I had requested discussion and this was again ignored. Message received loud and clear. Discussion as a last resort. Edit war be the first port of call. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 20:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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Londonderry/Derry

The current situation regarding the use of these two names which was decided back in 2004 isn’t really appropriate. Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county. It’s perfectly acceptable to use both in Misplaced Pages articles just as people living there currently do today. By favouring one over the other you fuel resentment. It’s also appropriate to include the name of the county or city in the other recognised languages, people worked hard to have Ulster-Scots and Irish recognised in N.Ireland as languages which is why they were recognised in the Good Friday Agreement. Superlonghurst (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

You say "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", but then suggest that that is "favouring one over the other". I am at a loss to see the basis on which you suggest that the latter follows from the former. If, for example, there was a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' and the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, but would lead to endless edits. On the other hand, if there were a rule that the city could only be described as 'City of Derry' but the county could be described as both 'County Derry' and 'County Londonderry', then that would *not* be even-handed between both sides of the political divide, as well as leading to endless edits. Likewise if there were a rule that the city could be described both as 'City of Derry' and 'City of Londonderry' but the county could only be described as 'County Londonderry'. Also, the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the city do appear at Derry and the Irish and Ulster-Scots names of the county do appear at County Londonderry. They should not appear every time that either the city or the county is mentioned - Misplaced Pages does not for example follow every reference to Dublin city or county with (Irish:Baile Átha Cliath). Alekksandr (talk) 17:01, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

It is favouring one over the other. Not everyone that searches for the city or the county will necessarily look at both. They should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned to maintain a level of impartiality.

Regarding endless edits you’re far more likely to experience this if Misplaced Pages appears to favour one side of the political divide. You will always get more extreme people however that refuse to accept the the other side of the coin. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Anyone who searches for "City of Londonderry" or "Londonderry City" will be redirected to Derry. While anyone who searches for "County Derry" will be redirected to "County Londonderry". I note that you suggest that "both ... should appear each time the the city or the county is mentioned". I feel that, if e.g. Martin McGuinness' article stated that "he was second-in-command of the IRA in Derry/Londonderry," there would be many objections from "one side of the political divide". I am still at a loss as to the basis on which you suggest that the current policy "Effectively one side of the political divide can have the city while the other has the county", favours "one side of the political divide". I feel that the current policy attempts to avoid favouring either side of the political divide.Alekksandr (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes someone searching for Londonderry will be directed to Derry which might upset them. Likewise someone searching for County Derry will be redirected to County Londonderry which again might cause offence. There will always be objections however we live in a time of compromise. For the benefit of fairness and consistency I think it would be better if Mr McGuinness’s page showed both. I wonder

Since you’re having trouble understanding I’ll try and explain it a little clearer. By referring to the city as Derry that favours the nationalist side at the expense of the Unionists. By referring to the County as Londonderry that favours the Unionist side at the expense of the Nationists. However if it was Londonderry/Derry and County Londonderry/County Derry respectively that would be fairer.

Being fair means you have to treat everyone equally in all things the way it works at the moment is selective and divisive. That’s not how it works in N.Ireland, Misplaced Pages needs to catch up. Superlonghurst (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTCENSORED we're here to provide an encyclopedia, not to worry about people's feelings and I strongly doubt that anyone who would be "upset" by the choice of one name or the other will be oblivious to the fact that the alternative name exists. The current compromise is one of the most durable and well respected ones I've ever seen on Misplaced Pages and infinitely preferable to any stroke city alternatives. There are people who find it easy to get offended by everything, it's a hard old world, no? Valenciano (talk) 09:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Remember before it was County Londonderry it was mostly County Coleraine. Unlike with the city, there is no historical precedent to call the county Derry, whereas we have gone with the historical precedent when it comes to the city by using its original name and the name the city has elected to call itself internally. As a result referring to the county as Derry is purely colloquial and has had no basis in any official history or the like, unlike with the city where it's clearly more complex as it was renamed. Additionally please do not change the country in articles from Northern Ireland to Ireland or refer to it as N. Ireland, this shows a bias in your editing by attempting to diminish Northern Ireland or remove it altogether. Canterbury Tail talk 01:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

History is not the issue here its what the people actually living there refer to the county and the city as. There are people living in Londonderry/Derry who find it offensive that the city is only referred to at Derry. By using both names it doesn’t show a bias on Misplaced Pages’s part to either side. Changing Northern Ireland to N. Ireland is not diminishing the country at all. On the contrary it does the opposite, referring to it as “Northern Ireland” still causes confusion for people globally who mistake it for meaning the north of Ireland. Using N.Ireland follows an internationally recognised precedent for example N.Korea and S.Korea. Superlonghurst (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think Misplaced Pages article pages ever refer to Northern Ireland or North Korea as N.Ireland or N.Korea. ~ Ablaze (talk) 08:56, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages probably doesn’t but it’s quite common outside of Misplaced Pages. Superlonghurst (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The thing is we are on Misplaced Pages. Is it quite common outside of Misplaced Pages? I think you'd find it difficult to find a style guide that recommends N.Ireland or N.Korea or examples on websites but please prove me wrong. ~ Ablaze (talk) 06:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I dunno about style guides but it’s common here in the UK and Ireland it’s also used for major sporting events. Like I said it can cause confusion, it’s as if people don’t know that N.Ireland exists as a separate country from the rest of Ireland.

Anyway that’s a separate point to the Londonderry/Derry point I was raising. That both should be used for the city and the county. Superlonghurst (talk) 07:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Dublin University --> Trinity College Dublin_Trinity_College_Dublin-20230504135400">

I would propose that there should be a stated recommendation that references be made to the more common name of Trinity College Dublin rather than to the University of Dublin or Dublin University. See, for example, this edit to Michael C. Latham. This is particularly relevant to biographical articles, in recounting where someone studied. Exceptions I'd envisage would be

recipients of honorary degrees;
references to the university structure itself;
sports teams, where the name of the club has DU in its name; and
references to the constituency, where the link should be to Dublin University (constituency).

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)_Trinity_College_Dublin"> _Trinity_College_Dublin">

Given the aforementioned provisos, I would be fully in support of this. Xx78900 (talk) 08:39, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Considering it's a pre-eminent university, and for others we frequently reference the colleges rather than the university (such as for Cambridge and Oxford) I don't see an issue with this. The fact it only has one college is neither here nor there, people study at Trinity College, not Dublin University. Canterbury Tail talk 09:18, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Same for me. This matter has troubled even members and senior officials of the University / College, and top authorities, including the courts, over more than 150 years, and most have concluded that there is little (or no) practical gap between the two, but they do have technically separate aspects. Hon. degrees are the one clear functional example, yes, and the rest - organisational structure (and appointment and internal electoral matters, and course creation) and legalities, the constituency and the clubs, are clear. I would add:

* coats of arms (and possibly other symbolic material)

* roles attached to one or the other entity, e.g. the Chancellorship and its deputies, Visitorships

On the most commonly encountered case, degrees, I think we can be firm - to all, for most purposes, these are Trinity degrees (those trying to insist on "Univ. of Dublin" just because it has "University" in it, can be disregarded), as the common name principle applies (and TCD is a university, despite all the fluffiness about UoD/DU). SeoR (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd support this too. Especially instead of Dublin University, which redirects to University of Dublin. There's a hatnote at University of Dublin for good reason: the potential confusion with UCD and DCU. Also, use of Trinity College Dublin in biographical articles is consistent with Category:Alumni of Trinity College Dublin, as Michael C. Latham is now. An interesting article is Francis O'Reilly: all three forms are used, as he was a graduate, chancellor and honorary degree recipient! Declangi (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, "DU" is a bit of an invention - if it's anything, it's "University of Dublin". But in the famous Reid judgment, the conclusion of the Master of the Rolls was pretty clear "...There was no separate incorporation of . If there had been, it must have been by Royal Charter ... There was no express creation of it apart from the College. The College had the power of electing the Chancellor and the other officers, and of defining and determining the conferring of degrees. The College was supreme, and the University was a branch or department of it, if indeed the College itself was not more acourately the University." So the whole University limited structure is really more of a Victorian confection put around the real ancient TCD. SeoR (talk) 09:35, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Did not know they had separate Arms. But on the law, I'll up the ante: the Acts of Union referenced this way, when it came to the 100 seats for Ireland at Westminster 'two for eaoh county in Ireland, two for the city of Dublin, two for the city of Cork, one for the University of Trinity College, and one for each of the most considerable cities, towns, and boroughs'. Aside from the wonderful vagueness, the giving of the same number of MPs to Dublin and Cork, and those in turn having just one more than, say, Portlaoise, or Trinity, it's a pretty telling description of the University, no?217.75.5.42 (talk) 09:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

And now that TUD is a thing... Wish Dublin had been more varied in its choice of letters. TCD, UCD, DCU, TUD, DU... at least BIMM, RCSI, and NCAD are distinct. Xx78900 (talk) 14:50, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

If we were to include it on the MOS:IRELAND page, should be put it in the biographical articles or the place names section? I would propose the text:

Unless the specific context requires, refer to Trinity College Dublin rather than the University of Dublin or Dublin University. It may be relevant to mention the university in the case of the Dublin University constituency, in the case of sports clubs which use Dublin University in their name, or a position specifically related to the university, such as Chancellor of the University of Dublin.

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)_Trinity_College_Dublin"> _Trinity_College_Dublin">

The text looks good. For placement, maybe the "Place names" section is preferable, because of the use of UoD/DU beyond biographical articles. Thanks, Declangi (talk) 22:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

With a cross-reference / cross-link at bios. SeoR (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, following this I've edited those pages that relate to education or employment to mention TCD only. I didn't edit references to honorary degrees, I'm somewhat neutral on what the better style is, although I could see a case on the basis of familiarity to refer to TCD only. But they're less relevant to biography in any case, being more of a footnote to someone's career. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)_Trinity_College_Dublin"> _Trinity_College_Dublin">

Great; thanks! I’d leave the hon. degrees; AFAIK, while the two bodies may be one for most people, and the courts, insofar as there is a separation, the University entities do have a special role in those degrees. SeoR (talk) 11:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Corran Purdon ‎and Derry

Is "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" consistent with the naming convention on the city or an attempt to circumvent it? Kathleen's bike (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

In normal circumstances I'd say that's trying to circumvent it. It doesn't matter what they call it personally, otherwise we'd have this kind of things scattered all over the place for Derry, County Londonderry, heck even Northern Ireland. I don't think however a user called Leitrim Lad is necessary trying to circumvent specifically, but it's ultimately irrelevant information anyway whatever the article subject happened to call a place. Canterbury Tail talk 18:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

You might think a name like Leitrim Lad might suggest otherwise, but they have tried "Londonderry" followed by "Londonderry" followed by "Derry/Londonderry" followed by "Derry (Londonderry)" followed by "Derry (which he references as Londonderry in his autobiography)" which seems to demonstrate an unusually strong interest in the retention of the word in question. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

MOS:FLAGS discussion with regard to Ulster again

FYI – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Ulster Scots people#Why the flags? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)